No, no. I'm not comparing Singularity to AS, but to GWF and TR dailies.
Now tell me, what is the most reliable ? Siingularity ? Or GWF spinetowin ?
As of these balance changes, a Sentinel GWF is a permanent, walking singularity that's able to maintain higher mitigation alone than a DC can with AS and Foresight with 5/5 feats into foresight.
Normally I'd say that your healing will be just fine after the patch, but I'm not sure since I'm getting an impression you don't understand why Sunburst is absolutely amazing.
And seriously, the sheer fact that you have the nerve to compare AS to another class' daily power is enough to picture how OP AS is atm.
I know how Sunburst works it has been in my bar ever since lvl 6. It is an amazing AP,DP generation skill but it is a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> heal. If you claim its a valid heal, you are trolling. Truth is cleric has no other heals to do its job. AS was the only good heal we had and nothing will be close to replacing it. The stacking needed to go, there is no arguing about it. As has been told FFs is good but it has low uptime and will put more stress on already stressful class not to mention the team will need to recognize it and hug the correct mob without killing it, even with team speak that would be hard to achieve. Mono heals in an action RPG is a horrid idea and healing word has -40% less heal on us to top it off.
We have no other heals to replace it and i do not believe GFs or GWF will ever stack even nearly enough defence, considering diminishing return. AS gave room for those who live far away from servers and its not always about connection its the pure physical distance the ping needs to travel from player to server, taking in to account human reaction. I have no doubt static groups will find a way around it, its the casual players im worried about. And whether you like it or not, casual gamers are a sizable part of community.
So I guess GWF will manage to tank 10 adds on his own. Sure. And with no AS. Clearly.
Well at least, next time I see a party wipe, I will be able to blame the GWF and the GF, for bad aggro or three shot with 2k def.
I'll be able to no brain like they used to, Astral Seal, AS sometimes when troubles, and then all the rest on GF/GWF's shoulders.
Sounds good doesn't it.
I think I will even get rid of AS on my bar and will play with my other powers, cause well it seems that they are all viable and AS is not a MUST-HAVE.
So I guess GWF will manage to tank 10 adds on his own. Sure. And with no AS. Clearly.
Yes, he will. Sentinel GWF in full titan has 60% passive damage reduction, around 60% deflect chance, and then can alternate between daring shout and unstoppable for extra 50% mitigation on top of all that. Nothing about this is new, except now GWF can actually hold threat on adds.
I don't think it will be the only one viable, Instigator and Destroyer both look good after the changes, but even if Sentinel becomes the one spec to run on GWF, that's still more than what we have now.
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deneb236Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Go read it again...... Chill will afect targets but u will be unable to freeze or control them AKA then only run slower .. and i am not even sure about the slow part too
"Chill may now stack on control-immune NPCs, but does not snare or freeze them."
As I understand it, now you can stack Chill to benefit some feats/abilities that benefit from chill stacks, but the stacks themselves will do nothing.
Sorry, I missed the meme that AS was removed from the game, guess I've to delete my cleric now.
You deliberately ignored all other points i made and just pulled one quote out of post. I will repeat it once more for you. AS gave room to people who live far away from servers and nerfing it the way developers plan to will hit casual gamer community in this game hard and wether you like it or not its a sizable part. No other heals will ever come close to filling up the missing 5 seconds gap if they are not buffed dramatically, which they are not.
You deliberately ignored all other points i made and just pulled one quote out of post. I will repeat it once more for you. AS gave room to people who live far away from servers and nerfing it the way developers plan to will hit casual gamer community in this game hard and wether you like it or not its a sizable part. No other heals will ever come close to filling up the missing 5 seconds gap if they are not buffed dramatically, which they are not.
But you are absolutely right, if you continue running TR TR CW CW DC parties people will die, that is intended.
As I understand it, now you can stack Chill to benefit some feats/abilities that benefit from chill stacks, but the stacks themselves will do nothing.
Correct, the stacks will now apply to bosses, so the cilling presence passive and frost spells benefitting from chill stacks (like Conduit of Ice) will finally work on bosses.
But you are absolutely right, if you continue running TR TR CW CW DC parties people will die, that is intended.
To be honest i have my doubts if GF and GWF would be able to handle massive amount off adds, lest say above 10. Its due to diminishing return on stats. Meaning crowd control will play even bigger role but with nerf bat swung in CWs direction, it will be hard on them. Maybe CWs changes will not affect CC much since i never played that class.
What you are missing is that AS gave a chance for random groups to sucseed. It was not 100% "I will win" key but it gave a chance. Not all people can get in to static groups for one reason or the other. The penalty was harsh on those players already. I was forced so spend a lot of time farming gold since i PUGed a lot. Now this chance will be taken away and casual gamers will be forced to move on at some point, since it will lead to two things - outrageous amount of time spend searching for a group or a 100% failure if you do not strike gold with team.
I am aware content should not be easily done with random people and it never was easy for random groups. That said i am actually pro Cleanse nerf since it will push people to buy scrolls more and thus keep the game i like alive for longer. And it adds an extra layer to difficulty since revive debuff would actually matter.
To be honest i have my doubts if GF and GWF would be able to handle massive amount off adds, lest say above 10. Its due to diminishing return on stats.
