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Cryptic. Please give us actual Dungeons

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  • munkey81munkey81 Member Posts: 1,322 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    jacksoon wrote: »
    Why you don't simply go play WoW? 10 man dungeon o.0? i don't wont to stay inside a dungeon a whole day -.- I love the dungeon we have atm.

    Comments like this do absolutely nothing to encourage any sort of normal response. Its just like you standing behind a crowd of Adults talking about a specific topic, and every now and then you chime in with random blabber that no one hears or pays any attention too.

    If you've never raided then you have no frame of referance and this is not the topic for you. If we had 5, or 10 man Epic dungeons. No one would force you to enter them. As far as you are concerned nothing would change at all, you could obviously continue doing what you do now, and others would have more to do if they so chose.

    Having raids is an excellent way of bringing a server community together. Guild alliances, pug invites for gear, guild run raid events etc. There are so many positive things that come from a good raiding community. It promotes great competition between guilds and "most" people will naturally end up becoming better players in the long run.

    As it stands now, unless you are in a guild run. No one ever speaks in dungeons, there is no "community" in this game, because there is no reason to talk to each other. Again, another positive of having raids. You "have" to talk to each other, and quite frequently or its rare you will ever beat any Raid Content.

    Starting off with an actual Epic 5 man/10 man, and allow foundry creators to design the maps would be easy for Cryptic, and the community would instantly become a better place because of it.
  • morsitansmorsitans Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,284 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2013
    I'll be honest: if you promised not to chatspam about beating it, then I'm all for it. :P I just don't think (at this point) it's a worthwhile investment of dev time. Hence the foundry suggestion.

    And in all likelihood, rather than "nobody talks in dungeons, this would force people to talk to each other", what would actually happen is "the guilds full of people who communicate already would continue to roflstomp content, everyone else would continue not talking, failing, and complaining." You'd just be increasing the amount of content that causes complaints. This is, I agree, a sorry state of affairs, but a nevertheless realistic one.
  • entrepostoentreposto Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    You could make your own content if you're so concerned.
  • cloud990plcloud990pl Member Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I don't know if you realise but 10+ player dungeons (with current style of dungeon "epicness") will just mean more adds, more trash, more time to beat it, probably same reward (1 epic item per boss). Every dungeon (now) is the same; get through meaningless trash, kill 2 semi bosses and finally deal with awesome, epic boss&addlots combo.

    Dungeons could be sooo awesome, for example:
    Pirate King

    - Beginning left same as it is except make surgeon kill his own mobs (sucking their life out of them), if mob that life is being sucked is attacked during drain it will explode inflicting damage to surgeon + he might grab one of the players and try to suck life out of him, then (player) must be saved by some action (it may be anythin from pulling the lever and throwing something at surgeon or just inflicting serious damage or any critical hit).

    - Next are bridges which could have been done better by creating "maze" of bridges leading to the harbor, where Blackdaggers ship is stationed. Of course it would mean major trash throwing out of bridges (like its not happening now, right?) but hey, at least players would feel like pursuing some HVT and nobody can stop you from that... and that's where Bosun Thickgristle enters; fighting on a bridge would eliminate problem with too many adds on him but then he needs to be buffed by adding an attack that would throw players either into oblivion or another bridge (so they would have to quickly find their way back to rest of the group), throw might be canceled by any control skill (or again any other activator). Upon defeat he would cut ropes trying to delay party and instead of landing in the harbor players would land in...

    -...or actually below harbor fighting trash again but with ability to destroy containers with "unknow" content (red ones would be nice;) that would help deal with them (and perhaps ease final battle). When arriving to the pier, group sees Blackdaggers ship flying away so they "decide" to steal one ship left and pursue him.

    -Final battle would be divided into 2 phases:

    -Phase 1: Pursuit and "naval" (not much of a naval combat when ship is flying) combat between two ships; one player has to steer the ship (pressing F near steering wheel from time to time would do the trick but player would have to be close to it due to fast activator disappearance), rest of the party would have to divide into 2 groups: one that fires cannons and second that runs for the ammo for them (similar to second phase of GG), fireing would take effect on phase 2 of the battle.

    -Phase 2: depending on group performance during first phase there would be less adds. Blackdagger himself would be fighting with same style but instead of spawning adds he would have special behaviors like throwing cargo on your head by steering his ship into rocks or just blowing remaining gunpowder on the deck. Also he would pick one of the players from time to time and fight him 1vs 1 while rest of the group would have to deal with lesser mobs (regulars who are fought during solo quests), he would be throw back at deck when player would deal ~5% damage of his (Blackdaggers) life.
    Dungeon ends with ship crash, loot and epic battle feeling.

