My fear is that the nerfing will never stop and in the end all classes will be very similar. Once damage is out the window the focus will be on who has the most armor or defensive abilities..
Yeah, this is why all classes should be concerned about this. I suspect that GWF will be next, once rogues leave over their uselessness in PvE.
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brendan03usMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
For Cryptic to make a change to appease 10 percent of the player base is just stupid.
Whoa, Buddy. Back up there. There's only *ONE* group that Cryptic is doing *ANYTHING* to "appease" and that's Perfect World Entertainment. All of Cryptic's "woes" began the minute PWE bought them outright, from Atari. Had Atari not pissed off WoTC, we probably wouldn't be in this mess.
Let's review history here:
60's start farming the Epic Dungeons and throwing said items up on the AH. Cryptic patches it "bind on pickup" and then adds new content purchased with Zen.
Massive amounts of enchantments and runestones appear on the market, due to exploits, but also due to professional node farming (more than likely with bots). Cryptic NERFS the higher level areas of nodes and then adds <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> items to collect, if you farm "too much." (they probably added content to purchase with Zen, too, I honestly can't remember.)
Professionals start taking Epic items, making them even *MORE* "epic" and throwing said items up on the AH. Cryptic patches it to "bind on pickup" and then adds new content purchased with Zen. Their claim is that it was "never as intended", but that's BS. You know it, I know it and *THEY* know it. If the Professions weren't "functioning as intended", then as soon as you could start crafting, you wouldn't even SEE, much less be able to train in professions that aren't DIRECTLY related to your class, 'cos why would you want to craft items that "bind on pickup" you can't use?
PvPers start farming for Glory, to buy T1 Epic items and throwing said items up on the AH. Cryptic is (currently planning to) patch this to "bind on pickup", more than likely adding even more content to purchase with Zen.
Seal Items start appearing on the AH. Cryptic plans to patch these to "bind on pickup", eliminating a need to even pick up the Seals in the first place, also more than likely adding even more content to purchase with Zen, as it will patch the same time as above.
Are you seeing the pattern here? *ANY* way you can seriously make Astral Diamonds in this game has been nerfed 'cos the PARENT company, Perfect World "Entertainment" doesn't *WANT* you to be a "millionaire" except under certain circumstances:
You either a) bought a founder's pack of some sort or b) you exchange Zen you purchase for Astral Diamonds. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that PWE has hired Chinese citizens to play the game, solely to exploit the exchange, but that is hearsay and speculation on my part.
I know how the industry works and for Cryptic to be so silent on their "official" forums speaks VOLUMES. There's a TON of hate on this board and a lot with good reason, but if you want to point the finger at anyone for all these nerfs they're patching in, you need to go to PWE for that.
As for all the "uproar" about PvP nerfs. I said it before and I'll say it again: the problem with PvP is *GEAR SCORE* not "perma-stealth rogues" or whatever the flavor of the month is. The reason they're nerfing TRs is simple. It's the MAIN source of complaint *ON* these forums. Before, it was DCs, then CWs/TRs and now it's solely TRs. Nobody reports serious stuff. It's all about "PvP", 'cos the PvPers are actually complaining. The GF T1 set is *STILL* bugged, but I don't see anyone B!tching about it, except for me, 'cos everyone else bought better stuff on the Auction House. I was one of those sad fools that wanted to "earn" it.
I've tried to report SERIOUS problems in-game, like professions nodes that you can't even *REACH*, either due to bad level design, where they're completely covered by the environment or some sort of "invisible wall", but it's next to impossible to report a bug in-game, due to the poorly designed ticket system. Eventually, I gave up. I could have given them the EXACT location of the problem nodes, but 'cos they couldn't make it simple to report a bug, I didn't bother. I'm an alpha tester, but I don't even bother to log in, 'cos what's the point? If there is a problem, you have to sort through a ridiculous amount of clicks and menus to (probably) not even find what you're looking for. The "sort problem" in our inventory should have been an emergency patch, but here it is two weeks now and it still hasn't been fixed, but people aren't hounding about it on here, like they are about the OP 13k "kill teams" that farm Glory and live to grief people that "just didn't get their 1337 gear fast enough."
I have been in the OB, since the beginning. Of my 100+ "friend's list", about 5 are on at any given time and most of them are the n00bs that came along when NW went "full release." Most of my "old timers" don't even play anymore. Why would they? They've run all the same content dozens of times, farmed as much as they could and made their AD. They probably log in once a day to get their Celestial/Ardent Coins, but I'm sure PWE will force Cryptic to nerf that too.
It is unlikely that I said anywhere in my original post that I am the direct customer of the devs. I also did not pretend to understand the inner workings of the team at Cryptic. You are going to great lengths to discredit my post in which I simply was trying to say it appears they are poorly managed and not customer focused. As for the company you are smart enough to understand why I don't identify the company. You are obviously intelligent and well spoken. Do you truly disagree with the simple statement made in the paragraph below relevant mostly to the MANAGEMENT?
It would also be nice if people like yourself quit pretending to know the internal structure of every company involved with MMO's. Regardless of how the various departments are structured and what their responsibilities are its safe to say there are ongoing issues that have not been solved. The management of the company that allocates resources to various functions is beyond remiss in understanding the voice of their customer. The management of the game DOES direct more attention to cash grab than it should with the current state of the game."
You replied to someone who said that the people who work on cash shop items are not the same as the people who develop new content. The proceeded to say the bit that I quoted. You were wrong. That's what I replied to. You said I was trolling so I took the time to explain what I judged to be where you were wrong. You asked me to give a solid reason that anything you said is untrue. When I do you respond that I'm going to great lengths to discredit you. I did what you asked; don't blame me if you don't like it (though I suspect you didn't think I could when you asked me to).
I didn't say you said you were a direct customer of the devs, but you slagged off the people who hired two completely different sets of employees, who I would expect are hired under separate budgets, and then stated that listening to your customer is fundamental to success. My bet would be that the people who did the hiring don't have the player base as their customer, but rather another department in their company or indeed PWE.
