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Why is CW broken in PVE?

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  • burkaancburkaanc Member Posts: 2,186 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    snotty wrote: »
    this thread much like all threads that focus on what class does/should do more damage makes me laugh so hard. Nerfs? Change dungeons? Buffs?

    No No No. If you really wanna see an end to these types of threads, the answer is simple. REMOVE THE SCORE BOARDS!

    Yep, its that simple, if no knows who did what damage then no one will care and thus, no more threads like this.

    Sanity, You are welcome.

    yeeees so how then we be able to get rid of dcs who are healing less than cleric companion(and not doing anything else for that matter) dps that do less dmg than clerics etc ppl who are dead weight in parties ? scorebords are necessary for evaluating performance.
    Paladin Master Race
  • hidahayabusahidahayabusa Member Posts: 634 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2013
    So you are saying that you need a scoreboard to identify slackers? I think you are exaggerating a bit. I mean, if I pull 4m damage in a given dungeon, and the first DPS pulls 6m damage...the run is fast, smooth and all is happy and there is a guy in full blues doing 1m damage...would you care?
    * Notorious Dwarven Bear Cavalry Leader *
  • morsitansmorsitans Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,284 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2013
    Yeah...if your DC is healing less than cleric companions, you don't need a scoreboard to spot that.

    And if you're using the scoreboard to monitor people for kickvotes, then you're a horrible person anyway.


    Having said all that, it CAN be useful as a quick check to see what everyone's likely to be doing (and/or how they're specced) but really, simply observing how they're playing, or (shock horror) actually asking them are also easy ways to ascertain this.
  • hidahayabusahidahayabusa Member Posts: 634 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2013
    Well, it's funny that people keep wondering why the parties for dungeons exclude certain classes and why the queue system is broken.

    I mean, you are never going to see a lf DPS GWF in the lfg channel which means that a freshly 60 GWF that wants to go destroyer, either needs to wait for 1h before getting kicked for low performance or just find AD somehow to trick his way into groups.


    (Unless it's THAT GWF in the previous posts ofc)
    * Notorious Dwarven Bear Cavalry Leader *
  • burkaancburkaanc Member Posts: 2,186 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    if its a guildie i can help him with his spec, if its a pug i wont invite him again

    and its a way to make ppl put their money where their mouth is

    and i rarely notice cleric not doing much since i dont really need them anymore, but other ppl might :P
    Paladin Master Race
  • kgl7kgl7 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Op needs to learn the game.

    Only Clerics and GFs cannot do the dps that both TR, GWF, HR and CW can do.
  • vortix44vortix44 Member Posts: 680 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2013
    Why is CW broken in PVE?
    I simply cannot understand how come

    I just cannot understand how "broken" can be used for over-powered.
    English is not my first language.
  • valetudo78valetudo78 Member Posts: 189 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Thats funny my gf out dps whole groups all the time. If a gf does his job right he is putting out alot of damage to as many mobs as possible. And for a gwf to out dps me is so rare it can be counted on one hand.
  • ott0madduxott0maddux Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 204 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2013
    nwnghost wrote: »
    That is actually more or less what I said. Except you don't seem to have understood my point that with sufficient control, the impact of having survivability is negligible, as a direct result of enemies being controlled.

    GWFs deal superior damage if there are 2-4 targets being fought at a time. CWs will deal more damage to a single target and 5+ targets. What hampers GWFs in dungeons is that there is a ton of mobs which greatly favors CWs as the majority of useful powers have no or a very high target cap.

    As an example, you would likely be able to complete Pirate King or Valindra's Tower (excluding Valindra fight) much faster and with greater ease with 3-4 CWs than you could with 3-4 GWFs.

    CW's control and damage powers are limited to five targets.
  • rortierortie Member Posts: 178 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2013
    I personally am less fussed by all this balance bruhaha and have no problems with Dev's making Wizards so offensively powerful.

    1) I am an old school RPGer and quite like a class that is hard to level and gets payoff later, if that's your thing.
    1a) CWs might warrant progression tweaking.

    2) My main is a DC, so I have no willy waving to do. Of all my characters my DC gets recruited fastest.
    2a) let supply and demand take care of things. If a DD needs a balanced group, but there are a zillion powergamer kiddies out here with CWs & TRs, I get recruited or slotted from a queue soon enough.