    Playing through boooring dungeon for 2+ hours to get a chance of loot? I'll pass (especially with my uber lack of luck in rolls).
  • gokkensgokkens Member Posts: 104 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2013
    Munkey Think not of it as just me! the fact of the matter if you made 25 man raids only a tiny fraction would get to do that! compared to 5 really hard dungeons, thing of it like this you get something you like but every other guild on the server will be missing out!

    no idea what you use a qoutation mark around you, because this counts for the majority!
  • munkey81munkey81 Member Posts: 1,322 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    gokkens wrote: »
    Munkey Think not of it as just me! the fact of the matter if you made 25 man raids only a tiny fraction would get to do that! compared to 5 really hard dungeons, thing of it like this you get something you like but every other guild on the server will be missing out!

    no idea what you use a qoutation mark around you, because this counts for the majority!

    I've said before that having raids brings the community closer.

    Example. I'm in EoA on Mindflayer. All very good players, capable of doing whatever Raid they would possibly throw at us. Say we have a raid night and its a 25 man. We can only get 18 guildmates because of whatever reason to join. So we pug the remaining 7. 18 people, even less, in a 25 man can absolutely carry the weight of a lesser geared/skilled player. So these 7 players are not only going to learn something, possibly get some gear, but even better, make some new friends and if they do well in the raid, a possible guild invite, and definately another Raid invite in the future.

    I see zero reasons why someone wouldnt want raids in the game. If you dont want to Raid, then dont do it?

    I see alot of people saying it would be unfair to them, because they dont have the time to do raids, therefore would not ever be able to have the best gear, which obviously would drop from the raids. My comment to that is honestly just "too f!cking bad". Raids(generally)are hard, and take time. The people doing them deserve better gear because they have earned it. Too many players nowadays want everything handed to them on a silver platter and that attitude sickens me.
  • fantasycharacterfantasycharacter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 675 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    The more I read fom you, the more you seem like some child trolling. ( too f'n bad, when people express a different opinion...stomp your feet little 5 year old).

    If only a small amount of people can participate how the hell does that bring the community closer? It doesn't, it brings a few people closer and leaves the majority out in the cold.

    Get off the pot so your dope addled brain can comprehend something other than your need to feel special. Go on the most epic quest there is an get yourself a spouse to make you feel special. Feeling special through raiding is ultimately vacuous.
  • aethanasaethanas Member Posts: 232 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Oh no! Please do not do the same follies WoW did.
    I never saw that a community gets closer by Raids or other super big instances, moreover the bulk of the casual players, or players playing a bit more, would only get more frustrated as they get now when they do not have a pre-made group.


    Those hardcore players would only seclude themselves in their elitist caste and exclude every other player who is not able to play a game for hours non-stop during a week.


    And what should they gain from those super big dungeons? I speak of the elites with too much time. Maybe super strong equipment? Or other benefits? So the bulk of the players, the casual players, would lose in the long run? And get scared away like in other games? Or do the casual players have to stick solely to other casual players because they are not powerful enough to be of any use for these elitist players?


    Well, and if they get what they want, what would the other elites do? The elites with too much money? Would they not also try to force something we already have in the game Perfect World of PWE? Just pay around 700€ and you get super strong equipment because you do not have the patience to collect any of your stuff? Shall that be the plan for the game? (This sum actually doubles or triples in PWI due to refining and socketing and upgrading this already strong equipment, even more furthering the difference between casual player and elitist player.)


    After playing WoW and Perfect World, I suppose the bulk of the players would get frustrated between these elites with too much time or too much money.


    And if we would have those super long and strong dungeons? What then? Do the rest have to earn the honour to participate in them? Do the rest have to prove that they are worthy of joining the elite of the elite of a server?
    Right now we have players who want to dictate who is allowed to do a dungeon and who not, but with these super long and hard dungeons, this behaviour would only get a boost and the bulk of the players would really have to collect their stuff for months and more just to have a chance in those elitist dungeons.

    Not to speak of new players who get just one message straight and clear: You are useless until you have spent very much time or very much money here. Do one really think these potential new players would not get scared away by these very high requirements?

    I do not think that this way would be of any use to the game or Cryptic in the long run.
  • munkey81munkey81 Member Posts: 1,322 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    The more I read fom you, the more you seem like some child trolling. ( too f'n bad, when people express a different opinion...stomp your feet little 5 year old).

