1) Foundry goes down more often that cheap street-worker.
If they cared about fixing things there would be less down-time not more.
2) The have "community relations" people who never post anything meaningful on the official community forum.
So they don't care about that either.
3) They want to keep players happy?
Then I suggest they totally reverse the current "model" on which they are trying to do that, because the current model is 100% counter-productive.
4) The Foundry is an awesome concept, just brilliant. If there was one thing at all that could convert me from a totally F2P player to someone who pays for services (extra Foundry/Campaign slots etc) it would be the Foundry. But right now I'd be better off giving whatever money I might spend on this game to the first stranger I see in the street - I'd genuinely get a better return on that investment than wasting on this game. If they want us to give them our money they need to demonstrate to us that doing so will make things better - so far the service is only getting worse.
5) It could be a "patched file" that the Foundry relies on?
So, you are saying they don't even do the very basic minimum level of QA testing? Because the only way that a file that is vital to the Foundry can be so badly affected in a patch is that in testing no one bothered to try to login to the Foundry. That's not just poor QA policy, its incompetent QA policy. Which ties in to 4) above, are you seriously going to give a service-provider money when they have repeatedly demonstrated such incompetence? Really?
QFT.
Foundry: great concept. UGC may solve the always-behind content creation curve.
UGC in F2P: win-win, we get free entertainment, they get free content.
Implementation: worst company (PWE) with a dev team that has one of the worst track records (Cryptic).
Result: no QA (or at least it feels like it), no customer support, little to no official communication with the community, and continual down-time, lost work, and a POed community where the haters complain even harder and the fans flame the haters.
TBH, it would just be nice to see a publisher that could publicly discuss these issues without worrying about image.
Even the company I worked for, I was constantly getting edited by management types who didnt want me, as community manager, telling players that we had x problem, with y thing, and it would take z time to fix. It was always "our isp messed up" or "there was a bug with this 3rd party thing we rely on" or "the routing issue is definitely with your connection, and absolutely nothing to do with a botched bandwidth shaping command on our dns." Anything but admitting responsibility and trusting our customers with the truth.
It'd be nice if a company could just say "yeah, that service breaks every time we do a maintenance reboot, we aren't sure why but we are looking into it. In the mean time if you want to use that service, please bear in mind it'll be broken for a few hours after every maintenance window. "
Tbh, the day I find a publisher that can be that honest with its client base, I'll be happy to sell my relatives into slavery so as to sink some money into their products. It'd be the ultimate goodwill gesture in my book, beyond any freebies, in game items or "we're sorry, have some time credited back to your accounts"
These days more and more people are able to deal with the technical details on a mature level, they'd even be able to dumb it down for people that couldn't get to grips with it. It's a trust issue with technical teams, departments, publishers and developers in almost all walks of life where they believe its better to hand their clients a pile of generic palm off rubbish (even when they know their customers know its total rubbish) than it is just to hold up their hands and say "yeah, we broke stuff, don't worry, we'll fix it."
But beyond all that of course.... you do have to at least accept that for most customers, some indication that you have acknowledged their issue (with regular enough updates that they know you are still thinking about it) is better than a complete communications blackout.
And no, this rant isn't directed at Cryptic specifically, its at the industry on the whole, of which Cryptic is a part. The above is just my opinion, and me putting it in writing that I would personally pay good money to use any service which kept me up to date and made me feel in the loop, and trusted enough that I could be told what was really going on.
QFT.
No companies do what people have been asking for in this thread. None of them. Not gaming companies, not telephony companies, not TV companies, not banks, brokers, retail chains. None of them.
It just doesn't happen. You want a company that has transparency like that, start your own.
No companies do what people have been asking for in this thread. None of them. Not gaming companies, not telephony companies, not TV companies, not banks, brokers, retail chains. None of them.
It just doesn't happen. You want a company that has transparency like that, start your own.
I'm not asking for transparency. I'm asking for the Community Manager to do their darn job and keep us updated. Even if it's just to come in here and sing freakin' kumbaya or some crud. Right now they're trying to pawn off the job on volunteer community moderators. It's not transparency, it's communication.
I work for a university, within an entity that's still non-profit but does external work for clients all throughout my state. State agencies to be exact, such as departments of ____ fill in the blank. And you better believe that they'd be all over us for any downtime of our services (web applications tied to our databases). They're perfectly content when we give them advanced warning of scheduled maintenance downtime, but if we had multi-day downtimes with no info to give them we'd lose our 2-year and 5-year contracts for sure.
Alright, I know this is going to be extremely unpopular, but I am going to put it out there, anyway.
The work of any company is to make money. How they do it may vary, but at the end of the day... no money, no company.
Now, they have a game whose money-making strategy is microtransactions. In the main game, they have many microtransactions. From within the Foundry, they have exactly zero microtransactions.
I absolutely love the Foundry. But I'm going to be straight with you... I don't believe for a second that the Foundry is central to the game. It's a beloved part of it, but I'll be blunt... it's not the money maker. It's not the tail shaker. It doesn't float the bills.
Yes, we're going to be treated like a side quest. If you made a map and had some side quests, you would understand that these side quests aren't the driving factor of how your map gets rated. You would know that those who LOVE the side quests would vote you up because of them, but they'd be maybe 20 out of 500 voters.
Now, say that your side quest breaks when you tweaked your main quest line. All the main quest liners are happy still. They're voting you up like crazy because of your central quest line. But the 20 are screaming their heads of... the only way to fix it, is to take the whole thing down. The entire quest has to come offline to fix something for that 20 people.
The problem is that you can't win with those 20 people. If you say, "I can't fix it until it all comes down tomorrow, anyway. If I do, I will anger the 500 who are my actual voters (money payers)." Now, this admits that the 20 aren't as important. Which, of course, the 20 are going to be really furious about. Even if you admit, yes... you playing the side quest helps to keep my time frame up to where the other 500 can still use it as a daily... the sad truth is that they're just NOT as important to the final point of keeping the quest (or game) afloat.
They ultimately have to cater to the bottom line, or they'll be gone entirely.
We've been given a wonderful tool that we all love. I'm practically addicted to the thing. But the reality of it is that we are an extreme minority. We are the non-paying extreme minority (well, I have bought some stuff, but not related to foundry, so... yeah). They're not going to say so directly, because it's bad business... but they're NOT going to shut everything down to fix something for the minority. That will only infuriate the money-paying majority.
We foundry authors aren't as high a priority. And we can all sit here and cry in our (root) beer about it all we want to. At the end of the day, if the foundry didn't somewhat benefit them, it would NEVER get fixed.
I won't produce too much of a rotten stink about it, myself. Because I am addicted enough to the Foundry at this point that if they wised up and started making it a pay product... I'd pay. Hopefully, there are enough of you unaddicted enough who'll refuse to pay so that they never start doing it.
Breaching the Swarm NW-DUXUHQWNP
Pick your side, take a stand, save--or kill--your former allies.
Alright, I know this is going to be extremely unpopular, but I am going to put it out there, anyway.
The work of any company is to make money. How they do it may vary, but at the end of the day... no money, no company.
Now, they have a game whose money-making strategy is microtransactions. In the main game, they have many microtransactions. From within the Foundry, they have exactly zero microtransactions.
I absolutely love the Foundry. But I'm going to be straight with you... I don't believe for a second that the Foundry is central to the game. It's a beloved part of it, but I'll be blunt... it's not the money maker. It's not the tail shaker. It doesn't float the bills.
Yes, we're going to be treated like a side quest. If you made a map and had some side quests, you would understand that these side quests aren't the driving factor of how your map gets rated. You would know that those who LOVE the side quests would vote you up because of them, but they'd be maybe 20 out of 500 voters.
Now, say that your side quest breaks when you tweaked your main quest line. All the main quest liners are happy still. They're voting you up like crazy because of your central quest line. But the 20 are screaming their heads of... the only way to fix it, is to take the whole thing down. The entire quest has to come offline to fix something for that 20 people.
The problem is that you can't win with those 20 people. If you say, "I can't fix it until it all comes down tomorrow, anyway. If I do, I will anger the 500 who are my actual voters (money payers)." Now, this admits that the 20 aren't as important. Which, of course, the 20 are going to be really furious about. Even if you admit, yes... you playing the side quest helps to keep my time frame up to where the other 500 can still use it as a daily... the sad truth is that they're just NOT as important to the final point of keeping the quest (or game) afloat.
They ultimately have to cater to the bottom line, or they'll be gone entirely.
We've been given a wonderful tool that we all love. I'm practically addicted to the thing. But the reality of it is that we are an extreme minority. We are the non-paying extreme minority (well, I have bought some stuff, but not related to foundry, so... yeah). They're not going to say so directly, because it's bad business... but they're NOT going to shut everything down to fix something for the minority. That will only infuriate the money-paying majority.
We foundry authors aren't as high a priority. And we can all sit here and cry in our (root) beer about it all we want to. At the end of the day, if the foundry didn't somewhat benefit them, it would NEVER get fixed.
I won't produce too much of a rotten stink about it, myself. Because I am addicted enough to the Foundry at this point that if they wised up and started making it a pay product... I'd pay. Hopefully, there are enough of you unaddicted enough who'll refuse to pay so that they never start doing it.
I see your point and get it but what happens if a percentage of the 20 players are part of the 500? I know that some authors also buy stuff. Some, if not most, of the authors are "founders" and still buy stuff.
I absolutely love the Foundry. But I'm going to be straight with you... I don't believe for a second that the Foundry is central to the game. It's a beloved part of it, but I'll be blunt... it's not the money maker. It's not the tail shaker. It doesn't float the bills.
But the Foundry was absolutely central to the promo campaigns for the game.
Being able to write and build your won quests and then release it to a server with thousands of potential players was one of the selling points of the game.
So it is commercially dishonest of Cryptic not to ensure that it works.
It would be like selling a car on the strength of its 7 seater capacity and low fuel consumption but delivering a three seater with high fuel consumption.
Now, they have a game whose money-making strategy is microtransactions. In the main game, they have many microtransactions. From within the Foundry, they have exactly zero microtransactions.
That's a premature conclusion. The Foundry provides Cryptic/PWE a way to gain free UGC. That UGC adds value to the game and in turn contributes to giving paying customers a more flushed-out product.
So in turn the Foundry is work Cryptic/PWE is getting from its community in exchange for entertainment. It's a trade, so it's not 100% free.
But the Foundry was absolutely central to the promo campaigns for the game.
Being able to write and build your won quests and then release it to a server with thousands of potential players was one of the selling points of the game.
So it is commercially dishonest of Cryptic not to ensure that it works.
It would be like selling a car on the strength of its 7 seater capacity and low fuel consumption but delivering a three seater with high fuel consumption.
