Blacksheep's Green weapon power!!

donblacksheep · November 2013

Hey there.

Some friends asked me for it, and here it go.

Since a very long time ago i was trying to find something different from that old vorpal that 99% of the TR's use. I tried with Perfect Terror, its cool, just not good enough.
Then on the last weeks now i decided to try something new that nobody really ever used on a effective way (at least no good PvP TR), and i found something great, the green power, Perfect Bilethorn!

Yes, Bilethorn! I really enjoyed it more than anything else, extremly effective and fun to use, stronger than vorpal for almost everything. You cant really do high crits on the best tanky guys like GWF/GF/DC with a vorpal anyway (i really mean "on the best tanky", not random guys), and with my bilethorn and as i duelist flurry a lot i can do a significant high damage even with my 35k life/1.8k regen ticks super long stealth build

Did a video using it, not against pugs, but on a match with the strongest pvp guilds on the game, Enemy Team VS Lemonade Stand.

Enjoy.

Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTPCRqK7wxo

Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIlSr9EFPuo&feature=c4-overview&list=UUh0EE-ieLOkH-GUvEH3uFgg

Thanks,
Blacksheep.
_____

spicen · November 2013

This was discovered months ago by various top-end TRs.. (yes, pvp because it isn't viable for pve). Don't try to claim credit on something that you didn't discover. I think even @todesfaelle mentioned him using this for pvp for over several months ago to counter those permastealths easily.

fondlez · November 2013

Yeah, sorry to burst your bubble Blacksheep. This is old.

It's had a recent renaissance when todesfaelle mentioned it in a thread about a month ago. Now every other PvP match, my poor CW is getting those horrible lingering spell animations and noises while mounting up due to Bilethorn TRs, instead of usual the usual GWF Crescendo (can't believe this visual bug still exists since closed beta, lol).

Thanks for the vids though!

spicen · November 2013

fondlez wrote: »

Yeah, sorry to burst your bubble Blacksheep. This is old.

It's had a recent renaissance when todesfaelle mentioned it in a thread about a month ago. Now every other PvP match, my poor CW is getting those horrible lingering spell animations and noises while mounting up due to Bilethorn TRs, instead of usual the usual GWF Crescendo (can't believe this visual bug still exists since closed beta, lol).

Thanks for the vids though!

Agreed, nice videos. I didn't know bilethorns effects also linger. I bet it's annoying! As a user myself I like the visual but the sound it makes isn't very pleasant, lol

I've had gwf crescendo and tr CoS(sound only and only vorpal users) linger on myself.

donblacksheep · November 2013

I pvp many hours per day, everyday, i know pretty much all the top pvp players, never saw any TR using it before me, its popular now days, because of me. After premades had big problems figthing me using it, now you can see bilethorns everywhere, and it was extremly rare a month ago.

I dont use bilethorn to counter TR's, only stupid Tr's will get fu**ed by it lol, all you need to do is change one of your passives.

I am 100% sure that what i use here is unique, whoever that you are talking about i doubt its a 35k life/1.8k regen ticks tene's TR since i am the only one with those numbers

As you can see on the video i burn down a top tier sent GWF easly way faster than vorpal would do, cant even compare, lol.
Good luck trying to have the survivability that i have while still doing so much damage on other way :P

The only thing that vorpal can be better at is killing fast Cw's, and doing shocking exec at 60% life and killing with the lucky crits.

PS: Soon or later someone will say "your build and tenes will be nerfed", yea, then i will switch to my full r10 gears that is sitting on my bank, and do the same thing as i am doing now, or tbh, i will maybe use the same enchants as now, since it will be so easy to get extra stats with the boons and artifacts, tenes will still be tenes.

spicen · November 2013

donblacksheep wrote: »

I pvp many hours per day, everyday, i know pretty much all the top pvp players, never saw any TR using it before me, its popular now days, because of me. After premades had big problems figthing me using it, now you can see bilethorns everywhere, and it was extremly rare a month ago.

I dont use bilethorn to counter TR's, only stupid Tr's will get fu**ed by it lol, all you need to do is change one of your passives.

