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What do you think about current class balance for pve?
pandapaul
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 424 Bounty Hunter
So we have had a few weeks since last balance patch.. How do you think they did with the balance..
I think TR is fairly close to where they should be in terms of dps.. Don't seem to be topping charts anymore through a dungeon but when we get to the boss they catch up quickly.. Seems like that's about right
DC I'm not sure as well they always hit bottom of charts and the primary attributes are not to do with dps
Gf I think might have a little too much single target dps.. I would like to see them maybe lose a little dps and gain a bit more tankier attributes.. Given they are a tank
CW is out of control.. Right now in pve they are completely OP in every respect.. They control attributes are critical to parties..which is fine.. But there aoe dps is completely unchallenged when played correctly... By miles... And there single target dps is very high too... Seems like this class is completely unbalanced for pve
GWF.. Very average aoe dps.. For a aoe dps class.. Kind of embaressing.. Should have more aoe dps than CW but isn't close.. Single target dps is well almost the worst of any class but the DC. There AP generation is the worst of any class by miles now and probably is the main cause of significantly lower dps
I think the current balance patch actually caused more imbalance than it was before... Seems like they going backwards with class balance for pve
I think TR is fairly close to where they should be in terms of dps.. Don't seem to be topping charts anymore through a dungeon but when we get to the boss they catch up quickly.. Seems like that's about right
DC I'm not sure as well they always hit bottom of charts and the primary attributes are not to do with dps
Gf I think might have a little too much single target dps.. I would like to see them maybe lose a little dps and gain a bit more tankier attributes.. Given they are a tank
CW is out of control.. Right now in pve they are completely OP in every respect.. They control attributes are critical to parties..which is fine.. But there aoe dps is completely unchallenged when played correctly... By miles... And there single target dps is very high too... Seems like this class is completely unbalanced for pve
GWF.. Very average aoe dps.. For a aoe dps class.. Kind of embaressing.. Should have more aoe dps than CW but isn't close.. Single target dps is well almost the worst of any class but the DC. There AP generation is the worst of any class by miles now and probably is the main cause of significantly lower dps
I think the current balance patch actually caused more imbalance than it was before... Seems like they going backwards with class balance for pve
Post edited by pandapaul on
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The fact that wizards can do large AOE does not bother me, a high level wizard is supposed to be a powerful character. The thing about wizards that bothers me is they are too one dimensional. Wizards can help parties in a variety ways, but here they have only been given damage spells. Look in the PH and check out all the spells wizards have access to.
Thieves have also been made one dimensional, again they actually are supposed to have a wide variety skills that help a party beyond high single DPS. They should not be able to compete with wizards for the top of the damage chart.
With the GF and GWF they managed to split the coin in half. With the latest balancing changes they have completely undermined both classes. These classes should be combined and allow the player to decide whether to tank or to be a single foe/AOE DPSer. Right now it is very difficult for the GF tank, or for the GWF to deal high single DPS.
On the whole PvE balance needs to be fixed. Actually having the classes be able to perform the skills they are supposed to be able to would fix some of the balance issues.
GWF: Excellent tank that can handle boss damage better than most rogues, but isn't so great with ADDS. Mid-range DPS (AOE or Single Target, mixed bag) that's better than a DC and most GF's, but worse than TR's and CW's. A minor level of effective control options that puts our usefulness at control and debuff under most CW's, GF's and DC's. Very poor threat generation making AOE and ADD tanking, and even boss tanking, exceptionally difficult.
GWF Suggestion: Bring our AOE DPS up on par with our single-target (so still below CW's), and fix our AP generation so we can launch dailies as often as the other classes, and our damage output should be capable of fighting for the top two spots more often. Add a secondary benefit to Unstoppable which generates massive amount of AOE threat for the short period of time it's active, letting us act as a temporary aggro magnet to act as a melee version of singularity. All GWF defenses should be more geared to AOE management instead of boss damage (i.e. More defense against being surrounded, AOE attacks, and less single-target buffer). These changes should gear us more to handling ADDS and using our mobility on the parimeter of the fight than being second-man on the boss.
