What's the big deal with wanting Dragons?

antonkyle · August 2013

I have heard many people say it's called Dungeons and DRAGONS so we should have Dragons.

The truth is that the last thing the Lore of D&D needs is every Tom, <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and Harry being able to put Dragons in there true form in every foundry quests.

" Today, the dragons of Toril are nearly all recluses or at the very least deceptive to their true nature, living amongst other species in polymorphed form."

So when you ask for Dragons, please don't make out it is for Lore reasons.

Nope, I never want to see Dragons included in the Foundry, I'm sorry if you don't agree.
I'm new to D&D but I like to throw myself into new things and explore the story, for me Lore is everything in mmo's and it's the one aspect of this game I truly enjoy above all else.

koboldbard2 · August 2013

If there's no dragons, no good authors can use dragons, and you're probably not playing junk quests anyway, so it's not a problem.

ephiroll · August 2013

I mentioned it in another post, but it's basically because the characters level up so quick that at level 60 dragons are the go to boss. Slow the level progression and make there be a penalty for dying so it'll mean something and the demand for dragons will disappear. No one will jump to fighting something that call kill them multiple times within minutes and leave that character unplayable for an hour by doing so. Problem solved. Otherwise, also, it's against dragon lore for there to be a lot so they should be limited.

antonkyle · August 2013

ephiroll wrote: »

I mentioned it in another post, but it's basically because the characters level up so quick that at level 60 dragons are the go to boss. Slow the level progression and make there be a penalty for dying so it'll mean something and the demand for dragons will disappear.

I couldn't agree more with slowing levelling. I'm 47 now I have only played for 6-7 weeks and have been in the foundry for 90% of that time. Also this is my 3rd toon and I've levelled the others to at least 30. All I do is play a few foundries and prey.

ephiroll · August 2013

I've played one character for 3 1/2 weeks and will max out within a couple more days. He's 56 now. But, I wouldn't have leveled up so quick if the Foundry wasn't down because most that time would have been spent reviewing and designing rather than killing stuff.

antonkyle · August 2013

I just read up on the lore when the foundry is down. I have loads of new idea's now. With the new 3d editor I am itching to get started. It will cut my quest building time in half.

chili1179 · August 2013

In pen and paper sessions for me, to face off against a dragon was a rare and wonderful thing. They are the end game boss fight, a rare beauty to behold with vast and amazing riches to plunder if you were strong enough to conquer one.

While I agree that the way this game is done that dragons aren't properly represented or utilized, but if Crytpic can throw one out for level 30 slops to clumsily fight then why not give them to the rest of us? After all, they trivialized them at this point.

zbkolde · August 2013

Just because dragons were available, doesn't necessarily mean they'd be put in every quest. And, just because someone put a dragon in a quest, wouldn't make it a great quest. It'd just be another asset that could be used to create good stories. Some people throw together poor quests now using the best assets we have available, so that wouldn't be anything new. Meanwhile, the great authors would be able to do even greater things.

I'd like to be able to change the size of animal-type NPCs. Make a giant bear, or a giant hawk, or a little bitty baby tiger. Would be nice to have dragons, then also have the ability to change the size of those too. Though, having said that, none of the quests i've been working on or planning would have need for a dragon. But i've played some other quests that seemed to be leading up to finding them, and that would be really nice to see.

zahinder · August 2013

I'd like dragons. But there are SOOOO many more important things...

ephiroll · August 2013

Yeah, I miss the pen and paper days. It's been 14 years and 2nd edition rules since then. I agree that one I seen didn't do them proper justice, but if they're put in the foundry then half the quests from that point on would have them and they'd become common as kobolds eventually. I'd like to see one zone for them. A mountain area with a few caves spread out housing a few different types of extremely power dragons who have minions and such that high level players could go 'hunt'.

ambisinisterr · August 2013

Just to throw this out there...