Do I agree with the "simple" statement in your 2nd paragraph? I can't agree or disagree without knowing how the company is structured, and what their tasks are. You said regardless of what their responsibilties are, search my posts and you'll see that I've suggested that, after the exploits in open beta (that allowed people to level in a few hours/days, farm resources, one shot bosses that can be farmed, dupe enchants, fuse enchants without using a ward but getting 100% success rate, etc) to go live without a wipe meant that people were bored and had nothing to do, and guantlgrym was rushed out before it was done properly as a bandaid to try to retain people. I think that once on the backfoot everything they do going forward will be rushed and be a bandaid to try to retain people.
If their responsibility is to do as little as they can, for as little cost as they can, to keep people dipping their hands in their pockets then I think they're doing a good job when it comes to the cash shop. When Lillend became available from professions packs people were spending $240 in a go to try to get one.
So that's one department. What about those working on the new content and keeping this post on topic? That remains to be seen but I think they'll deliver. The changes to the rogue have caused a lot of controversy but they're not live yet, and if they do go live a lot of people who made a lot of noise will still continue to play their rogues despite claiming otherwise. However, even if those changes go in and turn out to be the death knell for the game how am I to judge whether there was any mismanagement? I don't know what they were tasked with.
I'm not really answering your question, though. You're specifically asking about mismanagement of resource allocation. Why what are your criteria for how this should be done? What are theirs? What are the problems that you believe are caused by lack of staff? No GMs online to deal with issues? I don't know what you perceive to be problems that aren't being addressed so I can't answer you, and probably couldn't if I did.
Oh but you said they should understand the voice of their customer. Again that raises the question of who their customer is. It's not you or me, this is where I believe you're getting confused, it's shareholders. I guess the end of financial year figures will tell us whether they've listened to their customers.
In response to your final sentence, I'm not sure why you're putting does in caps, I never said they didn't, after all that is the business model of a f2p. It's a good model. Look at some of the big name MMOs in recent years who've had a subscription (I can't name them here). They couldn't get enough servers in the initial month to cope with the people trying them out. After the "free" month a lot of people didn't subscribe and they had to start merging servers within 6-8 weeks of launch. Some of the more dedicated players go for a bit longer and get to max level and find that there's nothing to do, or what there is doesn't interest them and quit. And then you get a core of players that play longer until it goes f2p. So when you design a f2p game with the knowledge of this behaviour up front you do it like I say; just enough to keep people playing and paying. Everyone complains that they have the time to keep releasing new items in the cash shop. Well durrrr.
edit:read the post above this. there you go, PWE is the customer. I didn't know the history but a quick look tells me that NW wasn't a f2p under atari. As I see it Cryptic are doing precisely what their customer is asking them to do. Again confusing Cryptic's customer with PWE's customers clouds the issue.
edit:read the post above this. there you go, PWE is the customer. I didn't know the history but a quick look tells me that NW wasn't a f2p under atari. As I see it Cryptic are doing precisely what their customer is asking them to do. Again confusing Cryptic's customer with PWE's customers clouds the issue.
Um, that's not exactly what I meant. Cryptic is owned by Perfect World Entertainment, which is the North American Subsidiary of Perfect World. PW/PWE is in the market to make *MONEY*. Cryptic is in the market to make games *AND* money. PW/PWE is the investor. Cryptic is the invested. PW/PWE won't invest money, unless they get a return. Also remember that Neverwinter is a subset of Dungeons and Dragons, which is a LICENSE of Hasbro/WoTC. I guarantee you that a sizable chunk of revenue goes back directly to them, which cuts into the bottom line of PW/PWE's return. Cryptic is the low man on the totem pole, so to speak.
So, when PW checks it's monthly income, it sees there's a slump in PWE. They contact PWE to find out why. PWE checks its invoices and sees that Zen sales in Neverwinter are down. PWE contacts Cryptic to find out why. Cryptic wants to get paid and get money for continued development, so they explain problems with the game. I figure the conversation is somewhat like this, based on my previous experiences:
Suit (S): So why are we seeing a 20% revenue loss with Neverwinter?
Managing Partner at Cryptic (MP): Zen sales have been down. People have been leaving, due to some bugs and exploits we're trying to fix. (per wikipedia, in 2007 Cryptic had around 200 employees - let's say they have that now, too. They maintain 4 games, plus a 5th, super-secret project. That means probably 20 to 30 (max) are currently working on Neverwinter.)
S: Yes, but why are sales of Zen down. What's the reason?
MP: I'm not sure, but there have been a lot of epic items for sale at high prices on the AH. Since they're selling, people aren't buying Zen and converting it to AD, meaning they're making money in-game using professions (or insert game mechanic that allows AD growth here).
S: Put a stop to it. We need them to buy Zen.
MP: Um..... but it's an in-game mechanic. It was DESIGNED that way.
S: Put a stop to it.
MP: Okay, but we have some major bugs to fix in the code which should take precedence.
S: It will have to wait. We need them to continue purchasing Zen.
MP: Yes, Sir (or Ma'am - no chauvinists we!)
S: Oh, one more thing. Sales in the store have been down. Why don't you put up a few more items for sale, after all, we're in this business to make money.
MP: ................
Seriously, that about sums it up. PW/PWE is no better than WoTC in that mentality. Look at Magic:The Gathering. When sales start slumping, every few years, create new cards that OP the previous ones that everyone just HAS to "have."
We can stop spending money, but then Cryptic suffers and we suffer with game content. Eventually, the game will fold, 'cos WoTC isn't getting enough return on their License, closing the doors to Faerun, forever. Don't believe me, think of Star Wars:Galaxies.
I didn't say you said that, I said it as a follow up to what I'd already said. You just pointed out that PWE own Cryptic, that makes them the customer.
As for your phone call scenario, I disagree, they don't need to see sales drop, they're always working on new things to put in the store.
Are you seeing the pattern here? *ANY* way you can seriously make Astral Diamonds in this game has been nerfed 'cos the PARENT company, Perfect World "Entertainment" doesn't *WANT* you to be a "millionaire" except under certain circumstances:
Just my 2p.
I thank you for this, it saved me from writing a lot less friendly post saying the same thing. So far (and at least to me) most if not all of the changes were aimed at gimping people's ability to get AD.
