techcenterzMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Righteousness should be redesigned and be more adaptive
In PVE and PvP
While Solo 0% debuff (if not implemented already "a group of 5 is required to enter this instance" so you can not solo dungeon or instance that is designed for a group)
While in a Group the debuff increases by 5 per extra person/party member
cleric +1 5%, +2 10%, +3 15%, +4 20%.
Because i've tried as many possible Feat Specs i could come up with and no matter how much you play with feats gear stats spell combo's and the crappy threat bug (treat reduction feats dont work) i am still using a potion on cooldown.
I would at least like to see the debuff removed while you are in a group. In a group setting you need to stay alive just as much as everyone else does, so this 40% reduction is just unfair.
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inspector135711Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I find it a little ironic that the judgment made in opposition to your initial judgment i regard to this threads placement, was a bit of a self-righteous act...
xD
That said, a response was requested, and a lurker responded. A response which, for now, required of them no accountability(to us ;P) and which "subtly" obfuscated the issue by burying it in a sub sub-thread...
I prefer a more direct form of communication, but if our mystery mod wanted a way to say something with out saying anything, they did a good job.
/shrug
As for your statement about taking a 0.000001 dmg multiplier because you are a "Healer"...
Well, I appreciate the thread, and I hate to point it out, but you screwed up right there. The class is Cleric.
In this iteration, we're seemingly being forced to play some derpy form of a cleric of Illmater(which I really would have liked as an option on the pantheon selection, btw) or some flagellant, but please don't dilute the class.
Its totally forgivable considering the whole problem of the converting D&D role playing game to the now, highly monetized f2p MMO genre, and the "xerox" trinity model developers have basically begun resting upon to ease the issue of "balance"(my most dreaded topic in gaming...) and development costs associated with design and implementation of "AAA" systems.
Honestly, IMHO balance doesn't belong anywhere near DnD, but then, as a DM, I get my cake, eat it, and never gain an ounce.
To those who have been nay-saying your thread:
If someone doesn't like a class, play the "best one" and laugh at others. If you're jealous, grow up. If you think you can make the game better, by all means chime in somewhere like here, or better yet the original forum section this was posted in, but otherwise, please let the grown-ups talk.
Being inundated with trolls that don't take the time to know a game, or want preference for what they perceive as "their" class or worse, this extends beyond games even and we find morons going on and on about how one game is a copy of another/etc... Ugg...
It's taxing, to be honest.
Anyway, I'm just saying, Deistik, please remain vigilant. You may have been working on min/maxing a heal spec'd build, but(debatably ;P) the only thing a cleric shouldn't be doing is "main" tanking, DPS should totally be on the table though. If we were talking about paladins...
Best not get me started... lol, too late.
I realize this is NWOnline, and on that note, GZ on the god-tier stats and keep the dream alive!
This de-buff IS unjustifiable and ill suited(to dnd, the class, to logic...).
Lets play DnD. From that side of the argument, it's a "no-brainer". Actually, I can see only selfserving ways in which it isn't a no-brainer. Not even pvp, at all, period... its a cleric.
It' like everyone forgot D&D is a ROLE PLAYING GAME... the builds should be focused, the abilities consistent, the play, FUN.
I get the feeling too many other games are having an effect here. This is NOT other games.
FFS
Its one thing to look for ways to monetize, its another thing to look for ways to placate crybabies to keep a crybaby packed player/customer base, another to sincerely play-test and balance actual system dynamics...
Meanwhile, in this context, it is "sacrilege" to corrupt the origins of the core design elements behind first edition dungeons and dragons.
The Cleric has come a long way since the first design notes for Chainmail, but then again, not really. I would love to know what Mr. Gygax would have said about this whole idea of blanket "righteousness" for all clerics...
Perhaps it was the spirit of gygax himself, that moved this thread in such a ghostly manner.
xD
Ok, Signed and moving on... for now.
I think the reason (not the answer) is simple.