First and foremost there are some things which not all authors should be able to have. It's a valid point that people will put dragons into their quests just to use dragon and...yeah...ew...no...horrible...

When dragons are available to authors they should need to be earned.

Secondly...authors need the ability to select level requirements for quests. When I make a quest with a dragon I wouldn't want players who are level four fighting it and killing it.

On further thought, since quests which offer dragons at level four would rack up plays and such simply because of the dragon, perhaps quests which include non-cosmetic dragons should have a level 30-40 Level Requirment...on top of allowing authors to set their own intended level restrictions.

As a NWN Content Developer I firmly believe that designing quests around intended level ranges is crucial to story success. Dragons are a key example because any NWN Content which had a person fighting a full grown big mean dragon at level one would have been instantly abandoned by any D&D player.

The Foundry is a means for players to tell thier own stories and that can't happen if I can't make sure a player is at least a minimum level.

(dialogue options based on level range would be appreciated too)

antonkyle · August 2013

zbkolde wrote: »

Just because dragons were available, doesn't necessarily mean they'd be put in every quest. And, just because someone put a dragon in a quest, wouldn't make it a great quest. It'd just be another asset that could be used to create good stories. Some people throw together poor quests now using the best assets we have available, so that wouldn't be anything new. Meanwhile, the great authors would be able to do even greater things.

I'd like to be able to change the size of animal-type NPCs. Make a giant bear, or a giant hawk, or a little bitty baby tiger. Would be nice to have dragons, then also have the ability to change the size of those too. Though, having said that, none of the quests i've been working on or planning would have need for a dragon. But i've played some other quests that seemed to be leading up to finding them, and that would be really nice to see.

I think they would be put in many, many quests. I'm not all that bothered if people want them, everyone has their opinions. I just thought I'd throw mine out there to show that there is two sides to this. It's not like Boss encounters where everyone wants them.

Like I said, just don't ask for them using the games lore as a reason because it's wrong. Say something like 'I want Dragons because they are bad *** and awesome.'

antonkyle · August 2013

ambisinisterr wrote: »

Just to throw this out there...

First and foremost there are some things which not all authors should be able to have. It's a valid point that people will put dragons into their quests just to use dragon and...yeah...ew...no...horrible...

When dragons are available to authors they should need to be earned.

Secondly...authors need the ability to select level requirements for quests. When I make a quest I with a dragon I wouldn't want players who are level four fighting it and killing it.

On further thought, since quests which offer dragons at level 4 would rack up plays and such simply because it's a level four dragon quest perhaps quests which include non-cosmetic only dragons should require a players to be at least level 30-40...on top of allowing authors to set their own intended level restrictions.

As a NWN Content Developer I firmly believe that designing quests around intended level ranges is crucial to story success. Dragons are a key example because any NWN Content which had a person fighting a full grown big mean dragon at level one would have been instantly abandoned by any D&D player.

The Foundry is a means for players to tell thier own stories and that can't happen if I can't make sure a player is at least a maximum level.

(dialogue options based on level range would be appreciated too)

Some very valid points there. I like the idea of earning things. Depends how it is done. I fear it would become another part of the rich get richer.

chili1179 · August 2013

antonkyle wrote: »

Some very valid points there. I like the idea of earning things. Depends how it is done. I fear it would become another part of the rich get richer.

I'm sure if PWE had their way it would be a Zen store item.

antonkyle · August 2013

chili1179 wrote: »

I'm sure if PWE had their way it would be a Zen store item.

There is doubt about that!:(

moonchipz · August 2013

The actual lore behind the dragon doesn't matter. Its something called a creative license I think...

If someone has a story they want to tell and it involves a dragon in some way, they should be allowed to put one in the quest... otherwise they're missing part of their story. The whole point of this is to tell a story, not protect the dragon endangered species.

Technically, each author is creating their own campaign world and are able to make modifications to lore as they see fit in their story. It has always been up to the dungeon master, and thus it is in the hands of the author in this game.

