Let's tally the scoreboard then, huh? Foundry servers seem to go down more often than a street worker looking for anything that resembles white powder. Crudeness aside, either Cryptic is incompetent or they don't care, take your pick. Remember the all Sunday downtime for the Foundry servers? Remember the four day downtime? Remember the sporadic downtime? And now all Wednesday evening. All of this in just two months? Brilliant... if they like shooting themselves in the foot.
I could type a thousand more rants about Cryptic and the unreliability of the Foundry servers/platform, but it still comes down to incompetent devs/NetOps or they just don't care enough to throw enough resources at it like they do with the game itself. And that's eventually going to kill the UGC interest in Neverwinter unless they improve their track record.
delrachnidMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 49
edited July 2013
That sounds nice Crimson and I don't mean this to sound like I'm coming down on you, but that's a load. It's fine for the engineers to have their head down and not notice time passing, but the company itself is not made up of engineers. They have community relations that is suppose to, I don't know, relate to the community what is going on. Foundry has been down half a day. A Wednesday right in the middle of a work week. Not that game developers are a Monday through Friday job, but it's not like we are talking about the weekend here. Someone is in that office that's not actively got their head in hardware and probably has a name tag that says something along the lines of "Public Relations." It's a significant amount of downtime on a key aspect of their game and they have said nothing. That's inexcusable.
0
cipher9nemoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
That sounds nice Crimson and I don't mean this to sound like I'm coming down on you, but that's a load. It's fine for the engineers to have their head down and not notice time passing, but the company itself is not made up of engineers. They have community relations that is suppose to, I don't know, relate to the community what is going on. Foundry has been down half a day. A Wednesday right in the middle of a work week. Not that game developers are a Monday through Friday job, but it's not like we are talking about the weekend here. Someone is in that office that's not actively got their head in hardware and probably has a name tag that says something along the lines of "Public Relations." It's a significant amount of downtime on a key aspect of their game and they have said nothing. That's inexcusable.
100% agreed.
For example, we get more communication from volunteer community moderators than a person PAID to do that job. It is pathetic.
Half day? Evening? It's been down since BEFORE 9am!
Ah, thanks for mentioning that. I was at work so didn't know when it went down. Make that all day then. I wonder if it will reach another multi-day fiasco like that 4-day outage right before launch?
If a tree falls in a virtual forest, how big is the sound file?
Please review my "Finger of God" campaign: NWS-DPJMGYJGV
Quest #1: NW-DS24FX4BC - Cragsford
Quest #2: NW-DTPUNXUAB - Mine's Mine
Quest #3: NW-DIPZQ7CMS - Are We There Yeti?
Quest #4: NW-DSCFDT5WS - Finger of God
Yeah, and with my luck I started my first foundry map the day before that 4 day fiasco. I had nearly given up entirely on the foundry, when out of the blue, "hey, it actually works?".
Campaign: NWS-DE986PLQS - Zombie Infestation
NW-DIG3FBD2Q - Part 1 - Initial Attack - (Eligible for daily) Click here to see Video review by @Visigoth18
NW-DNG6BTL9C - Part 2 - Retaliation - (Now daily eligible - thanks for the support everyone)
aldraziMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited July 2013
Aw man... I was looking forward to making my first real dungeon. (I had just finished fiddling around, figuring out how to reskin, map transitions, items, ect...
Oh well... perhaps I could lv my GWF..
Altradi lv 4 Halfling GWF.
0
delthaninMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 188Bounty Hunter
I have been in the computer industry for years and understand how troubleshooting and problem solving works when it comes to crashed systems, hardware failures, and just user issues.
At this point they have not said what the issue is, it could be something as simple as the patch changed a file that the Foundry relied on, or it could be more extreme as hardware failure or corruption. When a system goes down and as an engineer that is responsible for troubleshooting issues, you go heads down and hours go by without even knowing it.
For those that think that they do not care, or don't have any interest in letting people know what is going on, you could not be more wrong. The game as a whole is their life blood and their paycheck, if people don't play, they don't buy things. If they don't buy things, then they have to lay off more people. It is a cascading issue that they want to have nothing to do with. They want to keep players happy, and they are doing their best to fix the issues and get things back to normal.