The dev who is responsible for the Cleric class really wanted to look after something else, was pissed off when they got this and specced out the cleric in a fit of class hate.
...............vote for your favourite expansion.......... "Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity". ..............not this one then.............
As for your statement about taking a 0.000001 dmg multiplier because you are a "Healer"...
Well, I appreciate the thread, and I hate to point it out, but you screwed up right there. The class is Cleric.
That was a direct response to someone who stated clerics just wanted to do lots of damage, be able to tank mobs, and also heal. Quite obviously, I don't feel that way - was just trying to get my point across.
That was a direct response to someone who stated clerics just wanted to do lots of damage, be able to tank mobs, and also heal. Quite obviously, I don't feel that way - was just trying to get my point across.
Yeah it is a weird perspective some people have of the class. The last thing I want to do is tank mobs. I can understand having aggro at times, it happens in every game, but here we're having to heal, dps a bit to build dp, and then tank almost everything that spawns at any given time. Frankly the class just isn't capable of doing everything, nor should it be.
I rolled a healer to *gasp* heal! And no, as some people seem to think, that doesn't meant being semi-afk whilst keeping an eye on health bars every now and then. It means being actively engaged and monitoring the fight, it doesn't mean running around with an army of mobs trying to eat my face.
Not sure if this has been suggested but why not just nerf the heals and remove the debuff at the same time? I don't mean nerf heals into the ground just tune them a bit because they're too strong on allies and too weak when cast on yourself.
It doesn't need to be here, it doesn't even exsist in DnD, it's creating more problem than it woth not to mention every other class get a mechanic that benefits them while the Cleric suffers, Crytic keep your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of our DnD :mad:
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "A sin is a terrible burden to bare, Remdemption is the only solution."
I just started playing the game and I have to add my voice to this. I quest with a friend and I am always the one that's 'almost' dying due to threat mechanics (he's a GF) and this self de-buff. It's ridiculous.
Where the **** ARE THE MODS and WHAT ARE THEY DOING. They thank chat-banned ragers for their feedback and IGNORE cogent reports; Righteousness is a bigger issue than Duelist's Flurry not stacking, get off your asses and do something. It's really bothering me how long this has gone unnoticed while just yesterday I see Sominator going around and at least acknowledging seemingly every other unimportant base-line issue anyone could have. This is absurd.
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noobiieeMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 29Arc User
edited May 2013
I am . I only want an answer, only a ****ing answer!
0
noobiieeMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 29Arc User
I agree. Hell, I would give up the ability to stack Astral Shield if it means Righteousness could be removed. The fact that Righteousness is even there hinders a DC from using using builds that don't give as much healing ability-it practically forces us to constantly have to use potions when we should be healing our allies while hitting mobs. Is there any other class with an automatic debuff like this?? This is ridiculous.
i really hate to play a cleric in this game now. i am only 48, but i cant really heal myself at all dungeons end bosses. i only try to run and use potions, or i die in few seconds. is it really so hard, to add a real selfheal or remove this stupid debuff.
the devs should play everquest 2, lineage 2 or even tera to gound out, how a healer work.
I am having trouble on normal dungeons already! this will be horrible! all because rogues and wizard got tired of 2 shotting everyclass, so now they can oneshot!
its balanced that way for a reason... for a start you allies only get a heal when you put a heal on them, you however are ALWAYS healing, because everytime you heal your getting some of that healing.
The people is not with the healing nerf on self, the problem is combination of too much aggro and in some cases the group not doing its duty to protect the cleric
its balanced that way for a reason... for a start you allies only get a heal when you put a heal on them, you however are ALWAYS healing, because everytime you heal your getting some of that healing.
The people is not with the healing nerf on self, the problem is combination of too much aggro and in some cases the group not doing its duty to protect the cleric
Your so called reason/explanation is not fully correct.
The "you however are ALWAYS healing" is somewhat true but is not really that great when you look at it, every time you use say Healing Word, no matter how many times you put that on someone or as many people as you can, it simply only resets its HoT timer, and does not stack, so really, yeah the 40% debuff is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> the healer over as we get little healing compared to the ones we are healing.
That's pretty much all the healing you get btw and a little from Sun Burst, you cant really count the tiny amount of healing from Astral Seal. So really others are getting 100% heal from us and really no matter how many ppl we heal we only get 60% of that at a steady rate, while we get attacked by random mobs due to agro..
BTW the party gets heals non stop from Astral Seal if the healer remembers to put it up and keep it up, and spamming Sun Burst near others also heals party members (making your 1st part of your post weak for that reason of yours), so unless the healer is doing direct heals with Healing Word we are actually getting very little heals anyway compared to the others hitting the mobs/boss.
And can we loose the **** HoT counter in game? I want to see what each tick really is healing for, not how much I healed over time in one sitting. or is there an option for that? and I've simply missed it 0.o
I am 100% in line with the op. This....is ridiculous. How it even managed to be put in the game is beyond mind-boggling. Flat out remove it. It is 100% unnecessary to nealy half a classes effect on itself. Its like Im healing you like a level 60 but healing myself like a level 35. Just beyond idiotic... Remove it or change the classes name from devoted cleric to devoted potionmaster...seriously cryptic W T F were you thinking?
The thing that ruins it for me is Righteousness + stupidly high aggro on all mobs. I mean if there was only one of those two it would still be challenging but doable and fun. But if you combine both of those it's only frustrating. Not only for the cleric but all others trying to help the poor sod too. I can't count the times I shouted at my GWF buddy in Vent to help me and he did all he could but to no avail. Running around like a chicken chugging pots / stones and hoping that the mobs die before I do is not much fun for me. Aggro not resetting on rez just makes it so much worse...
So in my opinion either get rid of Righteousness or the massive healing aggro OR implement a mechanic so that the cleric can ACTIVELY do something about the situation. Like a WoW-esque "Fade" mechanic that drops aggro completley for some seconds or a "Divine Shield" of sorts with invulnerability for a few seconds.
Don't get me wrong - I really like my cleric and its playing style but for me (especially in pugs) its just frustrating at times.
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noobiieeMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 29Arc User
So after running most of the T2 dungeons I have to bump this again. This Righteousness is ridiculous and utterly insane. They NEED to fix the aggro, remove this Righteousness BS (even in PvP, heals aren't imbalanced when people press "1" to kill you, or push you out of your fap circle then proceed to choke, debuff, and throw a big icicle on your head, or bash your brains in with 2 shot shield), then think about nerfing Astral Shield (stacking aspect, gives viability to bringing a gf, god forbid a gwf to a pve party without it being completely useless).
Oh, and give the cleric dodge invinsibility frames as well. I don't see the reason why the CW/TR dodges have it and we don't. I'd be semi-ok with righteousness if our dodge had invinsibility frames, makes kiting less tedious and praying that once you dodge there won't be another big red circle for you to land on.
After going through a frankly painful leveling experience with my Cleric, made up in the main of ridiculous mass mob aggro in every group, coupled with the inability to heal myself thanks to the plainly stupid -40% debuff, it is now level 60 - and parked.
Healer with a penalty on self healing ability - what idiot decided that was a good idea?
No incentive to roll something else - my love is playing healing classes.
So that's it until something is done about this class. Game over until then.
PWE - your move.
Lyaise - Trisha Mora
...............vote for your favourite expansion.......... "Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity". ..............not this one then.............
Not sure how many people know this, but astral shield, forgemaster's flame, and hallowed ground heals aren't affected by righteousness. Since that's a good portion of your healing on almost every encounter that doesn't really seem that bad.
0
muirwenMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 4Arc User
After going through a frankly painful leveling experience with my Cleric, made up in the main of ridiculous mass mob aggro in every group, coupled with the inability to heal myself thanks to the plainly stupid -40% debuff, it is now level 60 - and parked.
Healer with a penalty on self healing ability - what idiot decided that was a good idea?
No incentive to roll something else - my love is playing healing classes.
So that's it until something is done about this class. Game over until then.
PWE - your move.
Lyaise - Trisha Mora
Not even at mid-level with my Cleric, but I already started to feel the pain of Righteousness and add-aggro in the parties I joined. While still doable, knowing where this eventually will lead to (see all postings on this ridiculous debuff and aggro) I decided like above poster to park my Cleric as well, and healing classes being the reason to play these games, park Neverwinter as well till this is fixed.
Comments
In PVE and PvP
While Solo 0% debuff
(if not implemented already "a group of 5 is required to enter this instance" so you can not solo dungeon or instance that is designed for a group)
While in a Group the debuff increases by 5 per extra person/party member
cleric +1 5%, +2 10%, +3 15%, +4 20%.
Because i've tried as many possible Feat Specs i could come up with and no matter how much you play with feats gear stats spell combo's and the crappy threat bug (treat reduction feats dont work) i am still using a potion on cooldown.
xD
That said, a response was requested, and a lurker responded. A response which, for now, required of them no accountability(to us ;P) and which "subtly" obfuscated the issue by burying it in a sub sub-thread...
I prefer a more direct form of communication, but if our mystery mod wanted a way to say something with out saying anything, they did a good job.
/shrug
As for your statement about taking a 0.000001 dmg multiplier because you are a "Healer"...
Well, I appreciate the thread, and I hate to point it out, but you screwed up right there. The class is Cleric.
In this iteration, we're seemingly being forced to play some derpy form of a cleric of Illmater(which I really would have liked as an option on the pantheon selection, btw) or some flagellant, but please don't dilute the class.
Its totally forgivable considering the whole problem of the converting D&D role playing game to the now, highly monetized f2p MMO genre, and the "xerox" trinity model developers have basically begun resting upon to ease the issue of "balance"(my most dreaded topic in gaming...) and development costs associated with design and implementation of "AAA" systems.
Honestly, IMHO balance doesn't belong anywhere near DnD, but then, as a DM, I get my cake, eat it, and never gain an ounce.
To those who have been nay-saying your thread:
If someone doesn't like a class, play the "best one" and laugh at others. If you're jealous, grow up. If you think you can make the game better, by all means chime in somewhere like here, or better yet the original forum section this was posted in, but otherwise, please let the grown-ups talk.
Being inundated with trolls that don't take the time to know a game, or want preference for what they perceive as "their" class or worse, this extends beyond games even and we find morons going on and on about how one game is a copy of another/etc... Ugg...
It's taxing, to be honest.
Anyway, I'm just saying, Deistik, please remain vigilant. You may have been working on min/maxing a heal spec'd build, but(debatably ;P) the only thing a cleric shouldn't be doing is "main" tanking, DPS should totally be on the table though. If we were talking about paladins...
Best not get me started... lol, too late.
I realize this is NWOnline, and on that note, GZ on the god-tier stats and keep the dream alive!
This de-buff IS unjustifiable and ill suited(to dnd, the class, to logic...).
Lets play DnD. From that side of the argument, it's a "no-brainer". Actually, I can see only selfserving ways in which it isn't a no-brainer. Not even pvp, at all, period... its a cleric.
It' like everyone forgot D&D is a ROLE PLAYING GAME... the builds should be focused, the abilities consistent, the play, FUN.
I get the feeling too many other games are having an effect here. This is NOT other games.
FFS
Its one thing to look for ways to monetize, its another thing to look for ways to placate crybabies to keep a crybaby packed player/customer base, another to sincerely play-test and balance actual system dynamics...
Meanwhile, in this context, it is "sacrilege" to corrupt the origins of the core design elements behind first edition dungeons and dragons.
The Cleric has come a long way since the first design notes for Chainmail, but then again, not really. I would love to know what Mr. Gygax would have said about this whole idea of blanket "righteousness" for all clerics...
Perhaps it was the spirit of gygax himself, that moved this thread in such a ghostly manner.
xD
Ok, Signed and moving on... for now.
The dev who is responsible for the Cleric class really wanted to look after something else, was pissed off when they got this and specced out the cleric in a fit of class hate.
"Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
..............not this one then.............
That was a direct response to someone who stated clerics just wanted to do lots of damage, be able to tank mobs, and also heal. Quite obviously, I don't feel that way - was just trying to get my point across.
Yeah it is a weird perspective some people have of the class. The last thing I want to do is tank mobs. I can understand having aggro at times, it happens in every game, but here we're having to heal, dps a bit to build dp, and then tank almost everything that spawns at any given time. Frankly the class just isn't capable of doing everything, nor should it be.
I rolled a healer to *gasp* heal! And no, as some people seem to think, that doesn't meant being semi-afk whilst keeping an eye on health bars every now and then. It means being actively engaged and monitoring the fight, it doesn't mean running around with an army of mobs trying to eat my face.
"A sin is a terrible burden to bare, Remdemption is the only solution."
the devs should play everquest 2, lineage 2 or even tera to gound out, how a healer work.
The people is not with the healing nerf on self, the problem is combination of too much aggro and in some cases the group not doing its duty to protect the cleric
This is the only game I'm aware of where the healing class has a penalty to healing themselves.
Stupid. <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Has no place in PvE.
Your so called reason/explanation is not fully correct.
The "you however are ALWAYS healing" is somewhat true but is not really that great when you look at it, every time you use say Healing Word, no matter how many times you put that on someone or as many people as you can, it simply only resets its HoT timer, and does not stack, so really, yeah the 40% debuff is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> the healer over as we get little healing compared to the ones we are healing.
That's pretty much all the healing you get btw and a little from Sun Burst, you cant really count the tiny amount of healing from Astral Seal. So really others are getting 100% heal from us and really no matter how many ppl we heal we only get 60% of that at a steady rate, while we get attacked by random mobs due to agro..
BTW the party gets heals non stop from Astral Seal if the healer remembers to put it up and keep it up, and spamming Sun Burst near others also heals party members (making your 1st part of your post weak for that reason of yours), so unless the healer is doing direct heals with Healing Word we are actually getting very little heals anyway compared to the others hitting the mobs/boss.
And can we loose the **** HoT counter in game? I want to see what each tick really is healing for, not how much I healed over time in one sitting. or is there an option for that? and I've simply missed it 0.o
So in my opinion either get rid of Righteousness or the massive healing aggro OR implement a mechanic so that the cleric can ACTIVELY do something about the situation. Like a WoW-esque "Fade" mechanic that drops aggro completley for some seconds or a "Divine Shield" of sorts with invulnerability for a few seconds.
Don't get me wrong - I really like my cleric and its playing style but for me (especially in pugs) its just frustrating at times.
Oh, and give the cleric dodge invinsibility frames as well. I don't see the reason why the CW/TR dodges have it and we don't. I'd be semi-ok with righteousness if our dodge had invinsibility frames, makes kiting less tedious and praying that once you dodge there won't be another big red circle for you to land on.
PVP: How to make your life less miserable as a Devoted Clerics -- Still in it's Unfinished Glory
Dragon
Healer with a penalty on self healing ability - what idiot decided that was a good idea?
No incentive to roll something else - my love is playing healing classes.
So that's it until something is done about this class. Game over until then.
PWE - your move.
Lyaise - Trisha Mora
"Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
..............not this one then.............
Not even at mid-level with my Cleric, but I already started to feel the pain of Righteousness and add-aggro in the parties I joined. While still doable, knowing where this eventually will lead to (see all postings on this ridiculous debuff and aggro) I decided like above poster to park my Cleric as well, and healing classes being the reason to play these games, park Neverwinter as well till this is fixed.