    3) Perhaps I am a-typical and my laissez faire attitude to balance is unusual, but I feel that there are more important things to worry about than a few k in damage here and there. Core business model, ZEN, WB and AH.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "Young people....." - Erik Lehnsherr
  • angrymanagementangrymanagement Member Posts: 487 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Pretty common to double the next closest DPS in a dungeon with my CW....then every once in a while a HR, GWF, or even TR show up that give me a run for the money. Consider GWFs can face tank, and TRs can stealth/ITC, and HRs can go full damage/cc immune from partial AP daily, and CWs only stay alive by dodging & using CC abilities in the attacks....
    If you think CW is so awesome (and it is when you know what your doing), go roll one & make it your main.

    Also: should note that TRs running Path of Blade, Blitz, Dazing Strike can put out very decent AOE damage when the mobs are grouped up....though I wouldn't really want a TR running this on a boss fight since TR & HR rule at single target damage.
  • kolatmasterkolatmaster Member Posts: 3,111 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    pandapaul wrote: »
    Trust me when I say this.. There are very very few GWFs that can match my dps... Yet CWs can do it without an issue..
    Trust you? You hail from an island prison of heathen criminals!

    (Note: Panda and I are in the same Guild, and this is just friendly banter! :cool:)
    va8Ru.gif
  • chemboy613chemboy613 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,521 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I found it hard to read through all of these posts.

    As someone who has every class but HR at LV 60, well geared, and cleared almost every instance i've seen a lot and watched the nerfs come.

    First of all - everyone needs to quit whining about paingiver. Who cares? team effectiveness is the most important measure of things in this game. There is a reason my CW carries a perfect terror (increase team DPS 25%) rather than a perfect vorpal (increase individual DPS 15%) - because I'm a team-first kinda guy.

    That said, the game developers think that every dungeon except maybe MC is best by throwing tons of trash mobs at us, lots and lots of monsters. In fights in MC where we are against big mobs say cyclops or totemists, then all of a sudden the fighters can tank, the rouge can damage and the CWs can control the little guy - this is why MC is such a great fighting dungeon because non-CWs are actually useful.

    That said the only way to efficently clear _anything_ else is to take at least 2CWs. This is not because other classes have no use - they have a use! - it's because 90% of the encoutners in this game are mobs of trash that need to be frozen/stunned/singed/burned/etc... Cw are the only class with any control.

    From what i've seen a similarly geared HR (of which there are very few), will out damage a CW in terms of AOE, a TR will out damage a CW in terms of single target, a GF can easily outtank a CW on a big single target (think king malabog), and any decently speced GWF will survive everything long past any class, but all these classes have abilities with low target limits and low control, so while they might excel against big mobs, if you have 10 redcaps running at you, you better hope your CW is good ^^

    So we basically run every dungeon with 2 CWs. I am fortune enough to run a guild where we have at least 20 well geared, well played, CWs, so it's easy to make groups.

    But we tested it, and with a few exceptions, the most efficient way to run anything is 5CW. You can just chain stun/freeze it all and kite the few things you can't, but i don't think this is a class balance issue, i think this is a game design issue, because the encounters tend to be like - throw 3-10 mobs at players, they do annoying things, but can be stunned - solution - make them stunned the whole time.

    And other party members want to get in a group, and even though I play CW most, i love playing other classes. However, anytime i take my CW the run is fast, smooth, and easy, and anytime i take anything else, it is slower and more difficult - of course the exception here is MC, maybe the golems in FH, or the flamespikes at magera, or the zombies at the aboleth, etc...

    Then if people say "well let's nerf CWs:" - they did! Since these nerfs have you tried to 1CW a dungeon? I did 1 CW in Spellplague with a GWF, a DC, and 2 HRs with perfect vorpals and while I did it it was a ton of work and a major headache - so the solution is we can only have 1HR and must have 2CW? seriously?

    A solution prposed is to nerf CW damage and increase CW control. That way you could have lots of control with less CW and take HR/GWF/TR to deal damage and that would be nice :D I'd like to play everything once in a while.
  • rortierortie Member Posts: 178 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2013
    Trust you? You hail from an island prison of heathen criminals!

    Doesn't iocaine powder come from there?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "Young people....." - Erik Lehnsherr
  • hidahayabusahidahayabusa Member Posts: 634 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2013
    chemboy613 wrote: »
    A solution prposed is to nerf CW damage and increase CW control. That way you could have lots of control with less CW and take HR/GWF/TR to deal damage and that would be nice :D I'd like to play everything once in a while.

    Spot on, but I'd just add something. There is a solution to the 'optimal party', but it's a tough one development-wise. It's designing boss fights that don't evolve around spawning millions of adds while someone stays on boss avoiding reds.

    CWs are as good as Arcane Singularity is 100% needed on ALL the dungeons in the game.
    * Notorious Dwarven Bear Cavalry Leader *
  • kgl7kgl7 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Trust you? You hail from an island prison of heathen criminals!