I've solo healed and tanked T2 on my cleric with AS, that's with 35% DR from defense and AC, 11% from foresight and 24% from AS stacking up to 70%. If cleric can survive 10 adds with 70% DR, then my GWF who can maintain higher passive effective mitigation and have unstoppable and daring shout mitigation on top of that as well can survive it as well, yes, without Astral Shield. That was never a problem, the problem was threat, and this patch fixes that. You still need to heal the tanks, but if you can tank and heal yourself with -40% debuff, then you can heal a tank with your full heals even if you can't maintain AS 100% of the time.
What you are missing is that AS gave a chance for random groups to sucseed. It was not 100% "I will win" key but it gave a chance. Not all people can get in to static groups for one reason or the other. The penalty was harsh on those players already. I was forced so spend a lot of time farming gold since i PUGed a lot. Now this chance will be taken away and casual gamers will be forced to move on at some point, since it will lead to two things - outrageous amount of time spend searching for a group or a 100% failure if you do not strike gold with team.
I am aware content should not be easily done with random people and it never was easy for random groups. That said i am actually pro Cleanse nerf since it will push people to buy scrolls more and thus keep the game i like alive for longer. And it adds an extra layer to difficulty since revive debuff would actually matter.
What you are missing is that the only reason why AS is so crucial is because, again, tanks are either useless or nearly useless due to the threat mechanics. AS will still be a must have encounter, for those few seconds it's down you will have someone else using their cooldowns to stay alive and keep the adds off your squishy bum.
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raquel23Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited June 2013
I can live without SE as a rogue,it's op at PvP ok,but the nerf to Duelist furry is too much for PvE ,hope they change it for release.
I've solo healed and tanked T2 on my cleric with AS, that's with 35% DR from defense and AC, 11% from foresight and 24% from AS stacking up to 70%. If cleric can survive 10 adds with 70% DR, then my GWF who can maintain higher passive effective mitigation and have unstoppable and daring shout mitigation on top of that as well can survive it as well, yes, without Astral Shield. That was never a problem, the problem was threat, and this patch fixes that. You still need to heal the tanks, but if you can tank and heal yourself with -40% debuff, then you can heal a tank with your full heals even if you can't maintain AS 100% of the time.
If you have one GF in team they will need to deal with more then 10 adds if threat was really fixed and they do not have the luxury to dodge once the shield was broken, so a good CCer still makes of brakes the team. The agro just shifts to someone else, i will admit someone with better tools to handle it.
This game is semi action game meaning you cant avoid all damage and at points you will be forced to stay still and face tank it, hoping CW is not asleep and is aware of situation and if in that time AS is down you have less defence and no consistent healing. Im speaking from my own experience in T2s. GWFs will face same problem as GFs will. Even if you have each of the class in team and they split adds between them crowd control still makes or brakes it. I do not believe you tanked all adds on youre cleric in T2, you kited thats true but you will never be able to take on the whole damage they dish out. In reality the team will have to deal with more then 5 sec AS downtime, due to human reaction. It takes time to asset the situation and place the shield correctly. So around 6-7 sec in best case.
What you are missing is that the only reason why AS is so crucial is because, again, tanks are either useless or nearly useless due to the threat mechanics. AS will still be a must have encounter, for those few seconds it's down you will have someone else using their cooldowns to stay alive and keep the adds off your squishy bum.
I will say once again if you strike gold with team. What if GF or GWF are bad? And agro bounces all over field? Youre answer is do not run with randoms and my response not all can have static teams. We are back to square one and you ignoring what i wrote about giving a chance to random teams. I know well played groups will have ways around 5 seconds cool down. I repeat once more, its the casual players im worried about since i am one myself. I will say again, its a sizable part of community whether you like it or not. That said im washing my hands - you obviously do not share my concern about casual players.
If you have one GF in team they will need to deal with more then 10 adds if threat was really fixed and they do not have the luxury to dodge once the shield was broken, so a good CCer still makes of brakes the team. The agro just shifts to someone else, i will admit someone with better tools to handle it.
Somewhere from 4:30 you can see me standing in a mob and boss aoe with astral shield up, I prolly didn't have a lot of agro on these adds anyway, we had a GF with us, but my hp doesn't even move a pixel down, and I'm not wearing tanking gear there either.
ATM I'm 2/4 Titan and 2/4 Vigilant Warlord, my DR is 56%. Even ignoring deflection, unstoppable and daring shout all together, Astral Shield with Foresight which puts my cleric at 70% DR, will put my GWF at 91% DR. NINETY. ONE. PERCENT. Tanking 10+ adds in such conditions is not easy, it's trivial. Astral shield down? Pop unstoppable or daring shout and show goes on. The only problem of Sentinel GWF on live is threat, and from reports we get from test shard is that a GWF just glues the adds to himself now.
What if you go into a dungeon today on live and the cleric is bad? You can't seriously demand that the game is bastardised to a level where as long as you have a competent cleric the rest of the party can be drooling troglodytes and you still succeed in any dungeon (though maybe a bit slower).
I did not watch the whole video, part you pointed out are not 10 adds not even 7. My cleric with meager 2k def would have been able to handle it. Im talking about hard hitting boss adds and more the 10 in some dungeon encounters. Its where AS and good CC are crucial. I do believe fighters have tools to reduce damage and take on more then my cleric ever could but even they will fold if they size a whole room worth of boss adds or even majority and with no consistent healing on them.