GF: Solid tanks with limited mobility. Great defense against single-target and mob damage. Very good control with knockdown and knockback making them very viable along with CW's and push. Can generate threat decently. Decent single-target DPS comparable at the best of times with GWF destroyers.
GF Suggestions: There's no reason GF's should be kiting adds in dungeons. They should be toe to toe with the boss while the rogue moves for the backstab, but for reasons to deal with how aoe/ADD damage is handled, they are simply better at ADD tanking than GWF's. More single-target threat generation (instead of AOE), so that they can almost guarantee that no matter who hits that boss harder, it will always focus on the GF. And more immunities while blocked against boss-generated CW.
CW: Large scale, AOE damage and control capabilities make this class crucial to all current add-heavy dungeons. Especially since very few mobs are CC immune. Their range gives them an advantage in many areas where targets can be picked off before actually aggressing. Plus, they have great capabilities with Singularity and various forms of push which make handling mass mobs very easy ... as along as a cliff is nearby. To top all of that, their debuff's are the strongest of any class.
CW Suggestions: The easiest move would be able to reduce this classes effectiveness, but I personally don't feel it's the class' fault that it's so useful. Instead of changing CW's, the devs could replace a few more mobs with CC immune mobs, and introduce new mechanics which offer some form of AOE immunity (like an AOE shield mob, for instance) in a small area. I would offer a new encounter or even daily power for CW's called 'Mirror Image' which would give them a bit more defense (by way of reducing the accuracy of attacks against them, instead of buffing their actual defensive stats).
TR: High single-target damage output. Great defense in deflect and dodge capabilities. The only class that can completely drop threat if need be. Some AOE CC, though don't seem to be as useful in pve.
TR Suggestions: More important, in my mind, than changing TR's would be to add the suggested buffs to GF's, which would make them fight toe-to-toe for Boss management.
DC: While damage isn't their strong point at all, DC are great group healers. They generate a lot of aggro, though. They lack much in the way of self healing, so tanking (at least EHP tanking) is poor.
DC: Instead of boosting damage capabilities, I personally would increase DC tank, and add significant buffing capabilities, making the DC's the best force-multiplier on the field. Finally, I would give them some capabilities for 'laying hands', which would add as significant debuffs within melee range, giving them some offensive usefullness.
Again, these were just my opinions, and how I see things.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
why not make other class more
Useful
So you are saying gwf should do nore burst damage then cws.. Hilarious
Ill let some1 else explain to you the role of gwf
Ever realises cryptic only want to make the game harder
Dont Come cry to me the day i cant carry ur 9200 gwf in cn
As for the toon herself I was lucky with her otherwise, she was already Sentinel specced, So the 'balancing' didn't force me to change her whole concept as it did some people. You don't balance with a sledgehammer. 60% nerf to slam rendered your best go to adds stomping AOE trivial. Its seldom in my tray anymore. Yeah I know the PVP players hated chasing a fast running US using hard to kill GWF around and getting whittled down by the daily, so they cried and cried and cried about node soloing, overpowered, yada yada, and got what they wanted, But it weakened the already gimped class usefulness in team PVE play even more. Still, for solo mission farming the GWF is hard to beat, she's just weaker now.
My CW on the other hand is a very happy camper. Fixing the damage procs for singularity turned it from a crowd herder to a real killer. In normal content it eats the adds and just spits out the boss , very much the worse for wear. I can see having as many as 3 CW on a dungeon team being a very good idea. Till they nerf it back. CWs are for sure the FOTM for now.
TR stealth has always been weak in this game. As a former DM, I know its the hardest thief skill to properly integrate into play. Weakening it more to stop the invisible ranged mayhem that poorer PVP teams got wrecked by didn't make it that much worse. When I get the adds I'm gonna respec mine for executioner like everybody else, and just follow the herd. Its sad though, and I think they should rename the class Thug or Streetfighter, because it is really defined by its single target damage rather than its traditional DnD roles.