    (Note: Panda and I are in the same Guild, and this is just friendly banter! :cool:)

    Shameless banter! You would never trust a panda! :P
  • mconosrepmconosrep Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    chemboy613 wrote: »
    A solution prposed is to nerf CW damage and increase CW control. That way you could have lots of control with less CW and take HR/GWF/TR to deal damage and that would be nice :D I'd like to play everything once in a while.

    Even better boost CW control, while reducing CW damage or increasing other classes damage.

    This way you only need a single CW can 'control' the mobs and taking a second (or third or forth) won't always be the best idea since other classes would do more damage and help so clear dungeons faster.

    Sure every dungeon run would still need one CW (unless players massively out-gear it), but at least this would reduce the current trend of "LFG 2/3/4 CW & DC".....
  • nwnghostnwnghost Member, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    chemboy613 wrote: »
    A solution prposed is to nerf CW damage and increase CW control. That way you could have lots of control with less CW and take HR/GWF/TR to deal damage and that would be nice :D I'd like to play everything once in a while.

    This is exactly what I've been saying over the last few pages, but apparently there are some CW players who will argue nail and tooth against it because they won't be the most asked for class in the game anymore and what not.

    And of course unfortunately, many patches have gone by which left CW damage intact but reduced Control instead, which led to people just wanting more CWs.

    Buff Control, nerf Damage and people will only want 1 CW, rarely 2 CW per group, unless they want to be extra safe and extra slow. And there will be a lot fewer "kick him, he's not a CW!" or "GG, not enough CW in group /quit" going on.
  • mconosrepmconosrep Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    nwnghost wrote: »
    This is exactly what I've been saying over the last few pages, but apparently there are some CW players who will argue nail and tooth against it because they won't be the most asked for class in the game anymore and what not.

    And of course unfortunately, many patches have gone by which left CW damage intact but reduced Control instead, which led to people just wanting more CWs.

    Buff Control, nerf Damage and people will only want 1 CW, rarely 2 CW per group, unless they want to be extra safe and extra slow. And there will be a lot fewer "kick him, he's not a CW!" or "GG, not enough CW in group /quit" going on.

    Even with this change CW will be the most requested class in the game as every dungeon will want at least one, it should just stop them being stacked 3 or even 4 to a group.

    This change would even help them in PvP -they get less kills but are much more useful in team fights.
  • knightfalzknightfalz Member Posts: 1,261 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    krinaman wrote: »
    Except that screws those of us who spent months and millions of AD building a CW

    It wouldn't be the first time such a thing happened. They may not do this though. Instead they could make a mage that does even more damage but has no control at all, while still having low hit points.

    Such a combat mage may have to end out relying on team mates to keep him safe enough from all the attention he would generate with his attacks, with his enemies otherwise free to strike him directly.
  • pers3phonepers3phone Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    knightfalz wrote: »
    Such a combat mage may have to end out relying on team mates to keep him safe enough from all the attention he would generate with his attacks, with his enemies otherwise free to strike him directly.

    We DO rely on team mates already as a CW :\

    You are confusing CWs with perma-TRs who are able to SOLO almost all bosses in the game, including 3/4 Castle Never, without ever needing ANYBODY else.

    CWs depend on party members 100%. 3 dodges are NOT enough to solo even most trash in epics.

    I see you guys are still at the nerf CW stage, while completely ignoring posts about dungeon design failures which allow the formation of 3 CWs parties.

    To me this is more and more starting to look like a "I have built my char for PvP and don't do as much DPS as the CW/I have lame gear but the perfect vorpal CW outdps me" type of thing.

    You are also ignoring the fact that even the best CWs out there are STILL outdps by pro GWFs and that HRs have all the potential in the world to at least the same damage.

    Stop ignoring the proposed solutions for dungeons. And stop complaining that you don't deal enough damage if you're not a TR, a class that should do with some AoE damage capabilities - or even better, with a dungeon redesign with immune to magic tough mobs, so the TR would be on top of their game.
  • inquisitorrahlinquisitorrahl Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    CW players aren't fighting tooth and nail because they want to be sought after, they want their class to work. If you nerfed their damage they would suffer in PvP more than they already sometimes do. Buff control? Why? So I can have another .5 seconds my entangling grasp in PvP while I tickle them with damage?

    And you want to BUFF damage of other classes? Are you insane? HR's and TR's are already dropping bombs, they don't need more.

    Change the dungeons, not the classes. Less trash, more single target fights to let the other classes shine better. More control immune monsters requiring classes that can tank/kite.