I am 100% sure that what i use here is unique, whoever that you are talking about i doubt its a 35k life/1.8k regen ticks tene's TR since i am the only one with those numbers (snip) tenes will still be tenes.

I'm sure your stats are unique. On the other hand, your choices are not. As I said Bilethorn was used long time ago before you in pvp, I've seen over 33k trs with massive regen aswell. Nothing special. Also about destroying sent gwfs, I wonder how you would counter briartwine using tene-sent? And who has said anything about vorpal being better? These are just different choices and opinions and sometimes vorpal fits better a different playstyle. I use bilethorn myself because it's fits my playstyle better than vorpal. Also about tenes being tenes, you will do ****ty dmg without decent amount of arp after mod 2 with those. Trs used those only in the first place because they ignored DR and deflect etc. After mod 2 you wont be burning down those sent gwfs at all if you're equipped with many g-tenes and only have around 2k arp (like I see most TRs with tenes do have). Maybe tenes can be good if you only use those in 2-3 offense slots and stack arp on other slots.

pers3phone · November 2013

Hmm so much hate in a rather neutral topic. I've only seen this Bilethorn enchant in the last 3-4 weeks, doesn't matter who "discovered" it, all enchants are there in the game to be used, some more popular than others. Most TRs still have Vorpals, there's little to no difference for my CW, both do humongous damage. Nice videos, thanks

No sound at all for me tho'

godlysoul1 · November 2013

It seems to be a common trend now that whenever someone posts a new idea, everyone jumps out and says "Oh, this is totally old news. Yeah, you can't take credit for this, everyone already knew this." Yet, no one has been using this. It is ridiculous and needs to stop. I pvp all the time and never run into people using this. I'm not doing any premades vs premades, but when I am checking out premades or just people I know are in top pvp guilds that I run into pugging, no one has been using this. This is a very interesting idea though. I think rogues will start switching to more damage based enchants over vorpals as there seems to be a small but continuing increase in tanks. The next module update will surely bring more gwf's in shadowmantle as well, and this is a good way to help take them down.

fondlez · November 2013

godlysoul1 wrote: »

It seems to be a common trend now that whenever someone posts a new idea, everyone jumps out and says "Oh, this is totally old news. Yeah, you can't take credit for this, everyone already knew this." Yet, no one has been using this. It is ridiculous and needs to stop. I pvp all the time and never run into people using this. I'm not doing any premades vs premades, but when I am checking out premades or just people I know are in top pvp guilds that I run into pugging, no one has been using this. This is a very interesting idea though. I think rogues will start switching to more damage based enchants over vorpals as there seems to be a small but continuing increase in tanks. The next module update will surely bring more gwf's in shadowmantle as well, and this is a good way to help take them down.

Sorry, but this is ego. This game has been out for coming up to a year now. Many veteran players have seen many builds come and go, and some of them were done by extremely keen, first-mover theorycrafters during beta, not all of whom even published their findings in forums. There are plenty of old guides or traces of builds throughout the forums available by search, if you look for specific things.

A good example is the G.Tene-PoB-Regen PvP TR build which has been known since beta by very few players, then popularized post-release by Lemonade Stand's Tymora on his Twitch feed for months. Blacksheep later changed his build (after the last set of TR nerfs to burst) to use exactly this build, right down to the Perfect Terror enhancement that Tymora used! At least he didn't have the audacity to claim that was new...

Here is at least one of the posts in question for Bilethorn, in this particular case: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?508371-Control-Lock-on-Stealth&p=6304411&viewfull=1#post6304411

Plus todesfaelle has had his stickied "Banelorne's Stealth-Based Executioner Build" guide with the Bilethorn entry for at least a month. This is far more likely to explain the now not uncommon presence of Bilethorn TRs than anything else...

Now the fact that Blacksheep is NOT perma and using Bilethorn with his G.Tenes and BiS gear IS something to talk about, and he could have done just that instead of making it out as if everything Bilethorn is his idea. Why are you surprised that others stepped in to say it is not so?