Yet the result is more bots and more use of exploits and glitches. The "pro's" are already settled in, sitting on their millions and can easily make more by selling the T2 and CN stuff than nobody else can ever reach. And that stuff has to be bought by millions of AD's that the more casual player has no way of obtaining unless shelving real $$ for it.
This game has become so incredibly skewed, the whole idea of 'balancing' by nerfing base skills of classes is frankly, and again imo, just insulting.
Bots are condoned, exploiting is expected and glitches don't get fixed. For all intents and purposes, this is working as intended, and it sucks.
So I've been reading over the patch notes for the next update which is currently being tested on the test server.
Although some players might be excited about some of the changes, I actually think if these changes go live it will be another step towards the game dying.
First off, drake seal items no longer tradable? Really? The ONLY thing that made drake seal items have any value was that they could be traded. By the time you get enough seals to buy any of the items, you won't need the drake seal items because the chances of getting better equipment is much higher than the amount of seals that drop. The ONLY thing that gave them value was that you could collect them and buy items for either alts or to help up and coming guildmates with gear. This change alone will make drake seal items only worth gold but 1.5 gold?
The changes to the rogue will make the class MUCH less effective in PVE. So much so that the class brings nothing to offer for dps if lurkers assault is nerfed from dmg to crit severity. Who ****ing cares about crit severity? A 4 year old girl could come up with a better idea to fix rogues than these devs.
Nothing to address enchantments? Nothing to fix the broken savage enchantments? Nothing to fix duping of enchantments? There is a huge list of annoying bugs that have been around since closed beta that are not even being addressed? But they want to add more cash shop items and fix stuff that isn't broken?
The only thing I can blame Cryptic for is listening to its players. Each change on the test server was requested in one or more threads.
Lurker's assault was seriously OP, it was they skill everyone had to have BUT.............. With lurker now nerfed, they should consider upping damage on other skills in order to maintain a higher single target dps ratio that don't depend on Lurker's
I play only cleric and I hate always having two rogues on my team anytime I random join and trust me there are always two and most often they are with two CW's. That said there are way too many TR's and CW's in PvP at the moment, but when it comes to what I hate being attacked from I'd rank it GWF, CW, GF, then rogue. I have no defense against a GWF, struggle to hit a GF, and CW's can be a real pain when they keep targeting me. Hate the stealth build of the rogue, but the non-stealth rogues aren't such a big deal (I'd rather be up against two of them than have two of them on my team, just one is nice though). If everyone starts playing, GWF, GF, or CW my clerics may stop playing PvP, depending just how bad it is.
I play only cleric and I hate always having two rogues on my team anytime I random join and trust me there are always two and most often they are with two CW's. That said there are way too many TR's and CW's in PvP at the moment, but when it comes to what I hate being attacked from I'd rank it GWF, CW, GF, then rogue. I have no defense against a GWF, struggle to hit a GF, and CW's can be a real pain when they keep targeting me. Hate the stealth build of the rogue, but the non-stealth rogues aren't such a big deal (I'd rather be up against two of them than have two of them on my team, just one is nice though). If everyone starts playing, GWF, GF, or CW my clerics may stop playing PvP, depending just how bad it is.
That is most likely what will happen. I stopped playing my DC in PvP after the AS nerf, it was already easy to kill a DC at 60 if you just had the slightest clue. The nerf made it way too easy. TRs will find another class to PvP with if they feel like PvPing with a competative class. Most likely they will roll a GF or GWF since they are mlee classes and have no real weakness against DCs, CWs or TRs for that matter.
What will happen after that is another nerf to one of the more popular classes, or a rebuff (like we've seen with the GWF) of the TR. Doesnt matter which route they take, it wont be for the better.
What make it boring and annoying for me is that we spend time and AD to get a perfectly fitting set for out playstyle, only to have it ripped away under our nose. Now the stealth duration set will most likely be trash, so we need to grind again for another set. Any chance of a GG coin refund and AD refund for chants? Or is this just Cryptics/PWs way of saying "buy zen and convert"? Or just let us turn in our old pieces atleast to get our GG coins back for those that want to.
After so many years and games in the MMO genre you would expect companies like cryptic and PW to understand simple nerf/buff balance solutions. But they dont, they go at it like it's their first attempt at balancing things.
Chisle > Greathammer when you wanna get the details right.
Oh i can solo rogues in pvp as a DC/CW, stealth has many weaknesses. I'm seeing the bright side of things from a pve standpoint though. It's going to require a lot more gaming skills to play a good assassin in this game. Like the DC astral shield forced many DC to learn to play. Anyway, it's expected that stealth should have a counterpart, and this counterpart is often a loss of dps. Ok, you can hide, but then you do less dps than melee dps class with no stealth and different abilities. It's like rangers, in many game, they do less damage than melee, and no one think it's outrageous. You have an awesome survivability tool, probably the best one in game (you take no damage while in stealth), well, you have to pay for it in a way or another.
still doesn't mean that the flat out nerf to their role (single target dps) is justified when you consider that it's in conjunction with the nerfs to stealth combat. literally massive percentages in dps loss are what is happening, and all this from the class with the WORST aoe presence in the game? This is taking with one hand, and then taking with the other. There is no giving back in any other area, then you have to naturally consider the feats that are now rendered garbage due to the changes to stealth. So from at least this perspective of the sheer difference, and the anti stealth damage changes and you'll have to forgive folks for wondering what the POINT to stealth is anymore aside from as a "****ty escape"
And for the last bloody time, stop being obtuse, you CAN take damage in stealth. I think you have a GF confused with a TR.
Also just for the fact that I'd feel bad not pointing this shi* out. Rangers or hunters etc, usually have a ranged auto attack and the advantage of distance and tools to keep folks away from them or a pet etc. from a design standpoint RANGE is something you have to account for, it's called "risk vs reward" and when it's wrong, you end up with a GW2 issue that everyone wants to be ranged, and no one wants to be melee until they overgear stuff and know it inside out.
Let's be real here, read the posts about players changing classes in this thread because they nerfed this or that class.
This is the best thing that Cryptic can do to keep PVP alive in this game, reason is, it will appease some players, and players who FOTM will always FOTM. They aren't interested in classes/class mechanics just that thier class is top dog when it comes to PVP. So all of those players complaining they will quit will most likely re-roll instead to whatever they are told by people on the forums is the next OP class, and in turn spend more real money in the game.