    High AoE damage is just really...not a good way to judge the state of a class. Sounds like a dungeon problem, not a class problem. Also you always have to think of how changes would affect the class in ALL aspects of the game, not just dungeons.
    Father McGruder - Scrub geared DPS DC - I kick HAMSTER for the Lord!

    Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
  • spellwardenspellwarden Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 357 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2013
    /signed for more interesting dungeons. Currently it is booring being a mage. I would love a single target mage. But currently it is all about wreaking that one group of mobs tight-packed with all my high to no cap aoe spells without having to die once.

    *shrugs* Sorry what? I just woke up from imaginary land where CW arent constantly fighting fragmented mobs because PuGs dont understand cooperation, where my shards miss because GF decide to shield-bash just for the fun of it. And where TR never NEVER manages to create advantage (fighting head on) so I have to teleport around so that we can kill the mobs faster.

    In addition, people position themselves so I constantly get knocked from behind when I aoe, stealing aggro, and have to teleport far away and not do dmg since I need to wait for the one thing that saves me in PuGs (soulforged).

    The players where what really drove me mad after release, and while it has gotten better. Pugging still sucks. I just wish I could find a scandinavian guild with some form of microphones.
  • krinamankrinaman Member Posts: 129 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2013
    nwnghost wrote: »
    but apparently there are some CW players who will argue nail and tooth against it because they won't be the most asked for class in the game anymore and what not.

    Or we spent months, countless hours, millions in AD, and in many cases real life money building a CW because they are the AOE nuker class that is SUPPOSED to top the DPS charts and don't want to see our class turned into a boring CC bot. How about you roll a CW instead of expecting me to reroll?
  • mconosrepmconosrep Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    krinaman wrote: »
    Or we spent months, countless hours, millions in AD, and in many cases real life money building a CW because they are the AOE nuker class that is SUPPOSED to top the DPS charts

    Odd - I thought CWs were meant to be the best at controlling mobs and didn't realise they were meant to be best at AOE DPS in addition to that...
  • burkaancburkaanc Member Posts: 2,186 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    CW players aren't fighting tooth and nail because they want to be sought after, they want their class to work. If you nerfed their damage they would suffer in PvP more than they already sometimes do. Buff control? Why? So I can have another .5 seconds my entangling grasp in PvP while I tickle them with damage?

    And you want to BUFF damage of other classes? Are you insane? HR's and TR's are already dropping bombs, they don't need more.

    Change the dungeons, not the classes. Less trash, more single target fights to let the other classes shine better. More control immune monsters requiring classes that can tank/kite.

    High AoE damage is just really...not a good way to judge the state of a class. Sounds like a dungeon problem, not a class problem. Also you always have to think of how changes would affect the class in ALL aspects of the game, not just dungeons.

    i guess u have not a ffn clue where cw dps comes from, learnt to play your class

    Malevolent Surge - huge for pve, not needed in pvp - up to 30% dmg bonus
    Frozen Power Transfer - huge for pve, not needed in pvp - up to 25% dmg bonus

    both of them do close to nothing for pvp
    Paladin Master Race
  • spellwardenspellwarden Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 357 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2013
    I agree, we should change the name from Control-wizard to Freedom-wizard Dps. FWD for short.
  • kidbskidbs Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 294
    edited December 2013
    mconosrep wrote: »
    Odd - I thought CWs were meant to be the best at controlling mobs and didn't realise they were meant to be best at AOE DPS in addition to that...

    Yet GWFs think they should be tanks and the best AoE damage. Gotta love hypocrites.
  • inquisitorrahlinquisitorrahl Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    burkaanc wrote: »
    i guess u have not a ffn clue where cw dps comes from, learnt to play your class

    Malevolent Surge - huge for pve, not needed in pvp - up to 30% dmg bonus
    Frozen Power Transfer - huge for pve, not needed in pvp - up to 25% dmg bonus

    both of them do close to nothing for pvp

    I don't do end level dungeons yet you're right, but the complaint I read is over and over again "CW's are needed to clear all the constant trash. No one can top their AoE blah blah blah."

    Solution is to change dungeons, not the class.

    Warlocks and Hunters in WoW can hit over a million DPS on trash now, but no one calls them OP because Blizzard designed boss fights to have smaller amounts of adds or no adds at all so that classes can do comparable DPS when it counts. There's always fights that slightly favor one class/spec over another but overall it's not a big deal.

    Dungeon changes. You want DUNGEON changes.
    Father McGruder - Scrub geared DPS DC - I kick HAMSTER for the Lord!

    Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
  • pointsmanpointsman Member Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    mconosrep wrote: »
    Odd - I thought CWs were meant to be the best at controlling mobs and didn't realise they were meant to be best at AOE DPS in addition to that...

    A dead mob is quite controlled.
This discussion has been closed.