Just because YOU don't see something, does not mean it did not exist. That's one hell of a cognitive bias!

godlysoul1 · November 2013

Blacksheep already mentioned he isn't using it for the purpose of countering TRs, which was the only reason brought up in the forum post you linked. Plus, like you said, blacksheep is using a different setup instead of trying to permastealth with this.

The fact that someone has used it before doesn't mean it is old news. I'm sure every combination has been tried and used by someone somewhere before. It would be ridiculous to go with that basis for saying something isn't innovative when there are such few options to chose from. The fact that 99% of TRs haven't been using this enchant, and the fact that they haven't been using it with a setup like his makes it ridiculous to spam him with posts saying how terrible his is for "taking credit" for it. No where in his words did I see him say "I am responsible for discovering and implementing this key component to completely revolutionize this game" like everyone is trying to act like he did. He is just excited he found something new and is sharing it with us so that others can be aware there are more options out there.

I am interested to see how this setup would work if path of blade was switched out for impact shot. I've seen vids of him using it switched out before, but now it should do more damage and help with keeping poison up since vorpal would have no effect on it previously as it doesn't crit. Also if it helps activate tenes, that'd be another bonus.

spicen · November 2013

godlysoul1 wrote: »

Blacksheep already mentioned he isn't using it for the purpose of countering TRs, which was the only reason brought up in the forum post you linked. Plus, like you said, blacksheep is using a different setup instead of trying to permastealth with this.

The fact that someone has used it before doesn't mean it is old news. I'm sure every combination has been tried and used by someone somewhere before. It would be ridiculous to go with that basis for saying something isn't innovative when there are such few options to chose from. The fact that 99% of TRs haven't been using this enchant, and the fact that they haven't been using it with a setup like his makes it ridiculous to spam him with posts saying how terrible his is for "taking credit" for it. No where in his words did I see him say "I am responsible for discovering and implementing this key component to completely revolutionize this game" like everyone is trying to act like he did. He is just excited he found something new and is sharing it with us so that others can be aware there are more options out there.

I am interested to see how this setup would work if path of blade was switched out for impact shot. I've seen vids of him using it switched out before, but now it should do more damage and help with keeping poison up since vorpal would have no effect on it previously as it doesn't crit. Also if it helps activate tenes, that'd be another bonus.

I started using bilethorn about few weeks back when i met 2 lemonade stand trs in pvp and got destroyed by them, few days later I ran into enemy team-premade, they had Revrac and Blacksheep. Revrac was using bilethorn, Blacksheep vorpal. As for the impact shot, I use itc, is and ss setup. Works quite well with bilethorn imo, the most benefit you can gain from bilethorn is with duelists flurry which I like to use alot. Path of the Blade doesn't proc weapon enchants so it's not so beneficial if you aren't rocking tenes(which can be procced by potb). This is why I hope they would fix path of the blade to be able to score crits, proc weapon enchants and would be affected by arp, DR and deflect.

omuhao · November 2013

godlysoul1 wrote: »

Blacksheep already mentioned he isn't using it for the purpose of countering TRs, which was the only reason brought up in the forum post you linked. Plus, like you said, blacksheep is using a different setup instead of trying to permastealth with this.

The fact that someone has used it before doesn't mean it is old news. I'm sure every combination has been tried and used by someone somewhere before. It would be ridiculous to go with that basis for saying something isn't innovative when there are such few options to chose from. The fact that 99% of TRs haven't been using this enchant, and the fact that they haven't been using it with a setup like his makes it ridiculous to spam him with posts saying how terrible his is for "taking credit" for it. No where in his words did I see him say "I am responsible for discovering and implementing this key component to completely revolutionize this game" like everyone is trying to act like he did. He is just excited he found something new and is sharing it with us so that others can be aware there are more options out there.

I am interested to see how this setup would work if path of blade was switched out for impact shot. I've seen vids of him using it switched out before, but now it should do more damage and help with keeping poison up since vorpal would have no effect on it previously as it doesn't crit. Also if it helps activate tenes, that'd be another bonus.