What if you go into a dungeon today on live and the cleric is bad? You can't seriously demand that the game is bastardised to a level where as long as you have a competent cleric the rest of the party can be drooling troglodytes and you still succeed in any dungeon (though maybe a bit slower).
Are you even reading what i post or you just reply in order to reply something? I already wrote i do not believe high lvl content should be easy on random groups and its not. It is far from that, if it was i would have a succsess rate of 70% out of all pug runs i do. As it stands in some dungeons it less then 20%. Competent cleric can not carry anyone now. I am far from perfect cleric and i will let the group judge whether or not i was good in particular run but i can immediately feel if we have a competent wizard. Its like the world turns on it axis thats how much a good CC makes an impact. AS is far from magic you will auto win skill, if you face tank more then you can handle in it you will die. If you fail to kite in it efficiently and stand in red spots you will die. It gives room for mistakes to which random groups are prone more then well played ones.
If you have one GF in team they will need to deal with more then 10 adds if threat was really fixed and they do not have the luxury to dodge once the shield was broken, so a good CCer still makes of brakes the team. The agro just shifts to someone else, i will admit someone with better tools to handle it.
GF cant dodge, his shift ability is Shield Up, Blocked? yes, infront of him. side and rear? dunno, some bosses like Idris and Spider have attack like a blink-strike and others attack straight from up and below. also everyone need to remember, this game is not 100% action, still doing movement and action separately, for example you cant move while encounter. this means, still high possibility you get attacked, hell even boss attack mostly do by targeting all character in party
I will say once again if you strike gold with team. What if GF or GWF are bad? And agro bounces all over field? Youre answer is do not run with randoms and my response not all can have static teams. We are back to square one and you ignoring what i wrote about giving a chance to random teams. I know well played groups will have ways around 5 seconds cool down. I repeat once more, its the casual players im worried about since i am one myself. I will say again, its a sizable part of community whether you like it or not. That said im washing my hands - you obviously do not share my concern about casual players.
what I see the problem is not whether they good or bad, but how tough are their built? most of players I met build their fighter class along side the attacking type, not a defensive, and even GWF most people build it on single attack not AoE. can these player hold the aggro and boss altogether? not to mention all dungeons have different boss and adds difficulty
Just got off the test server and i gotta say im STILL disappointed with the GWF. Sure its an improvement, but numbers still arent quite there. Id like Sure Strike to do a bit more damage, it STILL wouldnt harm a TR's role in a party. Im not entirely sure about base numbers of things, but i hate looking at my rogue being geared in pvp gear dealing near 1.2k damage per attack with only 1.55k power, whereas my GWF whos geared with Ancient Castle Never weapon set, part T2 (Vigilant Warlord) and part T1 (Berserker Set) only scratches 750 damage with Sure Strike. My weapon carrying 805-984 damage combined with 4k power should definately hit harder than 750! I would personally like to see that number at at least 1k per hit (for someone geared like me), we STILL would b NOWHERE NEAR the single target DPS that TR has. But at least then we would better fit the description of 2ndary Striker.
Also for the GWF's that wants to go the off-tank way, u should add increased threat to Wicked Strike (or make some paragon feat apply it) so we can effectively get aggro from trash and keep that aggro as well, because as it stands now, the only 2 AoE's that gives aggro is Slam (Daily, and if u HAVE that feat) and Daring Shout (again, u need to have a feat) also Dearing Shout does no initial damage, but with the feat u get 5% of ur total power dealt as damage when using this skill which with a total power of 4k that translates into...200 damage............ Just give wicked strike added threat and b done with it already!
On the flipside, non-Sentinel path players can still do their AoE job using Weaponmaster's Strike without worrying about unwanted aggro.
Now to something different and just as critical. Pvp!
I think that the efficiency of armor pen should b toned down. On my GWF i went the Sentinel paragon line.. Doing PvP, a high end geared rogue will still kick ur butt. eventhough i have 40% damage reduction, 40% deflect chance, 34ac, 2.4k armor and the sentinel trees passive (Increases defensive stat by 20%, but doesnt show on char sheet) i STILL eat 800-1k damage per knife from TR's ranged at-will.. He has 12.. Thats 10k+ damage.. Almost half my hp.. That is just plain wrong and imba when im described as an offtank! Also high end WC's deals devestating numbers and personally i believe that Armor Pen stacking is the reason for this.
In short, my not so well geared TR with lots of armor pen wrecks everything, my fairly high end tanky lil beef ball (Halfling) gets wrecked too fast by everything.
In the end though. I DO enjoy my GWF for PvE, i love its skillset and farming with him is a blast. But i must say i absolutely HATE PvP with him. For PvP i play my TR.
The reasons i hate PvP with my GWF is our lack of ability to absorb damage. I would like to able to grab the attention of things, endure being shot at and stuff while other team members does the killing. But 1 cc, and im in big trouble. No shield and no dodge complicates things for us. We have no gapclosers, no sneak abilities, no abilities to effectively get into the fight. TR gets stealth and a flashy backstab. CW has their range. GF has their shield and tankyness. But what do we have? Sprint? yeah thats not gonna get us too far. Its not helping me do my job one bit. So i get 3 choices, i can either barge in, take a CC from a CW and get slaughtered in secs by everyone.
OR i can barge in. take a CC from a CW, activate unstoppable when im half dead and still b slaughtered in secs by everyone.