Get over your stupid fan girl dragon stuff and let the authors have dragons so we can all move on to more important things... like TIMERS.

zbkolde · August 2013

antonkyle wrote: »

Some very valid points there. I like the idea of earning things. Depends how it is done. I fear it would become another part of the rich get richer.

Agreed. Earning the use of a dragon would be great, but what would you have to do? Locking behind achievements would be great, as long as it wasn't too high. Like, if getting a featured quest were a pre-requisite, that would leave out everyone who never even submits to Cryptic, as well as those that do but don't get picked.

Maybe use character level, as the foundry is unlocked at level 15, dragons are unlocked at level 60. Once most players reach level 60, they are less interested in "XP farming" and may use dragons in a more responsible manner.

Also, the idea of level gated quests is good too. Could be simple... once you have a level 60 character, you have access to making level 60 gated foundries, that include access to dragons. A level 60 foundry quest has no reason to be XP-heavy.

ambisinisterr · August 2013

Can't argue that one...
But at the same time...
*Eyes that Ioun Stone*

Perhaps not. But sadly, yes, they could make a fortune by selling dragons...
And TBH it wouldn't be that bad if they allowed authors to unlock it at Rank 20 Authoring or purchase it for some stupidly high amount like thirty bucks.

If your a fresh out of the gates author and want to get it for your first quest shell out the dough. If you're likely going to be a successful author you'll unlock it when you have enough experience with the tools to make a good quest (hopefully).

antonkyle · August 2013

moonchipz wrote: »

Get over your stupid fan girl dragon stuff

Whatever! I can't really be bothered with such comments. It's just rude. With your idea's we may as well include Dragons into the STO foundry to. Hell lets also add a Death Star to boot.

ambisinisterr · August 2013

zbkolde wrote: »

Agreed. Earning the use of a dragon would be great, but what would you have to do? Locking behind achievements would be great, as long as it wasn't too high. Like, if getting a featured quest were a pre-requisite, that would leave out everyone who never even submits to Cryptic, as well as those that do but don't get picked.

I would lock it behind Foundry Author Achievements. Minimum rank 20 but they could go as high as they like.

Personally I just don't want ever one star quest in the world to feature a dragon.

celantra · August 2013

Less important then the dragons themselves is that with the advent of dragons, we would actually start to see a true boss fight engine added to the foundry. While dragons would be nice and all, it is this boss engine that I think most of the author community really wants. Things with wings and tails that breathe fire are a secondary consideration, at least for me.

Foundry items do NOT belong on the zen store. While some think that this would okay, it is a slap in the face to the foundry authors who have poured so many hours into creating content for cryptic for free. It also goes against every statement made by the development team since early alpha of the foundry. For Cryptic to change this policy would have me seriously considering removing all my content and leaving the game.

zbkolde · August 2013

ambisinisterr wrote: »

I would lock it behind Foundry Author Achievements. Minimum rank 20 but they could go as high as they like.

Personally I just don't want ever one star quest in the world to feature a dragon.

I'm not sure what an author would have to do to reach rank 20. I've never submitted a quest to Cryptic, out of reluctance to lock myself out of my own quest (in the off chance it even got picked), unable to take care of any bugs that may arise. The one quest i've published has done pretty well on it's own, and i've gotten quite a few of the achievements. Without logging in (still patching

) i don't know what rank i would be or what would be needed for rank 20. I'm not the best author out here, and at the moment have no use for a dragon anyway, so i'm not trying to argue for my own sake. But as antonkyle said, it shouldn't be a "rich get richer" type of reward.

Edit: After logging in, i have two things to add. First, i've achieved DM Rank 3, though i can see quite a few other achievements i would be able to get without needing a featured quest. Secondly, it appears that DM Rank 10 is the highest possible rank, so wondering which Rank 20 you were referring to?

antonkyle · August 2013

zbkolde wrote: »

I've never submitted a quest to Cryptic, out of reluctance to lock myself out of my own quest (in the off chance it even got picked), unable to take care of any bugs that may arise.