I saw him saying it here:

donblacksheep wrote: »

I pvp many hours per day, everyday, i know pretty much all the top pvp players, never saw any TR using it before me, its popular now days, because of me. After premades had big problems figthing me using it, now you can see bilethorns everywhere, and it was extremly rare a month ago.

Anyway it is as it is some other players have been using it and i wanted to get one too when i have the needed AD after i have build my char with the needed equipment since poison is that what it is meant to lower those regen ticks a bit and i can imagine it working great with the new Whisperknife path.

Good luck to you donblacksheep with it nice to see when someone is enjoying what he/she is playing, or maybe you will still change to the HR when he comes out and ditch ur TR...!?

godlysoul1 · November 2013

Yeah, his comment was a bit out of line in that post. I only reviewed the initial post again. Either way, who is to say that it didn't gain popularity because of him? I'm sure many people tend to take ideas from the top players and blacksheep is definitely one of the best. Regardless of the fact if he was first or not, I'm sure just by him using it (along with any other top player) would've helped sparked it into becoming more popular recently if it really has gained some popularity. No one can claim or disprove it, so it is meaningless to argue as to whether or not he did or didn't popularize it alone, but I would say that just him using it would've helped make it more popular regardless. This happens any time top players use something different. It just disappoints me to see so many people posting hateful comments when in his initial post you could tell he was just excited to share that he found something new he liked.

Can't we just all be friends?

omuhao · November 2013

That is what i wrote in the end it does not matter if you were the first who found it or not as long as you enjoy it

Having fun playing is what matters we all use something other found out it is the only way to get better if you learn from your own and other mistakes and try to make it all better we should not war outside of the PVP arena...

sveta0 · November 2013

fondlez wrote: »

This game has been out for coming up to a year now. Many veteran players have seen many builds come and go, and some of them were done by extremely keen, first-mover theorycrafters during beta, not all of whom even published their findings in forums. There are plenty of old guides or traces of builds throughout the forums available by search, if you look for specific things.

One of the most honest posts this forum has ever seen.

donblacksheep · November 2013

Lol, mad people around.

Once again, i PvP'ed ALOT since the server merge, i did premades against ALL the guilds, i never met a bilethorn TR before of me.
If one day someone used it, ok cool, i believe, but i will say again what i said before, noone of the top tr's > NOW DAYS < was using bilethorn.

Maybe i chose the wrong words to express my idea, but 100% sure it got way more popular now days after i start using it and my guild mates start using it after they see how i was rockin with it.

My build, gear, setup with the bilethorn is unique yes, why you hate me for that?
Enemy Team TR's only use bilethorn because of me (go and ask them 1 by 1), and tbh one of the main reasons i bought it, was because i was using the stag mount and my set was all dyed to green, with barkshield, and i saw the green wep enchant for 3.5m on the AH and i bought it to look cool LOL, and it end up being extremly strong.

@omuhao
"ditch my tr" ? Sorry to dissapoint you, but thats not going to happen, I am a good player and i will do the necessary changes to stay on top, they nerfed my original Lashing Blade lurkers build, i changed 100% and got back to the top, as you can see on my youtube channel, i will do it again, dont worry.
And I will have a ranger maxed out too ;p

Sadly POTB is not working as intended, you dont get the weapon enchant working on the POTB ticks, and the CM's posted on a thread about it that potb was suposed to crit as well.. If one day potb gets weapon enchant to work on it, plus it crits, so this game is over :O will be only potb around lol.

Potb is still great, but only for 1v1's, if you have 2 targets or more its useless because its shares the damage between them, and end up doing nothing, but ill see if i can do a video for you with bilethorn and potb, i tried it already, its so troll and funny, tons of numbers from it + bilethorn + Duelist flurry.

Stop posting with so much hate on my thread, Can't we just all be friends?

+1

mechcount · November 2013

PvP on Neverwinter - totally serious business.

"Discovering" something here is like "Discovering" that using a fork makes dunking oreos easy.

godlysoul1 · November 2013

Have you or has anyone tried lifedrinker with this type of hp/regen based build? (Not necessarily tene based) Seems like you tank enough for it to be effective and have just as much rapid fire to use it for heals if not more than a gwf would.

manholio · November 2013

mechcount wrote: »

PvP on Neverwinter - totally serious business.