    If only a small amount of people can participate how the hell does that bring the community closer? It doesn't, it brings a few people closer and leaves the majority out in the cold.

    Get off the pot so your dope addled brain can comprehend something other than your need to feel special. Go on the most epic quest there is an get yourself a spouse to make you feel special. Feeling special through raiding is ultimately vacuous.

    Calling me a Troll because I want more content is hilarious. I say "too fckn bad" to the people who want everything handed to them. Its not an "opinion" when you just cry about Raid content solely because you arent able to go, its just plain crying.

    You are identical to the burger flipper at McDonalds b!tching about the Bill Gates kinda people. "oh, poor me, I'm poor and too lazy to get something better, everyone should be poor and lazy just like me!". Just because you arent able to raid, doesnt mean it shouldnt be available for other people.

    I would love to know what your /played time is. I guarantee theres enough time in there to do a raid once a week.
  • tehdragotehdrago Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I agree with the OP on this one.

    Now, before I continue, I am NOT a WoWtard, quite the opposite. I've been boycotting WoW for years. I'm a veteran Guild Wars player.

    Moving forward, I own a Guild on MindFlayer called Fighters of the Preposterous, and our main focus is Dungeons / Raids / PvE.

    I think that adding 10 or 25 man Raids might be overkill, however I agree that there needs to be more End-game Dungeons and Raids, that are more than what people keep repeating about (I'll not restate what others have posted enough times already.)

    If people aren't interested in running a four hour Dungeon / Raid, Don't do it. I don't feel it should be a requirement for anyone, but that it should be an option for Guilds such as ours, where if we truly want to, we can do it!

    There is nothing more exciting in my eyes, than running a crazy hard dungeon, that takes true tactical skill and planning, communication about everything we are doing; rather than zerging the majority of the dungeon until we hit the final boss, and then using some halfway formed tactic. I want REAL, DEEP, You-Must-Work-As-a-Team Raids!There is some decent stuff as it is so far that I have done, but as a Seasoned D&D Player and Dungeon Master, I believe D&D Is primarily a Tabletop Raiding Game (OBVIOUSLY with some Deep Roleplaying too, don't get me wrong) and so a D&D game should focus on that more than things like PvP.

    Just my two cents.

    Ensue flaming.
  • ordensmarschallordensmarschall Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1,060 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2013
    Both the OP and you have few things going against you in your desire to see the kind of raids you envision. Your primary obstacle as I see it is the player base.

    1) Most posters here in the forum and in the LFG chat want fast dungeons. I have tried to form groups to do a full clear, even when I have been successful it has taken me 1.5 to 2 hours(prior to the Festival), to get a group together. Right now this only takes 5 players, I wouldn't even want to attempt it needing 10. Then the dungeon still needs to be run, so 3/3.5 hours for current content. Your vision could easily go to 6 hours, even players that would like to run a longer dungeon will baulk at that kind of time.

    2) Too many players with no patience. Too many dungeon runs have ended failure after a player wipes one or two times and quits. There are also a large number of players who will leave if one of the other players is new to the dungeon/class. They have no patience to give the new person time to learn.

    3) Lack of communication. I have done many runs where after the "Hellos", not another word was said. I find this rather ironic considering a MMO is supposed to be a social game. Often when there is communication it is simply to bad mouth another player just prior to rage quitting.

    4) Many player want their hands to be held. A few times as leader I have turned off the "sparkly trail", now that will get you communication. I have been with players that have run a dungeon over 20 times, but without the trail they have no idea where to go. Have either ever noticed some of the questions asked in the chat? I was waiting for friend in front of the Tarmulene Trade maerchant once for about 15 minutes, I lost count of the number of bubbles I saw asking where he was, even though he was right in front of them. Many can't be bothered to talk to NPCs or even read the tooltips on the UI.

    These are just the problems from the player base you would need to overcome. Then you have the game itself, the Devs, and PWE to contend with. I honestly think you would wind up even more frustrated if they were to implement a raid, than you are now without a raid at all.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • tehdragotehdrago Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Most of the issues you mentioned above, can indeed be rather frustrating, however are also not a concern to myself nor my Guild, and shouldn't be to any decent Raiding Guild.

    We have patience, We don't need Fast Runs, We use Teamspeak 3 when Dungeon Delving and Even when we aren't and communication is a constant, Our players don't care if our hand is held, it's more exciting if it isn't...