This is a problem. I was lucky enough to get one for coming 2nd in the most recent competition. The response has been really good but it was a bit of a rush job to get it out and reviewed in time to enter. Wasn't sure if I could edit it while the competition was open. I'm dyslexic which means I often miss silly little mistakes in grammar and spelling. I would love to change them now which would only make the quest better but alas, I can't. It would be nice if there was a request an edit or something along them lines.

bluedarky · August 2013

chili1179 wrote: »

I'm sure if PWE had their way it would be a Zen store item.

antonkyle wrote: »

There is doubt about that!:(

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016471/User-Generated-Content-In-MMOs

39:07 or the How do you monetize authors option on the menu to the left.

littlegoofball1 · August 2013

ephiroll wrote: »

I'd like to see one zone for them. A mountain area with a few caves spread out housing a few different types of extremely power dragons who have minions and such that high level players could go 'hunt'.

I like your idea

antonkyle · August 2013

bluedarky wrote: »

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016471/User-Generated-Content-In-MMOs

39:07 or the How do you monetize authors option on the menu to the left.

Looks like an interesting video. I'm glad that Cryptic have no plans to do so. I think Cryptic and PWE probably differ in their opinions on this. Who knows. I will give it a better watch when the kids are in bed.

raphaeldisanto · August 2013

ambisinisterr wrote: »

I would lock it behind Foundry Author Achievements.

Probably a good thing I don't ever want dragons in my quests then

moonchipz · August 2013

Having to unlock assets for use in the foundry by either achievements or paying in the zen store would be a horrible idea. Remember, we're technically creating content for Cryptic. We should NOT have to pay them to do it.

The nice thing about the Foundry is everyone is limited to the same assets as everyone else. Meaning nobody is at a disadvantage, we're all on an even playing field. If you start making assets available to only highly rated authors, you'll make that playing field unbalanced and it will drive people away. Though I have no use for dragons personally, if the Foundry went in the direction of unlocking assets based on merit I'd be less motivated to develop any content and I'm sure many others would be too.

I'm glad Cryptic will not go in that direction.

The other thing people seem to forget, is the simplicity of the toolset. They want it to be able to be used by the lay person. If we start adding complicated features like scripting that'd be very intimidating to prospective authors that have no background in game design like most of us do. I've noticed the toolset is already intimidating as it is to new people.

Its a very fine balance that has to be maintained, even though the limits frustrate those of us who do have backgrounds in game design and are going nuts by the limitations.

celantra · August 2013

I really want to be nice when I say this, so imagine that your sweet old grandmother is telling you this, in her this is how you peel potatoes voice.

Please stop comparing the Foundry to the NWN toolset. They have absolutely nothing to do with one another. They are written for different platforms, circumstances, and environments. Just because they happen to share the name Neverwinter does not in anyway connect the two. It is doubtful you will ever see half the tools available in NWN, as that was a completely client side tool. The foundry is a completely server side tool.

They are apples and oranges, and while both taste sweet, an orange pie would be a disaster.

narayansingh · August 2013

antonkyle wrote: »

I think they would be put in many, many quests. I'm not all that bothered if people want them, everyone has their opinions. I just thought I'd throw mine out there to show that there is two sides to this. It's not like Boss encounters where everyone wants them.

Like I said, just don't ask for them using the games lore as a reason because it's wrong. Say something like 'I want Dragons because they are bad *** and awesome.'

IMHO both sides should stop using "lore" as a reason.

Narayan

koboldsmell88 · August 2013

narayansingh wrote: »

IMHO both sides should stop using "lore" as a reason.

Narayan

Here's my reason: It's Dungeons & DRAGONS! Not Campaigns & Kobolds, or Feywild & Fomorians.

What's the big deal with wanting Dragons?

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