Probably no sledgehammer nerf in the game hit as hard as reducing Astral shield's duration for 15 to 10 seconds. I can see this, and I wasn't even in game when it happened.Nerfing this little island of respite for the squishier classes IMO is one of the things that tipped play in the epics, and changed the necessity of hacking your way through endless spawns of mega adds from being merely boring to outright dangerous. Sudden knockdowns and deaths of a party's healer and/or another member often is a sure wipe.
I have 2 suggestions :
1) Put down the sledgehammer. Smaller more gradual changes are less likely to break the game or wreck the average player's playstyle to the point he gets angry and leaves.
2) Balance the PVP game to the classes, instead of changing the classes to improve PVP. The core to leveling and income in this game is still PVE. Simply changing PC powers and gear to fix PVP messes up the rest of the game. The characters are the core of the game, not the environment. You will have to change one side of the game or the other and PVE is your true foundation content. I like PVP and think it adds to the game, but you need to find a way to fix IT, not the characters. It must change to fit the game, not vice versa.
Escpacially the cleric class lacks virtually everything of the essentials of the cleric in DnD 4.
Ranged attack, aoe damage, and crowd control. Can we say those abilities make CW overpowered? Nope, because that's how CW handle things naturally. They are born to do ranged attack, aoe damage, and crowd control.
While I agree to improve other classes' features so classes become more diverse. Take survivability for example, if CW typically have 25k hp, then GF/GWF should typically have 40k hp or higher so that makes them outstanding in tanking and being more survivable in the front line. Currently GF/GWF and CW have roughly the same hp in general, and that's odd.
Current What ?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Taking a break from Neverwinter indefinitely...
If perfect class balance were possible then WoW wouldn't have done anything to classes since they balanced the classic expansion classes.
Cleric: Support
Able to heal themselves through virtually any encounter with somewhat flimsy armor but has damage mitigation and a shift dodge to compensate, primarily a support role with massive AoE healing and damage mitigation abilities, mediocre single target heals and limited dps capacity and amenable cc. At home in any game mode.
Trickster Rogue: Dps / CC
Primarily a high single target damage dealer with medium cc and limited aoe damage, flimsy armor which dodge attributes and evade abilities compensate for.At home in any game mode.
Guardian Fighter: Tank / Dps/ CC
The whole tank yet slightly better then the tank, has high defensive capabilities gained from stats, a guard meter and formidable feats,with medium single and aoe dps abilities , also has medium to high cc capability. At home in any game mode
Control Wizard: Dps / Cc
The god of Concussive Casting is unparalleled in it's crowd control capabilities, with medium to high single target and aoe damage abilities, has flimsy armor but compensates with dodge and a self cast damage mitigation shield.At home in any game mode
Great Weapon Fighter: Sort of dps and sort of tank with kind of crowd control but not really sure
Has numerous aoe dps abilities which look pretty but don't do all that much damage, armor is flimsy with the unstoppable skill(bugged for months now) to compensate yet looses its dps role if it specs into survivability and has negligible taunt abilities, cc is only single target whilst it has some slow they are not much of an impediment to any class or monster. Shift move ability is pointless as if it is not released regardless of the characters position you are rubber-banded back to your original spot so it's absolutely a floppy jallopy unless you like chasing after people who don't want to hit you. Not really at home in any game mode short of a cookie cutter sentinel build in the pvp game mode but all people have to do is kite kill you to negate your effectiveness Although you can pay lots of dollarydoos to get op enhancements to own in pvp but so can every class.
I disagree with some of this assessment.
My first and so far only lvl 60 is a DC. And he is not "at home" in any game mode. Unless of course "heal themselves through virtually any encounter" is a serious statement. Without top gear and a really tight build, people in groups will occasionally need to break of attack to 'rescue' the DC. In most groups I manage, DC's and CWs help each other a lot.