    That being said, we can't be the only guild out there with the same thoughts and same feelings on the subject; which is why I hope raids become more of an idea. Those of us who are prepared, and can do it...Can have the option.
  • grimahgrimah Member Posts: 1,658 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    i partially agree with the OP here, but Instead of 8 boss dungeons which would be far too long.

    I would love to see new dungeons with 3 bosses as usual, but each boss is tough and get harder as you go. rather than 2 trash bosses + 1 end boss.

    Or

    Make a dungeon with 6 bosses, and you can go 2 different paths, each having their own loot table. and tactics. that would be quite awesome.
    Creator of the featured survival horror foundry: "The Silence of Haydenwick" Video Review
    and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
  • adernathadernath Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Although I understand that some 'hard core' gamers wants to have bigger dungeons, i find it simply immoral to introduce dungeons which keeps a person occupied for an entire afternoon. I made the experience by myself by leading ICC25 raids.

    The priority PWE should focus on are already mentioned in the countless bug-reports on the forum.

    My Idea to adress this problem:

    Let the community create their own end-game: Introduce a stable review system so that we have epic foundry rewards. I really would like to see epic 5 man foundry dungeons with epic gear in the end. The review system must be intelligent enough so that no abusive behaviour is ensured (like creating a cakewalk with epic loot).

    Perhaps introduce some kind of 'bug-report' button in dungeons, so if there is something wrong with a dungeon and too many 'bug-reports' appear in a given period of time, then the loot will be changed back to blue (or green), so authors are forced to fix bugs in their dungeons.

    By going this way every hard-core gamer would truley find an endless end-game.
    Suggestions to improve NW:
    - Dualspec
    - Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
    - Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
    - Armory
    - make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
  • reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I'm amazed at the amount of people who think they should delete the trash mobs in the dungeons and go straqight for the boss, I wonder if they have played any other MMO before, that's what a dungeon is, you go through lots of trash mob and finally get to the boss, it's not the same if they put the final boss right at the beginning.
    I kinda agree with the OP that it would be nice, but as someone else mentioned, this is cryptic game, and so far I haven't seen much epic content in either champions or STO (although I just played a bit of STO) it's mostly aimed at more casual players.
    I think before making harder dungeons, they need to fix the problems with the current ones, or else, the new dungeons will be just as exploitable.
    2e2qwj6.jpg
  • pjdvpjdv Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 67
    edited September 2013
    notslohg wrote: »
    Omg, I cannot believe that so many people have a problem with others trying to do more. Just because you don't want to spend the time means no one else should have it available to them? I am sure you are one of the people who drop out of a pug the first wipe and screw it up for the other four who have waited an hour or more just to have the queue pop. Getting tired of this attitude real fast.

    Would love to see a stiff penalty for those drop outs too. Maybe first to drop out has a 24 hour queue ban. That should give you the limited content your looking for.

    actually, the point is: What should dev's be spending their time on with limited budget and limited time? NOT a 10 person or 4 hour dungeon that would cater to the exceedingly small group of people capable of finding the people or the time. MORE 5 man skirmishes and dungeons would be significantly smarter return on the investment to cater to largest audience.

    What I would like to see is dungeons with less MOB's/trash and more exploring. The side quest in malabog ' was fun (and freaked a few people out before realizing that it was not an unexpected PvP encounter!)
  • pjdvpjdv Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 67
    edited September 2013
    adernath wrote: »
    Although I understand that some 'hard core' gamers wants to have bigger dungeons, i find it simply immoral to introduce dungeons which keeps a person occupied for an entire afternoon. I made the experience by myself by leading ICC25 raids.

    The priority PWE should focus on are already mentioned in the countless bug-reports on the forum.

    My Idea to adress this problem:

    Let the community create their own end-game: Introduce a stable review system so that we have epic foundry rewards. I really would like to see epic 5 man foundry dungeons with epic gear in the end. The review system must be intelligent enough so that no abusive behaviour is ensured (like creating a cakewalk with epic loot).

    Perhaps introduce some kind of 'bug-report' button in dungeons, so if there is something wrong with a dungeon and too many 'bug-reports' appear in a given period of time, then the loot will be changed back to blue (or green), so authors are forced to fix bugs in their dungeons.

    By going this way every hard-core gamer would truley find an endless end-game.

    epic foundries is a great idea. And they should open up foundry to allow for user created look and feel equipment so I can get rid of this ridiculous jester look on my rogue
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