"Discovering" something here is like "Discovering" that using a fork makes dunking oreos easy.

You fork Oreos? That ain't right.

munkey81 · November 2013

I've fought every one of the best TR's in this game , some more than others. I've fought
Black with his previous build, and recently with this new one. So far I'm not at all impressed honestly guys. Black, you were a harder fight for me 1 vs 1 with your last build.

We have a fire trs in EoA also using it and did some in house practice. Am I missing something here guys? It looks cool, other than that against me it's been less than useless in every single 1 vs 1 I've had against it.

esteena · November 2013

munkey81 wrote: »

We have a fire trs in EoA also using it and did some in house practice. Am I missing something here guys? It looks cool, other than that against me it's been less than useless in every single 1 vs 1 I've had against it.

He isn't perma stealth thats why.

When you aren't perma, vorpal is better. But if you are perma... then your rotation is usually shadow strike.. Bait and switch and ItC with gloaming cut and CoS as At-wills.

So basically your only source of damage is coming from gloaming cut and CoS...so having vorpal on these isn't that big of a damage boost. That's why i have seen permas using plague fire or bilethorn for the DoTs...since they can't be seen anyways.

munkey81 · November 2013

esteena wrote: »

He isn't perma stealth thats why.

When you aren't perma, vorpal is better. But if you are perma... then your rotation is usually shadow strike.. Bait and switch and ItC with gloaming cut and CoS as At-wills.

So basically your only source of damage is coming from gloaming cut and CoS...so having vorpal on these isn't that big of a damage boost. That's why i have seen permas using plague fire or bilethorn for the DoTs...since they can't be seen anyways.

Yah I get that. But those dots, when I fought Black, at max those biles hit for 169. Yes I know they continually stack, but in our fights together, as well as with the rest of the trs I fought using it, it was all the same. No crazy awesome damage that
Surprised me. What surprised me was the lack of damage. I keep hearing about this bile, even tested a perfect out on ptr. I'm not impressed, and I'm glad you guys are using it cuz you are all getting easier to fight

esteena · November 2013

donblacksheep wrote: »

Hey there.

Some friends asked me for it, and here it go.

Since a very long time ago i was trying to find something different from that old vorpal that 99% of the TR's use. I tried with Perfect Terror, its cool, just not good enough.
Then on the last weeks now i decided to try something new that nobody really ever used on a effective way (at least no good PvP TR), and i found something great, the green power, Perfect Bilethorn!

Yes, Bilethorn! I really enjoyed it more than anything else, extremly effective and fun to use, stronger than vorpal for almost everything. You cant really do high crits on the best tanky guys like GWF/GF/DC with a vorpal anyway (i really mean "on the best tanky", not random guys), and with my bilethorn and as i duelist flurry a lot i can do a significant high damage even with my 35k life/1.8k regen ticks super long stealth build

Did a video using it, not against pugs, but on a match with the strongest pvp guilds on the game, Enemy Team VS Lemonade Stand.

Enjoy.

Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTPCRqK7wxo

Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIlSr9EFPuo&feature=c4-overview&list=UUh0EE-ieLOkH-GUvEH3uFgg

Thanks,
Blacksheep.

Plague fire is getting fixed, wouldn't it be better than bilethorn?

it is a straight 9% damage boost not to mention the fast ticking dots.

hidahayabusa · November 2013

esteena wrote: »

Plague fire is getting fixed, wouldn't it be better than bilethorn?

it is a straight 9% damage boost not to mention the fast ticking dots.

+ the one dagger throw dismount

ikeepit3hunna · November 2013

bilethorn+duelist = GG. plague will be decent aswell tho

munkey81 · November 2013

ikeepit3hunna wrote: »

bilethorn+duelist = GG. plague will be decent aswell tho

I still have yet to see the effectiveness of it....

Looking through the logs fighting Black, at best it was 169. But even overall, the damage just didn't add up.

Most of the hits were in the range of (1)to (56), and spread out quite a ways. My regen was ticking 3x as fast as the bilethorn dots.