OR i can wait for someone else b the meatshield which probably wont favor the team at all as you cant deal damage as efficiently as either rogue or CW. (you dont have the rogues burst or the CW's range and need to struggle to get into ppls faces)
Now for someone whos suppose to b the sturdiest piece on the battlefield aside from a GF you really havent got much good to offer ur team. I think that would all change if Unstoppable was changed to b charging at all times, not only when u smack stuff. In that way ud have a utility to help you get into the fight as well as u could take a beating and b a proper distraction at the very least before dying/running away. At least thats a good few secs where ur team can do some work now that u have the attention of the majority of ppl. the GWF would now b useful.
Class still needs a LOT of tweaks all-around. We're still like the poo of 2 worlds, though with the changes on test shard we're a bit less the poo of 2 worlds.
I did not watch the whole video, part you pointed out are not 10 adds not even 7. My cleric with meager 2k def would have been able to handle it. Im talking about hard hitting boss adds and more the 10 in some dungeon encounters. Its where AS and good CC are crucial. I do believe fighters have tools to reduce damage and take on more then my cleric ever could but even they will fold if they size a whole room worth of boss adds or even majority and with no consistent healing on them.
It seems we have a communication problem. I'm not saying that a tank is going to replace a cleric, neither am I saying that CC is useless. Here is the situation today:
a) GF or GWF when specced for tanking can take enormous amounts of damage.
b) Because of broken healing agro and not enough threat on tanks (GF is slightly better on live since he has taunts, Sentinel GWF in full Titan currently on live can't hold agro at all) a doesn't matter.
The reason why you have doubts regarding viability of tanks in this game is because tanks in this game are not viable, it's simply irrelevant how much mitigation I have if I can't keep agro. That is precisely the reason why people slap 2 CW and/or 2 DC in a party instead. Current meta PvE has successfully got rid of tank as an archetype, and the only reason this has happened is broken agro mechanics. Things got to such a ridiculous state that some GF, although (hopefully) in a sarcastic tone, refer to the new threat boost across all GF abilities as a nerf since their full dps spec GFs will now pull agro from the cleric and die .
Now, AS gets nerfed and you ask how is cleric supposed to compensate for it? You don't. Your compensation for AS nerf is the resurrection of the tank archetype. From what I've read if you run a one-of-each party with one proper tank and using -40% threat passive you never have agro on a healing cleric. Tank has to be on toes for the 5 seconds AS is down, but both GF and GWF have tools to survive 5 seconds out of 15 easily, rest of the party should not have agro, or if **** hits the fan and they do - can kite a bit and use their dodge rolls, spam their CC and so on. If you do bring a GF, a GWF and a CW, you will have an absolute abundance of tools to deal with the adds. It may not be the perfect balance yet, but it's much healthier than what we have now.
Now, AS gets nerfed and you ask how is cleric supposed to compensate for it? You don't. Your compensation for AS nerf is the resurrection of the tank archetype.
Wow, you're either new, or are very stupid, that's the nicest way I can put it. Let me get this straight. You're saying the AS nerf's compensation is tanks becoming more OP? Good job bud, but what about CN, PvP, Gaunt. PvP/PvE? Ever think of that, or a 1v1? GF can probably just knock cleric out of shield, rush in and 1 hit them now. Cleric are ruined and better be re-fixed.
Let me get this straight. You're saying the AS nerf's compensation is tanks becoming more OP? Good job bud, but what about CN, PvP, Gaunt. PvP/PvE? Ever think of that, or a 1v1? GF can probably just knock cleric out of shield, rush in and 1 hit them now. Cleric are ruined and better be re-fixed.
So you intercept a discussion that's been going on for some pages where I discuss basically nothing but the effects of threat in PvE and label that as "tanks becoming more OP"? Yes, GF is OP in PvP, but not because of his survival, and adding a massive amount of threat to his abilities does not making him less or more OP.
what i find amusing are all the CWs saying they got nerfed. your job is CONTROL not dps. my friends that are CW like this fix for them because when they are on an alt and see CWs trying to out dps the GWF and TR and not do CC they just facepalm. ME im very happy with all the changes and am wondering about if there are going to be more paragon paths.
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flatgonzoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
what i find amusing are all the CWs saying they got nerfed. your job is CONTROL not dps. my friends that are CW like this fix for them because when they are on an alt and see CWs trying to out dps the GWF and TR and not do CC they just facepalm. ME im very happy with all the changes and am wondering about if there are going to be more paragon paths.
I started with a GWF, got it to 60 and somewhat decently geared. Then due to lack of dungeon parties I started a CW and it can do AoE just as well, if not better than the GWF. We just did Throne of Idris 4man with 3 CWs and a rogue without any problems or deaths. Every wizard focusing on AoE damage of course, no need for control. I like GWF and it's fun to play but there just isn't a role for it right now.
So you intercept a discussion that's been going on for some pages where I discuss basically nothing but the effects of threat in PvE and label that as "tanks becoming more OP"? Yes, GF is OP in PvP, but not because of his survival, and adding a massive amount of threat to his abilities does not making him less or more OP.
I have a 10.7k GS Cleric, and I did ask for a nerf to AS.
Grow a pair and stop acting like a 12 year old, lets not flame the thread because of your immaturity. I don't even take offense to such a weak minded, childish comeback like that.
Because you are in denial. I have a 13k GS DC and still don't see why they got nerfed. You're just a crappy player that gets your a-s handed to you by a cleric even though one execution or 2 CW or 1 GF is enough to hold back or 1 shot or kill a DC really fast.