How is this not win/win for Cryptic?
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percefusMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Let's be real here, read the posts about players changing classes in this thread because they nerfed this or that class.
This is the best thing that Cryptic can do to keep PVP alive in this game, reason is, it will appease some players, and players who FOTM will always FOTM. They aren't interested in classes/class mechanics just that thier class is top dog when it comes to PVP. So all of those players complaining they will quit will most likely re-roll instead to whatever they are told by people on the forums is the next OP class, and in turn spend more real money in the game.
How is this not win/win for Cryptic?
Seriously ? I don't know where to start, the reason players are changing a class from rogue to w/e is because they unlike you seem to have a clue exactly whats on the test server and how it D R A M A T I C L Y affects the rogue class in general.
The best thing to keep PvP alive in this game is to make, design a better que system that places people with the same GS and enchant stats in the same match. What you and a majority of people that were screaming for a rogue nerf, should have been screaming for was removing enchantments especially high level ones from PvP if you in fact want BALANCED PvP, they are the root and cause of 99% of all game imbalances. Of course the devs won't say that because that's how this game makes money for PW.
Vorpals from Lock Boxes, Converting Zen to AD to buy enchantments and then Wards....
Seriously some of you really need to open your eyes.....
A Proud Member Of THE 300 Guild - Tene's are nothing but P2W, Nerf or Remove please!
I'm preparing a vessel to sail in the tears of crappy TR's on the 22'nd.LOL Protectors Enclave is going to be FLOODED.
The only good thing about the rogue nerfs is the entertainment I'm going to have watching the forums after it goes live, and see all the QQ when other classes realize what really changed.
I'm looking forward to posts like "OMG I'm still getting one-shotted by invisible rogues in PvP, WTF more nerfs please! And BTW, why are dungeons taking so long now? Nerf bosses!"
After this patch, PvP is the only thing rogues will still be able to do well. Unless you count professions, I guess. Say goodbye to having an effective striker in PvE. You'll have to make do with GWF, but they are next in line for the PvP QQ nerf bat.
Also, I think it's amusing that all of the "yay nerf" trolls keep saying how rogues are bad and don't know how to play. That's funny, when they are crying over rogue abilities that anyone who knows what they are doing can counter.
It is obviously the PvP whiners who can't play, because they don't even try to learn and instead come on the forums screaming for everyone else to be nerfed so they can win without learning how to actually counter other classes. My favorite is the guy who keeps trolling the forums telling rogues to L2P, when he admits that he doesn't even try to learn to fight rogues in PvP, he just ragequits when he sees one. Classy.
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Let's be real here, read the posts about players changing classes in this thread because they nerfed this or that class.
This is the best thing that Cryptic can do to keep PVP alive in this game, reason is, it will appease some players, and players who FOTM will always FOTM. They aren't interested in classes/class mechanics just that thier class is top dog when it comes to PVP. So all of those players complaining they will quit will most likely re-roll instead to whatever they are told by people on the forums is the next OP class, and in turn spend more real money in the game.
The only good thing about the rogue nerfs is the entertainment I'm going to have watching the forums after it goes live, and see all the QQ when other classes realize what really changed.
I'm looking forward to posts like "OMG I'm still getting one-shotted by invisible rogues in PvP, WTF more nerfs please! And BTW, why are dungeons taking so long now? Nerf bosses!"
After this patch, PvP is the only thing rogues will still be able to do well. Unless you count professions, I guess. Say goodbye to having an effective striker in PvE. You'll have to make do with GWF, but they are next in line for the PvP QQ nerf bat.
Also, I think it's amusing that all of the "yay nerf" trolls keep saying how rogues are bad and don't know how to play. That's funny, when they are crying over rogue abilities that anyone who knows what they are doing can counter.
It is obviously the PvP whiners who can't play, because they don't even try to learn and instead come on the forums screaming for everyone else to be nerfed so they can win without learning how to actually counter other classes. My favorite is the guy who keeps trolling the forums telling rogues to L2P, when he admits that he doesn't even try to learn to fight rogues in PvP, he just ragequits when he sees one. Classy.
GF here,full tank,never been one shotted'..I just pop reflect and let them pewpew themselves to death.TR is so advanced that you have to be a pro player to get kills in pvp;real tough skill set to master.I say adapt,like people have to do in every other game in every other nerf patch.nb4 cookie cutter TR's make cookie cutter gfw's/gf's.When they nerf THAT CC build,they'll jump to the next.FOTM...
Seriously ? I don't know where to start, the reason players are changing a class from rogue to w/e is because they unlike you seem to have a clue exactly whats on the test server and how it D R A M A T I C L Y affects the rogue class in general.
The best thing to keep PvP alive in this game is to make, design a better que system that places people with the same GS and enchant stats in the same match. What you and a majority of people that were screaming for a rogue nerf, should have been screaming for was removing enchantments especially high level ones from PvP if you in fact want BALANCED PvP, they are the root and cause of 99% of all game imbalances. Of course the devs won't say that because that's how this game makes money for PW.
Vorpals from Lock Boxes, Converting Zen to AD to buy enchantments and then Wards....
Seriously some of you really need to open your eyes.....
I love people who make assumptions when they are heated and sweaty.
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axahazanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited July 2013
This response is silly. I play both PVP and PVE. I do not care for stealth in pvp and use Lurker is PVE. This does nothing for my class. Also, if you are using something like duelist in PVP I would wager you aren't truly into pvp...
They'll be nerfing gf's next so no more chain cc 3 hit juggle charge attack. Idk which is worse not being able to defend yourself(daze/lash/dagger) or being juggled around and can't get up from prone/stun until you're dead.
Queen of Dragon Server
Goddess Uniique, lvl 60 DC.
PinkSugar, lvl 60 CW.
Baby Cakes, lvl 60 GWF.
*******, lvl 60 TR.
Premium Juicebox, lvl 60 CW.
Pink Exxxtacy, Ranger There is NO pvp in Neverwinter.