I don't believe for a second that the Foundry is central to the game. It's a beloved part of it, but I'll be blunt... it's not the money maker. It's not the tail shaker. It doesn't float the bills. Yes, we're going to be treated like a side quest.
Replace the word "Foundry" with "housewife" in your logic. See how horrible that sounds? Please let me know if you'd like to reword that insult to the entire Foundry community.
I see your point and get it but what happens if a percentage of the 20 players are part of the 500? I know that some authors also buy stuff. Some, if not most, of the authors are "founders" and still buy stuff.
Yes, as I mentioned, I also have bought stuff. But the thing is, again... let's say that ALL of the foundry authors buy stuff... you still have 20 angry payers, versus 480 angry payers... which do you think would be worse for business?
I'll be honest, the Foundry is nice because it produces content for them. But it produces content that has little to offer towards the larger impetus of the game. It doesn't take the place of the lacking end game content, because there's no real reward for foundry quests like there would be for raiding (as an example).
I suspect that the Foundry is something that the devs whined, begged, wheedled, and cajoled the money men into allowing. That it adds content is on their side. That it has a lot of noisy, angry fans who become rabid when it goes down is definitely a mark against it. (I say that facetiously, no one has been rabid about it). The upside to that is that all press is good press.
Ultimately, we're an afterthought. And even those of us who are paying afterthoughts don't have the clout that the main herd has. If a few of us get picked off, the main bulk of the paying herd remains.
I think a lot of people don't realize that the Foundry is almost certainly an extremely tertiary consideration. We're fortunate it's ON the list at all. Someone over there, either amongst the devs or the originator of the concept, LOVED tabletops and pulled some serious strings to have the Foundry in this game. Financially, it's not the best decision in the world. It's an eccentricity and was a huge risk. If foundry creators quit en mass in a big huff, it will only go to show that it's a financially unsound investment.
I'm praying for this sort of thing in future games. I doubt that they'll ever do more with it in Neverwinter, because honestly the game isn't well developed enough to last all that long (as it stands right now). The truth is that long-lasting games require content geared towards greed. In this game, there isn't enough prestigious armor that is blatantly e-peen enviable. There's not enough end content, period... and it's too linear.
They made some mistakes in this game, and these mistakes are going to ultimately end them up with a transient population that will die off as bigger and (more addictive) better things come along.
We will be wise to enjoy the Foundry while it lasts. If we can show that the true longevity in this game belongs to the Foundry, other game-makers are going to take note. That means greater and greater likelihood that we'll get more things like the Foundry.
Between NW Foundry and games like Dragon Age that allowed customization of characters... I think game makers are beginning to take notice that Gamers these days want more participation. But we also have to remember that this concept is in its infancy, and until game-makers wake up to the truth of how potent this really is (it's the wave of the future), we're going to be stuck as the red-headed stepchildren (no genuine insult intended to gingers, you are beautiful!).
The wave of the future starts with an idea. Someone pushed this idea through, and you can bet your bottom dollar that it wasn't with the blessing of the short-sighted money-wo/men.
We aren't the priority, because we aren't where the money-making is. Do we REALLY want to change THAT? Do we REALLY want them to see us as a money market? I don't, personally...
Breaching the Swarm NW-DUXUHQWNP
Pick your side, take a stand, save--or kill--your former allies.
This thread is getting complex, with complex theories, and who's to blame finger pointing... It's full of business strategies, and multi layered argument...
Lets not move away from the simplicity of what we are actually asking for!
Someone to spend 5 minutes of their time to tell us whats happening!! Its not like we are asking for much!
Replace the word "Foundry" with "housewife" in your logic. See how horrible that sounds? Please let me know if you'd like to reword that insult to the entire Foundry community.
I am a housewife. A stay-at-home housewife. The reality of it is that I get the old video card when hubby upgrades. I drive the old, paid off car; when we get a new car, he drives it. When we get the SUV that we NEED but neither of us want, I will be the one stuck driving it.
Practicality and real life isn't always politically correct. No, I don't get a lot of pretty new clothes. I don't have an office to go to, so I don't need them.
Sometimes it bothers me, just like it bugs me right now that they're not fixing this foundry bug. But when I sit down and I'm honest with myself about it, each of these decisions makes logical sense from a "keeping the family afloat" standpoint. If he drives the SUV, it'll be around $3,000 more per year for us (conservative estimate). Why? Because of his commute and the poor gas mileage of SUVs. So while it feels bad to have to drive an SUV (I hate the things), it's necessary for our family's financial means.
Are you a housewife? Do you understand that, practically speaking, I would be doing my entire family a disservice if I were to scream and cry about not having to drive the SUV that we need to have for various reasons? Would making my husband drive it because I don't want to, really serve my family well?
Political correctness aside, in real life, you have to do some things sometimes that you don't prefer to. Sometimes you even have to suck it up and appreciate the fact that working a job pays the bills, but taking care of the child from in the home only manages to defray some bills.
The players of the regular game who buy zen are paying our bills. It might not be politically correct for them to make us drive the SUV... but logically, it's the best solution.
Breaching the Swarm NW-DUXUHQWNP
Pick your side, take a stand, save--or kill--your former allies.
0
cipher9nemoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
the Foundry is nice because it produces content for them. But it produces content that has little to offer towards the larger impetus of the game.
You might have that opinion, but it's not the truth. Many of the MMO reviewers would disagree with you, as would I, as would even Cryptic/PWE's marketing.
