erisandeMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 11Arc User
edited May 2013
I find it amusing that now people are finding reasons to complain - over a misconstrued definition.
I don't care if it's closed beta, open beta, no beta, live beta, beta fish. If the exploits are getting fixed (albeit at a slow pace, but FIXED), then I'm happy. They can call it whatever they want.
There's no sense complaining over them calling it an open beta and telling us that they're "insulting our intelligence." No.. You're insulting it by assuming we can't make that decision for ourselves. But, then again, it's all opinions so perhaps not.
Either way, I've participated in a lot of "open betas" and this is typically how it goes. Maybe the definition is evolving. As long as they keep fixing things and pumping out new content, they have my vote.
(inb4 p2win issues: go farm your bloody astral diamonds, you can get stuff too.)
Many many games these days, not just Neverwinter, claim to be in beta but aren't. The "open beta" term has been used and abused the past couple of years in the gaming industry by select developers / publishers; afraid that their incomplete and buggy game would get shred to pieces by reviewers and players if they called it an official release. Calling it a "beta" gives them an excuse (a bad one) to release a game and make money, while still patching it up to become more complete and less buggy.
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kasuhariMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited May 2013
I have already learn and know that Open Beta especially on a F2P game mean it's already live already. After this point, they can keep it in Open Beta infinitely, most of the case because with this they can get away with "Oh, it still a Beta." And you people need to learn that MMORPG always changing, so it best to call it "Open Beta." There is no live anymore, especially in PW Game.
The only thing giving this issue any meaning are the people arguing about it.
When it came up in an interview with producer Andy Velasquez, the interviewer gave a few of the semantic definitions you people have been tossing around, and instead of picking one, Andy just chuckled and answered, "Sure..." and got on with the interview. Not something they're really thinking about over there in programming land.
You all care about this way too much. Times are a'changin', you'll be seeing a lot more of this kind of thing in gaming. Heck, to people on Steam it's old hat.
_
[SIGPIC]Captain Electric and the Sapien Spider[/SIGPIC]
The only thing giving this issue any meaning are the people arguing about it.
When it came up in an interview with producer Andy Velasquez, the interviewer gave a few of the semantic definitions you people have been tossing around, and instead of picking one, Andy just chuckled and answered, "Sure..." and got on with the interview. Not something they're really thinking about over there in programming land.
First, you listened to that interview wrong. There was no multiple-choice definition game played that the producer waved off as pointless.
The interviewer said: "So as far as the open beta goes, I mean.. realistically, you kind of ask the fans and the people who played it, you could say that the game has been launched, but kinda Cryptic have gained a bit of grace period while bugs are still being fixed and stuff like that."
Producer Andy Velasquez responded: "(nervous 'busted' laughter) Sure."
Which, if anything, is an admission that they know they're hiding behind the beta label.
Second, I think you're being naive if you think review scores, media opinion, even player opinions - particularly negative opinions/scores - don't have a hand in lighting a fire under a developer's rear-end when needed. But if all a game's problems get chalked up to "Well, it's still in beta, so let's wait to see how things are at launch" and the result of that is opinions and reviews being held off until the developer decides to label their game as launched.. then you're going to have a team that's perhaps not taking pressing issues as seriously as they could.
Even in development, the squeaky wheel gets greased. Complaints that come up frequently are the ones that get the most attention. Had you listened more carefully to that whole interview you would have heard the producer explaining that himself. But when the beta label gets improperly used as a shield to counter those complaints that's not helping anyone.
It all may be moot soon, however, as the producer seemed to slip in a statement about Neverwinter going "live" early in June.
before pointing around and make accusation with zero lead start with the basic concept of Software release life cycle. read clearly, and you'll find this:
Open betas serve the dual purpose of demonstrating a product to potential consumers, and testing among an extremely wide user base likely to bring to light obscure errors that a much smaller testing team might not find.
so it got nothing to do of wipe data server or item mall with fully functioning items.
above all, if you blame PWE about losing money on ZEN or pack or whatever it is, try to ask yourself, who the one deciding to buy those thing while it still labelled Open Beta, and even worse not reading the ToS?
who cares. all that matters is if you are having fun. so far with the issues in the game i find my self having fun. Call it what you want but as long as i have fun i will play. Once when the fun stops then i will move on.
Calling it Beta, Alpha, Gamma or Penguin wouldn't mean anything to me.
Moonshadow Drow Cleric, Mr. Pickles Human Control Wizard, Ogre Hafling Guardian Fighter
Exactly. It is unfortunate that many people conflate loyalty to a company/game with defending an obviously deceptive premise.
Name me ONE free to play game launched recently that didn't had at least 6 months of open beta and no wipe.
Its common modern practice, don't try to shoot PWE, everyone does that, Allods Online did, Mu did, DoTa 2 does, Smite does.
Name me ONE free to play game launched recently that didn't had at least 6 months of open beta and no wipe.
Its common modern practice, don't try to shoot PWE, everyone does that, Allods Online did, Mu did, DoTa 2 does, Smite does.
Its really a norm, nothing to spaz about.
Prior to Vindictus launching in North America, its open beta period was only about a month long.
Marvel Heroes has only had a smattering of "open beta weekends" between closed beta and launch. On top of that, I believe they are wiping at launch.
There are examples out there if you bother to look around.
I just want to add.. I'm really surprised by some of the naivete in this thread, especially as some of this should just be common sense.
When a developer has a firm launch deadline, and that deadline is approaching, it is not at all unusual for the development team to put their noses to the grindstone in order to pick up the pace of development.
When you remove the deadline spurring on that crunch.. when you have a company saying "we're in beta and it's done when it's done", then that sense of urgency is no longer there and it takes them that much longer to fix bugs, tweak balance adjustments, develop additional content, and/or add features to the game.
I don't think anyone here will ever label MMO development speed as "quick". More often than not we're all dissatisfied and frustrated with the amount of time it takes to get things finished or fixed. And if you're an MMO fan, you do not want to have an environment where developers don't have the pressure of a deadline looming over them.
Now, someone is going to try to counter that statement by saying rushed deadlines are how we wind up with buggy releases. And there is definitely some truth to that when you're referring to unreasonable deadlines. But don't ignore the fact that there has been no shortage of bugs, balance issues, and missing content in Neverwinter, even without a release date pressing developers into action.
Open Beta until true end game content is released...
I have no issues putting cash into Open Betas.
I play another one now (non-MMO Warframe) that I'm a Founder on and have bought some of their in-game currency separately.
I just payed $10 for Zen so that I can unlock 2 more character slots and maybe buy something from the cash shop here.
These days, developers are under more pressure to get their games out there, even if they aren't finished yet.
It's Open Beta until it's done.
Incorrect. Just because "YOU'RE" fine with giving money to a beta, doesn't mean everyone else is, and quite frankly, since it's not a valid business model, you're full of it with that statement. Donations? ok. Paying for services? That's launched, end of story. End game released is the "technical full launch" in the eyes of gamers, but the bottom line above even the technical aspect? game offers services you can pay for, it's launched, enough said, you literally are pandering nonsense if you think otherwise.
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thelingarnMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 13Arc User
And you win what with that claim? It means what? I mean really if it is live but the studio and producers want to call it beta so what?
What you win is the inability of the studio (or its zealous defenders) to pull out "open beta" as an excuse for the state of the game.
I have paid for my pack. I want this game to succeed. I want NWO to be a great game, and part of that is having the integrity to own up to the problems, rather than hide behind an "open beta" label.
I think that the truth is that they had to push it out before it was ready, and chose to use a deceptive label to cover a launch they knew was not good enough. I don't think that we, as players, as customers, as fans, should have to put up with being treated like we can't tell the difference.
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thelingarnMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 13Arc User
Name me ONE free to play game launched recently that didn't had at least 6 months of open beta and no wipe.
Its common modern practice, don't try to shoot PWE, everyone does that, Allods Online did, Mu did, DoTa 2 does, Smite does.
Its really a norm, nothing to spaz about.
A deceptive practice is deceptive if one person does it or if everyone does it. The principle does not depend on the popularity of the scheme.
Open Beta until true end game content is released...
I have no issues putting cash into Open Betas.
I play another one now (non-MMO Warframe) that I'm a Founder on and have bought some of their in-game currency separately.
I just payed $10 for Zen so that I can unlock 2 more character slots and maybe buy something from the cash shop here.
These days, developers are under more pressure to get their games out there, even if they aren't finished yet.
It's Open Beta until it's done.
They made a product/service available for general availability / public consumption for a monetary amount... its a RELEASE. period. end of story.
They can try and fool and dupe people into thinking this is a real beta to cover up such an untested release but it still doesn't change anything. I can call a cheeseburger a steak but its still a cheeseburger.
The volume of people laughing at Cryptic for trying such a ruse is epic... its reached pure comical levels.
A very good write up. The key issues that have split this forum in two are covered very nicely. It also certainly helped calm me down slightly as to why a company might want to walk this line..
The game still feels dirty to me,knowing a lot of exploited xp and loot will get by,but as the writer here stated. To write off a game in the first few weeks is not giving a team of devs who did work their asses off a fair shot.. Horrible choices aside.
Still pushing for a wipe tho...
I wish they would do a char wipe too..but..
After them NOT doing with all the exploits found (and the ones still there..GF can STILL one shot everything LOL)
They will not do it.
I like the game, i was hoping they would restore my faith in playing, but just like STO, I have been let down.
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wolfheartazMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Comments
I don't care if it's closed beta, open beta, no beta, live beta, beta fish. If the exploits are getting fixed (albeit at a slow pace, but FIXED), then I'm happy. They can call it whatever they want.
There's no sense complaining over them calling it an open beta and telling us that they're "insulting our intelligence." No.. You're insulting it by assuming we can't make that decision for ourselves. But, then again, it's all opinions so perhaps not.
Either way, I've participated in a lot of "open betas" and this is typically how it goes. Maybe the definition is evolving. As long as they keep fixing things and pumping out new content, they have my vote.
(inb4 p2win issues: go farm your bloody astral diamonds, you can get stuff too.)
The only thing giving this issue any meaning are the people arguing about it.
When it came up in an interview with producer Andy Velasquez, the interviewer gave a few of the semantic definitions you people have been tossing around, and instead of picking one, Andy just chuckled and answered, "Sure..." and got on with the interview. Not something they're really thinking about over there in programming land.
You all care about this way too much. Times are a'changin', you'll be seeing a lot more of this kind of thing in gaming. Heck, to people on Steam it's old hat.
[SIGPIC]Captain Electric and the Sapien Spider[/SIGPIC]
"YES, PLEASE"
Vote YES for the Foundry in Champions Online.
@Captain-Electric | CoH/Virtue veteran | Proud new Champion
First, you listened to that interview wrong. There was no multiple-choice definition game played that the producer waved off as pointless.
The interviewer said: "So as far as the open beta goes, I mean.. realistically, you kind of ask the fans and the people who played it, you could say that the game has been launched, but kinda Cryptic have gained a bit of grace period while bugs are still being fixed and stuff like that."
Producer Andy Velasquez responded: "(nervous 'busted' laughter) Sure."
Which, if anything, is an admission that they know they're hiding behind the beta label.
Second, I think you're being naive if you think review scores, media opinion, even player opinions - particularly negative opinions/scores - don't have a hand in lighting a fire under a developer's rear-end when needed. But if all a game's problems get chalked up to "Well, it's still in beta, so let's wait to see how things are at launch" and the result of that is opinions and reviews being held off until the developer decides to label their game as launched.. then you're going to have a team that's perhaps not taking pressing issues as seriously as they could.
Even in development, the squeaky wheel gets greased. Complaints that come up frequently are the ones that get the most attention. Had you listened more carefully to that whole interview you would have heard the producer explaining that himself. But when the beta label gets improperly used as a shield to counter those complaints that's not helping anyone.
It all may be moot soon, however, as the producer seemed to slip in a statement about Neverwinter going "live" early in June.
Still someone has some doubts?
And you win what with that claim? It means what? I mean really if it is live but the studio and producers want to call it beta so what?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
so it got nothing to do of wipe data server or item mall with fully functioning items.
above all, if you blame PWE about losing money on ZEN or pack or whatever it is, try to ask yourself, who the one deciding to buy those thing while it still labelled Open Beta, and even worse not reading the ToS?
Calling it Beta, Alpha, Gamma or Penguin wouldn't mean anything to me.
Name me ONE free to play game launched recently that didn't had at least 6 months of open beta and no wipe.
Its common modern practice, don't try to shoot PWE, everyone does that, Allods Online did, Mu did, DoTa 2 does, Smite does.
Its really a norm, nothing to spaz about.
Prior to Vindictus launching in North America, its open beta period was only about a month long.
Marvel Heroes has only had a smattering of "open beta weekends" between closed beta and launch. On top of that, I believe they are wiping at launch.
There are examples out there if you bother to look around.
You mean like they do on this page?:
http://www.perfectworld.com/
When a developer has a firm launch deadline, and that deadline is approaching, it is not at all unusual for the development team to put their noses to the grindstone in order to pick up the pace of development.
When you remove the deadline spurring on that crunch.. when you have a company saying "we're in beta and it's done when it's done", then that sense of urgency is no longer there and it takes them that much longer to fix bugs, tweak balance adjustments, develop additional content, and/or add features to the game.
I don't think anyone here will ever label MMO development speed as "quick". More often than not we're all dissatisfied and frustrated with the amount of time it takes to get things finished or fixed. And if you're an MMO fan, you do not want to have an environment where developers don't have the pressure of a deadline looming over them.
Now, someone is going to try to counter that statement by saying rushed deadlines are how we wind up with buggy releases. And there is definitely some truth to that when you're referring to unreasonable deadlines. But don't ignore the fact that there has been no shortage of bugs, balance issues, and missing content in Neverwinter, even without a release date pressing developers into action.
Incorrect. Just because "YOU'RE" fine with giving money to a beta, doesn't mean everyone else is, and quite frankly, since it's not a valid business model, you're full of it with that statement. Donations? ok. Paying for services? That's launched, end of story. End game released is the "technical full launch" in the eyes of gamers, but the bottom line above even the technical aspect? game offers services you can pay for, it's launched, enough said, you literally are pandering nonsense if you think otherwise.
What you win is the inability of the studio (or its zealous defenders) to pull out "open beta" as an excuse for the state of the game.
I have paid for my pack. I want this game to succeed. I want NWO to be a great game, and part of that is having the integrity to own up to the problems, rather than hide behind an "open beta" label.
I think that the truth is that they had to push it out before it was ready, and chose to use a deceptive label to cover a launch they knew was not good enough. I don't think that we, as players, as customers, as fans, should have to put up with being treated like we can't tell the difference.
A deceptive practice is deceptive if one person does it or if everyone does it. The principle does not depend on the popularity of the scheme.
Your argument is invalid.
They made a product/service available for general availability / public consumption for a monetary amount... its a RELEASE. period. end of story.
They can try and fool and dupe people into thinking this is a real beta to cover up such an untested release but it still doesn't change anything. I can call a cheeseburger a steak but its still a cheeseburger.
The volume of people laughing at Cryptic for trying such a ruse is epic... its reached pure comical levels.
Not to mention who got this game for free? This isn't a free game. Mind boggling how easily duped and misled kids are these days.
No one is playing this game for free. The initial game costs at least $60.
That is absolutely daft there are thousands and tens of thousands playing the game for free who have spent no money on the game.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
What are you talking about. I just hit level 60 with a rogue and I have not spent a penny on it yet.
It is a free game.
I wish they would do a char wipe too..but..
After them NOT doing with all the exploits found (and the ones still there..GF can STILL one shot everything LOL)
They will not do it.
I like the game, i was hoping they would restore my faith in playing, but just like STO, I have been let down.
Yeah, strange he would say that.
I have 2 lvl 60s and have not spend any money on the game (I refuse to after all the money i gave to STO at the start of that)
economy saved? :I