Non-Creative Quests vs Popularity

virtousviper · June 2013

I am having a lot of issues with understanding this thematic situation. The theme being: Popular quests being very unproductive, nonsensical and utterly silly. You have this 'amazing' quest that has 20,000 plays and reviews that maintain a 4.0+ review, yet they are silly, unproductive and incomplete.

I am having issues with completing these silly quests. I am not going to lead to examples of these specifics of which I speak, but I am disgruntled with the outcome.

EXAMPLE:
You have this amazingly well-developed, thought out quest - which, yes,... takes you 25 minutes to complete. But you can tell that it has taken this author perhaps 100+ hours to develop...only for YOU to enjoy. They didn't develop this quest for themselves - it's obvious it was developed for others to enjoy.

THEN:
You have this silly non-illuminating quest, which you know only took the author *with experience based on previous developments* perhaps 4 hours to create - and it is full-blown "perfect," "fun," "QUICK," "amazing," etc... and the ONLY reason I can strive to understand this is because it is within the game's society' 'timing' to complete this quest within a specific amount of time in order to 'ONLY FINISH THEIR DAILY FOUNDRY QUEST.'

ANOTHER EXAMPLE: Oh, sure you made 4 silly rooms with the exact same components in them with a mild-visually effect between dialogues, but this is VERY BLAND compared to what authors have developed. I am sorry, but MANY different authors out there have put far too much time into their work for this nonsense to be considered popular ONLY because it's 'within a meaningful' time to complete as a farm for a daily foundry.

And I am not even an author of foundries, at all. I have taken my time to read, listen and understand all of these quests.

Based on what I learned/saw - MOST of the authors with popularity have developed something original -and fun,- but then became lazy and developed a '2nd quest, or more' that are so boring that I want to cry. And they did this KNOWING that most people have subscribed to them - ALREADY - because their initial quest was perfect for 'daily foundry.' These authors have taken over positions that other authors have/had deserved to take because of the work they put in.

Something needs to be completely re-done with the foundry system. THE ONLY reason players are running these foundries (except the very few minority, and I mean VERY VERY FEW), is because they have to and need to do it in order to complete their daily foundry quests. There is really no tantalizing reason to take part in these quests, other then for that sole objective.

When it comes to D&D, you really need to think, does THAT seem reasonable to you?

Did you get together with a group of friends at a nightly D&D event, knowing that you wanted to be in and out of there within 15 minutes? I KNOW the answer is simply, NO! You WANTED to be there the entire night and spend the evening 'delving' within dungeons.

If this is how foundries are going to be treated within a 'D&D COMMUNITY' as opposed to tabletop or whatnot, and only because it's an MMO, then perhaps I am in the wrong place to be playing a D&D game.
Then again, who is behind me on these thoughts?

There HAS to be more of a reason for us players to run foundries other than the specifics given based on TIME constraints. This will give authors MORE REASON to develop highly-advanced and thematic dungeons that we, the questers will long to enjoy.

Please, in all due respect, do NOT take this posting to heart. It was simply an example for people to understand that some players *including myself,* are frustrated to see popularity of certain quests because of previous work, when in fact it was NOT deserved. I have played SO many quests out there that are far beyond deserving then what they are given because authors have taken over the 'popularity' schematics of the game.

If you feel the same way as I do...PLEASE feel free to post your FAVORITE foundry quest in this posting that are related to well-developed, highly-involved quests that YOU feel are more deserving than what the 'popular' quests are given. It doesn't matter if your favorite foundry quest is 5 minutes of 60 minutes...please feel free to post it and help the community acknowledge it as a well-deserved known development.

I continue to thank EVERYONE for the support given based on this. Please feel free to post comments, criticisms, or whatever you feel is worthy in this posting based only on the information that I am speculating against or with.

Remember, your ignorance may be bliss, but your attitude will not be ignored.

Much love, VirtuousViper ~, - well acknowledged and appreciated author since Ultima Online, CREATOR of the first and ever known 'leveling system' within an MMORPG starting with UO.

nyghoma · June 2013

I'll bite.

A simple and elegant solution to doing four, fifteen minute foundry quests at level 60 is to offer an option to do a one hour quest in exchange. Or just have Cryptic offer another foundry daily for long quests in conjunction with the current daily. I mean they already planned for us to spend an hour doing a daily. What's the difference if it is 1 quest or four if you can choose? Would it kill Cryptic if they had another daily? Nope. What's a few more ADs? I'm sure they can rework the math.

virtousviper · June 2013

nyghoma wrote: »

I'll bite.

A simple and elegant solution to doing four, fifteen minute foundry quests at level 60 is to offer an option to do a one hour quest in exchange. Or just have Cryptic offer another foundry daily for long quests in conjunction with the current daily. I mean they already planned for us to spend an hour doing a daily. What's the difference if it 1 quest or four if you can choose? Would it kill Cryptic if they had another daily? Nope. What's a few more ADs? I'm sure they can rework the math.

Thank you for understanding. They already have us doing their 45 min. dungeons and expect us to spend an extra 15 mins BEYOND that in order to complete a daily, so why not offer this alternative? I like your thoughts really, but maybe something a little more constructive is needed for a situation like this.

I wouldn't mind getting into the development team for CRYPTIC and helping them deploy a program that would be necessary for players to take part in in order to keep current foundry players involved, which in fact seems to be a main plot of their MMO. The foundry system disgusts me, yet it has so much potential and has changed many things I've seen with any typical MMO I've seen to-date.

visigoth18 · June 2013

lol...now that's a rant

yeah it sucks when you don't get appreciated the way you want...

"But what you gonna do ;P that's reality for ya"

virtousviper · June 2013

visigoth18 wrote: »

lol...now that's a rant

yeah it sucks when you don't get appreciated the way you want...

"But what you gonna do ;P that's reality for ya"

I don't think you understand... I have ran YOUR quest about 5 times now and have enjoyed it and even left you comments/suggestions, and I'd rather do that quest over and over compared to the silly "I need to complete this as fast as I can" quests.

Perhaps, you should be more supportive in the work you put into it.

mirimero · June 2013

Look, I agree with some of your points, but I got distracted by the amount of space you've devoted to a certain author. So yeah, he's popular, but you've pointed it out yourself: he's sitting at the top because of the way the system is. I'm all for fixing the system but not for making examples out of authors. Also, a couple days ago that same author actually made a thread asking other foundry authors to post unpopular quests that they love. It's buried now, but I know this because I responded to it, and I've played the quest he recommended. Personally, I feel that it's distracting when OPs point out particular authors. You can actually make your point without doing so.

That said, I agree there should be rewards for playing longer and less popular quests. A few threads back, someone suggested AD rewards for playing a quest you've never played before. I'd love to see that kind of thing implemented (which would be good for me too, since I almost never play the same quest twice).

By the way, my favorite is Return From the Void NW-DRFKYD2CN by@runis12. It only has about 70 plays and I think it deserves more! Incredible environments and NPCs.

I'd also like to see which little known quests you liked.

virtousviper · June 2013

mirimero wrote: »

Look, I agree with some of your points, but I got distracted by the amount of space you've devoted to a certain author. So yeah, he's popular, but you've pointed it out yourself: he's sitting at the top because of the way the system is. I'm all for fixing the system but not for making examples out of authors. Also, a couple days ago that same author actually made a thread asking other foundry authors to post unpopular quests that they love. It's buried now, but I know this because I responded to it, and I've played the quest he recommended. Personally, I feel that it's distracting when OPs point out particular authors. You can actually make your point without doing so.

That said, I agree there should be rewards for playing longer and less popular quests. A few threads back, someone suggested AD rewards for playing a quest you've never played before. I'd love to see that kind of thing implemented (which would be good for me too, since I almost never play the same quest twice).

By the way, my favorite is Return From the Void NW-DRFKYD2CN by@runis12. It only has about 70 plays and I think it deserves more! Incredible environments and NPCs.

I'd also like to see which little known quests you liked.

Thanks for pointing that out - post edited because I do not like to feel as if I am attacking any specific author in particular. But I appreciate you bringing this to my attention. All authors based on this post have been removed. Thank you.

mirimero · June 2013

virtousviper wrote: »

Thanks for pointing that out - post edited because I do not like to feel as if I am attacking any specific author in particular. But I appreciate you bringing this to my attention. All authors based on this post have been removed. Thank you.

Hey, awesome. A lot of people might have stuck to their guns, but you did the big thing. Glad you did that.

Anyway, this thread really is pretty interesting. I have a lot on my queue, but I could always use recommendations, and it would be interesting to see what other ideas people have about improving the daily foundry rewards.

almostcool · June 2013

This is just how it is and I don't think anything will change it. Still, I don't think you should undermine a persons work just because they might have not put as many details in as another author. Who knows, maybe they spent most of their time coming up with a great story. Everyone here who has made a longer quest (30+ min) is probably starting to realize by now how the system works and creating more daily based quests. Even I did it and made a quest roughly 20 minutes that's repayable with at least 5 different options. However, even though it's shorter I still put a ton of hours into making it.

meedacthunist · June 2013

Sooner or later we will have current STO system, where Foundry rewards are more tuned to quest length. Current NW system is in place probably only because it's still older version.

virtousviper · June 2013

almostcool wrote: »

This is just how it is and I don't think anything will change it. Still, I don't think you should undermine a persons work just because they might have not put as many details in as another author. Who knows, maybe they spent most of their time coming up with a great story. Everyone here who has made a longer quest (30+ min) is probably starting to realize by now how the system works and creating more daily based quests. Even I did it and made a quest roughly 20 minutes that's repayable with at least 5 different options. However, even though it's shorter I still put a ton of hours into making it.

And for that very reason, I'll be taking the time to review your quest seeing as I haven't done nor heard of it.
Thanks for pointing it out,

VV

virtousviper · June 2013

meedacthunist wrote: »

Sooner or later we will have current STO system, where Foundry rewards are more tuned to quest length. Current NW system is in place probably only because it's still older version.

And for this reason, I am hoping my comments/remarks are made noticeable and understood by the community, not so much as to attack anyone, but as to give an opinion on how myself and others feels about the current system and how unfair it is. Apparantly though, through the grapevine, a lot of these 'popular' and featured/spotlight quests are actually works of EMPLOYEES or FRIENDS of employees of this company. So, I hope no one feels undermined because their quest isn't amazing when in fact, it probably is.

VV

mirimero · June 2013

meedacthunist wrote: »

Sooner or later we will have current STO system, where Foundry rewards are more tuned to quest length. Current NW system is in place probably only because it's still older version.

Sounds like an interesting system. How do they prevent abuse by players who go AFK to make a quest longer, though?

meedacthunist · June 2013

mirimero wrote: »

Sounds like an interesting system. How do they prevent abuse by players who go AFK to make a quest longer, though?

I have no idea but they did it. Maybe it counts if there are any actual interactions or kills within this timeframe.

The Foundry daily missions have been replaced.
The existing daily missions have been removed.
Now, all qualifying Foundry missions will automatically reward a scaling amount of Dilithium (from 480-1140) and skill points/expertise.
Dilithium will be rewarded based on the average playtime of the mission.

All spotlight missions will reward the same as a qualifying mission, with two exceptions:
Once every 24 hours, the first spotlight mission completed in that time frame will get a bonus 1440 Dilithium.
Once every 24 hours, the first spotlight mission completed in that time frame will get a scaling amount of Energy Credits, based on the player's level.

virtousviper · June 2013

mirimero wrote: »

Sounds like an interesting system. How do they prevent abuse by players who go AFK to make a quest longer, though?

AFK for more than 3 mins during a foundry quest, you are simply kicked out of it and removed. There's no reason to be AFK longer than 5 mins *give or take, of course.* If you had an emergency to attend, you can simply go back into the foundry, which won't take up any of the time lengths which I think are completely POINTLESS and SILLY in the first place.

You should be rewarded for what you've done within a foundry quest, not for completing it in xx amount of time and because it was within a specific time you've been rewarded extra.

There are so many ways around things, that it's almost unthinkable. And when it comes to D&D, that SHOULD be the norm.

THE CURRENT SYSTEM IS PENALIZING PLAYERS FOR DOING FOUNDRY QUESTS THAT TAKE LONGER THAN THEIR SPECIFIED TIME. BECAUSE NO MATTER HOW MUCH TIME YOU PUT INTO A *DAILY ELIGIBLE FOUNDRY,* YOU ARE STILL GIVEN THE SAME REWARDS. They don't care if you do that 45 minute foundry, the point is, you need to do 3 more to get your 4k astral diamonds. The system is completely sick and disgusting and will do nothing but disgruntle people wanting to get more involved in this system.

VV~

apocrs1980 · June 2013

virtousviper wrote: »

And for this reason, I am hoping my comments/remarks are made noticeable and understood by the community, not so much as to attack anyone, but as to give an opinion on how myself and others feels about the current system and how unfair it is. Apparantly though, through the grapevine, a lot of these 'popular' and featured/spotlight quests are actually works of EMPLOYEES or FRIENDS of employees of this company. So, I hope no one feels undermined because their quest isn't amazing when in fact, it probably is.

VV

Just to put this out there, despite rumors, I am neither a close friend of anyone who works at cryptic nor an employee, however I would really like to be!
And that is one of the main driving forces behind me making my quests.
Hear my plea...I need a job Cryptic >.<

drakesigar · June 2013

I wouldn't go so far as to say some leading authors have reserved the top spots like they’re a couple of car parking spaces, relying on that one good quest they did to carry their virtual careers (The M Night Shyamalan of Neverwinter?). There’s little evidence of that, and many of the followup quests has been stellar.

Can’t argue with the foundry’s interface being a complete shambles though. Right now those who have the top spots may stay there forever with the current system in place, it’s just not suited for bringing in anything new.

chinspinner · June 2013

drakesigar wrote: »

I wouldn't go so far as to say some leading authors have reserved the top spots like they’re a couple of car parking spaces, relying on that one good quest they did to carry their virtual careers (The M Night Shyamalan of Neverwinter?). There’s little evidence of that, and many of the followup quests has been stellar.

Can’t argue with the foundry’s interface being a complete shambles though. Right now those who have the top spots may stay there forever with the current system in place, it’s just not suited for bringing in anything new.

Talking of which I was very amused to see his new Will Smith (and son) film got 11% on Rotten Tomato's with the quote 'nepotism does not make a movie star'. Kind of apt given the threads subject.

eskarine · June 2013

This thread is somewhat worrying to me. I am working on a quest that will be puzzle and exploration based. Not a lot of encounters, so if you know what to do and where to go you can probably breeze through it. But I'm guessing each of the two parts of the campaign will be over 30-40 minutes. I have spent more than 50+ hours on it now and it's no where near finished. It's all custom made/detailed maps, 90% of them at the 1500 objects limit.

As I progress through the quest, fighting with angles, XYZ axis, slowly-working foundry... I am slowly starting to wonder if it's even worth it. I would like to say I make the quest for myself, but let's face it people, we DO make them for audience. For better or for worse.

chinspinner · June 2013

eskarine wrote: »

This thread is somewhat worrying to me. I am working on a quest that will be puzzle and exploration based. Not a lot of encounters, so if you know what to do and where to go you can probably breeze through it. But I'm guessing each of the two parts of the campaign will be over 30-40 minutes. I have spent more than 50+ hours on it now and it's no where near finished. It's all custom made/detailed maps, 90% of them at the 1500 objects limit.

As I progress through the quest, fighting with angles, XYZ axis, slowly-working foundry... I am slowly starting to wonder if it's even worth it. I would like to say I make the quest for myself, but let's face it people, we DO make them for audience. For better or for worse.

I'm taking a break from foundry because a) I've burnt out on it for now, but b) I want to see a few more patches before I spend much more time on it. My initial quests were simple, but as the complexity increases, altering them to reflect the new content they are adding is just going to be come more of a pain in the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.

givearandomname · June 2013

there is no solution to this issue that everyone will agree on gamers are lazy these days.

I think there are very few gamers left that could have survived the old eq days with no vent and none of these intagratfication.

but face it the only thing that matters today is getting there quick so a quest thats 15 min will always be played over a quest thats 25 min. just to save time.

but on a side not folks who actualy enjoy running the quests will still run the longer quest just for the story and challenge. its not a popularity contest so your quest or mine will never be the top quest but when somebody does play it if they enjoyed it thats all that counts.

katah1969 · June 2013

I understand this point of view and I think the OP brings up a pretty valid point, but unfortunately it all stops there. Free to play games brings out a kid element and most of the quests you are talking about, not all, but most are done by kids. I've spent a ton of time on my quest and I think it is pretty darn good, but my 12 year old boy would rather run a quest with encounters reskinned as chickens that is twice as long as my quest for his dailies. I've asked him about it and all he can say, while laughing, is "killing chickens is cool"

Note to all you Foundry authors out there: Fear not! My kid is not, I'll repeat NOT allowed to post reviews without me first reading and approving his stars and comments. Cannot tell you how many times he had a 1 or 2 star review because he DIDN'T read the quest and got lost.

It is a shame, but as long as Neverwinter can be downloaded and played without a credit card this is how it is.

anrix2 · June 2013

There is still hope to make the best page, look at Bonderleaf's Thorough Aggregator, it went from published to best in a couple of days and is well over 15 minutes. It is a detailed map and a well thought out story by a first time publisher who wasn't riding the popularity of an older quest.

The issue is the catalog, not the daily quest. The catalog is completely un-navigable. There is no way to category a quest based on type, genre, or party size. Searching is also terrible and there is no criteria for sorting, nor is there any pagination, and the catalog should be promoting the new tab as the first open tab, then featured, then best. Best should be used as an archive for quests that achieved a certain rating with a certain amount of playthroughs. Plus the new tab is already presort by adjusted rating, so the "best" quests are already going to be at the top, it just they will be rolled off into archive once their popularity is strong enough to carry them without the additional marketing.

All that being said, an author really needs to hustle their review trading to get noticed. The only issue with that is, that means more time playing other people's foundry's than working on the foundry you've already published and want to perfect, or it prevents the author from working on the next one they plan to publish.

It sucks for those really aspiring to get noticed, but that is the reality of it for now, and if a person isn't having fun making foundry quests, well then don't make them, because in the end if you are doing it for anyone other than yourself, then you run a high risk of being disappointed.

thestoryteller01 · June 2013

To add my 2 copper I might just point out that one cannot blame the authors for the taste of the players.

It's the same with songs, movies, books, games or whatever. If the crowd loves trash, then there's nothing one can do about it - xcept for giving them what they ask for

zovya · June 2013

katah1969 wrote: »

I understand this point of view and I think the OP brings up a pretty valid point, but unfortunately it all stops there. Free to play games brings out a kid element and most of the quests you are talking about, not all, but most are done by kids. I've spent a ton of time on my quest and I think it is pretty darn good, but my 12 year old boy would rather run a quest with encounters reskinned as chickens that is twice as long as my quest for his dailies. I've asked him about it and all he can say, while laughing, is "killing chickens is cool"

Note to all you Foundry authors out there: Fear not! My kid is not, I'll repeat NOT allowed to post reviews without me first reading and approving his stars and comments. Cannot tell you how many times he had a 1 or 2 star review because he DIDN'T read the quest and got lost.

It is a shame, but as long as Neverwinter can be downloaded and played without a credit card this is how it is.

This explains a lot to me. Thanks.

zahinder · June 2013

What Anrix said.

I have no problem with folks otherwise uninterested in Foundry running 4 quick dailies. I have a problem with cool and interesting quests being next to impossible to FIND, which discourages those who ARE interested in more creative content -- it's just way easier to find four missions that run fast and run them daily.

As for STO, I think the reward is actually based on AVERAGE length. So it tends to be a self-correcting issue -- even if you AFK for an hour, most people are going to blitz through faster.

Of course, it does encourage people to run through as fast as possible, but whatever... it's still better.

meedacthunist · June 2013

katah1969 wrote: »

Free to play games brings out a kid element and most of the quests you are talking about, not all, but most are done by kids. I've spent a ton of time on my quest and I think it is pretty darn good, but my 12 year old boy would rather run a quest with encounters reskinned as chickens that is twice as long as my quest for his dailies. I've asked him about it and all he can say, while laughing, is "killing chickens is cool"

This is why Cryptic should get rid of star ratings and just give us better search engine. As soon as this game came out of closed beta review system became screwed. It not even serves promoting one kind of quests, but also acts as downvoting of other quests (because of broken search).
Screwed rating system+ screwed search engine+screwed daily rewards = pretty much excercise in futility.

yospeck · June 2013

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

If you get off to a good start early on (lets be fair most of us are talking about Bill's Tavern) and it has a certain appeal, then the masses keep seeing it, keep playing it, and keep voting for it. Now I'm not a massive fan of BT (much prefered Agent 34 as far as that type of quest goes), but it ain't broke and it's easy to burn through, which is why so many people play it time and time again. I'm not bashing dzogen, he has some pretty quirky ideas in his quests, but the encounters, world design and dialogue are extremely basic.

However, there is a massive difference between creating a real gem of a quest and creating a popular quest. Creating a popular quest you really don't need to spend time placing all 1500 assets on every map, dialogue just needs to be functional enough to get you from A to B (as most people "1" through it on a daily). So for that Bills Tavern can easily be called an extremely successful quest, but it all depends on how you personally measure success.

On the other hand you take something like Gloomlight (which took me 3 hours to complete last night as a solo 23 Cleric) and it's an epic RPG-esq quest with tons of dialogue, very challenging encounters and maxed assets. You know Nyghoma has spent weeks creating it just from how epic it is..... but it's hella long and that just ain't for everybody. There's a lot of reading, and exploring, and optional side quests... but not everyone is interested in that.

Ultimately make the type of quest that YOU want to make and don't be too worried about it hitting the top of an already very skewed list. Make something you can be proud of.

we DO make them for audience. For better or for worse.

In part, but I don't make mine with the intention of making it loved by all. If most people don't play it, but a few people absolutely love it, then my work is done.

kamaliicious · June 2013

meedacthunist wrote: »

This is why Cryptic should get rid of star ratings and just give us better search engine. As soon as this game came out of closed beta review system became screwed.

It's gone pretty much exactly as predicted during Foundry beta by a poster who had tracked CoH and STO foundry missions.

boneninja03 · June 2013

It's the sad truth. I've been complaining since day one about how the Foundry search is setup. You can't find anything in there, the rating system basically doesn't mean squat, so you never know if your ending up in a boring generic pumped out prefab quest to be optimized for the daily, or getting something someone poured some real heart and soul into and is really trying to make good or better themselves to make even better quests.

I didn't know or consider any of it when I started building my little campaign. I had an idea for a real story, not just a hack and slash, or something to meet the requirements for the daily. I wanted to play with building, I wanted to make something challenging, I wanted to tell a story that I hoped other players would enjoy. I'm not awesome within the builder, but I'm learning and exploring new techniques. My first quest is 50+ minutes, I'm almost done with the second quest for the campaign and it's not likely to be any shorter. I already had to completely modify every encounter I had in the quest since apparently only three people (myself included) of the initial 7 or 8 who tried to play it could complete it, everything else became "it's too hard" and no one wanted to actually think about the encounters and how to approach them with a strategy. They want the cake walk.

I've spent a ton of time trying to "advertise" my quest by posting it on the forums in several locations, within several groups, and it's been so incredibly hard to get anyone to even give it a try. If it weren't for several kind hearts in my guild I'd likely still be sitting in the "review" stage. It's really a disheartening experience for new builders overall.

I just continue on and plan on completing my story campaign because even if I never break 3 digit reviews it's a good feeling for me to be constructive and build something, learn something new, and have something that at least I'm proud of. There's not really any other incentive to build anything for NWO otherwise, at least not at the moment.

sourcreamking · June 2013

Kids nowadays and their instant rewards...
I miss the old days with pen, paper and dice, where one single adventure could take several weekends to complete and we didn't WANT it to end... (Ok, I'm old) Now all kids want is speed, FX and action all the time, and if they have to read anything it's boring... Lets call it devolution. And it makes me sad.

Non-Creative Quests vs Popularity

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