It seems we have a communication problem. I'm not saying that a tank is going to replace a cleric, neither am I saying that CC is useless. Here is the situation today:
The reason why you have doubts regarding viability of tanks in this game is because tanks in this game are not viable, it's simply irrelevant how much mitigation I have if I can't keep agro. That is precisely the reason why people slap 2 CW and/or 2 DC in a party instead. Current meta PvE has successfully got rid of tank as an archetype, and the only reason this has happened is broken agro mechanics. Things got to such a ridiculous state that some GF, although (hopefully) in a sarcastic tone, refer to the new threat boost across all GF abilities as a nerf since their full dps spec GFs will now pull agro from the cleric and die .
Now, AS gets nerfed and you ask how is cleric supposed to compensate for it? You don't. Your compensation for AS nerf is the resurrection of the tank archetype. ...
You may be right and we might misunderstand what the other is trying to say. I know fighters are forced to go DPS spec since its really hard for them to keep agro of us. And i may have my doubts about them since i never saw a decent deff spec GF much less GWF. But not every GF/GWF in pug is a god send tank and i would need that extra room for teams mistakes. Instead of feeling if AS goes down and things go south, like im a horrid healer who fails to care for my group. I would have valid reasons too, if the update goes life. Since i know i wont be able to make a split second decision in 5 seconds where to place my FF and who will need it most. I dont know, maybe you are one of those sixth sense type of people, i am not. BoH would do too, but i rather not slot nightmare of a heal. On that i think we can conclude our replies. Obviously nether will share others option.
I see someone mentioned PvP. As i see it healers are not executers. I play mine much like i do in PvE. Go in the middle draw attention while my other team mates go off capping enemy node. I know i wont survive or kill anyway, i just draw away attention from our CWs or forcing them to stay long enough in middle. We are put at disadvantage with future update since heals wont count but they know it.
I know you guys have a tight schedule right now, but enchantments are an existing content that needs fixing (and balance as well). I wish my feedback can help you in that regard.
Grow a pair and stop acting like a 12 year old, lets not flame the thread because of your immaturity. I don't even take offense to such a weak minded, childish comeback like that.
Because you are in denial. I have a 13k GS DC and still don't see why they got nerfed. You're just a crappy player that gets your a-s handed to you by a cleric even though one execution or 2 CW or 1 GF is enough to hold back or 1 shot or kill a DC really fast.
That's very amusing given that you came out with unwarranted ad hominem at me. At least you had the courtesy to edit your post.
But to the point. I've not said anything about balance of AS in PvP, and nowhere have I stated that Astral Shield is OP in PvP. When I started leveling my cleric I read this PvE guide to the mechanics. Here is what the author of said guide, has to say about Astral Shield in PvE:
Currently an immensely overpowered spell, never to leave the Hotkeybar...
I do not believe there is any cleric in this game who actually thinks this spell as it is now on live is balanced in PvE.
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gord314Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited June 2013
I have not read the whole thread, but +1 for making needed items bind on pick up and greeded items bind on equip, this is the most elegant solution to the problem I have seen. It doesn't really work for crafting mats, enchants, and runestones, but I don't know if that would cause much of a problem.
That's very amusing given that you came out with unwarranted ad hominem at me. At least you had the courtesy to edit your post.
But to the point. I've not said anything about balance of AS in PvP, and nowhere have I stated that Astral Shield is OP in PvP. When I started leveling my cleric I read this PvE guide to the mechanics. Here is what the author of said guide, has to say about Astral Shield in PvE:
I do not believe there is any cleric in this game who actually thinks this spell as it is now on live is balanced in PvE.
If AS is a must-have, it's not because it's OP, but because all other powers are underpowered. AS is the only viable power that can support a party. If you don't agree, try to run a dungeon without AS on your bar. You will see if AS is OP, or if all the other powers are UP.
The stacking needed to go, but AS didn't need any further nerf. Whereas our other powers seriously needed some buffs or modifications. There is no way you can support a team with 18-20sec heals which heals 1/3 of potion or with a poor regen spell with static 15sec CD.
I'm not sure if you are trolling or if you are serious, but if you truly think that cleric needed a nerf and that AS is op while the rest is balanced, how about you record some video of you running T2 dungeon without AS on your bar ?
Comments
As of these balance changes, a Sentinel GWF is a permanent, walking singularity that's able to maintain higher mitigation alone than a DC can with AS and Foresight with 5/5 feats into foresight.
I know how Sunburst works it has been in my bar ever since lvl 6. It is an amazing AP,DP generation skill but it is a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> heal. If you claim its a valid heal, you are trolling. Truth is cleric has no other heals to do its job. AS was the only good heal we had and nothing will be close to replacing it. The stacking needed to go, there is no arguing about it. As has been told FFs is good but it has low uptime and will put more stress on already stressful class not to mention the team will need to recognize it and hug the correct mob without killing it, even with team speak that would be hard to achieve. Mono heals in an action RPG is a horrid idea and healing word has -40% less heal on us to top it off.
We have no other heals to replace it and i do not believe GFs or GWF will ever stack even nearly enough defence, considering diminishing return. AS gave room for those who live far away from servers and its not always about connection its the pure physical distance the ping needs to travel from player to server, taking in to account human reaction. I have no doubt static groups will find a way around it, its the casual players im worried about. And whether you like it or not, casual gamers are a sizable part of community.