Use it or not, the Foundry is an important factor to a large portion of the playerbase.
Quests getting boring? Play some Foundry! Imagined that quest-line having a different outcome? Make it so in the Foundry!
Plus, a lot of people are here because it's a DnD MMO, if it was just a generic fantasy MMO they'd be playing something else. The Foundry allows them to explore and play with the lore as much as they like~
The players of the regular game who buy zen are paying our bills. It might not be politically correct for them to make us drive the SUV... but logically, it's the best solution.
Loved the entire post but this raised a question for me.
Would we as UGC authors be willing to use zen for extra foundry perks?
Say, paying for one totally custom mob, 5 place-able skill nodes, 1 extra treasure chest (side-quest reward anyone?), the ability to use an in-game boss, etc etc?
I'm not saying I would, but at least the Foundry could at least start contributing to the bottom line.
0
cipher9nemoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Use it or not, the Foundry is an important factor to a large portion of the playerbase.
Quests getting boring? Play some Foundry! Imagined that quest-line having a different outcome? Make it so in the Foundry!
Plus, a lot of people are here because it's a DnD MMO, if it was just a generic fantasy MMO they'd be playing something else. The Foundry allows them to explore and play with the lore as much as they like~
Indeed.
There are three groups in which we could artificially lump together customers...
1.) D&D Fans. For simplicity sake, we could put Cryptic/PWE fans in here as well, even though the two can be quite different. There are quite a few fans here of the D&D game and its many books, works of fiction, etc. Some from Neverwinter Nights.
2.) UGC Fans. I am of this group. The Foundry is the ONLY thing keeping me here at this point. I love D&D, but I can get D&D fantasy style environments and lore from other places.
3.) MMO Fans. I have been in this group before. This is the group that comes in to play new MMOs, then when they don't live up to our MMO expectations, we leave in a matter of months. They come from other MMOs in which they're burnt out on, be it WoW, Rift, GW2, and dozens more.
If you take out any of those three groups you'll have a failed Neverwinter. Get rid of the D&D or developer fans and you'll have no long-term core. Get rid of the UGC fans and you'll have no long-term content. Get rid of the MMO fans and you'll lose a big portion of your in-game sales. So with Cryptic's treatment of the Foundry so far they're hurting both the D&D and UGC groups.
I think if they made it so that you had to pay to make better quests, then people would get extremely pissed off.
However, I wouldn't mind if you could pay for extra Campaign/Quest slots.
Also, just on that note, I doubt they'll ever let us place skill nodes/chests in Foundries, otherwise people would just make a single room with the max number that people could farm over and over.
I do hope they allow for split-quest objectives though, I'd love to have complex quest-lines with different endings based on if you're Good/Evil/Lawful/Chaotic etc etc (If there is a way to do this that I haven't found yet, please PLEASE inform me. Thanks)
0
cipher9nemoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Would we as UGC authors be willing to use zen for extra foundry perks?
I would not. That would get me to leave, absolutely. It's not like I don't mind spending money on a game I enjoy, it's the principle of it that would really sour me on Neverwinter. Already it feels somewhat pay-to-win for the game itself, but since I'm mostly interested in UGC, that part doesn't bug me as much. But if that mentality came into the Foundry, I'd be gone.
From what I've seen so far, I'm waiting until the servers are back up to complete my first, massive, original quest. Once that quest is published, and may be any oversights fixed over time, I don't want much to do with the Foundry editor until it's revamped. I'm already disappointed with the bugs, server timeouts, and general chunkiness of it. If it doesn't improve I'd rather spin up my own indie games with other commercial software like the Unity engine as my hobby. Those editors are so much more powerful. And since I'm a software engineer at work, the little bit of coding to fill in the gaps is not a problem.
However, I wouldn't mind if you could pay for extra Campaign/Quest slots.
This is most likely where it will start, though it might be useful to brainstorm what possible paid-for-perks would not break the Foundry as I agree the farming maps would definitely get out of hand.
If PWE and Cryptic are going to treat the Foundry as a side-show because it is not paying the bills I for one would like to discover a solution that might make servicing the Foundry more palatable to the devs. ie: Foundry related microtransactions
You might have that opinion, but it's not the truth. Many of the MMO reviewers would disagree with you, as would I, as would even Cryptic/PWE's marketing.
So, I read each of those. And interestingly enough, each one of them seems to read exactly as I said... that it's not about the Foundry builders, it's about "bored? go find a foundry quest to run!". Which again seems like the "integral" part isn't the making of the quests, but the ability to exploit us builders to find new content...
Which is definitely the way they all seem to read. Not so much that making the quests is intended to be the fun part, but using the player-made content is supposed to help alleviate boredom (and they never questioned why the boredom exists in the first place?).
QFT. I wish the Cryptic/PWE employee paid to be community manager would do their job for our sake.
Hey, I'm not saying that it's okay. I'm not saying that it's good. I think it's kinda awful, and that it's disrespectful.
I AM, however, saying that they can't really win with us, and that we're a small enough minority that we're not going to get the grease that can go to the paying customers. Not that this is okay, but that it's most likely the reality of the situation.
I have a feeling that Zeb got his wrist slapped for speaking up. And for that, I say shame on whomever did it. Shame on the people calling the shots who are remaining silent. A little courtesy might fail with some people, but would succeed mightily with a lot of other people. They need a new customer-relations agent, because either they don't have one right now, or they have a horrible one who needs to go to a better college.
