I agree but CoS + Stealth = game destroying experience for a Devoted Cleric and Control Wizard.
I wouldn't go that far, if you dodge after the 4th dagger or so their damage will reset. They will also give their position away while throwing and moving towards them in range makes them targetable.
That said, I'd still be okay with only CoS breaking stealth and effects diminishing stealth gain too.
Is it just me or did some of the changes go live already? Lurkers graphic is gone on live and after 2 cn runs my dmg is in the crapper on my rogue. Thankfully I can just retire him and play one of my others, but the guilds been hurting for rogues lately as it is.
I agree but CoS + Stealth = game destroying experience for a Devoted Cleric and Control Wizard.
Especially now that I have noticed Rogues getting a bit smarter and realizing they can alternate between stealth and ItC.
I agree the Lurker's change was bad...and as I said I couldn't care less about melee attacks in stealth because if I keep moving I can at least survive...
But CoS + Stealth is inexcusable and needs to diminish the stealth meter or become a skill shot rather than auto aim. Again as far as I am concerned they can keep their +60% damage as long as CoS gets the knife.
I partly agree with you. i can understand frustration of being CoS by a stealth rogue in a fully engaged or preoccupied situation, im not a perma-stealth rogue and although i hate to see it if adjusting CoS alone i can live with that. But i wouldn't say its the game destroying experience for all, GF can block it, GWF can withstand it, and i think a CW has plenty of ways dealing with it at least in a 1v1 situation. DCs seem most vulnerable in these situation, especially when they could not heal themselves fast enough. So I do think DC class should be toned up a little. but its the only class i never played so i currently have no specific solution
Dear crucial991199,
do you ever make sense of your pvp correcting the rogue class completely abused as you can see here:
Vs Mage 12.5k GS and 21k life.
Daily Power :
Encounter Power :
Real PvP Neverwinter :
And Defensive Warrior specializing in KB, which affects distance and kills in 3 shots, all with a shield that completely immunizes the player controls and damage?
Or do you follow the same path as other MMO developers, leaving the sinking ship ? Cause it's been three months while it lasts
As a rogue player, I considered Lurker Assault did need some nerf, but the previous nerf was indeed too much. From the beginning I was hoping that they would only halve the damage, and I'm glad that they chose to do it instead of the useless 15% crit severity. This is a good point.
But I am more skeptical about giving up the At-will Stealth depletion. The perma-stealth rogue abuse needs to get solved, it should not be possible to remain stealth all day long, thus it needs to be fixed. There are many different possible ways to achieve it. I'm still confident cause the devs seem to be aware that it needs to get fixed, so they have my trust. I hope they will succeed.
Concerning Cloud of Steel, the main problem with that power is not the range nor the damage, it's the attack-speed. It's like a machine gun. It throws daggers way too fast and therefore it triggers criticals and tenebrous enchants way too easily. Should have a slow attack-speed.
Now maybe it's time to fix the dumb Tenebrous enchants, if you don't then it would simply mean that you don't want to kill the goose that lays golden eggs. I guess you abandoned the "Bound on Pick-up" drops you announced in the past because of that, too.
I implore you that was the only thing you should have done...
At least it's what should be applied to CoS.
I couldn't care less if rogues melee me in stealth because I can dodge that but I only have two dodges out of 8 CoS Strikes. As a cleric CoS from stealth is a death sentence. Reducing it to 8 will reduce the ability that they will take me from full to nothing purely with CoS but they can easily finish me off with no consequence by dumping 6-8 knives and an encounter and I only have two dodges to work with.
The changes will still make it better...
But as far as I am concerned you can give them back their full on Lurker's Assault as long as CoS reduces their stealth. CoS from stealth is my problem with them. Everything else I couldn't care less about.
You just dont understand the TR enough. the 8 charge nerf with the 50% nerf to LA is more than enough to balance the thing that insta gibs people. It doesnt matter if its a stealth spec rogue or not, with stealth+LA+CoS you kill anything pretty much.
There is no need to apply stealth drain on CoS or any at-will. 8 charges means its really easy to dodge it even if you dont spot it, with 12 charges it was harder, since the end damage would be much greater than what it is now. You lose out on 4 charges, that means you lose out on 4 buffs for the end damage. Dodging a few in between (not hard to dodge 2 knives with 1 dodge) means the TR loses even more buff charges.
A CW that can dodge 3 times will most likely avoid 4-6 knives, that means 2-4 knives hit. What we will see is, when CoS is used offensivly after patch it will be in conjunction with LA and stealth. Other than that it will serve as a kill shot on runners.
Without LA, CoS would only kill bad players, bad players is not something to balance a class around. With the changes to LA, CoS will do less damage with LA active post patch than what it does on live now without LA active.
Since 4 charges are gone, it does 66% of it's former damage, add in the 4 lacking stacks of the buff and it does less than that. Add 25% on 66% and you will still deal less damage than a live version of CoS.
So, there is no need for CoS to drain stealth, since it will do less than it's original damage, even with LA active.
Also, suggestion to the devs. Create PvP specific gear and chants, it would make your job 100 times easier when it comes to PvP balance.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You just dont understand the TR enough. the 8 charge nerf with the 50% nerf to LA is more than enough to balance the thing that insta gibs people. It doesnt matter if its a stealth spec rogue or not, with stealth+LA+CoS you kill anything pretty much.
Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't make them wrong or that they don't understand because your most likely biased opinion is different. Being able to do substantial ranged damage from the safety of stealth is just OP whether its 8 charges or 12. CoS draining stealth is merited.
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cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
edited August 2013
I'd give up all the stealth in the world for half my SE damage back. So frigging useless now. Then again I almost never fight in stealth anyway.
And i still have the -40% healing effect on my self -.- Why we don't give to Tr a shotgun, so they can kill as more fast -.- The nerf was a good idea, but now after 10 day of cring Tr on forum, people venting the idea to leave the game, what the cryptic did? A step back since the 80% of the player are Tr -.- Gz nice work -.- And i still have to go around and heal whit a crappy heal -.- an insane time on skill, and whit skill that do the damage of an ant -.- Thx for the change on the Dc class, just fix only Tr and leave the Dc alone. I wont see when there no one of us left in the server, how the hell you will do dungeon.
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cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
Dear crucial991199,
do you ever make sense of your pvp correcting the rogue class completely abused as you can see here:
Vs Mage 12.5k GS and 21k life.
Daily Power :
Encounter Power :
Real PvP Neverwinter :
And Defensive Warrior specializing in KB, which affects distance and kills in 3 shots, all with a shield that completely immunizes the player controls and damage?
Or do you follow the same path as other MMO developers, leaving the sinking ship ? Cause it's been three months while it lasts
Thank you !
He must have Tenes... because as a player TR without them I can tell you it's VERY hard to hit those numbers without enchants.
Tenebrous Lesser When striking a foe you have a chance to deal 1% of current Hit points as Necrotic damage.
Normal When striking a foe you have a chance to deal 2% of current Hit points as Necrotic damage.
