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Epic Mad Dragon Final Boss Strategy for PUGs
a9d2f
Member Posts: 63 Arc User
I have had very little success with Epic Mad Dragon in PUGs: in the 25+ runs I've had, I've only had 4 successful completions. I'd like to discuss party composition, strategy, spells, as well as ask "is there a better way to complete this?" Most of the T2 dungeons I've run have higher success rates than this.
Please keep in mind that I'm discussing your average PUG, not an uber-elite guild where everyone has 14k+ GS and runs T1s only because they're bored with CN ring farming. Thanks.
Party Composition. Here are the successful parties I've had so far:
1) 2 dcs, 1 gf, 1 tr, and a cw (me). This was by far the easiest completion I've had but also very slow. The main problem with this is you almost never get 2 dcs in a PUG.
2) 1 dc, 1 gf, 1 tr, and 2 cws. Pretty standard queue group for this quest. Everyone was well geared and experienced.
3) 1 dc, 1 gf, 3 cws. This was an interesting group: we burned through the dungeon in record time, but the last boss fight was very difficult.
4) party composition didn't matter, we used a glitch to finish. Not fun and not reliable.
If you were creating a party from scratch for this dungeon, what would you bring?
Strategy for your typical PUG, 1 dc, 1 gf, 1 tr, 2 cws:
Tank Group: keeps boss busy, DPS boss.
GF: tries to keep dragon facing wall to minimize red areas.
1 CW: Unless the tank is very experienced, he/she will probably need a cw to run with them to keep the ads off and dps the boss. At 3/4 health, CW leaves tank and helps kill the additional wave of ads, then rejoins tank. At 1/4 health, leaves tank to kill devils and imps, then goes back to help tank.
Support Group: keeps tank group healed, takes care of additional ads.
DC: does whatever DCs do.
Other CW: sticks like glue to DC. Most important role is keep the DC alive. Also, kills or CCs ads and helps line things up for the TR to DPS. Finally, drops a few dots on the boss if able.
TR: kill ads.
The 3/4 mark wave isn't bad, but the 1/4 mark wave is brutal. Those 3 erinyes are very difficult to kill together so back group tries to keep them aggro'd while front group finishes the boss. Is there a better strategy for your average PUG? Would you put the tr up front and leave the 2 cws in back?
Encounter spells for each cw role. Of course people have their own preferences, but I'm just wondering what you all use.
1) front cw: ray of enfeeblement + steal time + sudden storm + chill strike mastery (oppressor)/ice conduit mastery (thaum). RoE is very useful for keeping boss DPS up while you're evading attacks from the magi. Steal time is essential for when the tank runs into a group of imps, giving you time to kill them quickly while they're stunned with sudden storm + mastery spell.
2) back cw: steal time + sudden storm + icy terrain/shard + entangling force/conduit of ice/chill strike mastery. Icy terrain is helpful in slowing down ads and gives you some extra cc. Some youtube videos I've watched use shield, but I don't really see the benefit now that they nerfed the AP gain rate from it. Entangling force in mastery if you want maximum singularities, otherwise conduit/chill strike.
Constructive comments/feedback welcome.
Please keep in mind that I'm discussing your average PUG, not an uber-elite guild where everyone has 14k+ GS and runs T1s only because they're bored with CN ring farming. Thanks.
Party Composition. Here are the successful parties I've had so far:
1) 2 dcs, 1 gf, 1 tr, and a cw (me). This was by far the easiest completion I've had but also very slow. The main problem with this is you almost never get 2 dcs in a PUG.
2) 1 dc, 1 gf, 1 tr, and 2 cws. Pretty standard queue group for this quest. Everyone was well geared and experienced.
3) 1 dc, 1 gf, 3 cws. This was an interesting group: we burned through the dungeon in record time, but the last boss fight was very difficult.
4) party composition didn't matter, we used a glitch to finish. Not fun and not reliable.
If you were creating a party from scratch for this dungeon, what would you bring?
Strategy for your typical PUG, 1 dc, 1 gf, 1 tr, 2 cws:
Tank Group: keeps boss busy, DPS boss.
GF: tries to keep dragon facing wall to minimize red areas.
1 CW: Unless the tank is very experienced, he/she will probably need a cw to run with them to keep the ads off and dps the boss. At 3/4 health, CW leaves tank and helps kill the additional wave of ads, then rejoins tank. At 1/4 health, leaves tank to kill devils and imps, then goes back to help tank.
Support Group: keeps tank group healed, takes care of additional ads.
DC: does whatever DCs do.
Other CW: sticks like glue to DC. Most important role is keep the DC alive. Also, kills or CCs ads and helps line things up for the TR to DPS. Finally, drops a few dots on the boss if able.
TR: kill ads.
The 3/4 mark wave isn't bad, but the 1/4 mark wave is brutal. Those 3 erinyes are very difficult to kill together so back group tries to keep them aggro'd while front group finishes the boss. Is there a better strategy for your average PUG? Would you put the tr up front and leave the 2 cws in back?
Encounter spells for each cw role. Of course people have their own preferences, but I'm just wondering what you all use.
1) front cw: ray of enfeeblement + steal time + sudden storm + chill strike mastery (oppressor)/ice conduit mastery (thaum). RoE is very useful for keeping boss DPS up while you're evading attacks from the magi. Steal time is essential for when the tank runs into a group of imps, giving you time to kill them quickly while they're stunned with sudden storm + mastery spell.
2) back cw: steal time + sudden storm + icy terrain/shard + entangling force/conduit of ice/chill strike mastery. Icy terrain is helpful in slowing down ads and gives you some extra cc. Some youtube videos I've watched use shield, but I don't really see the benefit now that they nerfed the AP gain rate from it. Entangling force in mastery if you want maximum singularities, otherwise conduit/chill strike.
Constructive comments/feedback welcome.
Post edited by a9d2f on
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The strategy used to be, "separate adds from boss, TR tanks boss while the rest of the party handles adds," but for many dungeons, our guild has found it easier to forgo the TR altogether and just burn everything down in 1 spot with AoE.
This really only works with a tank that can actually tank, as in constantly managing threat, facing adds with red splats away from the party, and keeping Knight's Valor, Into the Fray and possibly Knight's Challenge up at all times while maintaining aggro.
Guess which class makes the parties unsuccessful?
Thanks devs, thanks.
Given enough time, my GF tactician can kill the dragon without aid, just takes a good 30 min, and have never completed it because pugs tend to die on the third round of adds leaving me all alone.
I have run this one a bunch trying to complete my T1 armor set, no dice yet; maybe some day I will get a group that can stay alive.
Secret for GF to win is to run like mad around the dragon.
Even trying to guard against the breath will only get you killed.
Imps are wimps, I use Enforced Threat and take them down to half health while running and then either whack them on the run our use Front-line charge to fish them off.
Slowing me down has never really been an issue, but maybe connection speed makes a difference .... you got to run as soon as the breath attack shows red. There is no getting a quick hit in before you start running and always run AT the dragon to one side, the side that hopefully doesn't have an aoe area up.
I feel ya. I have yet to complete this dungeon with a PUG group. Still trying to complete my tier set. Having DD at 10,11,or 12pm doesn't help much either, lol.
Not being able to guard against the breath attack seems ... wrong
I might start looking for a new guild, as mine doesn't run a lot of epic dungeons together...
Sometimes I cannot run at the split second the red circle appears. I might be in the middle of an attack animation. When that happens, I don't have time to run, and block does no good.
Not really fair. GWF's don't make parties unsuccessful - most GWF's aren't played very well and that makes them not enjoyable to have in a group. A well-equipped and played GWF is a tremendous asset.
GF must do adds, hold aggro and kite/kill. He can be really good at that, believe in him))
Boss itself (in any dungeon, Mad Dragon included) is easy. On the opposite, adds painfully bite you in the ***
So the main problem is add control. I had success with "1 DC, 1 GF, 1TR, 2CW" parties only. And the only tactics we were able to win with is "rogue on boss (don't die there, sh&t!), others burn mobs down ASAP".
So it's pretty much dps race (like ToS): take out all your ZOMG I'M FABULOUS PAINGIVER skills, passives and dailies.
A GWF instead of one CW is a good switch in this scheme. But sadly i rarely see those good GWFs who can maintain very high damage and stay alive.
And yeah, a useful tip for the whole MD dungeon - once you see Erinyes, next moment it must be cc/dead. No exceptions.
3 cws kill everything, tr kills boss. Dc puts down blue circles. Nobody stands in red.
Ya know I (a CW) was once PUGged into a 3 CW 1 TR 1 DC party (for Karrundax). I left before we got going because I didn't think we could do it without a tank. Can you do either of the first two bosses (legit) without a tank?
That's the general conventional wisdom based on how many people play/equip their GF's, particularly folks who build glass cannon PvP GF's that are built to kill other players provided the GF gets in the first hit. Depending on the spec and the player, it's not always true.
Always kill the healers first.
Step by step guide:
0. Communicate: before the fight, discuss the group with the plan. The plan is:
1. Aggro: no one hit the dragon except the GF/GWF/TR tank until it is at the wall.
2. Boss positioning: tank the boss on either the right or left wall with the boss facing the wall at all times to keep its aoe well away from the group.
- do not tank the boss near the door or on wall opposite because that is where Magus spawn.
- tank moves back and forth acoss the wall a LITTLE bit to avoid linear breath. Do not reposition to avoid the big circular aoe or knockback - it is weak against a tank and dodgeable by a TR.
3. Magus priority target: Magus spawns at back and front walls. Everyone should be near one of these spawn points to aggro and kill the Magus the instant it spawns. Rush to the opposite wall and kill the other Magus before it kills the tank. Ideally, if the dps are skilled enough, one dps should be at each spawn point to aggro and start killing both Magus until help arrives.
4. Keep the healer alive: Clerics and even CW's can take some punishment before dying but three or more imps are a dangerous threat to them. The priority is the Magus but as soon as she's dead, aoe down the imps before they take out your healer!
5. Extra adds: deal with the extra adds at 75% (Erinyes) and 30% (Pit Fiend/Shocktroop Devil) AFTER you kill the Magus! Nothing matters more than the Magus, unless its a Pit Fiend harassing the tank, in which case preferably a melee should take aggro and draw the Pit Fiend away.
The sign of a Mad Dragon fight going very well according to the above plan, is if the Cleric has to move very little from center of the room to drop a blue circle at the feet of the dps (typically CWs need it most) killing the Magus.
In between the Magus spawning, only then can the whole group dps the boss. Thus, the only players always attacking the boss are the tank and the Cleric to keep up Astral Seal (helping give top up heals to the tank).
The above method is the only reliable and almost completely gear-independent way to always kill the boss safely with minimum incoming damage. Slow but absolutely guaranteed. It is an easy, tankable boss and, outside of Malabog Castle, the closest to a traditional MMORPG boss encounter, e.g. in a game like WoW.
If you have multiple characters, the classes that are most likely to guarantee farming Epic Mad Dragon are being on your CW (because you can aggro both Magus across the room) or TR/dps GWF (because you can solo kill Magus). Having done this on all my characters, it is easy to tell that it only takes one good dps killing Magus the entire fight to guarantee killing this boss.
Tanking the Mad Dragon itself should be fairly trivial for any half competent melee player. GF's make sure to slot Fighter's Recovery if for some reason you are struggling (probably because you used Guard instead of moving during a breath!). Good GF's can tank this dragon on ANY gear and can even solo kill it in just pure dps gear.
I mean, seriously, if you're having PVP set on you - what are you doing in a dungeon? That what i would ask such a player before kicking him/leaving party. My GF has two sets (including all jewelry): one for PVP and one for PVE. (He even has two jewelry sets for PVE depending on how much arpen i need).
And for a T1?
At least his breath bug was fixed.
We tried it after finishing MC2/3. We did it after 2nd or 3rd try but poor GF who was after the T1 set shot multiple scrolls of life. So it was costly for him.
The CWs should controll/kill the Hellfire mages with entangled force. They must be killed/cc-ed on sight. Most of the death was because of them.
And watch for the two healer Erynes/Shocktroop Devil attack.
So again. Buy it or go for a gg pvp/T2 set instead.
Its too hard for a T1 pug.
It's not necessarily awful to be PvP specced in many part of the dungeon unless the playstyle is basically alpha-strike only - which fails in any dungeon. With a solid team a PvP specced GF can be an asset until you actually need someone to tank. Then you're a little hosed...