My point is only that, perspective would help us all on a personal level. Remembering that right now, we're not a financial target, could help us to be a little more patient. If we become a priority, we'll also become a money-making target. Sometimes it's better to be not the priority.
Breaching the Swarm NW-DUXUHQWNP
Pick your side, take a stand, save--or kill--your former allies.
0
cipher9nemoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
My point is only that, perspective would help us all on a personal level. Remembering that right now, we're not a financial target, could help us to be a little more patient. If we become a priority, we'll also become a money-making target. Sometimes it's better to be not the priority.
Your perspective, not mine, and not necessarily the reality of it all. Cryptic may be incompetent in being able to maintain a reliable service, but they're not completely naive. They know the Foundry is giving them free content. Free work. If they thought it didn't bring them any value they wouldn't have started the Foundry back in the STO days. They know the Foundry is important to Neverwinter, but they don't really know the level of patience the UGC community has yet. So if we keep rolling over as if the Foundry is just a "side quest" (your words) then they will keep abusing that on their priority list.
The players of the regular game who buy zen are paying our bills. It might not be politically correct for them to make us drive the SUV... but logically, it's the best solution.
Huh. I'm technically a housewife, too, and a caregiver for my parents. We have one car that fits five people, and it's not a gas-guzzling SUV. When we get another car, it'll be a fuel-efficient station wagon. The reality of it is that I have the best PC in the household. I've probably sunk more money into this game than the majority of non-Foundry authors - why do I waste money on the game? Just for fun, and it's not ruining our finances. You can bet Cryptic will want to keep my business. I don't see what so-called "political correctness" has to do with it. My family couldn't function without my unpaid labor, and my partner never pretends that his work is worth more than mine.
As many people have said before in many threads, a percentage of players will power-level through the game, then get bored and leave. The people who stay and pay for zen are the ones who enjoy new Foundry content.
Foundry Editing is currently offline due to an issue with the server that the team is currently troubleshooting.
Our engineers are looking into this around the clock so that we can enable it again ASAP. At this time we do not have an ETA regarding when it will be available, but plan to continue investigating until a reliable solution is found.
Thank you for your patience while we work on this issue. We will keep you in the loop regarding progress!
Found this in the "General Discussions" section, was posted about 15 minutes ago. Looks like we're in for another outage like that 4 day mess....
Campaign: NWS-DE986PLQS - Zombie Infestation
NW-DIG3FBD2Q - Part 1 - Initial Attack - (Eligible for daily) Click here to see Video review by @Visigoth18
NW-DNG6BTL9C - Part 2 - Retaliation - (Now daily eligible - thanks for the support everyone)
Found this in the "General Discussions" section, was posted about 15 minutes ago. Looks like we're in for another outage like that 4 day mess....
thanks for reposting it here, as I don't bother looking at the general boards
Well I guess if there's a 4 day foundry outage, I'll just keep my fingers crossed that they fix the map transition bug thats slaughtering my quest as part of their work
0
cipher9nemoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I don't see what so-called "political correctness" has to do with it. My family couldn't function without my unpaid labor, and my partner never pretends that his work is worth more than mine.
I absolutely appreciate that sentiment. I hate political correctness just as much as I hate it when some tries to artificially devalue an entire community as someone has done in this thread.
I think I'm done with this joke of a ****ing company.
Yeah, I'm feeling that way too. I wouldn't be as blunt as you, but when I'm done with my one quest that I've put some much time into I'm going to float around Neverwtiner in an semi-idle state until I see what Cryptic/PWE eventually does with it.
Huh. I'm technically a housewife, too, and a caregiver for my parents. We have one car that fits five people, and it's not a gas-guzzling SUV. When we get another car, it'll be a fuel-efficient station wagon. The reality of it is that I have the best PC in the household. I've probably sunk more money into this game than the majority of non-Foundry authors - why do I waste money on the game? Just for fun, and it's not ruining our finances. You can bet Cryptic will want to keep my business. I don't see what so-called "political correctness" has to do with it. My family couldn't function without my unpaid labor, and my partner never pretends that his work is worth more than mine.
As many people have said before in many threads, a percentage of players will power-level through the game, then get bored and leave. The people who stay and pay for zen are the ones who enjoy new Foundry content.
Congratulations to you that your husband makes so much money that you can buy anything you want, whenever you want. Unfortunately, since companies are focused on saving as much as possible while making as much as possible, that invalidates you as an example of what I'm talking about, and also explains why you don't understand the PC references.
Thanks, though. And again, I'm so happy for you that you have such a luxurious life. It's wonderful that you do, but it doesn't speak to the penny pinching realities that the rest of us face (and that corporations choose as a matter of course).
Breaching the Swarm NW-DUXUHQWNP
Pick your side, take a stand, save--or kill--your former allies.
Honestly, I can't believe they didn't post that in the Foundry section... Seems like, I dunno, maybe it'd fit the general theme of this section of the forums...
Comments
QFT.
Foundry: great concept. UGC may solve the always-behind content creation curve.
UGC in F2P: win-win, we get free entertainment, they get free content.
Implementation: worst company (PWE) with a dev team that has one of the worst track records (Cryptic).
Result: no QA (or at least it feels like it), no customer support, little to no official communication with the community, and continual down-time, lost work, and a POed community where the haters complain even harder and the fans flame the haters.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
So, it's all your fault then? You just had to press the big red button, didn't you?
QFT.