I tested it against an inhouse TR with PBile as well, allowing 2 rotations of DF and Bile to stack...little bit more consistant, but still not the damage I keep hearing about.

Black made a helluva point that using Vorpal, against well built tanky types kind of negates itself anyway, because the crits are so small. But most of those GWF/GF tanky types have more regen then I do, and they'll regen most of that damage anyway. Unless they are extremely bad at avoiding DF. So a small 2k crit, is still better then 1 DF/Bile proc by far.

I'm curious to see some parses and combat footage using Bile and Tenes when the changes go live.

ikeepit3hunna · November 2013

munkey81 wrote: »

I still have yet to see the effectiveness of it....

Looking through the logs fighting Black, at best it was 169. But even overall, the damage just didn't add up.

Most of the hits were in the range of (1)to (56), and spread out quite a ways. My regen was ticking 3x as fast as the bilethorn dots.

I tested it against an inhouse TR with PBile as well, allowing 2 rotations of DF and Bile to stack...little bit more consistant, but still not the damage I keep hearing about.

Black made a helluva point that using Vorpal, against well built tanky types kind of negates itself anyway, because the crits are so small. But most of those GWF/GF tanky types have more regen then I do, and they'll regen most of that damage anyway. Unless they are extremely bad at avoiding DF. So a small 2k crit, is still better then 1 DF/Bile proc by far.

I'm curious to see some parses and combat footage using Bile and Tenes when the changes go live.

bilethorn negates stealth and block though, dismounts in 2 daggers, and it gives a bilethorn tick PER hit. so in duelist it procs a large burst of damage almost like a second duelist 4 seconds later. this shreads anything it touches, even gwfs

munkey81 · November 2013

ikeepit3hunna wrote: »

bilethorn negates stealth and block though, dismounts in 2 daggers, and it gives a bilethorn tick PER hit. so in duelist it procs a large burst of damage almost like a second duelist 4 seconds later. this shreads anything it touches, even gwfs

No no..I agree with ya. It definitely has some nice features to using it, like tearing down stealth and block, dismounting, and the fact that it continually stacks. But from what I've seen I just am not seeing the same results against me, that you guys are saying.

The biggest I seen from it, was when I allowed a guildmate with pbile to stack 2 DF on me back to back, which only brought me to 80% health, and a better one(from dm crit) to 60%. But in a 1 vs 1 fight, theres no way you can continually stack DF back to back to back against a skilled player, you and I both know that.

Watching Black fight Pwn and Yolandi, same difference, all his Bile hits were very very small, very spread out, and they regen'd much more back then Bile took away.

I'll do some more testing on my own, but the TR's that I fought using Bile, did far less damage then the ones using Pvorpal.

thesakari · November 2013

I don't see PBile as being a legitimate wep enchant for top tier pvp matches. When you are trying to burn down players with a DC present then every extra burst amount is needed. I could see its viability for 1v1s vs. other rogues when contesting points and whatnot for sustained dmg that makes the other tr nervous and screw up rotations but that's about it.

ikeepit3hunna · November 2013

Alysin we should set up some tr 1v1 matches to test enchants out, maybe vs gf too so we can see which is better overall

munkey81 · November 2013

ikeepit3hunna wrote: »

Alysin we should set up some tr 1v1 matches to test enchants out, maybe vs gf too so we can see which is better overall

I'd love too man. I'd like to get a bunch of us together honestly and do some testing. We do a lot of in house testing anyway, but its always good to test outside of the house as well.

I'd like to test the Bile on my character on PTR against a GWF as well. With my set up now, I can generally kill just about any GWF...(eventually). I wish I could remember this guys name, but hes a GWF from "Brotherhood of Irenicus"(sp?), tankiest GWF I've ever fought 1 vs 1, I could barely get him below 50% no matter how good I was playing, and he also did a ton of damage. I don't think I killed him once 1 vs 1. Had to call for help each time.

Maybe you know who I'm talking about? Pretty sure its the same guild Grapefrui3t is in. Excellent 5 man team

Blacksheep's Green weapon power!!

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