The only good thing about the rogue nerfs is the entertainment I'm going to have watching the forums after it goes live, and see all the QQ when other classes realize what really changed.
I'm looking forward to posts like "OMG I'm still getting one-shotted by invisible rogues in PvP, WTF more nerfs please! And BTW, why are dungeons taking so long now? Nerf bosses!"
After this patch, PvP is the only thing rogues will still be able to do well. Unless you count professions, I guess. Say goodbye to having an effective striker in PvE. You'll have to make do with GWF, but they are next in line for the PvP QQ nerf bat.
Also, I think it's amusing that all of the "yay nerf" trolls keep saying how rogues are bad and don't know how to play. That's funny, when they are crying over rogue abilities that anyone who knows what they are doing can counter.
It is obviously the PvP whiners who can't play, because they don't even try to learn and instead come on the forums screaming for everyone else to be nerfed so they can win without learning how to actually counter other classes. My favorite is the guy who keeps trolling the forums telling rogues to L2P, when he admits that he doesn't even try to learn to fight rogues in PvP, he just ragequits when he sees one. Classy.
No one said there were no counters. I can solo most rogues in pvp with my DC, and even with my CW, but it requires a high playing skill, while playing a rogue doesn't. It's harder to find a sealthed one than hiding and killing people within 5s. Nerfing their dps and stealth is really a no-brainer if anyone wants a healthy pvp in this game. And if dungeons takes 5-10 more minutes, well, i'm not going to complain about it.
They'll be nerfing gf's next so no more chain cc 3 hit juggle charge attack. Idk which is worse not being able to defend yourself(daze/lash/dagger) or being juggled around and can't get up from prone/stun until you're dead.
And the spiral continues downwards. This next TR nerf is just the next step of the avalanche, it started with the GWF back in beta, which they reverted and made more powerful. This game will never have balance.
With 45% extra stealth meter on my rogue, stealth is depleted in 5 seconds when using at-wills. That means without any stealth, the usual 5 second duration non-stealth build stealth will last for about 2 attacks. Unless cryptic has gone and done something stupid, like x% of your meter is depleted for each at-will attack. Meaning bonus to stealth doesnt matter since it's x% out of y stealth, the more stealth you have, the more it eats.
But with the changes to PvP items being soulbound I dont see much future for PvP, it's not like GW where you PvP on equal footing from lvl 1 in BGs and you do it for fun. 5vs5 isnt fun, and with no reward (4k AD...) I assume most people wont bother.
I'm also majorly with them releasing yet another linear small 3 step zone. It brings nothing to the game, no exploring, invisible walls in the terrain which could have been open and full with mobs.
I just dont think I'll bother anymore with NW. The first M in MMO just doesnt find it's place in NW. 1 zone in this game is like 1/10th of a zone in GW2, WoW or the coming FFXIV. Even ToR which had more linear zones at times (cities) feels like it has more exploring than NW. Heck you had to search and search for holocrons in the most fun and quarky places. Corridors and invisible walls dont fit into an MMO. Even an old game such as DaoC had much vaster zones.
The build really only works well in PvP so as I said it will effect PvE but the only utter loss in viability from what I am seeing is in PvP.
Did you even read the whole nerf about the TR? I hope you did. I recommend you to look/read all the descriptions of the feats of the TR so you'll realize why and how the nerf will greatly affect TR in PvE.
Did you even read the whole nerf about the TR? I hope you did. I recommend you to look/read all the descriptions of the feats of the TR so you'll realize why and how the nerf will greatly affect TR in PvE.
Indeed, I do hope he does, or even takes time to try it on the test shard (if he has a rogue). The changes are over the top.
A fun thing about the thrown skill is, with 8 charges you not only lose 4 charges, you lose 4 steps on the bonus damage aswell, and in addition to that, if you are scoundrel specced, you lose another 1.5% per bonus damage from the talent, thats 6% if you focus on a target.
It's time they scrap the stealth idea as it is and introduce the toggle stealth. Breaking on any attack you do (at-will, encounter or daily), but regens overs 5-6 seconds. This would center the TR more around encounters just like other classes and make at-wills filler skills. Extra at-will effects aswell if you are in stealth (duelist could pop flurry straight of the bat, sly flourish chain would deal 20% more damage with each swing, cloud of steel would unleash the knives 2x as fast i.e 12 knives unleashed in only 6 attacks and the gap closer at-will would snare your target) but they would all render you visible instantly so people could interrupt or whatever.
This would give TRs more to plan for, just like GWFs, CWs and so on, to combine the most beneficial skill setup with the right timing. And it would let them lurk around and find fights in stealth.
Just delete rogues and release rangers = everyone happy:p
i do not see this as a *youknowwhat* after playing TR on the test server, if they do not take any feed back and modify their "balancing" it would be better to just remove a class with no benefit to a group dynamic and introduce something that might be useful till they swing their all mighty nerf bat yet again.
Where can i check out the patch notes and or future patch notes for NeverWinter? Cuz i dont see an option to see the patch notes on the top of the site?
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Where can i check out the patch notes for NeverWinter? Cuz i dont see the option to on the top of the site?
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I order you to lower your shields and weapons or ill be forced to fire upon you!!!"
Comments
Yeah, this is why all classes should be concerned about this. I suspect that GWF will be next, once rogues leave over their uselessness in PvE.
This is a sound approach in any MMO that is trying to balance classes around PvP.
Whoa, Buddy. Back up there. There's only *ONE* group that Cryptic is doing *ANYTHING* to "appease" and that's Perfect World Entertainment. All of Cryptic's "woes" began the minute PWE bought them outright, from Atari. Had Atari not pissed off WoTC, we probably wouldn't be in this mess.
Let's review history here:
60's start farming the Epic Dungeons and throwing said items up on the AH. Cryptic patches it "bind on pickup" and then adds new content purchased with Zen.
Massive amounts of enchantments and runestones appear on the market, due to exploits, but also due to professional node farming (more than likely with bots). Cryptic NERFS the higher level areas of nodes and then adds <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> items to collect, if you farm "too much." (they probably added content to purchase with Zen, too, I honestly can't remember.)
Professionals start taking Epic items, making them even *MORE* "epic" and throwing said items up on the AH. Cryptic patches it to "bind on pickup" and then adds new content purchased with Zen. Their claim is that it was "never as intended", but that's BS. You know it, I know it and *THEY* know it. If the Professions weren't "functioning as intended", then as soon as you could start crafting, you wouldn't even SEE, much less be able to train in professions that aren't DIRECTLY related to your class, 'cos why would you want to craft items that "bind on pickup" you can't use?
PvPers start farming for Glory, to buy T1 Epic items and throwing said items up on the AH. Cryptic is (currently planning to) patch this to "bind on pickup", more than likely adding even more content to purchase with Zen.
Seal Items start appearing on the AH. Cryptic plans to patch these to "bind on pickup", eliminating a need to even pick up the Seals in the first place, also more than likely adding even more content to purchase with Zen, as it will patch the same time as above.
Are you seeing the pattern here? *ANY* way you can seriously make Astral Diamonds in this game has been nerfed 'cos the PARENT company, Perfect World "Entertainment" doesn't *WANT* you to be a "millionaire" except under certain circumstances:
You either a) bought a founder's pack of some sort or b) you exchange Zen you purchase for Astral Diamonds. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that PWE has hired Chinese citizens to play the game, solely to exploit the exchange, but that is hearsay and speculation on my part.
I know how the industry works and for Cryptic to be so silent on their "official" forums speaks VOLUMES. There's a TON of hate on this board and a lot with good reason, but if you want to point the finger at anyone for all these nerfs they're patching in, you need to go to PWE for that.
As for all the "uproar" about PvP nerfs. I said it before and I'll say it again: the problem with PvP is *GEAR SCORE* not "perma-stealth rogues" or whatever the flavor of the month is. The reason they're nerfing TRs is simple. It's the MAIN source of complaint *ON* these forums. Before, it was DCs, then CWs/TRs and now it's solely TRs. Nobody reports serious stuff. It's all about "PvP", 'cos the PvPers are actually complaining. The GF T1 set is *STILL* bugged, but I don't see anyone B!tching about it, except for me, 'cos everyone else bought better stuff on the Auction House. I was one of those sad fools that wanted to "earn" it.
I've tried to report SERIOUS problems in-game, like professions nodes that you can't even *REACH*, either due to bad level design, where they're completely covered by the environment or some sort of "invisible wall", but it's next to impossible to report a bug in-game, due to the poorly designed ticket system. Eventually, I gave up. I could have given them the EXACT location of the problem nodes, but 'cos they couldn't make it simple to report a bug, I didn't bother. I'm an alpha tester, but I don't even bother to log in, 'cos what's the point? If there is a problem, you have to sort through a ridiculous amount of clicks and menus to (probably) not even find what you're looking for. The "sort problem" in our inventory should have been an emergency patch, but here it is two weeks now and it still hasn't been fixed, but people aren't hounding about it on here, like they are about the OP 13k "kill teams" that farm Glory and live to grief people that "just didn't get their 1337 gear fast enough."
I have been in the OB, since the beginning. Of my 100+ "friend's list", about 5 are on at any given time and most of them are the n00bs that came along when NW went "full release." Most of my "old timers" don't even play anymore. Why would they? They've run all the same content dozens of times, farmed as much as they could and made their AD. They probably log in once a day to get their Celestial/Ardent Coins, but I'm sure PWE will force Cryptic to nerf that too.
Just my 2p.
I didn't say you said you were a direct customer of the devs, but you slagged off the people who hired two completely different sets of employees, who I would expect are hired under separate budgets, and then stated that listening to your customer is fundamental to success. My bet would be that the people who did the hiring don't have the player base as their customer, but rather another department in their company or indeed PWE.
Do I agree with the "simple" statement in your 2nd paragraph? I can't agree or disagree without knowing how the company is structured, and what their tasks are. You said regardless of what their responsibilties are, search my posts and you'll see that I've suggested that, after the exploits in open beta (that allowed people to level in a few hours/days, farm resources, one shot bosses that can be farmed, dupe enchants, fuse enchants without using a ward but getting 100% success rate, etc) to go live without a wipe meant that people were bored and had nothing to do, and guantlgrym was rushed out before it was done properly as a bandaid to try to retain people. I think that once on the backfoot everything they do going forward will be rushed and be a bandaid to try to retain people.
If their responsibility is to do as little as they can, for as little cost as they can, to keep people dipping their hands in their pockets then I think they're doing a good job when it comes to the cash shop. When Lillend became available from professions packs people were spending $240 in a go to try to get one.
So that's one department. What about those working on the new content and keeping this post on topic? That remains to be seen but I think they'll deliver. The changes to the rogue have caused a lot of controversy but they're not live yet, and if they do go live a lot of people who made a lot of noise will still continue to play their rogues despite claiming otherwise. However, even if those changes go in and turn out to be the death knell for the game how am I to judge whether there was any mismanagement? I don't know what they were tasked with.
I'm not really answering your question, though. You're specifically asking about mismanagement of resource allocation. Why what are your criteria for how this should be done? What are theirs? What are the problems that you believe are caused by lack of staff? No GMs online to deal with issues? I don't know what you perceive to be problems that aren't being addressed so I can't answer you, and probably couldn't if I did.
Oh but you said they should understand the voice of their customer. Again that raises the question of who their customer is. It's not you or me, this is where I believe you're getting confused, it's shareholders. I guess the end of financial year figures will tell us whether they've listened to their customers.
In response to your final sentence, I'm not sure why you're putting does in caps, I never said they didn't, after all that is the business model of a f2p. It's a good model. Look at some of the big name MMOs in recent years who've had a subscription (I can't name them here). They couldn't get enough servers in the initial month to cope with the people trying them out. After the "free" month a lot of people didn't subscribe and they had to start merging servers within 6-8 weeks of launch. Some of the more dedicated players go for a bit longer and get to max level and find that there's nothing to do, or what there is doesn't interest them and quit. And then you get a core of players that play longer until it goes f2p. So when you design a f2p game with the knowledge of this behaviour up front you do it like I say; just enough to keep people playing and paying. Everyone complains that they have the time to keep releasing new items in the cash shop. Well durrrr.
edit:read the post above this. there you go, PWE is the customer. I didn't know the history but a quick look tells me that NW wasn't a f2p under atari. As I see it Cryptic are doing precisely what their customer is asking them to do. Again confusing Cryptic's customer with PWE's customers clouds the issue.