No companies do what people have been asking for in this thread. None of them. Not gaming companies, not telephony companies, not TV companies, not banks, brokers, retail chains. None of them.
It just doesn't happen. You want a company that has transparency like that, start your own.
Then why are you still here complaining instead of voting with your feet?
I'm not asking for transparency. I'm asking for the Community Manager to do their darn job and keep us updated. Even if it's just to come in here and sing freakin' kumbaya or some crud. Right now they're trying to pawn off the job on volunteer community moderators. It's not transparency, it's communication.
I work for a university, within an entity that's still non-profit but does external work for clients all throughout my state. State agencies to be exact, such as departments of ____ fill in the blank. And you better believe that they'd be all over us for any downtime of our services (web applications tied to our databases). They're perfectly content when we give them advanced warning of scheduled maintenance downtime, but if we had multi-day downtimes with no info to give them we'd lose our 2-year and 5-year contracts for sure.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
The work of any company is to make money. How they do it may vary, but at the end of the day... no money, no company.
Now, they have a game whose money-making strategy is microtransactions. In the main game, they have many microtransactions. From within the Foundry, they have exactly zero microtransactions.
I absolutely love the Foundry. But I'm going to be straight with you... I don't believe for a second that the Foundry is central to the game. It's a beloved part of it, but I'll be blunt... it's not the money maker. It's not the tail shaker. It doesn't float the bills.
Yes, we're going to be treated like a side quest. If you made a map and had some side quests, you would understand that these side quests aren't the driving factor of how your map gets rated. You would know that those who LOVE the side quests would vote you up because of them, but they'd be maybe 20 out of 500 voters.
Now, say that your side quest breaks when you tweaked your main quest line. All the main quest liners are happy still. They're voting you up like crazy because of your central quest line. But the 20 are screaming their heads of... the only way to fix it, is to take the whole thing down. The entire quest has to come offline to fix something for that 20 people.
The problem is that you can't win with those 20 people. If you say, "I can't fix it until it all comes down tomorrow, anyway. If I do, I will anger the 500 who are my actual voters (money payers)." Now, this admits that the 20 aren't as important. Which, of course, the 20 are going to be really furious about. Even if you admit, yes... you playing the side quest helps to keep my time frame up to where the other 500 can still use it as a daily... the sad truth is that they're just NOT as important to the final point of keeping the quest (or game) afloat.
They ultimately have to cater to the bottom line, or they'll be gone entirely.
We've been given a wonderful tool that we all love. I'm practically addicted to the thing. But the reality of it is that we are an extreme minority. We are the non-paying extreme minority (well, I have bought some stuff, but not related to foundry, so... yeah). They're not going to say so directly, because it's bad business... but they're NOT going to shut everything down to fix something for the minority. That will only infuriate the money-paying majority.
We foundry authors aren't as high a priority. And we can all sit here and cry in our (root) beer about it all we want to. At the end of the day, if the foundry didn't somewhat benefit them, it would NEVER get fixed.
I won't produce too much of a rotten stink about it, myself. Because I am addicted enough to the Foundry at this point that if they wised up and started making it a pay product... I'd pay. Hopefully, there are enough of you unaddicted enough who'll refuse to pay so that they never start doing it.
Pick your side, take a stand, save--or kill--your former allies.
I see your point and get it but what happens if a percentage of the 20 players are part of the 500? I know that some authors also buy stuff. Some, if not most, of the authors are "founders" and still buy stuff.
But the Foundry was absolutely central to the promo campaigns for the game.
Being able to write and build your won quests and then release it to a server with thousands of potential players was one of the selling points of the game.
So it is commercially dishonest of Cryptic not to ensure that it works.
It would be like selling a car on the strength of its 7 seater capacity and low fuel consumption but delivering a three seater with high fuel consumption.
All The Best
Looking For Reviews For Your Foundry Quest?
Drop By Scribe's Enclave & Meet Up With Volunteer Reviewers.
That's a premature conclusion. The Foundry provides Cryptic/PWE a way to gain free UGC. That UGC adds value to the game and in turn contributes to giving paying customers a more flushed-out product.
So in turn the Foundry is work Cryptic/PWE is getting from its community in exchange for entertainment. It's a trade, so it's not 100% free.
Exactly.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
Replace the word "Foundry" with "housewife" in your logic. See how horrible that sounds? Please let me know if you'd like to reword that insult to the entire Foundry community.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
Yes, as I mentioned, I also have bought stuff. But the thing is, again... let's say that ALL of the foundry authors buy stuff... you still have 20 angry payers, versus 480 angry payers... which do you think would be worse for business?
I'll be honest, the Foundry is nice because it produces content for them. But it produces content that has little to offer towards the larger impetus of the game. It doesn't take the place of the lacking end game content, because there's no real reward for foundry quests like there would be for raiding (as an example).
I suspect that the Foundry is something that the devs whined, begged, wheedled, and cajoled the money men into allowing. That it adds content is on their side. That it has a lot of noisy, angry fans who become rabid when it goes down is definitely a mark against it. (I say that facetiously, no one has been rabid about it). The upside to that is that all press is good press.
Ultimately, we're an afterthought. And even those of us who are paying afterthoughts don't have the clout that the main herd has. If a few of us get picked off, the main bulk of the paying herd remains.
I think a lot of people don't realize that the Foundry is almost certainly an extremely tertiary consideration. We're fortunate it's ON the list at all. Someone over there, either amongst the devs or the originator of the concept, LOVED tabletops and pulled some serious strings to have the Foundry in this game. Financially, it's not the best decision in the world. It's an eccentricity and was a huge risk. If foundry creators quit en mass in a big huff, it will only go to show that it's a financially unsound investment.
I'm praying for this sort of thing in future games. I doubt that they'll ever do more with it in Neverwinter, because honestly the game isn't well developed enough to last all that long (as it stands right now). The truth is that long-lasting games require content geared towards greed. In this game, there isn't enough prestigious armor that is blatantly e-peen enviable. There's not enough end content, period... and it's too linear.
They made some mistakes in this game, and these mistakes are going to ultimately end them up with a transient population that will die off as bigger and (more addictive) better things come along.
We will be wise to enjoy the Foundry while it lasts. If we can show that the true longevity in this game belongs to the Foundry, other game-makers are going to take note. That means greater and greater likelihood that we'll get more things like the Foundry.
Between NW Foundry and games like Dragon Age that allowed customization of characters... I think game makers are beginning to take notice that Gamers these days want more participation. But we also have to remember that this concept is in its infancy, and until game-makers wake up to the truth of how potent this really is (it's the wave of the future), we're going to be stuck as the red-headed stepchildren (no genuine insult intended to gingers, you are beautiful!).
The wave of the future starts with an idea. Someone pushed this idea through, and you can bet your bottom dollar that it wasn't with the blessing of the short-sighted money-wo/men.
We aren't the priority, because we aren't where the money-making is. Do we REALLY want to change THAT? Do we REALLY want them to see us as a money market? I don't, personally...
Pick your side, take a stand, save--or kill--your former allies.
Lets not move away from the simplicity of what we are actually asking for!
Someone to spend 5 minutes of their time to tell us whats happening!! Its not like we are asking for much!
Art (aka Casek)
Part 1: A Mysterious Portal: - NW-DIKGSOTWT
Part 2: Into the forest: Out now - NW DAVOJC8N7
Part 3: Through the portal: 50% Finished!
Part 4: Lvl 113
Does YOUR FOUNDRY need more plays? Try this thread: Click here
I am a housewife. A stay-at-home housewife. The reality of it is that I get the old video card when hubby upgrades. I drive the old, paid off car; when we get a new car, he drives it. When we get the SUV that we NEED but neither of us want, I will be the one stuck driving it.
Practicality and real life isn't always politically correct. No, I don't get a lot of pretty new clothes. I don't have an office to go to, so I don't need them.
Sometimes it bothers me, just like it bugs me right now that they're not fixing this foundry bug. But when I sit down and I'm honest with myself about it, each of these decisions makes logical sense from a "keeping the family afloat" standpoint. If he drives the SUV, it'll be around $3,000 more per year for us (conservative estimate). Why? Because of his commute and the poor gas mileage of SUVs. So while it feels bad to have to drive an SUV (I hate the things), it's necessary for our family's financial means.
Are you a housewife? Do you understand that, practically speaking, I would be doing my entire family a disservice if I were to scream and cry about not having to drive the SUV that we need to have for various reasons? Would making my husband drive it because I don't want to, really serve my family well?
Political correctness aside, in real life, you have to do some things sometimes that you don't prefer to. Sometimes you even have to suck it up and appreciate the fact that working a job pays the bills, but taking care of the child from in the home only manages to defray some bills.
The players of the regular game who buy zen are paying our bills. It might not be politically correct for them to make us drive the SUV... but logically, it's the best solution.
Pick your side, take a stand, save--or kill--your former allies.
You might have that opinion, but it's not the truth. Many of the MMO reviewers would disagree with you, as would I, as would even Cryptic/PWE's marketing.
From Gamesbeat:
From Joystiq:
From GameZone:
From WarCry:
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
QFT. I wish the Cryptic/PWE employee paid to be community manager would do their job for our sake.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
Quests getting boring? Play some Foundry! Imagined that quest-line having a different outcome? Make it so in the Foundry!
Plus, a lot of people are here because it's a DnD MMO, if it was just a generic fantasy MMO they'd be playing something else. The Foundry allows them to explore and play with the lore as much as they like~
Loved the entire post but this raised a question for me.
Would we as UGC authors be willing to use zen for extra foundry perks?
Say, paying for one totally custom mob, 5 place-able skill nodes, 1 extra treasure chest (side-quest reward anyone?), the ability to use an in-game boss, etc etc?
I'm not saying I would, but at least the Foundry could at least start contributing to the bottom line.
Indeed.
There are three groups in which we could artificially lump together customers...
1.) D&D Fans. For simplicity sake, we could put Cryptic/PWE fans in here as well, even though the two can be quite different. There are quite a few fans here of the D&D game and its many books, works of fiction, etc. Some from Neverwinter Nights.
2.) UGC Fans. I am of this group. The Foundry is the ONLY thing keeping me here at this point. I love D&D, but I can get D&D fantasy style environments and lore from other places.
3.) MMO Fans. I have been in this group before. This is the group that comes in to play new MMOs, then when they don't live up to our MMO expectations, we leave in a matter of months. They come from other MMOs in which they're burnt out on, be it WoW, Rift, GW2, and dozens more.
If you take out any of those three groups you'll have a failed Neverwinter. Get rid of the D&D or developer fans and you'll have no long-term core. Get rid of the UGC fans and you'll have no long-term content. Get rid of the MMO fans and you'll lose a big portion of your in-game sales. So with Cryptic's treatment of the Foundry so far they're hurting both the D&D and UGC groups.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
However, I wouldn't mind if you could pay for extra Campaign/Quest slots.
Also, just on that note, I doubt they'll ever let us place skill nodes/chests in Foundries, otherwise people would just make a single room with the max number that people could farm over and over.
I do hope they allow for split-quest objectives though, I'd love to have complex quest-lines with different endings based on if you're Good/Evil/Lawful/Chaotic etc etc (If there is a way to do this that I haven't found yet, please PLEASE inform me. Thanks)
I would not. That would get me to leave, absolutely. It's not like I don't mind spending money on a game I enjoy, it's the principle of it that would really sour me on Neverwinter. Already it feels somewhat pay-to-win for the game itself, but since I'm mostly interested in UGC, that part doesn't bug me as much. But if that mentality came into the Foundry, I'd be gone.
From what I've seen so far, I'm waiting until the servers are back up to complete my first, massive, original quest. Once that quest is published, and may be any oversights fixed over time, I don't want much to do with the Foundry editor until it's revamped. I'm already disappointed with the bugs, server timeouts, and general chunkiness of it. If it doesn't improve I'd rather spin up my own indie games with other commercial software like the Unity engine as my hobby. Those editors are so much more powerful. And since I'm a software engineer at work, the little bit of coding to fill in the gaps is not a problem.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
This is most likely where it will start, though it might be useful to brainstorm what possible paid-for-perks would not break the Foundry as I agree the farming maps would definitely get out of hand.
If PWE and Cryptic are going to treat the Foundry as a side-show because it is not paying the bills I for one would like to discover a solution that might make servicing the Foundry more palatable to the devs. ie: Foundry related microtransactions
So, I read each of those. And interestingly enough, each one of them seems to read exactly as I said... that it's not about the Foundry builders, it's about "bored? go find a foundry quest to run!". Which again seems like the "integral" part isn't the making of the quests, but the ability to exploit us builders to find new content...
Which is definitely the way they all seem to read. Not so much that making the quests is intended to be the fun part, but using the player-made content is supposed to help alleviate boredom (and they never questioned why the boredom exists in the first place?).
Hey, I'm not saying that it's okay. I'm not saying that it's good. I think it's kinda awful, and that it's disrespectful.
I AM, however, saying that they can't really win with us, and that we're a small enough minority that we're not going to get the grease that can go to the paying customers. Not that this is okay, but that it's most likely the reality of the situation.
I have a feeling that Zeb got his wrist slapped for speaking up. And for that, I say shame on whomever did it. Shame on the people calling the shots who are remaining silent. A little courtesy might fail with some people, but would succeed mightily with a lot of other people. They need a new customer-relations agent, because either they don't have one right now, or they have a horrible one who needs to go to a better college.
My point is only that, perspective would help us all on a personal level. Remembering that right now, we're not a financial target, could help us to be a little more patient. If we become a priority, we'll also become a money-making target. Sometimes it's better to be not the priority.
Pick your side, take a stand, save--or kill--your former allies.
Your perspective, not mine, and not necessarily the reality of it all. Cryptic may be incompetent in being able to maintain a reliable service, but they're not completely naive. They know the Foundry is giving them free content. Free work. If they thought it didn't bring them any value they wouldn't have started the Foundry back in the STO days. They know the Foundry is important to Neverwinter, but they don't really know the level of patience the UGC community has yet. So if we keep rolling over as if the Foundry is just a "side quest" (your words) then they will keep abusing that on their priority list.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
Huh. I'm technically a housewife, too, and a caregiver for my parents. We have one car that fits five people, and it's not a gas-guzzling SUV. When we get another car, it'll be a fuel-efficient station wagon. The reality of it is that I have the best PC in the household. I've probably sunk more money into this game than the majority of non-Foundry authors - why do I waste money on the game? Just for fun, and it's not ruining our finances. You can bet Cryptic will want to keep my business. I don't see what so-called "political correctness" has to do with it. My family couldn't function without my unpaid labor, and my partner never pretends that his work is worth more than mine.
As many people have said before in many threads, a percentage of players will power-level through the game, then get bored and leave. The people who stay and pay for zen are the ones who enjoy new Foundry content.
Found this in the "General Discussions" section, was posted about 15 minutes ago. Looks like we're in for another outage like that 4 day mess....
NW-DIG3FBD2Q - Part 1 - Initial Attack - (Eligible for daily) Click here to see Video review by @Visigoth18
NW-DNG6BTL9C - Part 2 - Retaliation - (Now daily eligible - thanks for the support everyone)
thanks for reposting it here, as I don't bother looking at the general boards
Well I guess if there's a 4 day foundry outage, I'll just keep my fingers crossed that they fix the map transition bug thats slaughtering my quest as part of their work
Yeah, I'm feeling that way too. I wouldn't be as blunt as you, but when I'm done with my one quest that I've put some much time into I'm going to float around Neverwtiner in an semi-idle state until I see what Cryptic/PWE eventually does with it.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
Congratulations to you that your husband makes so much money that you can buy anything you want, whenever you want. Unfortunately, since companies are focused on saving as much as possible while making as much as possible, that invalidates you as an example of what I'm talking about, and also explains why you don't understand the PC references.
Thanks, though. And again, I'm so happy for you that you have such a luxurious life. It's wonderful that you do, but it doesn't speak to the penny pinching realities that the rest of us face (and that corporations choose as a matter of course).
Pick your side, take a stand, save--or kill--your former allies.