Sorry, I missed the meme that AS was removed from the game, guess I've to delete my cleric now.
Well at least, next time I see a party wipe, I will be able to blame the GWF and the GF, for bad aggro or three shot with 2k def.
I'll be able to no brain like they used to, Astral Seal, AS sometimes when troubles, and then all the rest on GF/GWF's shoulders.
Sounds good doesn't it.
I think I will even get rid of AS on my bar and will play with my other powers, cause well it seems that they are all viable and AS is not a MUST-HAVE.
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
Yes, he will. Sentinel GWF in full titan has 60% passive damage reduction, around 60% deflect chance, and then can alternate between daring shout and unstoppable for extra 50% mitigation on top of all that. Nothing about this is new, except now GWF can actually hold threat on adds.
Looks interesting.
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
As I understand it, now you can stack Chill to benefit some feats/abilities that benefit from chill stacks, but the stacks themselves will do nothing.
You deliberately ignored all other points i made and just pulled one quote out of post. I will repeat it once more for you. AS gave room to people who live far away from servers and nerfing it the way developers plan to will hit casual gamer community in this game hard and wether you like it or not its a sizable part. No other heals will ever come close to filling up the missing 5 seconds gap if they are not buffed dramatically, which they are not.
But you are absolutely right, if you continue running TR TR CW CW DC parties people will die, that is intended.
Correct, the stacks will now apply to bosses, so the cilling presence passive and frost spells benefitting from chill stacks (like Conduit of Ice) will finally work on bosses.
To be honest i have my doubts if GF and GWF would be able to handle massive amount off adds, lest say above 10. Its due to diminishing return on stats. Meaning crowd control will play even bigger role but with nerf bat swung in CWs direction, it will be hard on them. Maybe CWs changes will not affect CC much since i never played that class.
What you are missing is that AS gave a chance for random groups to sucseed. It was not 100% "I will win" key but it gave a chance. Not all people can get in to static groups for one reason or the other. The penalty was harsh on those players already. I was forced so spend a lot of time farming gold since i PUGed a lot. Now this chance will be taken away and casual gamers will be forced to move on at some point, since it will lead to two things - outrageous amount of time spend searching for a group or a 100% failure if you do not strike gold with team.
I am aware content should not be easily done with random people and it never was easy for random groups. That said i am actually pro Cleanse nerf since it will push people to buy scrolls more and thus keep the game i like alive for longer. And it adds an extra layer to difficulty since revive debuff would actually matter.
I've solo healed and tanked T2 on my cleric with AS, that's with 35% DR from defense and AC, 11% from foresight and 24% from AS stacking up to 70%. If cleric can survive 10 adds with 70% DR, then my GWF who can maintain higher passive effective mitigation and have unstoppable and daring shout mitigation on top of that as well can survive it as well, yes, without Astral Shield. That was never a problem, the problem was threat, and this patch fixes that. You still need to heal the tanks, but if you can tank and heal yourself with -40% debuff, then you can heal a tank with your full heals even if you can't maintain AS 100% of the time.
What you are missing is that the only reason why AS is so crucial is because, again, tanks are either useless or nearly useless due to the threat mechanics. AS will still be a must have encounter, for those few seconds it's down you will have someone else using their cooldowns to stay alive and keep the adds off your squishy bum.
If you have one GF in team they will need to deal with more then 10 adds if threat was really fixed and they do not have the luxury to dodge once the shield was broken, so a good CCer still makes of brakes the team. The agro just shifts to someone else, i will admit someone with better tools to handle it.
This game is semi action game meaning you cant avoid all damage and at points you will be forced to stay still and face tank it, hoping CW is not asleep and is aware of situation and if in that time AS is down you have less defence and no consistent healing. Im speaking from my own experience in T2s. GWFs will face same problem as GFs will. Even if you have each of the class in team and they split adds between them crowd control still makes or brakes it. I do not believe you tanked all adds on youre cleric in T2, you kited thats true but you will never be able to take on the whole damage they dish out. In reality the team will have to deal with more then 5 sec AS downtime, due to human reaction. It takes time to asset the situation and place the shield correctly. So around 6-7 sec in best case.
I will say once again if you strike gold with team. What if GF or GWF are bad? And agro bounces all over field? Youre answer is do not run with randoms and my response not all can have static teams. We are back to square one and you ignoring what i wrote about giving a chance to random teams. I know well played groups will have ways around 5 seconds cool down. I repeat once more, its the casual players im worried about since i am one myself. I will say again, its a sizable part of community whether you like it or not. That said im washing my hands - you obviously do not share my concern about casual players.
I still think you do not grasp just how tough GWF or GF can be, here is an old video from live I made:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWNX54CJhws
Somewhere from 4:30 you can see me standing in a mob and boss aoe with astral shield up, I prolly didn't have a lot of agro on these adds anyway, we had a GF with us, but my hp doesn't even move a pixel down, and I'm not wearing tanking gear there either.
ATM I'm 2/4 Titan and 2/4 Vigilant Warlord, my DR is 56%. Even ignoring deflection, unstoppable and daring shout all together, Astral Shield with Foresight which puts my cleric at 70% DR, will put my GWF at 91% DR. NINETY. ONE. PERCENT. Tanking 10+ adds in such conditions is not easy, it's trivial. Astral shield down? Pop unstoppable or daring shout and show goes on. The only problem of Sentinel GWF on live is threat, and from reports we get from test shard is that a GWF just glues the adds to himself now.