Um, that's not exactly what I meant. Cryptic is owned by Perfect World Entertainment, which is the North American Subsidiary of Perfect World. PW/PWE is in the market to make *MONEY*. Cryptic is in the market to make games *AND* money. PW/PWE is the investor. Cryptic is the invested. PW/PWE won't invest money, unless they get a return. Also remember that Neverwinter is a subset of Dungeons and Dragons, which is a LICENSE of Hasbro/WoTC. I guarantee you that a sizable chunk of revenue goes back directly to them, which cuts into the bottom line of PW/PWE's return. Cryptic is the low man on the totem pole, so to speak.
So, when PW checks it's monthly income, it sees there's a slump in PWE. They contact PWE to find out why. PWE checks its invoices and sees that Zen sales in Neverwinter are down. PWE contacts Cryptic to find out why. Cryptic wants to get paid and get money for continued development, so they explain problems with the game. I figure the conversation is somewhat like this, based on my previous experiences:
Suit (S): So why are we seeing a 20% revenue loss with Neverwinter?
Managing Partner at Cryptic (MP): Zen sales have been down. People have been leaving, due to some bugs and exploits we're trying to fix. (per wikipedia, in 2007 Cryptic had around 200 employees - let's say they have that now, too. They maintain 4 games, plus a 5th, super-secret project. That means probably 20 to 30 (max) are currently working on Neverwinter.)
S: Yes, but why are sales of Zen down. What's the reason?
MP: I'm not sure, but there have been a lot of epic items for sale at high prices on the AH. Since they're selling, people aren't buying Zen and converting it to AD, meaning they're making money in-game using professions (or insert game mechanic that allows AD growth here).
S: Put a stop to it. We need them to buy Zen.
MP: Um..... but it's an in-game mechanic. It was DESIGNED that way.
S: Put a stop to it.
MP: Okay, but we have some major bugs to fix in the code which should take precedence.
S: It will have to wait. We need them to continue purchasing Zen.
MP: Yes, Sir (or Ma'am - no chauvinists we!)
S: Oh, one more thing. Sales in the store have been down. Why don't you put up a few more items for sale, after all, we're in this business to make money.
MP: ................
Seriously, that about sums it up. PW/PWE is no better than WoTC in that mentality. Look at Magic:The Gathering. When sales start slumping, every few years, create new cards that OP the previous ones that everyone just HAS to "have."
We can stop spending money, but then Cryptic suffers and we suffer with game content. Eventually, the game will fold, 'cos WoTC isn't getting enough return on their License, closing the doors to Faerun, forever. Don't believe me, think of Star Wars:Galaxies.
As for your phone call scenario, I disagree, they don't need to see sales drop, they're always working on new things to put in the store.
I thank you for this, it saved me from writing a lot less friendly post saying the same thing. So far (and at least to me) most if not all of the changes were aimed at gimping people's ability to get AD.
Yet the result is more bots and more use of exploits and glitches. The "pro's" are already settled in, sitting on their millions and can easily make more by selling the T2 and CN stuff than nobody else can ever reach. And that stuff has to be bought by millions of AD's that the more casual player has no way of obtaining unless shelving real $$ for it.
This game has become so incredibly skewed, the whole idea of 'balancing' by nerfing base skills of classes is frankly, and again imo, just insulting.
Bots are condoned, exploiting is expected and glitches don't get fixed. For all intents and purposes, this is working as intended, and it sucks.
The only thing I can blame Cryptic for is listening to its players. Each change on the test server was requested in one or more threads.
That is most likely what will happen. I stopped playing my DC in PvP after the AS nerf, it was already easy to kill a DC at 60 if you just had the slightest clue. The nerf made it way too easy. TRs will find another class to PvP with if they feel like PvPing with a competative class. Most likely they will roll a GF or GWF since they are mlee classes and have no real weakness against DCs, CWs or TRs for that matter.
What will happen after that is another nerf to one of the more popular classes, or a rebuff (like we've seen with the GWF) of the TR. Doesnt matter which route they take, it wont be for the better.
What make it boring and annoying for me is that we spend time and AD to get a perfectly fitting set for out playstyle, only to have it ripped away under our nose. Now the stealth duration set will most likely be trash, so we need to grind again for another set. Any chance of a GG coin refund and AD refund for chants? Or is this just Cryptics/PWs way of saying "buy zen and convert"? Or just let us turn in our old pieces atleast to get our GG coins back for those that want to.
After so many years and games in the MMO genre you would expect companies like cryptic and PW to understand simple nerf/buff balance solutions. But they dont, they go at it like it's their first attempt at balancing things.
Chisle > Greathammer when you wanna get the details right.
still doesn't mean that the flat out nerf to their role (single target dps) is justified when you consider that it's in conjunction with the nerfs to stealth combat. literally massive percentages in dps loss are what is happening, and all this from the class with the WORST aoe presence in the game? This is taking with one hand, and then taking with the other. There is no giving back in any other area, then you have to naturally consider the feats that are now rendered garbage due to the changes to stealth. So from at least this perspective of the sheer difference, and the anti stealth damage changes and you'll have to forgive folks for wondering what the POINT to stealth is anymore aside from as a "****ty escape"
And for the last bloody time, stop being obtuse, you CAN take damage in stealth. I think you have a GF confused with a TR.
Also just for the fact that I'd feel bad not pointing this shi* out. Rangers or hunters etc, usually have a ranged auto attack and the advantage of distance and tools to keep folks away from them or a pet etc. from a design standpoint RANGE is something you have to account for, it's called "risk vs reward" and when it's wrong, you end up with a GW2 issue that everyone wants to be ranged, and no one wants to be melee until they overgear stuff and know it inside out.
This is the best thing that Cryptic can do to keep PVP alive in this game, reason is, it will appease some players, and players who FOTM will always FOTM. They aren't interested in classes/class mechanics just that thier class is top dog when it comes to PVP. So all of those players complaining they will quit will most likely re-roll instead to whatever they are told by people on the forums is the next OP class, and in turn spend more real money in the game.