Greater When striking a foe you have a chance to deal 3% of current Hit points as Necrotic damage.
Note: Multiple Tenebrous enchantments stack.
Note: The Tenebrous enchantment has a 10 second internal cooldown and 100% chance to trigger if not on cooldown.
Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't make them wrong or that they don't understand because your most likely biased opinion is different. Being able to do substantial ranged damage from the safety of stealth is just OP whether its 8 charges or 12. CoS draining stealth is merited.
You most likely only read the 3 lines of my post that you quoted, if you looked through the whole thing you'd see numbers actually backing up my statement. As I said, CoS on it's own is below 66% as effective after the nerf as it is now (fewer charges, fewer concentrated buffs), it's around 60% of its original power. Slap the LA nerf on that and your LA+stealth+CoS combo is as deadly as CoS is on it's own right now on live, if not slightly worse.
Why would you need stealth drain on CoS post patch? It wont kill much, it's significantly weaker, numbers dont lie. Most likely people wont waste it on LA after patch, it will be used as a finisher on runners as I said before, or as an opener when closing in on your target. So it is fixed and no need to nerf it more. CoS is the biggest issue with perma stealth, since when the TR goes face to face, you will see him, stealthed or not.
As I said, LA+stealth+CoS was not a stealth spec issue, it was a universal TR issue, it worked with every spec since LA puts the rogue in perma stealth during the CoS barrage.
Classes will defend vs CoS either by dodging, blocking, healing through it or just taking the damage after the patch. And regarding the CoS+LA+stealth combo, only bad players will die to it or get critically wounded. 8 charges is easy to avoid and considering the low damage even with LA up, taking a few of the knives wont be much of an issue.
Again, numbers dont lie.
And if you had read any of his previous posts regarding the TR nerf, you would understand why I said he didnt know enough about the TR class. In one post he was talking about sub 60 PvP as a GF vs a TR, and bringing up perma stealth. And in another he argued about how DCs die to easy to rogues, when all other classes destroy them just as fast.
But I bet you are a disgruntled CW or DC that has died a time too many by the dagger of a TR. If you are a GWF or GF I have no clue how you can justify arguing that TRs are OP, you should chew them up and spit them out with little to no issues.
This is so good IDK about the rest but LA being 15/20/25% is a great point to be at 5/10/15% was a tad low on test shard and yes TR's do need nerfs and this change shows it's for the best I'm happy with Stealth and LA at this point! Thankx Cryptic, plus I can deal with 8 charge's of CoS thats no big deal
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firesoul31Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 34
You most likely only read the 3 lines of my post that you quoted, if you looked through the whole thing you'd see numbers actually backing up my statement. As I said, CoS on it's own is below 66% as effective after the nerf as it is now (fewer charges, fewer concentrated buffs), it's around 60% of its original power. Slap the LA nerf on that and your LA+stealth+CoS combo is as deadly as CoS is on it's own right now on live, if not slightly worse.
Why would you need stealth drain on CoS post patch? It wont kill much, it's significantly weaker, numbers dont lie. Most likely people wont waste it on LA after patch, it will be used as a finisher on runners as I said before, or as an opener when closing in on your target. So it is fixed and no need to nerf it more. CoS is the biggest issue with perma stealth, since when the TR goes face to face, you will see him, stealthed or not.
As I said, LA+stealth+CoS was not a stealth spec issue, it was a universal TR issue, it worked with every spec since LA puts the rogue in perma stealth during the CoS barrage.
Classes will defend vs CoS either by dodging, blocking, healing through it or just taking the damage after the patch. And regarding the CoS+LA+stealth combo, only bad players will die to it or get critically wounded. 8 charges is easy to avoid and considering the low damage even with LA up, taking a few of the knives wont be much of an issue.
Again, numbers dont lie.
And if you had read any of his previous posts regarding the TR nerf, you would understand why I said he didnt know enough about the TR class. In one post he was talking about sub 60 PvP as a GF vs a TR, and bringing up perma stealth. And in another he argued about how DCs die to easy to rogues, when all other classes destroy them just as fast.
But I bet you are a disgruntled CW or DC that has died a time too many by the dagger of a TR. If you are a GWF or GF I have no clue how you can justify arguing that TRs are OP, you should chew them up and spit them out with little to no issues.
I'm not knocking your argument at all, but as a general rule of thumb all numbers can lie, it just matters in which perspective you take it. I'm sure somebody could come here and have numbers slanted a certain way to make it look like TR's are gods among mortals.
Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, just that numbers can ALWAYS be subverted to prove one point or another, depending on how viewed and in what context.
Still, I like the reversal of Cryptic's stance. Looking forward to see how the rest pans out.
Playing, paying & Coding - My take on Neverwinter, mods be darned
Opened up comments, because I would love to hear what everyone says, even the naysayers. http://goo.gl/TiX1kO
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kingculexMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
There's a lot of validity to what you're saying, but I'm not sure it's going to get the devs' attentions since I don't think these nerfs had much to do with pvp or the incessant whining but more to do with TRs being OP in boss fights. CoS isn't really a big factor in that while LA is what's used to burn down bosses so had to be crippled. Only instead of reducing TR effectiveness they clumsily destroyed it.
So now it's back to a straight up damage nerf on LA, much the same as they did to SE.
Although in truth the real culprit in these Epic farming runs is the teneb stacking that allows LA to be so devastating. Most TRs don't have those and aren't anywhere near as OP. Nerf tenebs and problem solved, plus PVP will also be much more balanced.
You are completely correct. Only a minor portion of the TR community has Tenebrous enchantments. Let alone multiple Greater Tenebrous enchantments. The devs should make it to where the Tenebrous enchantments do not stack instead of nerfing TRs. It is a bad idea to punish the whole TR community simply because of a few Trs players.
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
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kingculexMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Dear crucial991199,
do you ever make sense of your pvp correcting the rogue class completely abused as you can see here:
Vs Mage 12.5k GS and 21k life.
Daily Power :
Encounter Power :
Real PvP Neverwinter :
And Defensive Warrior specializing in KB, which affects distance and kills in 3 shots, all with a shield that completely immunizes the player controls and damage?
Or do you follow the same path as other MMO developers, leaving the sinking ship ? Cause it's been three months while it lasts
Thank you !
All I can say is WHAT THE HELL! Those numbers are insane. It must be like the other team was dropping like flies. I have to wonder if the other team was using Green or Blue gear instead of Purple. I have seen some numbers close to that but with more TR deaths simply because the other team had Green or Blue gear and failed to work as a team. To bad you covered up the other kills for your team. If the other kills were near to the 37 the TR had then it would be easier to understand the numbers and explain them. That TR had to have a damage build with Tenebrous enchantments and Excellent gear. Only a minority of the TR community is able to pull these numbers. Look at the numbers the Trs on the other team had when the fight was done. Did the other team not even know how to dodge or run when the TR was in striking distance?
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
I'm not knocking your argument at all, but as a general rule of thumb all numbers can lie, it just matters in which perspective you take it. I'm sure somebody could come here and have numbers slanted a certain way to make it look like TR's are gods among mortals.
Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, just that numbers can ALWAYS be subverted to prove one point or another, depending on how viewed and in what context.
Still, I like the reversal of Cryptic's stance. Looking forward to see how the rest pans out.
I dont see how the numbers posted by PWE/Cryptic can lie when reposted, it's another thing if people make bad calculations, at which point you can correct them. I didnt however. I didnt use any made up numbers, just what was there in the patch notes.
Only way they can lie is if they are calculated in the wrong way, but this is 5th grade math really and the difference is quite obvious.
No matter how you look at it, LA+CoS+Stealth will never surpass even CoS as it is on live. Since it's pretty much mathematically impossible. And the combo will never get close to the old way the combo was.
It's good they did some rethinking and decided on a sensible solution that to me doesnt seem very bad at all. But nerfing it further in anyway is very much unneeded until we see how it preforms on live, since PTR are very limited.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You most likely only read the 3 lines of my post that you quoted, if you looked through the whole thing you'd see numbers actually backing up my statement. As I said, CoS on it's own is below 66% as effective after the nerf as it is now (fewer charges, fewer concentrated buffs), it's around 60% of its original power. Slap the LA nerf on that and your LA+stealth+CoS combo is as deadly as CoS is on it's own right now on live, if not slightly worse.
Why would you need stealth drain on CoS post patch? It wont kill much, it's significantly weaker, numbers dont lie. Most likely people wont waste it on LA after patch, it will be used as a finisher on runners as I said before, or as an opener when closing in on your target. So it is fixed and no need to nerf it more. CoS is the biggest issue with perma stealth, since when the TR goes face to face, you will see him, stealthed or not.
As I said, LA+stealth+CoS was not a stealth spec issue, it was a universal TR issue, it worked with every spec since LA puts the rogue in perma stealth during the CoS barrage.
Classes will defend vs CoS either by dodging, blocking, healing through it or just taking the damage after the patch. And regarding the CoS+LA+stealth combo, only bad players will die to it or get critically wounded. 8 charges is easy to avoid and considering the low damage even with LA up, taking a few of the knives wont be much of an issue.
Again, numbers dont lie.
And if you had read any of his previous posts regarding the TR nerf, you would understand why I said he didnt know enough about the TR class. In one post he was talking about sub 60 PvP as a GF vs a TR, and bringing up perma stealth. And in another he argued about how DCs die to easy to rogues, when all other classes destroy them just as fast.
But I bet you are a disgruntled CW or DC that has died a time too many by the dagger of a TR. If you are a GWF or GF I have no clue how you can justify arguing that TRs are OP, you should chew them up and spit them out with little to no issues.
Oh I read it all and it is just a matter of your opinion differing from others. You believe that the damage is insignificant, whereas I believe any damage done from the safety of stealth with limited to no repercussions is not insignificant. Everyone is welcome to their own opinions on the matter. I am also well aware of the TR's capabilities and what can be done with limited CoS charges because I play the class and have been leveling an int rogue.
Opinions are like anuses. Everyone has one and no matter how hard you try some still might think yours stinks, but making assumptions usually only makes an as$ out of U and mptions..
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited August 2013
IMO it doesn't matter how much you reduce CoS charges and damage because smart rogues who alternate ItC and Stealth can't be countered by Control Wizards or Devoted Clerics.
Of course if the rogue comes within melee range he will get chain CC'd by a Control Wizard but that is why ItC exists, however a Devoted Cleric can do nothing to a rogue who is smart enough to alternate ItC and stealth.
At the very best it gives them more time to survive, yay...but as a cleric I still can't do anything to survive the encounter. I can fight til I die (still quickly) or I can run away (worse than standing and dieing in many regards)
As long as rogues have the option to burst down most/all of Control Wizard and Devoted Cleric HP with CoS without any reprecussions the PvP will be completely out of wack. As it stands the best chance for the two support-like classes to survive is to be supported by rogue's smokebomb and to me it just doesn't make sense that a support class has to rely on so much support from the "glass cannon" class.
IMO it doesn't matter how much you reduce CoS charges and damage because smart rogues who alternate ItC and Stealth can't be countered by Control Wizards or Devoted Clerics.
Of course if the rogue comes within melee range he will get chain CC'd by a Control Wizard but that is why ItC exists, however a Devoted Cleric can do nothing to a rogue who is smart enough to alternate ItC and stealth.
At the very best it gives them more time to survive, yay...but as a cleric I still can't do anything to survive the encounter. I can fight til I die (still quickly) or I can run away (worse than standing and dieing in many regards)
As long as rogues have the option to burst down most/all of Control Wizard and Devoted Cleric HP with CoS without any reprecussions the PvP will be completely out of wack. As it stands the best chance for the two support-like classes to survive is to be supported by rogue's smokebomb and to me it just doesn't make sense that a support class has to rely on so much support from the "glass cannon" class.
Instead of asking for a NERF of a class, why not ask for a BOOST of your own class.
Special attention to your statement, "Cleric can do NOTHING to a rogue"
Cleric can do WHAT exactly to any another class for that matter? Why ONLY rogue? U drop gwfs? Gfs? Post a vid or something please, i'd LOVE to see a cleric drop a GF....
Seems to me that you want to rack up KILLS with your cleric? REALLY?
To each his own. SO, why not ask for a buff to cleric, instead of a nerf to rogue. YOUR class is underpowered, doesn't mean the rest must be nerfed to your level...
PITY,REGRET, AND MERCY are just EXCUSES for the strong not to kill the weak!
After the SE nerf only 30% of rogues use it in PvP and 0.1% in PvE, but if the LA is nerf... 0.0000001% of rogues will use it or no one will use it at all. Yes you'll get a 25% Bonus damage in 10 seconds, but I think if you will sum all the 25% bonus damage you have dealt, Bloodbath or Whirlwind of Blades would be more worth using. In PvP SE would be effective for tanky foes and for KS. Bloodbath would be effective too because you'll be invulnerable and can chase enemies in PvP. Whirlwind of Blades is the best for PvE because it deals massive damage, an aoe attack, and gives bonus power, but not worth using for soloing a Boss. While courage breaker.... who needs that when you have bloodbath or SE for PvP and WoB in PvE. LA with only 25%, will not be good in PvP anymore because you can't rly attack the enemy continuosly in 10 secs and if you get CC ur LA is wasted while in PvE 25% bonus damage isn't enough, bloodbath(for soloing boss) or WoB(for adds) will be still better. Rest in peace... LA... Rest in peace.:(
@Ambi & Nuke: You are looking at it in a very odd way. Yes a TR can kill someone from range without getting seen, but it wont be one bit effective post patch. Pre patch it was seriously OP, if you had LA ready you could kill anyone you wanted, or I should say any CW, DC or visible TR.
Post patch the combo wont go past the damage of the old CoS, the nerfs to CoS and LA wont allow it. The barrage will also last much shorter. In order to kill someone with CoS post patch you need to face a really bad or passive player.
A DC will be able to heal through it without any issue whatsoever, remember what a joke CoS is on live on its own if you stand in AS? And as I said earlier Ambi, your problem isnt rogues on live, its pretty much any class when you play a DC, in short, the DC needs some major buffs. Also the "burst" you speak of came from LA+stealth+CoS, resulting in perma stealth and 65% (if you wear skulker gear) bonus damage to your attacks. Now post patch that will be 30% damage, thats more than a 50% nerf in damage. And thats only if you count the LA nerf, add the 33% (or more) nerf on CoS and you dont even do the regular CoS damage you have now on live.
If you die to regular CoS on live I dont know what to tell you... you probably should avoid PvP in that case or learn your class better.
It will take ages to kill someone at range while in stealth post patch, it wont be effective. You will do nothing to contribute to your team if you're gonna CoS, run off, wait for recharges, run back, CoS, run off etc. As I said, looking at CoS post nerf, it will be a great opener or chase skill.
So now we get to the rest of the perma stealth "issue", which there is none. If you are in melee, you can spot them, hit them, kill them, avoid them. A CW can keep you locked down long enough to kill you, without being able to do anything in return, should we take away the key feature of CWs too? Or the GF/GWF, which both currently have better control, damage and anti-control things than CCWs while retaining much higher survivability.
Think about what needs to be buffed instead of nerfed.
I agree but CoS + Stealth = game destroying experience for a Devoted Cleric and Control Wizard.
Especially now that I have noticed Rogues getting a bit smarter and realizing they can alternate between stealth and ItC.
I agree the Lurker's change was bad...and as I said I couldn't care less about melee attacks in stealth because if I keep moving I can at least survive...
But CoS + Stealth is inexcusable and needs to diminish the stealth meter or become a skill shot rather than auto aim. Again as far as I am concerned they can keep their +60% damage as long as CoS gets the knife.
What a shock you are here complaining about the devs reversing their decision on some of the nerfs instead of asking for them to buff your class. Wait, it is not a shock because you were "dancing for joy" over the proposed nerfs. Those posts can still be found if someone looks for them. Your opinion that CoS with stealth is game destroying is wrong because most control wizards know to move and dodge out of range. Devoted clerics simply heal themselves because the damage is minor. I think there is something wrong with the way you are playing or your gear if you are so easily killed. Devoted clerics who are geared properly and know how to use their class are still a strong challenge in PVP. I do not see you complaining about GWFs or GFs or CW who can take down Devoted Clerics as well. It seems that Gfs and CWs have abilities to push Devoted Clerics out of their heal circles so they can be killed more easily. In my opinion, it is rather bad to find a forum moderator who is so biased against TRs instead of staying unbiased. This nerf is still stupid because it hurts the entire TR community instead of just the few who abuse the TRs abilities.
@Ambi & Nuke: You are looking at it in a very odd way. Yes a TR can kill someone from range without getting seen, but it wont be one bit effective post patch. Pre patch it was seriously OP, if you had LA ready you could kill anyone you wanted, or I should say any CW, DC or visible TR.
Post patch the combo wont go past the damage of the old CoS, the nerfs to CoS and LA wont allow it. The barrage will also last much shorter. In order to kill someone with CoS post patch you need to face a really bad or passive player.
A DC will be able to heal through it without any issue whatsoever, remember what a joke CoS is on live on its own if you stand in AS? And as I said earlier Ambi, your problem isnt rogues on live, its pretty much any class when you play a DC, in short, the DC needs some major buffs. Also the "burst" you speak of came from LA+stealth+CoS, resulting in perma stealth and 65% (if you wear skulker gear) bonus damage to your attacks. Now post patch that will be 30% damage, thats more than a 50% nerf in damage. And thats only if you count the LA nerf, add the 33% (or more) nerf on CoS and you dont even do the regular CoS damage you have now on live.
If you die to regular CoS on live I dont know what to tell you... you probably should avoid PvP in that case or learn your class better.
It will take ages to kill someone at range while in stealth post patch, it wont be effective. You will do nothing to contribute to your team if you're gonna CoS, run off, wait for recharges, run back, CoS, run off etc. As I said, looking at CoS post nerf, it will be a great opener or chase skill.
So now we get to the rest of the perma stealth "issue", which there is none. If you are in melee, you can spot them, hit them, kill them, avoid them. A CW can keep you locked down long enough to kill you, without being able to do anything in return, should we take away the key feature of CWs too? Or the GF/GWF, which both currently have better control, damage and anti-control things than CCWs while retaining much higher survivability.
Think about what needs to be buffed instead of nerfed.
I could not have said it better. It takes a player who is a poor player or geared wrong to die from CoS on the live server. They should give up playing PVP or get better gear or improve their skills. You are correct that a TR can be seen at close range when in stealth and can be locked down. Permastealth are annoying at best and can be defeated if you learn how too. People should be calling for buffs/fixes instead of crying for nerfs.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited August 2013
The only goal in winning a fight is to remove the person from the fight.
That could mean they die...
Or it could mean you force them to run away.
If the only option Clerics and Wizrds have against the CoS from stealth is to run they might as well be dead. It's the same end result.
And I don't complain about GF's or GWF because contrary to your assumptions I can play. Guardian Fighters are a royal pain in my rear end and I do feel their prone durations are a bit obsene but while there's a good chance I will die when fighting either class I can still give them a run for their money.
TR's from stealth have me as a sitting duck with no means to contend with the situation. I die dodging as often as I can with no means to retaliate or I run thus giving the rogue the same result as my death.
However do note that I am entitled to an opinion and the freedom to express it. Biased means something completely different.
And tell me, how many of you saying DC's can heal through CoS actually play Devoted Clerics?
Because the truth of those claims and the reality are far different. There is a small minority of Devoted Clerics that seem to be able to take a large beating in PvP but that is not something the average Devoted Cleric does and it has little to do with the quality of gear and more to do with a specific build or strategy.
And I have a hunch that it is a PvP build which is likely pretty ineffective in PvE.
However do note that I am entitled to an opinion and the freedom to express it. Biased means something completely different.
The definition of biased is:
biased past participle, past tense of bias (Verb)
Verb
1. Show prejudice for or against (someone or something) unfairly: "the tests were biased against women"; "a biased view of the world".
2. Influence unfairly to invoke favoritism: "her story failed to bias the jury".
Since you are calling for only TRs to be nerfed this makes it appear you are prejudice against TRs . When it comes to influencing things unfairly to invoke favoritism an individual simply has to read the threads where your quoted posts are located to see you may have done this as well. Posters are not supposed to discuss punishments on the forum so I will not say further on this subject. You are entitled to your opinion but I would expect you would hold yourself to a higher level since you are a moderator. “Dancing for joy” over a nerf that hurts a significant number of players is in rather poor taste to be honest in my opinion.
There is a small minority of Devoted Clerics that seem to be able to take a large beating in PvP but that is not something the average Devoted Cleric does and it has little to do with the quality of gear and more to do with a specific build or strategy.
And I have a hunch that it is a PvP build which is likely pretty ineffective in PvE.
You are probably correct that it is a small number of DCs that can do this in PVP. You should probably be learning to do this or asking for DCs to be buffed backup because the nerf to them was unfair. It is also a minority of TRs who are able to one shot people and kill with CoS + Stealth. The entire TR community is going to be hurt for the actions of the few if these nerfs go live. The entire TR community should start calling for NERFs since they get killed easily in PVP because they are heavy damage but squishy and easily killed.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited August 2013
You didn't bold the key word: unfairly.
There's nothing unfair about my opinion. I feel like I have a fair shot facing every class besides a Trickster Rogue hence why I don't call for changes to the other classes. As somebody else put it Trickster Rogues have the best of everything besides physical defense which they counteract with a lot of very powerful defensive abilities.
As a Cleric I have little damage and truly very few defensive abilities. I call myself a lightning rod as a good team will focus me and focus me hard and the only thing I can do is hope they blow the best of their abilities on me rather than on my team.
And for the most part the other classes are pretty balanced. Each class has something which could probably do with some adjustment but the only class which seems to have the outright best of everything is the rogue. It does require a bit of playskill to use but a half decent rogue can easily render control wizards and clerics completely ineffective.
And it's not just enchants. They help but their not the main problem.
And as for going out and copying some other person's build which actually works in PvP...
The thing is I do just fine in PvP 1v1 against any class besides a trickster rogue. I won't often win but I will be able to hold my own for a decent period of time...except against rogues...who by chance really only die if they manage to commit a play error and allow themselves to get caught in a CC Chain.
Rogues need a paper to deal with their rock. Every other class has another class which they just can't deal with. Rogues are the only class which is viable against any other class with minimal risk of death. And it's because of that they have to be toned down and to me the problem is the fact in decent hands they become completely untargetable.
@Ambi & Nuke: You are looking at it in a very odd way. Yes a TR can kill someone from range without getting seen, but it wont be one bit effective post patch. Pre patch it was seriously OP, if you had LA ready you could kill anyone you wanted, or I should say any CW, DC or visible TR.
Post patch the combo wont go past the damage of the old CoS, the nerfs to CoS and LA wont allow it. The barrage will also last much shorter. In order to kill someone with CoS post patch you need to face a really bad or passive player.
A DC will be able to heal through it without any issue whatsoever, remember what a joke CoS is on live on its own if you stand in AS? And as I said earlier Ambi, your problem isnt rogues on live, its pretty much any class when you play a DC, in short, the DC needs some major buffs. Also the "burst" you speak of came from LA+stealth+CoS, resulting in perma stealth and 65% (if you wear skulker gear) bonus damage to your attacks. Now post patch that will be 30% damage, thats more than a 50% nerf in damage. And thats only if you count the LA nerf, add the 33% (or more) nerf on CoS and you dont even do the regular CoS damage you have now on live.
If you die to regular CoS on live I dont know what to tell you... you probably should avoid PvP in that case or learn your class better.
It will take ages to kill someone at range while in stealth post patch, it wont be effective. You will do nothing to contribute to your team if you're gonna CoS, run off, wait for recharges, run back, CoS, run off etc. As I said, looking at CoS post nerf, it will be a great opener or chase skill.
So now we get to the rest of the perma stealth "issue", which there is none. If you are in melee, you can spot them, hit them, kill them, avoid them. A CW can keep you locked down long enough to kill you, without being able to do anything in return, should we take away the key feature of CWs too? Or the GF/GWF, which both currently have better control, damage and anti-control things than CCWs while retaining much higher survivability.
Think about what needs to be buffed instead of nerfed.
Since you seem to think repeating yourself will somehow make your opinion more valid and override my own, I'll just place this here to save myself sometime by providing some added color, bold larger sized letters.
Oh I read it all and it is just a matter of your opinion differing from others. You believe that the damage is insignificant, whereas I believe any damage done from the safety of stealth with limited to no repercussions is not insignificant.Everyone is welcome to their own opinions on the matter. I am also well aware of the TR's capabilities and what can be done with limited CoS charges because I play the class and have been leveling an int rogue.
Opinions are like anuses. Everyone has one and no matter how hard you try some still might think yours stinks, but making assumptions usually only makes an as$ out of U and mptions..
A CW can keep you locked down long enough to kill you, without being able to do anything in return, should we take away the key feature of CWs too? Or the GF/GWF, which both currently have better control, damage and anti-control things than CCWs while retaining much higher survivability.
Are CW's providing any damage in a situation where they are unseen and immune to all range damage? Do they have any abilities such as ITC that allows them to be immune to all CC, 100% deflect, or dodge status that would render any forms of CC used on it useless? You seem to have left out the CC available to the TR (including a 40' ranged high damage stun with multiple charges) while retaining higher survivability with encounters such as ITC or key feature of stealth.
Before you make any comparisons of nerfing another class feature such as a CW to a TR's like you did, there needs to be some sort of even keel between the two. To which there is no class feature like stealth that allows for such optimized gameplay when utilized properly.
There's nothing unfair about my opinion. I feel like I have a fair shot facing every class besides a Trickster Rogue hence why I don't call for changes to the other classes. As somebody else put it Trickster Rogues have the best of everything besides physical defense which they counteract with a lot of very powerful defensive abilities.
As a Cleric I have little damage and truly very few defensive abilities. I call myself a lightning rod as a good team will focus me and focus me hard and the only thing I can do is hope they blow the best of their abilities on me rather than on my team.
And for the most part the other classes are pretty balanced. Each class has something which could probably do with some adjustment but the only class which seems to have the outright best of everything is the rogue. It does require a bit of playskill to use but a half decent rogue can easily render control wizards and clerics completely ineffective.
And it's not just enchants. They help but their not the main problem.
And as for going out and copying some other person's build which actually works in PvP...
The thing is I do just fine in PvP 1v1 against any class besides a trickster rogue. I won't often win but I will be able to hold my own for a decent period of time...except against rogues...who by chance really only die if they manage to commit a play error and allow themselves to get caught in a CC Chain.
Rogues need a paper to deal with their rock. Every other class has another class which they just can't deal with. Rogues are the only class which is viable against any other class with minimal risk of death. And it's because of that they have to be toned down and to me the problem is the fact in decent hands they become completely untargetable.
Directly from a biased individual that does not know anything about Rogues. Minimal risk of death? Rogues are more squishy and easier to kill than DCs. They do have teeth and stealth to help compensate for the lack of healing and astral shield. Each class has its advantages and disadvantages. If you have a good GF and a good DC in a party they can dominate PVP. The ability of GFs to prone players also affects rogues and most GFs can easily kill a rogue. GWFs also have the ability to stun rogues and kill them. Clearly you need to take your own advice and actually play as rogue. I am not calling for GFs and Gwfs to be nerfed like you are calling for TRs to be nerfed. Any nerfs period to any classes would decrease the challenge of PVP and decrease the fun that is PVP. Honestly there is something wrong if you are any class except for a DC and you are unable to kill a rogue. The rogue could have higher gear or be better skilled at his class. That simply means you should improve your skills and get better gear. DCs should be buffed back up to the way they were before the unfair nerf to them. Also, remember that PVP is a team thing in this game so you should be able to stay alive long enough for your team to come help you if you are DC. If you can not stay alive then something is very wrong with the way you are playing or your gear. i rest my case.:)
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Since you seem to think repeating yourself will somehow make your opinion more valid and override my own, I'll just place this here to save myself sometime by providing some added color, bold larger sized letters.
Are CW's providing any damage in a situation where they are unseen and immune to all range damage? Do they have any abilities such as ITC that allows them to be immune to all CC, 100% deflect, or dodge status that would render any forms of CC used on it useless? You seem to have left out the CC available to the TR (including a 40' ranged high damage stun with multiple charges) while retaining higher survivability with encounters such as ITC or key feature of stealth.
Before you make any comparisons of nerfing another class feature such as a CW to a TR's like you did, there needs to be some sort of even keel between the two. To which there is no class feature like stealth that allows for such optimized gameplay when utilized properly.
Referring to nukeyoo's post. Lets see: Do TRs have the ability to kill whole mobs the way CWs can? No? Path of blades does very little damage to mobs compared to CWs. Do TRs have the ability to shield themselves and others the way DCs can? No? Do Trs have the ability to heal others around them the way DCs can? No? Do TRs have the ability to block almost any attack with a shield the way GFs can? No? Do Trs have the same armor as GWFs? No?
I can go down the entire list of the differences between classes but it would be a waste of time. There are several different class feature that allows for such optimized gameplay when utilized properly in each class and it is what makes the classes unique. The idea of nerfing one class or another class will simply make all the classes the same and remove any variety in the game that would end up hurting the game. In using nukeyoo's post it would appear there is no point to comparing TRs with any of the other classes because each class has its own unique advantages and disadvantages. But wait, it seems to be exactly what people calling for nerfs are doing. I will stop with this post because it is becoming unproductive and I have already stated my opinion.
Comments
I wouldn't go that far, if you dodge after the 4th dagger or so their damage will reset. They will also give their position away while throwing and moving towards them in range makes them targetable.
That said, I'd still be okay with only CoS breaking stealth and effects diminishing stealth gain too.
I partly agree with you. i can understand frustration of being CoS by a stealth rogue in a fully engaged or preoccupied situation, im not a perma-stealth rogue and although i hate to see it if adjusting CoS alone i can live with that. But i wouldn't say its the game destroying experience for all, GF can block it, GWF can withstand it, and i think a CW has plenty of ways dealing with it at least in a 1v1 situation. DCs seem most vulnerable in these situation, especially when they could not heal themselves fast enough. So I do think DC class should be toned up a little. but its the only class i never played so i currently have no specific solution
do you ever make sense of your pvp correcting the rogue class completely abused as you can see here:
Vs Mage 12.5k GS and 21k life.
Daily Power :
Encounter Power :
Real PvP Neverwinter :
And Defensive Warrior specializing in KB, which affects distance and kills in 3 shots, all with a shield that completely immunizes the player controls and damage?
Or do you follow the same path as other MMO developers, leaving the sinking ship ? Cause it's been three months while it lasts
Thank you !
As a rogue player, I considered Lurker Assault did need some nerf, but the previous nerf was indeed too much. From the beginning I was hoping that they would only halve the damage, and I'm glad that they chose to do it instead of the useless 15% crit severity. This is a good point.
But I am more skeptical about giving up the At-will Stealth depletion. The perma-stealth rogue abuse needs to get solved, it should not be possible to remain stealth all day long, thus it needs to be fixed. There are many different possible ways to achieve it. I'm still confident cause the devs seem to be aware that it needs to get fixed, so they have my trust. I hope they will succeed.
Concerning Cloud of Steel, the main problem with that power is not the range nor the damage, it's the attack-speed. It's like a machine gun. It throws daggers way too fast and therefore it triggers criticals and tenebrous enchants way too easily. Should have a slow attack-speed.
Now maybe it's time to fix the dumb Tenebrous enchants, if you don't then it would simply mean that you don't want to kill the goose that lays golden eggs. I guess you abandoned the "Bound on Pick-up" drops you announced in the past because of that, too.
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
You just dont understand the TR enough. the 8 charge nerf with the 50% nerf to LA is more than enough to balance the thing that insta gibs people. It doesnt matter if its a stealth spec rogue or not, with stealth+LA+CoS you kill anything pretty much.
There is no need to apply stealth drain on CoS or any at-will. 8 charges means its really easy to dodge it even if you dont spot it, with 12 charges it was harder, since the end damage would be much greater than what it is now. You lose out on 4 charges, that means you lose out on 4 buffs for the end damage. Dodging a few in between (not hard to dodge 2 knives with 1 dodge) means the TR loses even more buff charges.
A CW that can dodge 3 times will most likely avoid 4-6 knives, that means 2-4 knives hit. What we will see is, when CoS is used offensivly after patch it will be in conjunction with LA and stealth. Other than that it will serve as a kill shot on runners.
Without LA, CoS would only kill bad players, bad players is not something to balance a class around. With the changes to LA, CoS will do less damage with LA active post patch than what it does on live now without LA active.
Since 4 charges are gone, it does 66% of it's former damage, add in the 4 lacking stacks of the buff and it does less than that. Add 25% on 66% and you will still deal less damage than a live version of CoS.
So, there is no need for CoS to drain stealth, since it will do less than it's original damage, even with LA active.
Also, suggestion to the devs. Create PvP specific gear and chants, it would make your job 100 times easier when it comes to PvP balance.
Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't make them wrong or that they don't understand because your most likely biased opinion is different. Being able to do substantial ranged damage from the safety of stealth is just OP whether its 8 charges or 12. CoS draining stealth is merited.
He must have Tenes... because as a player TR without them I can tell you it's VERY hard to hit those numbers without enchants.
Tenebrous Lesser When striking a foe you have a chance to deal 1% of current Hit points as Necrotic damage.
Normal When striking a foe you have a chance to deal 2% of current Hit points as Necrotic damage.
Greater When striking a foe you have a chance to deal 3% of current Hit points as Necrotic damage.
Note: Multiple Tenebrous enchantments stack.
Note: The Tenebrous enchantment has a 10 second internal cooldown and 100% chance to trigger if not on cooldown.
You most likely only read the 3 lines of my post that you quoted, if you looked through the whole thing you'd see numbers actually backing up my statement. As I said, CoS on it's own is below 66% as effective after the nerf as it is now (fewer charges, fewer concentrated buffs), it's around 60% of its original power. Slap the LA nerf on that and your LA+stealth+CoS combo is as deadly as CoS is on it's own right now on live, if not slightly worse.
Why would you need stealth drain on CoS post patch? It wont kill much, it's significantly weaker, numbers dont lie. Most likely people wont waste it on LA after patch, it will be used as a finisher on runners as I said before, or as an opener when closing in on your target. So it is fixed and no need to nerf it more. CoS is the biggest issue with perma stealth, since when the TR goes face to face, you will see him, stealthed or not.
As I said, LA+stealth+CoS was not a stealth spec issue, it was a universal TR issue, it worked with every spec since LA puts the rogue in perma stealth during the CoS barrage.
Classes will defend vs CoS either by dodging, blocking, healing through it or just taking the damage after the patch. And regarding the CoS+LA+stealth combo, only bad players will die to it or get critically wounded. 8 charges is easy to avoid and considering the low damage even with LA up, taking a few of the knives wont be much of an issue.
Again, numbers dont lie.
And if you had read any of his previous posts regarding the TR nerf, you would understand why I said he didnt know enough about the TR class. In one post he was talking about sub 60 PvP as a GF vs a TR, and bringing up perma stealth. And in another he argued about how DCs die to easy to rogues, when all other classes destroy them just as fast.
But I bet you are a disgruntled CW or DC that has died a time too many by the dagger of a TR. If you are a GWF or GF I have no clue how you can justify arguing that TRs are OP, you should chew them up and spit them out with little to no issues.
I'm not knocking your argument at all, but as a general rule of thumb all numbers can lie, it just matters in which perspective you take it. I'm sure somebody could come here and have numbers slanted a certain way to make it look like TR's are gods among mortals.
Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, just that numbers can ALWAYS be subverted to prove one point or another, depending on how viewed and in what context.
Still, I like the reversal of Cryptic's stance. Looking forward to see how the rest pans out.
Opened up comments, because I would love to hear what everyone says, even the naysayers.
http://goo.gl/TiX1kO
You are completely correct. Only a minor portion of the TR community has Tenebrous enchantments. Let alone multiple Greater Tenebrous enchantments. The devs should make it to where the Tenebrous enchantments do not stack instead of nerfing TRs. It is a bad idea to punish the whole TR community simply because of a few Trs players.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
All I can say is WHAT THE HELL! Those numbers are insane. It must be like the other team was dropping like flies. I have to wonder if the other team was using Green or Blue gear instead of Purple. I have seen some numbers close to that but with more TR deaths simply because the other team had Green or Blue gear and failed to work as a team. To bad you covered up the other kills for your team. If the other kills were near to the 37 the TR had then it would be easier to understand the numbers and explain them. That TR had to have a damage build with Tenebrous enchantments and Excellent gear. Only a minority of the TR community is able to pull these numbers. Look at the numbers the Trs on the other team had when the fight was done. Did the other team not even know how to dodge or run when the TR was in striking distance?
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
I dont see how the numbers posted by PWE/Cryptic can lie when reposted, it's another thing if people make bad calculations, at which point you can correct them. I didnt however. I didnt use any made up numbers, just what was there in the patch notes.
Only way they can lie is if they are calculated in the wrong way, but this is 5th grade math really and the difference is quite obvious.
No matter how you look at it, LA+CoS+Stealth will never surpass even CoS as it is on live. Since it's pretty much mathematically impossible. And the combo will never get close to the old way the combo was.
It's good they did some rethinking and decided on a sensible solution that to me doesnt seem very bad at all. But nerfing it further in anyway is very much unneeded until we see how it preforms on live, since PTR are very limited.
Oh I read it all and it is just a matter of your opinion differing from others. You believe that the damage is insignificant, whereas I believe any damage done from the safety of stealth with limited to no repercussions is not insignificant. Everyone is welcome to their own opinions on the matter. I am also well aware of the TR's capabilities and what can be done with limited CoS charges because I play the class and have been leveling an int rogue.
Opinions are like anuses. Everyone has one and no matter how hard you try some still might think yours stinks, but making assumptions usually only makes an as$ out of U and mptions..
Of course if the rogue comes within melee range he will get chain CC'd by a Control Wizard but that is why ItC exists, however a Devoted Cleric can do nothing to a rogue who is smart enough to alternate ItC and stealth.
At the very best it gives them more time to survive, yay...but as a cleric I still can't do anything to survive the encounter. I can fight til I die (still quickly) or I can run away (worse than standing and dieing in many regards)
As long as rogues have the option to burst down most/all of Control Wizard and Devoted Cleric HP with CoS without any reprecussions the PvP will be completely out of wack. As it stands the best chance for the two support-like classes to survive is to be supported by rogue's smokebomb and to me it just doesn't make sense that a support class has to rely on so much support from the "glass cannon" class.
Instead of asking for a NERF of a class, why not ask for a BOOST of your own class.
Special attention to your statement, "Cleric can do NOTHING to a rogue"
Cleric can do WHAT exactly to any another class for that matter? Why ONLY rogue? U drop gwfs? Gfs? Post a vid or something please, i'd LOVE to see a cleric drop a GF....
Seems to me that you want to rack up KILLS with your cleric? REALLY?
To each his own. SO, why not ask for a buff to cleric, instead of a nerf to rogue. YOUR class is underpowered, doesn't mean the rest must be nerfed to your level...
Post patch the combo wont go past the damage of the old CoS, the nerfs to CoS and LA wont allow it. The barrage will also last much shorter. In order to kill someone with CoS post patch you need to face a really bad or passive player.
A DC will be able to heal through it without any issue whatsoever, remember what a joke CoS is on live on its own if you stand in AS? And as I said earlier Ambi, your problem isnt rogues on live, its pretty much any class when you play a DC, in short, the DC needs some major buffs. Also the "burst" you speak of came from LA+stealth+CoS, resulting in perma stealth and 65% (if you wear skulker gear) bonus damage to your attacks. Now post patch that will be 30% damage, thats more than a 50% nerf in damage. And thats only if you count the LA nerf, add the 33% (or more) nerf on CoS and you dont even do the regular CoS damage you have now on live.
If you die to regular CoS on live I dont know what to tell you... you probably should avoid PvP in that case or learn your class better.
It will take ages to kill someone at range while in stealth post patch, it wont be effective. You will do nothing to contribute to your team if you're gonna CoS, run off, wait for recharges, run back, CoS, run off etc. As I said, looking at CoS post nerf, it will be a great opener or chase skill.
So now we get to the rest of the perma stealth "issue", which there is none. If you are in melee, you can spot them, hit them, kill them, avoid them. A CW can keep you locked down long enough to kill you, without being able to do anything in return, should we take away the key feature of CWs too? Or the GF/GWF, which both currently have better control, damage and anti-control things than CCWs while retaining much higher survivability.
Think about what needs to be buffed instead of nerfed.
What a shock you are here complaining about the devs reversing their decision on some of the nerfs instead of asking for them to buff your class. Wait, it is not a shock because you were "dancing for joy" over the proposed nerfs. Those posts can still be found if someone looks for them. Your opinion that CoS with stealth is game destroying is wrong because most control wizards know to move and dodge out of range. Devoted clerics simply heal themselves because the damage is minor. I think there is something wrong with the way you are playing or your gear if you are so easily killed. Devoted clerics who are geared properly and know how to use their class are still a strong challenge in PVP. I do not see you complaining about GWFs or GFs or CW who can take down Devoted Clerics as well. It seems that Gfs and CWs have abilities to push Devoted Clerics out of their heal circles so they can be killed more easily. In my opinion, it is rather bad to find a forum moderator who is so biased against TRs instead of staying unbiased. This nerf is still stupid because it hurts the entire TR community instead of just the few who abuse the TRs abilities.
I could not have said it better. It takes a player who is a poor player or geared wrong to die from CoS on the live server. They should give up playing PVP or get better gear or improve their skills. You are correct that a TR can be seen at close range when in stealth and can be locked down. Permastealth are annoying at best and can be defeated if you learn how too. People should be calling for buffs/fixes instead of crying for nerfs.
That could mean they die...
Or it could mean you force them to run away.
If the only option Clerics and Wizrds have against the CoS from stealth is to run they might as well be dead. It's the same end result.
And I don't complain about GF's or GWF because contrary to your assumptions I can play. Guardian Fighters are a royal pain in my rear end and I do feel their prone durations are a bit obsene but while there's a good chance I will die when fighting either class I can still give them a run for their money.
TR's from stealth have me as a sitting duck with no means to contend with the situation. I die dodging as often as I can with no means to retaliate or I run thus giving the rogue the same result as my death.
However do note that I am entitled to an opinion and the freedom to express it. Biased means something completely different.
And tell me, how many of you saying DC's can heal through CoS actually play Devoted Clerics?
Because the truth of those claims and the reality are far different. There is a small minority of Devoted Clerics that seem to be able to take a large beating in PvP but that is not something the average Devoted Cleric does and it has little to do with the quality of gear and more to do with a specific build or strategy.
And I have a hunch that it is a PvP build which is likely pretty ineffective in PvE.
Are you calling for it to be Nerfed like you are TRs? No? It appears you are only calling for TRs to be nerfed. The definition of biased is:
biased past participle, past tense of bias (Verb)
Verb
1. Show prejudice for or against (someone or something) unfairly: "the tests were biased against women"; "a biased view of the world".
2. Influence unfairly to invoke favoritism: "her story failed to bias the jury".
Since you are calling for only TRs to be nerfed this makes it appear you are prejudice against TRs . When it comes to influencing things unfairly to invoke favoritism an individual simply has to read the threads where your quoted posts are located to see you may have done this as well. Posters are not supposed to discuss punishments on the forum so I will not say further on this subject. You are entitled to your opinion but I would expect you would hold yourself to a higher level since you are a moderator. “Dancing for joy” over a nerf that hurts a significant number of players is in rather poor taste to be honest in my opinion.
You are probably correct that it is a small number of DCs that can do this in PVP. You should probably be learning to do this or asking for DCs to be buffed backup because the nerf to them was unfair. It is also a minority of TRs who are able to one shot people and kill with CoS + Stealth. The entire TR community is going to be hurt for the actions of the few if these nerfs go live. The entire TR community should start calling for NERFs since they get killed easily in PVP because they are heavy damage but squishy and easily killed.
There's nothing unfair about my opinion. I feel like I have a fair shot facing every class besides a Trickster Rogue hence why I don't call for changes to the other classes. As somebody else put it Trickster Rogues have the best of everything besides physical defense which they counteract with a lot of very powerful defensive abilities.
As a Cleric I have little damage and truly very few defensive abilities. I call myself a lightning rod as a good team will focus me and focus me hard and the only thing I can do is hope they blow the best of their abilities on me rather than on my team.
And for the most part the other classes are pretty balanced. Each class has something which could probably do with some adjustment but the only class which seems to have the outright best of everything is the rogue. It does require a bit of playskill to use but a half decent rogue can easily render control wizards and clerics completely ineffective.
And it's not just enchants. They help but their not the main problem.
And as for going out and copying some other person's build which actually works in PvP...
The thing is I do just fine in PvP 1v1 against any class besides a trickster rogue. I won't often win but I will be able to hold my own for a decent period of time...except against rogues...who by chance really only die if they manage to commit a play error and allow themselves to get caught in a CC Chain.
Rogues need a paper to deal with their rock. Every other class has another class which they just can't deal with. Rogues are the only class which is viable against any other class with minimal risk of death. And it's because of that they have to be toned down and to me the problem is the fact in decent hands they become completely untargetable.
Since you seem to think repeating yourself will somehow make your opinion more valid and override my own, I'll just place this here to save myself sometime by providing some added color, bold larger sized letters.
Are CW's providing any damage in a situation where they are unseen and immune to all range damage? Do they have any abilities such as ITC that allows them to be immune to all CC, 100% deflect, or dodge status that would render any forms of CC used on it useless? You seem to have left out the CC available to the TR (including a 40' ranged high damage stun with multiple charges) while retaining higher survivability with encounters such as ITC or key feature of stealth.
Before you make any comparisons of nerfing another class feature such as a CW to a TR's like you did, there needs to be some sort of even keel between the two. To which there is no class feature like stealth that allows for such optimized gameplay when utilized properly.
Directly from a biased individual that does not know anything about Rogues. Minimal risk of death? Rogues are more squishy and easier to kill than DCs. They do have teeth and stealth to help compensate for the lack of healing and astral shield. Each class has its advantages and disadvantages. If you have a good GF and a good DC in a party they can dominate PVP. The ability of GFs to prone players also affects rogues and most GFs can easily kill a rogue. GWFs also have the ability to stun rogues and kill them. Clearly you need to take your own advice and actually play as rogue. I am not calling for GFs and Gwfs to be nerfed like you are calling for TRs to be nerfed. Any nerfs period to any classes would decrease the challenge of PVP and decrease the fun that is PVP. Honestly there is something wrong if you are any class except for a DC and you are unable to kill a rogue. The rogue could have higher gear or be better skilled at his class. That simply means you should improve your skills and get better gear. DCs should be buffed back up to the way they were before the unfair nerf to them. Also, remember that PVP is a team thing in this game so you should be able to stay alive long enough for your team to come help you if you are DC. If you can not stay alive then something is very wrong with the way you are playing or your gear. i rest my case.:)
Referring to nukeyoo's post. Lets see: Do TRs have the ability to kill whole mobs the way CWs can? No? Path of blades does very little damage to mobs compared to CWs. Do TRs have the ability to shield themselves and others the way DCs can? No? Do Trs have the ability to heal others around them the way DCs can? No? Do TRs have the ability to block almost any attack with a shield the way GFs can? No? Do Trs have the same armor as GWFs? No?
I can go down the entire list of the differences between classes but it would be a waste of time. There are several different class feature that allows for such optimized gameplay when utilized properly in each class and it is what makes the classes unique. The idea of nerfing one class or another class will simply make all the classes the same and remove any variety in the game that would end up hurting the game. In using nukeyoo's post it would appear there is no point to comparing TRs with any of the other classes because each class has its own unique advantages and disadvantages. But wait, it seems to be exactly what people calling for nerfs are doing. I will stop with this post because it is becoming unproductive and I have already stated my opinion.