Stop playing like its a traditional diku mud and start treating it like the action mmo-lite that it is.
When i see GFs with too low arpen, i am disappointed. When i see GF using bull charge or indomitable strength, i immediately facepalm.
I don't even know what a "diku mud" is. This is the first MMO that I have played.
Take Epic PK as an example. (I'm referring to playing PK with a fairly average group of players, not some uber-elite super-duper-geared group.) A tank very much benefits me (as CW) there particularly with final boss as the adds can get out of control because there are just so many of them, especially if the players attacking the boss (TR, GWF) are taking a while in whittling him down (because, you know, they have merely average DPS, not some insanely high value). When I was first learning PK, the final fight was quite challenging for me because the adds would be constantly bumping me, throwing me up in the air, or otherwise interrupting my spells. I've gotten a lot better at it, and I think I might be able to control all those adds alone without a tank, but I wouldn't count on it, and having a tank controlling aggro on the adds is a *definite* benefit to me.
When i hear argues about tanks in NW i want to ask "what do we call tanks". So what do we call tanks here in NW? Some say being full tanking build, throwing Knight Challenge, Knight Valor and Into the Fray is the way of greatly aiding the team.
But what about CN runs done with 4Cw and 1DC? Do they even need that knight's valor? Never. (And honestly i believe if you even need to turn it on, then your whole team is doing something terribly wrong :rolleyes: )
Instead, a GF can go full conqueror and become a huge walking augmentation. Equip Knight Captain's set and spam all his powers, at-will@encounters@daily. Almost 100% set buff uptime (check that green skull), still enough survivability (def 3500 defl 2000 till DR start hitting hard). I never manage to die until my team makes some huge mistake
Correct, spec if largely referring to gear. That being said, all PvP specced GF's are Conquerors. The other two builds can be played with tremendous utility in groups but not quite as well in PvP unless you're in premades. The PvP specced GF's eschew anything resembling defense in favor of being able to bounce around and take out other plays provided the GF hits them first.
Both Bull Charge and Indomitable Strength are great skills when used properly. For example, Bulls is exceptionally useful in Epic Mad Dragon and Epic Karrundax for bouncing out a healer hiding under the dragon.
Good guide! Do as he said and all will be good.
I agree most of the time that a GF's role in a boss fight in NW should be add controll and bosses should be left to others. Mad Dragon is an exception. Sure, a TR can "tank" the dragon but it is much easier and safer for a GF, who can make sure that the dragon won't bother the rest of the group because he can focus his agro just on himself, a TR has a hard time doing that.
As a GF i slot as passives Combat Supriority and Ferocious Reaction. The First one for a bit of extra Dmg to get the Dragon down a bit faster and the second one as a little bit of a safety net.
At wills will be Cleave and Tide of Iron, no need to explain why i think.
As encounters i use Lunging Strike (you spend some time running/evading the big aoe so it's good to get back in as quick as possible), Frontline Surge (I mostly use it for the two imps you have on your back/front smomewhere around you. They are annoying and frontline surge is a nice way to get them. It also helps when/if one of the mage deamons retreat to the dragon where you can give them a little push while doing dmg to the dragonm at the same time.
As third encounter i use Into the Frey most of the time. Helps to move (some aoe from the dragon are better avoided than blocked) and gives the teammates a bit of an edge in the fight vs. the adds. When the dragon's health is down quite a bit i ofte change to anvil of doom. Combined with Villains Menace it does some nice dps
As daylies i use Fighters recovery (always good to have just in case) and Villains menace.
With this setup and a group that does not get killed by the adds the dragon is toast.
I am conqueror specced GF. I did it specifically for pve since i wasn't able to hold the aggro and protect wizards from dying. Now that i do a noticeable amount of damage, other members' hp is full most of the time.
*confession bear off*
But i haven't played my GF for ages, maybe the situation changed
Frontline Surge for Anvil of Doom, and leave Into the Fray be.
My GF is also a conqueror.
It's a perfectly viable way to play, all the more so (as with everything else in this game) as you gear up. It is only a problem when you have GF's who think that they are TR's with heavier armor.