How is this not win/win for Cryptic?
Seriously ? I don't know where to start, the reason players are changing a class from rogue to w/e is because they unlike you seem to have a clue exactly whats on the test server and how it D R A M A T I C L Y affects the rogue class in general.
The best thing to keep PvP alive in this game is to make, design a better que system that places people with the same GS and enchant stats in the same match. What you and a majority of people that were screaming for a rogue nerf, should have been screaming for was removing enchantments especially high level ones from PvP if you in fact want BALANCED PvP, they are the root and cause of 99% of all game imbalances. Of course the devs won't say that because that's how this game makes money for PW.
Vorpals from Lock Boxes, Converting Zen to AD to buy enchantments and then Wards....
Seriously some of you really need to open your eyes.....
A Proud Member Of THE 300 Guild - Tene's are nothing but P2W, Nerf or Remove please!
The only good thing about the rogue nerfs is the entertainment I'm going to have watching the forums after it goes live, and see all the QQ when other classes realize what really changed.
I'm looking forward to posts like "OMG I'm still getting one-shotted by invisible rogues in PvP, WTF more nerfs please! And BTW, why are dungeons taking so long now? Nerf bosses!"
After this patch, PvP is the only thing rogues will still be able to do well. Unless you count professions, I guess. Say goodbye to having an effective striker in PvE. You'll have to make do with GWF, but they are next in line for the PvP QQ nerf bat.
Also, I think it's amusing that all of the "yay nerf" trolls keep saying how rogues are bad and don't know how to play. That's funny, when they are crying over rogue abilities that anyone who knows what they are doing can counter.
It is obviously the PvP whiners who can't play, because they don't even try to learn and instead come on the forums screaming for everyone else to be nerfed so they can win without learning how to actually counter other classes. My favorite is the guy who keeps trolling the forums telling rogues to L2P, when he admits that he doesn't even try to learn to fight rogues in PvP, he just ragequits when he sees one. Classy.
GF here,full tank,never been one shotted'..I just pop reflect and let them pewpew themselves to death.TR is so advanced that you have to be a pro player to get kills in pvp;real tough skill set to master.I say adapt,like people have to do in every other game in every other nerf patch.nb4 cookie cutter TR's make cookie cutter gfw's/gf's.When they nerf THAT CC build,they'll jump to the next.FOTM...
I love people who make assumptions when they are heated and sweaty.
PinkSugar, lvl 60 CW.
Baby Cakes, lvl 60 GWF.
*******, lvl 60 TR.
Premium Juicebox, lvl 60 CW.
Pink Exxxtacy, Ranger
There is NO pvp in Neverwinter.
No one said there were no counters. I can solo most rogues in pvp with my DC, and even with my CW, but it requires a high playing skill, while playing a rogue doesn't. It's harder to find a sealthed one than hiding and killing people within 5s. Nerfing their dps and stealth is really a no-brainer if anyone wants a healthy pvp in this game. And if dungeons takes 5-10 more minutes, well, i'm not going to complain about it.
And the spiral continues downwards. This next TR nerf is just the next step of the avalanche, it started with the GWF back in beta, which they reverted and made more powerful. This game will never have balance.
With 45% extra stealth meter on my rogue, stealth is depleted in 5 seconds when using at-wills. That means without any stealth, the usual 5 second duration non-stealth build stealth will last for about 2 attacks. Unless cryptic has gone and done something stupid, like x% of your meter is depleted for each at-will attack. Meaning bonus to stealth doesnt matter since it's x% out of y stealth, the more stealth you have, the more it eats.
But with the changes to PvP items being soulbound I dont see much future for PvP, it's not like GW where you PvP on equal footing from lvl 1 in BGs and you do it for fun. 5vs5 isnt fun, and with no reward (4k AD...) I assume most people wont bother.
I'm also majorly
I just dont think I'll bother anymore with NW. The first M in MMO just doesnt find it's place in NW. 1 zone in this game is like 1/10th of a zone in GW2, WoW or the coming FFXIV. Even ToR which had more linear zones at times (cities) feels like it has more exploring than NW. Heck you had to search and search for holocrons in the most fun and quarky places. Corridors and invisible walls dont fit into an MMO. Even an old game such as DaoC had much vaster zones.
Did you even read the whole nerf about the TR? I hope you did. I recommend you to look/read all the descriptions of the feats of the TR so you'll realize why and how the nerf will greatly affect TR in PvE.
Indeed, I do hope he does, or even takes time to try it on the test shard (if he has a rogue). The changes are over the top.
A fun thing about the thrown skill is, with 8 charges you not only lose 4 charges, you lose 4 steps on the bonus damage aswell, and in addition to that, if you are scoundrel specced, you lose another 1.5% per bonus damage from the talent, thats 6% if you focus on a target.
It's time they scrap the stealth idea as it is and introduce the toggle stealth. Breaking on any attack you do (at-will, encounter or daily), but regens overs 5-6 seconds. This would center the TR more around encounters just like other classes and make at-wills filler skills. Extra at-will effects aswell if you are in stealth (duelist could pop flurry straight of the bat, sly flourish chain would deal 20% more damage with each swing, cloud of steel would unleash the knives 2x as fast i.e 12 knives unleashed in only 6 attacks and the gap closer at-will would snare your target) but they would all render you visible instantly so people could interrupt or whatever.
This would give TRs more to plan for, just like GWFs, CWs and so on, to combine the most beneficial skill setup with the right timing. And it would let them lurk around and find fights in stealth.
PinkSugar, lvl 60 CW.
Baby Cakes, lvl 60 GWF.
*******, lvl 60 TR.
Premium Juicebox, lvl 60 CW.
Pink Exxxtacy, Ranger
There is NO pvp in Neverwinter.
Don't feed the you-know-what everyone. Move along.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
"This is Fleet Commander BumBle!..
Vice Admiral of the U.S.S. Prometheus!..
I order you to lower your shields and weapons or ill be forced to fire upon you!!!"
"This is Fleet Commander BumBle!..
Vice Admiral of the U.S.S. Prometheus!..
I order you to lower your shields and weapons or ill be forced to fire upon you!!!"