And GF can do the job even better.
What if you go into a dungeon today on live and the cleric is bad? You can't seriously demand that the game is bastardised to a level where as long as you have a competent cleric the rest of the party can be drooling troglodytes and you still succeed in any dungeon (though maybe a bit slower).
I did not watch the whole video, part you pointed out are not 10 adds not even 7. My cleric with meager 2k def would have been able to handle it. Im talking about hard hitting boss adds and more the 10 in some dungeon encounters. Its where AS and good CC are crucial. I do believe fighters have tools to reduce damage and take on more then my cleric ever could but even they will fold if they size a whole room worth of boss adds or even majority and with no consistent healing on them.
Are you even reading what i post or you just reply in order to reply something? I already wrote i do not believe high lvl content should be easy on random groups and its not. It is far from that, if it was i would have a succsess rate of 70% out of all pug runs i do. As it stands in some dungeons it less then 20%. Competent cleric can not carry anyone now. I am far from perfect cleric and i will let the group judge whether or not i was good in particular run but i can immediately feel if we have a competent wizard. Its like the world turns on it axis thats how much a good CC makes an impact. AS is far from magic you will auto win skill, if you face tank more then you can handle in it you will die. If you fail to kite in it efficiently and stand in red spots you will die. It gives room for mistakes to which random groups are prone more then well played ones.
GF cant dodge, his shift ability is Shield Up, Blocked? yes, infront of him. side and rear? dunno, some bosses like Idris and Spider have attack like a blink-strike and others attack straight from up and below. also everyone need to remember, this game is not 100% action, still doing movement and action separately, for example you cant move while encounter. this means, still high possibility you get attacked, hell even boss attack mostly do by targeting all character in party
what I see the problem is not whether they good or bad, but how tough are their built? most of players I met build their fighter class along side the attacking type, not a defensive, and even GWF most people build it on single attack not AoE. can these player hold the aggro and boss altogether? not to mention all dungeons have different boss and adds difficulty
Also for the GWF's that wants to go the off-tank way, u should add increased threat to Wicked Strike (or make some paragon feat apply it) so we can effectively get aggro from trash and keep that aggro as well, because as it stands now, the only 2 AoE's that gives aggro is Slam (Daily, and if u HAVE that feat) and Daring Shout (again, u need to have a feat) also Dearing Shout does no initial damage, but with the feat u get 5% of ur total power dealt as damage when using this skill which with a total power of 4k that translates into...200 damage............ Just give wicked strike added threat and b done with it already!
On the flipside, non-Sentinel path players can still do their AoE job using Weaponmaster's Strike without worrying about unwanted aggro.
Now to something different and just as critical. Pvp!
I think that the efficiency of armor pen should b toned down. On my GWF i went the Sentinel paragon line.. Doing PvP, a high end geared rogue will still kick ur butt. eventhough i have 40% damage reduction, 40% deflect chance, 34ac, 2.4k armor and the sentinel trees passive (Increases defensive stat by 20%, but doesnt show on char sheet) i STILL eat 800-1k damage per knife from TR's ranged at-will.. He has 12.. Thats 10k+ damage.. Almost half my hp.. That is just plain wrong and imba when im described as an offtank! Also high end WC's deals devestating numbers and personally i believe that Armor Pen stacking is the reason for this.
In short, my not so well geared TR with lots of armor pen wrecks everything, my fairly high end tanky lil beef ball (Halfling) gets wrecked too fast by everything.
In the end though. I DO enjoy my GWF for PvE, i love its skillset and farming with him is a blast. But i must say i absolutely HATE PvP with him. For PvP i play my TR.
The reasons i hate PvP with my GWF is our lack of ability to absorb damage. I would like to able to grab the attention of things, endure being shot at and stuff while other team members does the killing. But 1 cc, and im in big trouble. No shield and no dodge complicates things for us. We have no gapclosers, no sneak abilities, no abilities to effectively get into the fight. TR gets stealth and a flashy backstab. CW has their range. GF has their shield and tankyness. But what do we have? Sprint? yeah thats not gonna get us too far. Its not helping me do my job one bit. So i get 3 choices, i can either barge in, take a CC from a CW and get slaughtered in secs by everyone.
OR i can barge in. take a CC from a CW, activate unstoppable when im half dead and still b slaughtered in secs by everyone.
OR i can wait for someone else b the meatshield which probably wont favor the team at all as you cant deal damage as efficiently as either rogue or CW. (you dont have the rogues burst or the CW's range and need to struggle to get into ppls faces)
Now for someone whos suppose to b the sturdiest piece on the battlefield aside from a GF you really havent got much good to offer ur team. I think that would all change if Unstoppable was changed to b charging at all times, not only when u smack stuff. In that way ud have a utility to help you get into the fight as well as u could take a beating and b a proper distraction at the very least before dying/running away. At least thats a good few secs where ur team can do some work now that u have the attention of the majority of ppl. the GWF would now b useful.
Class still needs a LOT of tweaks all-around. We're still like the poo of 2 worlds, though with the changes on test shard we're a bit less the poo of 2 worlds.