Now something I know less about. If the GF is so much better than the GWF, how come I see so many more GWFs running about than GFs?
"Young people....." - Erik Lehnsherr
My GF block is bugged and not providing CC/knockback immunity and his at-wills while blocking don't proc ANY weapon enchantment affects.
My GWF and TR class abilities are thoroughly bugged, often times not activating at all and locking up, unable to activate again. My TR's main tank-type skill, Impossible to Catch, is also bugged in the same way my GF block ability is - no longer providing knockback immunity.
Then there's the post-xpack server stability issues and the numerous bugs surrounding dragon type enemies and their effects.
The game is in a pretty bad spot right now. The OP class is the one with the least bugged powers.
Remember, some of the players here get so focused on the DD's or PVP that they lose sight of some of the core aspects of the game. GWFs are only marginally useful in DDs any more, and though their CC is more than marginal, as rortie claims (Shout, Roar, and Come and Get It can provide instant cleric relief) it has been suicidal since the US bug. This bug kicks in at high incoming DPS possibly by overfilling the bar too quickly, and the power locks up, and won't go off or reset till you die. Which under severe aggro from dungeon critters might not take very long.
But in other aspects of the game, foundry and leveling content where you are often solo, the GWF excels due to its balanced damage/defense nature. The US bug comes rarely there, and a well geared LVL 60 GWF is matchless IMO for farming in foundry or Sharandar. Many offsite reviewers and summaries recommend the GWF for new players.
You are absolutely right , how could i have been so stupid!?! i should be playing an mmo to solo all content* and not form a party or verse a player!
*Players be advised that whilst perfectworld thoroughly encourages you to play by your self, all game content is not completable by yourself.
This is not the case in PvE - it is not a competition (in general) - more of a cooperation, where the classes have to support each other - also, all the classes have to be viable for solo play.
My primary char was a DC, and quite frankly, the changes done to that class in the name of "balance" (not to mention the current bugs), have hurt the class to the point that I hardly bother to play it any more, unless my guild needs a DC for something. Our offensive power has been hurt to the point that a typical lvl 60 DC now takes 25 minutes to complete a "15 minute" foundry.
Sure, we are still needed and wanted in groups (unlike the poor GWFs), but there are fewer of us around....thanks to "class balance".
If CW scatters mobs or does not control mobs, or uses damage focused powers (instead of control focused powers), then CW damage tends to be higher on the damage chart. I play a control spec CW who keep mobs stunned in a small circle. In most dungeons GWF/GF/TR do more total damage than me. Sometimes, I get a complaint about low damage, but I know the complainer does not fully understand why my damage is less.
If CW uses vorpal enchantment, then only his damage will increase. If CW uses a debuff weapon enchantment, then everyone's damage will increase.
Clerics give me compliments since it's easier to single target heal when the mob is contained in a small circle.
I have a cleric alt and can confirm that it's more difficult to see and heal party members when a mob is spread out and uncontrolled.
You are doing it wrong and most likely your team as well.
We were all of the personal opinion that as far as pvp balance, and in many respects, pve balance is concerned ... well, the classes are pretty well balanced. Everyone had their gripe (for example, I hate the lack of AP we generate compared to the general lack of damage output of GWF dailies), but all in all, we felt it is pretty fair.
Only problem that REALLY existed was the over reliance on CW's in dungeons. And we could all agree that, instead of nerfing classes like they did on the live balance patch, maybe they need to look into dungeon design.
As an example of the argument, why are CW's so necessary? The amount of mobs, for starters. Too many regular mobs, too many boss adds, and CW's do the job better than anyone on handling those. Secondly, my CW friends argued that since the CW nerf which put a cap on the number of mobs affected, it's been easier to swap out one of the melee classes for another CW to take those leftover mobs. Third, poor dungeon layout, which makes convenient edges simply the easiest way to move quickly (not that any of us argued to have those removed, just reduced). Finally, lack of CC immune mobs, which force other group members (such as the GWF) to step up and take part of the load.
Since dungeon design is so remarkably stale and full of exploits, except for possibly MC, the bigger point was that if they want to generate a 'full house party' (one of each class), they'll need to give players a reason to want to pick up that fifth hand. That GWF or GF, as it turns out. GF have very capable tank, single target damage and threat generation, making them perfect boss handlers.
But what makes a GWF *essential* on any dungeon run? How do we make the parties life easier? DC's heal, TR's make the boss die quickly, GF's soak up tons of damage and keep things focused on them, and CW's handle the junk mobs and keep them off the rest of the party. But a GWF, by design, lacks a purpose.
Which lead to our final point: GWF's don't need a boost, but maybe damage output or AOE is not the way it should work. I've felt quite strongly that having Unstoppable act as an aggression magnet and draw mobs to us ... particularly CC immune mobs that normally can't be pulled/pushed/knocked down ... well, it would allow us to more appropriately handle the add aggro that the extra CW often is in place for. Without giving us any advantage at all in PvP.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
GFs do indeed too much damage for a tanking class, but that's only conqueror tanks. This is extremely powerful with a timeless hero set. The damage skyrockets in this case.
CWs... Well, there are some spells doing a lot of damage, and they are aoe. Since they have the ability to gather mobs AND do aoe dps, there might be something wrong in the equation, because CWs don't rely on any other classes. When i play mine i have no difficulty packing up all npcs in a room to use my heavy dps aoe spells. CWs can have control and dps. Because they can use 4 spells. That's unique.
Well DHUUHHH.. you figure?. I really appreciate you blessing me with your wisdom.
This was a PUG. 2CW, DC GF, and GWF. The only times we defeated her in time was when she auto-deathed on my GWF. The other times it was on a CW, which left myself, the DC and a CW to tackle her. We were aware that the dragon was just a distraction and that to win we had to stop her . Just couldn't bring enough damage to bear on her fast enough. Without lots of adds my GWF AP generations was slowed to where I could only use crescendo every other spawn. Hammer for DC got the nerf axe too. The old slam DOT did triple what crescendo does, the new one maybe less. As our GF was geared just under 11k , and not uber geared for massive DPS, we left him on the dragon. Pulling him would have complicated things more, or so we all thought. Maybe he would have mattered, maybe not.
I've beaten it on my CW. Had I brought him, we would not have failed. A mistake I haven't repeated. What you get there is not worth getting her hitched to a 13k team that can drag her along. She is Sentinel specced, which I find useful elsewhere, and like most of the other epics, I view this one as basically not worth the time. Most teams only farm the first two bosses any way. (YAWN)
So either give GFs an aggro increase through basic mark and our basic abilities or just bite the bullet and give us a hard taunt already. If we get that ill be content with our PVE capability. I still think we could use more damage output (especially for prot spec) but if I got more threat generation without enhanced mark I could live without it
Take the boss vs add issue, for instance. Some say GFs should stick to the boss, but why? Why can't the GF stick to the adds, and let the party deal with the boss? It's fully doable, if you know what you're doing. The trick is to build aggro quickly, and damage even quicker. The enemy can't hurt you if they're dead, after all.
On-topic, I think the balance has come a long way, but there's still more to do, and they are working on it. Give it time, people. There are a lot of work needed on the game, so we should be happy they are working as hard as they do.
I think CWs should be able to do heavy damage and also be team players. With that said, I think you are doing a good job. Keeping the mobs, especially higher level mobs that can be difficult to kill, in one location makes it easier for your team members to help get rid of them. The cleric are also correct to compliment you because its easier to heal party members if they are contained in a single location as well.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
Sadly, to me it doesn't matter much. Did dailies the first 3 or so days after the patch. Since then, I haven't logged in to do anything other than pray and buy/sell some stuff. They can hit all the classes w/ a nerf bat now and I'll just lol since this game means virtually nothing to me anymore
How did they break it? Please explain.
Note: I have seen some CWs, even have one in my guild, that is capable of soloing t2s.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)