I am sure that they understand that the Foundry is what makes the game unique and special, and what keeps people coming back. I agree that it would be nice to have at least someone telling us that there is something being done and any estimations on when things will be fixed, but even without it, I have confidence that it will happen.
Where's the evidence of any of this.
1) Foundry goes down more often that cheap street-worker.
If they cared about fixing things there would be less down-time not more.
2) The have "community relations" people who never post anything meaningful on the official community forum.
So they don't care about that either.
3) They want to keep players happy?
Then I suggest they totally reverse the current "model" on which they are trying to do that, because the current model is 100% counter-productive.
4) The Foundry is an awesome concept, just brilliant. If there was one thing at all that could convert me from a totally F2P player to someone who pays for services (extra Foundry/Campaign slots etc) it would be the Foundry. But right now I'd be better off giving whatever money I might spend on this game to the first stranger I see in the street - I'd genuinely get a better return on that investment than wasting on this game. If they want us to give them our money they need to demonstrate to us that doing so will make things better - so far the service is only getting worse.
5) It could be a "patched file" that the Foundry relies on?
So, you are saying they don't even do the very basic minimum level of QA testing? Because the only way that a file that is vital to the Foundry can be so badly affected in a patch is that in testing no one bothered to try to login to the Foundry. That's not just poor QA policy, its incompetent QA policy. Which ties in to 4) above, are you seriously going to give a service-provider money when they have repeatedly demonstrated such incompetence? Really?
I don't care that there are problems, with computers problems can happen at any time for almost any reason, I just care that they basically haven't said anything. Just a "We're working on it"...
In every other MMO I've played, when something major goes down they tell you what's wrong, or that they're not sure what the problem is, and when they expect to resolve the issue (And they post if they estimate changes).
It might just be me, but I just get the impression they don't really care... 5 pages before they confirmed it was down on their end, and even then there was basically zero information given. And on top of that, this is a common problem with the Foundry, it seems that it's going down every other day...
I logged off last night in the vain hope that this morning would show a working foundry.. Instead I find 'Foundry Editing not allowed' and NO WORD from anyone a PW. Whatever anyone says to counter this argument PW are in the wrong here!
This thread has been bouncing up and down near the top slot now for many hours, it is the ONLY place on the forums where everyone who is involved with the foundry comes! To offer no word of anything is unthinkable!
Whats worse, is the general 'feeling' here on the foundry forums, a feeling expressed by a large percentage of these posts is that PW should be saying something!!
It boggles my mind that they are reading these words to completely ignore them! Have a heart people of PW, say something! Surely your further forward with an idea of whats wrong! So give us SOME kind of clue.
Thanks for your consideration of the people who love your game and editor... Anything would be nice.
While I agree that it would be nice to hear more what Cryptic has planned for the Foundry in the future, (such as more details, options, fixes etc.) I'm just happy that there is a tool available for us to create and share adventures with each other.
(It has been somewhat of a dream ever since Neverwinter Nights and the Aurora Toolset.)
So far I've seen many lovely ideas, a lot of creative workarounds and mechanics not seen anywhere else than a few unique quests and I've met (well, chatted to) many friendly people eager to share ideas and feedback.
For me, this is the strength of Neverwinter and the Foundry.
Sure, things aren't great all the time with bugs and all, but then again I don't *have* to be online all the time either.
Furthermore, as it's free, (that is, it's impossible to pay for anything Foundry-ish at the moment) I see it more as a bonus than something I'm entitled to.
So to Cryptic: I hope you guys will tell us what you have in mind for the Foundry, I'm looking forward to it, I'm sure!
And to all authors: Thanks for all your hard work so far, I can honestly say that I haven't tried many quests that I haven't been able to love in one way or another so far!
Rescue in Rainwall, ID: NW-DRQK3HKVV Chef's Challenge, ID: NW-DGTKIBVF3 The Dreamfall Campaign, ID: NWS-DEB7Z9IJC(3 Quests) Ogre: For the win!, ID: NW-DR5O3PD63 Cults and Culture, ID: NW-DCLSFYSQ2
0
danielspicardMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 20Arc User
edited July 2013
Hope when they put it back on they putted things in like:
- Coop foundry
- Mob editing
- more details
- Map layout editing
- bigger maps (haha xd)
and more
But lets keep dreaming just like Cryptic is doing.
I'm getting "character creation failed". I haven't been able to get in at all yet. It just sends me back to the log-in screen. Please tell me this isn't just me.
At the end of the day, people are inherently impatient. They don't like waiting.
Waiting for a bugfix with no word or report on progress is like waiting in traffic in a 5 mile-long tailback where only the first couple of hundred feet of cars can see the accident that caused the hold up and they're the only people who know what's going on, see the severity of the accident and can see the emergency services people going about their business.
The people at the back of the ever-growing queue can't do anything, can't see anything. They can't turn around, they have no clue what's going on. That's us, right now. And how you deal with this depends on the sort of person you are, I suppose. Are you the sort of person who's going to lean on his horn futilely and rant and rave about things over which you have no control, or are you the sort of person who'll take a step back and say "Well, throwing a tantrum won't affect anything and The Foundry isn't the only entertainment pastime I have in my life. I'll go find something else to do while I wait."
They're fixing it. If you think Cryptic's foundry devs are sitting around in California drinking mai tais laughing at the arm waving and name-calling in this thread then I don't know what to say to you. Believe what you want. I believe they're trying to fix it.
Why do I believe that?
Because if they don't fix it, I'll simply go play something else and you can bet Cryptic knows that I'm not the only player for whom the Foundry is the main draw of this game.
While the first time may have been like being stuck in traffic, by this stage it's more like... having to cross a Bridge on the way to work. One that collapses every few days, and each time is repaired with sticky tape, and then the people that repair it try to convince you that it's properly fixed and won't collapse in a few days, even as it teeters ominously in the wind behind them.
Basically;
Once is an accident
Twice is coincidence
Thrice is a pattern.
0
danielspicardMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 20Arc User
At the end of the day, people are inherently impatient. They don't like waiting.
Waiting for a bugfix with no word or report on progress is like waiting in traffic in a 5 mile-long tailback where only the first couple of hundred feet of cars can see the accident that caused the hold up and they're the only people who know what's going on, see the severity of the accident and can see the emergency services people going about their business.
The people at the back of the ever-growing queue can't do anything, can't see anything. They can't turn around, they have no clue what's going on. That's us, right now. And how you deal with this depends on the sort of person you are, I suppose. Are you the sort of person who's going to lean on his horn futilely and rant and rave about things over which you have no control, or are you the sort of person who'll take a step back and say "Well, throwing a tantrum won't affect anything and The Foundry isn't the only entertainment pastime I have in my life. I'll go find something else to do while I wait."
They're fixing it. If you think Cryptic's foundry devs are sitting around in California drinking mai tais laughing at the arm waving and name-calling in this thread then I don't know what to say to you. Believe what you want. I believe they're trying to fix it.
Why do I believe that?
Because if they don't fix it, I'll simply go play something else and you can bet Cryptic knows that I'm not the only player for whom the Foundry is the main draw of this game.
I had to laugh about the comparison with traffic.
You got news channels to report what is going on.
Cryptic does not I guess.
0
drnoesisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
TBH, it would just be nice to see a publisher that could publicly discuss these issues without worrying about image.
Even the company I worked for, I was constantly getting edited by management types who didnt want me, as community manager, telling players that we had x problem, with y thing, and it would take z time to fix. It was always "our isp messed up" or "there was a bug with this 3rd party thing we rely on" or "the routing issue is definitely with your connection, and absolutely nothing to do with a botched bandwidth shaping command on our dns." Anything but admitting responsibility and trusting our customers with the truth.
It'd be nice if a company could just say "yeah, that service breaks every time we do a maintenance reboot, we aren't sure why but we are looking into it. In the mean time if you want to use that service, please bear in mind it'll be broken for a few hours after every maintenance window. "
Tbh, the day I find a publisher that can be that honest with its client base, I'll be happy to sell my relatives into slavery so as to sink some money into their products. It'd be the ultimate goodwill gesture in my book, beyond any freebies, in game items or "we're sorry, have some time credited back to your accounts"
These days more and more people are able to deal with the technical details on a mature level, they'd even be able to dumb it down for people that couldn't get to grips with it. It's a trust issue with technical teams, departments, publishers and developers in almost all walks of life where they believe its better to hand their clients a pile of generic palm off rubbish (even when they know their customers know its total rubbish) than it is just to hold up their hands and say "yeah, we broke stuff, don't worry, we'll fix it."
But beyond all that of course.... you do have to at least accept that for most customers, some indication that you have acknowledged their issue (with regular enough updates that they know you are still thinking about it) is better than a complete communications blackout.
And no, this rant isn't directed at Cryptic specifically, its at the industry on the whole, of which Cryptic is a part. The above is just my opinion, and me putting it in writing that I would personally pay good money to use any service which kept me up to date and made me feel in the loop, and trusted enough that I could be told what was really going on.
0
xhritMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Because if they don't fix it, I'll simply go play something else and you can bet Cryptic knows that I'm not the only player for whom the Foundry is the main draw of this game.
In the meantime, CE3 Sandbox is working just fine.
Because if they don't fix it, I'll simply go play something else and you can bet Cryptic knows that I'm not the only player for whom the Foundry is the main draw of this game.
And I would agree with you 100% if this was a one-off situation.
But it isn't.
It happens one or two times every single week.
The way to show the consumer you care about them when you make a mistake is to not let it happen again.
It'd be nice if a company could just say "yeah, that service breaks every time we do a maintenance reboot, we aren't sure why but we are looking into it. In the mean time if you want to use that service, please bear in mind it'll be broken for a few hours after every maintenance window. "
I'm right there with you. They could also do a joking serious spin on it: "Yeah, the hamsters escaped again. We're still trying to figure out what lets them loose." In this day and age with computers and software, compatibility issues, the whole thing nothing is perfect and nothing can be perfect. Software and hardware break - it's inevitable - but not standing up to the plate and trusting the players with the truth is something different.
It's a catch 22 for them - a "damned if we do or don't." They may feel that if we say something our image will be tarnished and people will leave but on the other hand if we don't players will get frustrated and leave as well.
Every game has issues - it's historical. WoW had issues when it first started. Do I even need to mention AoC or even ToR? It's also a business. They need to keep a flow of revenue to support the product. So, again, it's a double-bladed sword for them - maybe.
Comments
Going to kill the UGC? I think it already is.
Brethren of the Five, Campaign. - Story focused
The Dwarven Tale - Hack 'N Slash
100% agreed.
For example, we get more communication from volunteer community moderators than a person PAID to do that job. It is pathetic.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
Half day? Evening? It's been down since BEFORE 9am!
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
Ah, thanks for mentioning that. I was at work so didn't know when it went down. Make that all day then. I wonder if it will reach another multi-day fiasco like that 4-day outage right before launch?
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
Please review my "Finger of God" campaign: NWS-DPJMGYJGV
Quest #1: NW-DS24FX4BC - Cragsford
Quest #2: NW-DTPUNXUAB - Mine's Mine
Quest #3: NW-DIPZQ7CMS - Are We There Yeti?
Quest #4: NW-DSCFDT5WS - Finger of God
NW-DIG3FBD2Q - Part 1 - Initial Attack - (Eligible for daily) Click here to see Video review by @Visigoth18
NW-DNG6BTL9C - Part 2 - Retaliation - (Now daily eligible - thanks for the support everyone)
Act 1: A Family Affair - NW-DH7J6B8V2
Act 2.1 and Act 2.2 Coming soon!
At least I hope that is when it will be back up.
Feast of the Moon | Rising of the Dark | Shadow of the World | Everdark
Oh well... perhaps I could lv my GWF..
But... but people randomly leave groups when you get into an epic dungeon, and millions of adds on bosses gets more annoying rather than interesting.
If this company were even only half as good at Customer Service / Relations as Turbine it would be a ten-fold improvement on the current situation.
And I say that as someone who walked out of almost 5 years of continuous LOTRO play to come to Neverwinter.
All The Best
Looking For Reviews For Your Foundry Quest?
Drop By Scribe's Enclave & Meet Up With Volunteer Reviewers.
NW-DNZTNE2SA -A Hell Under the City
NW-DOG5LREQJ-Necro Master's Last Breath
Where's the evidence of any of this.
1) Foundry goes down more often that cheap street-worker.
If they cared about fixing things there would be less down-time not more.
2) The have "community relations" people who never post anything meaningful on the official community forum.
So they don't care about that either.
3) They want to keep players happy?
Then I suggest they totally reverse the current "model" on which they are trying to do that, because the current model is 100% counter-productive.
4) The Foundry is an awesome concept, just brilliant. If there was one thing at all that could convert me from a totally F2P player to someone who pays for services (extra Foundry/Campaign slots etc) it would be the Foundry. But right now I'd be better off giving whatever money I might spend on this game to the first stranger I see in the street - I'd genuinely get a better return on that investment than wasting on this game. If they want us to give them our money they need to demonstrate to us that doing so will make things better - so far the service is only getting worse.
5) It could be a "patched file" that the Foundry relies on?
So, you are saying they don't even do the very basic minimum level of QA testing? Because the only way that a file that is vital to the Foundry can be so badly affected in a patch is that in testing no one bothered to try to login to the Foundry. That's not just poor QA policy, its incompetent QA policy. Which ties in to 4) above, are you seriously going to give a service-provider money when they have repeatedly demonstrated such incompetence? Really?
All The Best
Looking For Reviews For Your Foundry Quest?
Drop By Scribe's Enclave & Meet Up With Volunteer Reviewers.
In every other MMO I've played, when something major goes down they tell you what's wrong, or that they're not sure what the problem is, and when they expect to resolve the issue (And they post if they estimate changes).
It might just be me, but I just get the impression they don't really care... 5 pages before they confirmed it was down on their end, and even then there was basically zero information given. And on top of that, this is a common problem with the Foundry, it seems that it's going down every other day...
I logged off last night in the vain hope that this morning would show a working foundry.. Instead I find 'Foundry Editing not allowed' and NO WORD from anyone a PW. Whatever anyone says to counter this argument PW are in the wrong here!
This thread has been bouncing up and down near the top slot now for many hours, it is the ONLY place on the forums where everyone who is involved with the foundry comes! To offer no word of anything is unthinkable!
Whats worse, is the general 'feeling' here on the foundry forums, a feeling expressed by a large percentage of these posts is that PW should be saying something!!
It boggles my mind that they are reading these words to completely ignore them! Have a heart people of PW, say something! Surely your further forward with an idea of whats wrong! So give us SOME kind of clue.
Thanks for your consideration of the people who love your game and editor... Anything would be nice.
Art (aka Casek)
Part 1: A Mysterious Portal: - NW-DIKGSOTWT
Part 2: Into the forest: Out now - NW DAVOJC8N7
Part 3: Through the portal: 50% Finished!
Part 4: Lvl 113
Does YOUR FOUNDRY need more plays? Try this thread: Click here
(It has been somewhat of a dream ever since Neverwinter Nights and the Aurora Toolset.)
So far I've seen many lovely ideas, a lot of creative workarounds and mechanics not seen anywhere else than a few unique quests and I've met (well, chatted to) many friendly people eager to share ideas and feedback.
For me, this is the strength of Neverwinter and the Foundry.
Sure, things aren't great all the time with bugs and all, but then again I don't *have* to be online all the time either.
Furthermore, as it's free, (that is, it's impossible to pay for anything Foundry-ish at the moment) I see it more as a bonus than something I'm entitled to.
So to Cryptic: I hope you guys will tell us what you have in mind for the Foundry, I'm looking forward to it, I'm sure!
And to all authors: Thanks for all your hard work so far, I can honestly say that I haven't tried many quests that I haven't been able to love in one way or another so far!
Chef's Challenge, ID: NW-DGTKIBVF3
The Dreamfall Campaign, ID: NWS-DEB7Z9IJC (3 Quests)
Ogre: For the win!, ID: NW-DR5O3PD63
Cults and Culture, ID: NW-DCLSFYSQ2
- Coop foundry
- Mob editing
- more details
- Map layout editing
- bigger maps (haha xd)
and more
But lets keep dreaming just like Cryptic is doing.
Waiting for a bugfix with no word or report on progress is like waiting in traffic in a 5 mile-long tailback where only the first couple of hundred feet of cars can see the accident that caused the hold up and they're the only people who know what's going on, see the severity of the accident and can see the emergency services people going about their business.
The people at the back of the ever-growing queue can't do anything, can't see anything. They can't turn around, they have no clue what's going on. That's us, right now. And how you deal with this depends on the sort of person you are, I suppose. Are you the sort of person who's going to lean on his horn futilely and rant and rave about things over which you have no control, or are you the sort of person who'll take a step back and say "Well, throwing a tantrum won't affect anything and The Foundry isn't the only entertainment pastime I have in my life. I'll go find something else to do while I wait."
They're fixing it. If you think Cryptic's foundry devs are sitting around in California drinking mai tais laughing at the arm waving and name-calling in this thread then I don't know what to say to you. Believe what you want. I believe they're trying to fix it.
Why do I believe that?
Because if they don't fix it, I'll simply go play something else and you can bet Cryptic knows that I'm not the only player for whom the Foundry is the main draw of this game.
Basically;
Once is an accident
Twice is coincidence
Thrice is a pattern.
I had to laugh about the comparison with traffic.
You got news channels to report what is going on.
Cryptic does not I guess.
Even the company I worked for, I was constantly getting edited by management types who didnt want me, as community manager, telling players that we had x problem, with y thing, and it would take z time to fix. It was always "our isp messed up" or "there was a bug with this 3rd party thing we rely on" or "the routing issue is definitely with your connection, and absolutely nothing to do with a botched bandwidth shaping command on our dns." Anything but admitting responsibility and trusting our customers with the truth.
It'd be nice if a company could just say "yeah, that service breaks every time we do a maintenance reboot, we aren't sure why but we are looking into it. In the mean time if you want to use that service, please bear in mind it'll be broken for a few hours after every maintenance window. "
Tbh, the day I find a publisher that can be that honest with its client base, I'll be happy to sell my relatives into slavery so as to sink some money into their products. It'd be the ultimate goodwill gesture in my book, beyond any freebies, in game items or "we're sorry, have some time credited back to your accounts"
These days more and more people are able to deal with the technical details on a mature level, they'd even be able to dumb it down for people that couldn't get to grips with it. It's a trust issue with technical teams, departments, publishers and developers in almost all walks of life where they believe its better to hand their clients a pile of generic palm off rubbish (even when they know their customers know its total rubbish) than it is just to hold up their hands and say "yeah, we broke stuff, don't worry, we'll fix it."
But beyond all that of course.... you do have to at least accept that for most customers, some indication that you have acknowledged their issue (with regular enough updates that they know you are still thinking about it) is better than a complete communications blackout.
And no, this rant isn't directed at Cryptic specifically, its at the industry on the whole, of which Cryptic is a part. The above is just my opinion, and me putting it in writing that I would personally pay good money to use any service which kept me up to date and made me feel in the loop, and trusted enough that I could be told what was really going on.
In the meantime, CE3 Sandbox is working just fine.
Feast of the Moon | Rising of the Dark | Shadow of the World | Everdark
And I would agree with you 100% if this was a one-off situation.
But it isn't.
It happens one or two times every single week.
The way to show the consumer you care about them when you make a mistake is to not let it happen again.
All The Best
Looking For Reviews For Your Foundry Quest?
Drop By Scribe's Enclave & Meet Up With Volunteer Reviewers.
I'm right there with you. They could also do a joking serious spin on it: "Yeah, the hamsters escaped again. We're still trying to figure out what lets them loose." In this day and age with computers and software, compatibility issues, the whole thing nothing is perfect and nothing can be perfect. Software and hardware break - it's inevitable - but not standing up to the plate and trusting the players with the truth is something different.
It's a catch 22 for them - a "damned if we do or don't." They may feel that if we say something our image will be tarnished and people will leave but on the other hand if we don't players will get frustrated and leave as well.
Every game has issues - it's historical. WoW had issues when it first started. Do I even need to mention AoC or even ToR? It's also a business. They need to keep a flow of revenue to support the product. So, again, it's a double-bladed sword for them - maybe.