It seems we have a communication problem. I'm not saying that a tank is going to replace a cleric, neither am I saying that CC is useless. Here is the situation today:
a) GF or GWF when specced for tanking can take enormous amounts of damage.
b) Because of broken healing agro and not enough threat on tanks (GF is slightly better on live since he has taunts, Sentinel GWF in full Titan currently on live can't hold agro at all) a doesn't matter.
The reason why you have doubts regarding viability of tanks in this game is because tanks in this game are not viable, it's simply irrelevant how much mitigation I have if I can't keep agro. That is precisely the reason why people slap 2 CW and/or 2 DC in a party instead. Current meta PvE has successfully got rid of tank as an archetype, and the only reason this has happened is broken agro mechanics. Things got to such a ridiculous state that some GF, although (hopefully) in a sarcastic tone, refer to the new threat boost across all GF abilities as a nerf since their full dps spec GFs will now pull agro from the cleric and die
Now, AS gets nerfed and you ask how is cleric supposed to compensate for it? You don't. Your compensation for AS nerf is the resurrection of the tank archetype. From what I've read if you run a one-of-each party with one proper tank and using -40% threat passive you never have agro on a healing cleric. Tank has to be on toes for the 5 seconds AS is down, but both GF and GWF have tools to survive 5 seconds out of 15 easily, rest of the party should not have agro, or if **** hits the fan and they do - can kite a bit and use their dodge rolls, spam their CC and so on. If you do bring a GF, a GWF and a CW, you will have an absolute abundance of tools to deal with the adds. It may not be the perfect balance yet, but it's much healthier than what we have now.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?338571-The-Silence-is-Deafening
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?330491-Astral-Shield-has-been-completely-destroyed
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?334732-12k-Fully-Geared-Experienced-DC-opinions-on-patch
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?331132-Dear-Perfect-World-and-Community-If-you-think-Cleric-will-be-walkin-Solo-not-in-Pair
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?337771-Im-a-CW-but-you-guys-need-to-buff-clerics-and-get-rid-of-the-Astral-Shield-nerf
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?335122-Devoted-Cleric-Upcoming-Patch-Notes-Ruin-Class-Shield
Is this enough for you Cryptic?
Well, at least I'm not a ****** like you.
So you intercept a discussion that's been going on for some pages where I discuss basically nothing but the effects of threat in PvE and label that as "tanks becoming more OP"? Yes, GF is OP in PvP, but not because of his survival, and adding a massive amount of threat to his abilities does not making him less or more OP.
I have a 10.7k GS Cleric, and I did ask for a nerf to AS.
I started with a GWF, got it to 60 and somewhat decently geared. Then due to lack of dungeon parties I started a CW and it can do AoE just as well, if not better than the GWF. We just did Throne of Idris 4man with 3 CWs and a rogue without any problems or deaths. Every wizard focusing on AoE damage of course, no need for control. I like GWF and it's fun to play but there just isn't a role for it right now.
Vicorin, Half-Orc Great Weapon Fighter
Because you are in denial. I have a 13k GS DC and still don't see why they got nerfed. You're just a crappy player that gets your a-s handed to you by a cleric even though one execution or 2 CW or 1 GF is enough to hold back or 1 shot or kill a DC really fast.
You may be right and we might misunderstand what the other is trying to say. I know fighters are forced to go DPS spec since its really hard for them to keep agro of us. And i may have my doubts about them since i never saw a decent deff spec GF much less GWF. But not every GF/GWF in pug is a god send tank and i would need that extra room for teams mistakes. Instead of feeling if AS goes down and things go south, like im a horrid healer who fails to care for my group. I would have valid reasons too, if the update goes life. Since i know i wont be able to make a split second decision in 5 seconds where to place my FF and who will need it most. I dont know, maybe you are one of those sixth sense type of people, i am not. BoH would do too, but i rather not slot nightmare of a heal. On that i think we can conclude our replies. Obviously nether will share others option.
I see someone mentioned PvP. As i see it healers are not executers. I play mine much like i do in PvE. Go in the middle draw attention while my other team mates go off capping enemy node. I know i wont survive or kill anyway, i just draw away attention from our CWs or forcing them to stay long enough in middle. We are put at disadvantage with future update since heals wont count but they know it.
I know you guys have a tight schedule right now, but enchantments are an existing content that needs fixing (and balance as well). I wish my feedback can help you in that regard.
Keep up the good work !
That's very amusing given that you came out with unwarranted ad hominem at me. At least you had the courtesy to edit your post.
But to the point. I've not said anything about balance of AS in PvP, and nowhere have I stated that Astral Shield is OP in PvP. When I started leveling my cleric I read this PvE guide to the mechanics. Here is what the author of said guide, has to say about Astral Shield in PvE:
I do not believe there is any cleric in this game who actually thinks this spell as it is now on live is balanced in PvE.
If AS is a must-have, it's not because it's OP, but because all other powers are underpowered. AS is the only viable power that can support a party. If you don't agree, try to run a dungeon without AS on your bar. You will see if AS is OP, or if all the other powers are UP.
The stacking needed to go, but AS didn't need any further nerf. Whereas our other powers seriously needed some buffs or modifications. There is no way you can support a team with 18-20sec heals which heals 1/3 of potion or with a poor regen spell with static 15sec CD.
I'm not sure if you are trolling or if you are serious, but if you truly think that cleric needed a nerf and that AS is op while the rest is balanced, how about you record some video of you running T2 dungeon without AS on your bar ?
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )