This isn't the pen-and-paper game. How rogues function in proper DnD isn't really relevant. The class structure in an MMO works differently by necessity. That being said, I have another issue with what you're saying. Namely in your understanding of what an "assassin" is. You're complaining that in a 1v1 fight you'd lose against a rogue, but isn't that essentially what an assassin should be like? Assassins don't excel at taking out multiple enemies. They excel at taking out one.
Hypothetically, let's say that you could easily take on a rogue in a fair, 1v1 fight. What then would their purpose be? Their control and AOE capabilities are weak, they can't tank, they can't heal, and they have very little skills based around attacking multiple enemies. As it stands, rogues have good escaping capabilities and superior damage output. Take one of those away and you're left with...what?
see and that right there is exactly why i posted this thread. because people tryin to complain about certain things they don't like about the game are going to force the DEVS to nerf a class and render it useless. And then everyones going to hate playing that class. and it will ruin the game. If you nerf the rogues 1v1 potential it will literally be useless. It has nothing else. It's class basically survives on the fact that it has the highest 1v1 burst dps in the game. The GWF sacrifices that burst damage potential for increased survivablity (slight) and sustained dps or damage over a longer period of time.
Cleric is rubbish in PvP you get stun locked your always first target and the heals are rubbish, may as well be no healer in PvP with the amount of damage verse healing as its useless. Place a seal throw a couple of heals and dead. Although this is level 28 not tried 60. I think healers in general need something changing in this game as there not fun to play.
I think you're playing it wrong because I personally don't have that problem. maybe your forgetting to cast your hots on yourself preheal? I hot myself then burst heal then focus heal with my right click. when all the heals stack like that you heal for a pretty insane amount pretty quickly.
( I've literally healed a GF under damage from all 5 opposing players through an entire rotation of cc and skills while my team was wiped, and had them all come back and wipe the opposing team. their fault for not focusing me, again lack of team coordination.)
One thing I'm hearing alot about in this thread though is that chain crowd control with no diminishing returns is unbalanced because you're stun locked until your dead. here's my perspective on that
1. Why are you in a position where the entire opposing team CAN stun lock you like that? As a CW for example, even in a 5v5 team fight I NEVER put myself in a spot where more than one maybe 2 ppl can touch me. of course unless its to make a play like ccing the opposing teams rogue or knockbacking someone off of my teammate whose dying. and No matter what I always leave myself with an escape plan. At least ONE dodge and either a daily or knockback to help myself get away. Meanwhile the GF is just soaking up everyones cd's and everyone else is making plays based off of that.
2. If you are a GF or rogue getting stun locked ( because you should be the only 2 that get in a position where that can happen to you) then that goes back to that there is no team coordination in this game. as a CW, my knockback has an 8 sec cd. The first thing I do when the teamfight starts is i look to see who is gettin the most pressure from the opposing team. if its the GF and hes not stun locked, great. But if its anyone else like the rogue, then I'm keeping myself at a safe distance and burning ALL of my cd's to peel everyone off of him. Meanwhile the cleric should be burning HIS cds to keep the rogue healthy and the gf and gwf should be in the opposing team focusing and stun locking a priority target like the opposing CW. Again all in the efforts of peeling for your squishy thats getting murdered.
3. If you're a GWF you shouldn't ever complain about this because you can literally press tab in the middle of a CC to break free and be immune to all incoming cc's PLUS make yourself tankier and heal yourself.
Another thing that I think someone mentioned earlier is I don't think people are bringing the right skills into PVP. They're coming into PVP with all their PVE HIGH DAMAGE SKILLS and being like hey im goin to kill everybody.
Seriously?
When i get ready for pvp, i literally go through my entire skill list, spells, dailies, at wills and buffs. and i ask myself, how will this kit effect my TEAMS performance. Should i be focusing on damage or crowd control. maybe mobility? or aoe buffs?
thats why my cleric is a str8 healer with pretty much no damaging spells.
my rogue is str8 damage with a little survival mixed in for single target assassinations
my gwf is focused on tankiness and mobility for securing obectives and cc abilities for peeling ( NOT DAMAGE )
my gf is str8 cc and tankiness buffs for maximum survivability while holding mid as well as peeling ability
and my cw has a str8 cc kit that gives it decent damage and maxes survivability.
my entire team is built around a help the TR and CW survive while holding objectives for as long as possible build, PRIORITIZING TR survival. why? BECAUSE HES THE DAMAGE.
I mean everyone right now wants their class to be a TR in pvp. just run around and kill everything.
Are you serious guys? I mean if we have it your way i guess neverwinter will never grow into gaining a possible competitive scene. it'll just be everyone run around killing everyone with no teamwork at all. Sounds AWESOME
You're crazy if you think GF is balanced. I had to reroll because GF is not wanted in dungeon groups and because they can be locked out 100% of their HP before even reacting by a TR/CW. Seriously, this game mainly has 3 classes right now that are viable and wanted in groups...PVP or PVE.
Man I couldnt agree more with your post. I, like you, think that the main problem with people in this game, is that they do not play as a TEAM. This and people constantly fail to realize their true roles in a TEAMmatch. People mainly just run around trying to get the most kills. And that is plain wrong, at least in the pvp model in this game.
You seem to be a smart player and good in strategies, and like the other guy who played a lot of the classic d&d themed games(who i happen to agree completely too), had a great insight in the game. I myself, played A LOT of the classics too (baldur's, icewind, nwn, TOEE, etc)
But I do agree with the guys who says that MAYBE the damage that EVERYONE does in pvp is just too high.
And to the guy who thinks its hard to make changes to pvp mechanics and leave pve alone, its clear to me that he knows nothing or close to nothing of programming,no offense meant. Even in a game like Eden Eternal, which is A LOT less comples than NW, they found a way to make people survive more in pvp (war mode). How you ask me? By simply multiplying their HP in PVP maps, so people were just harder to kill just by surviving more! I'm sure the DEVs have the potential to make an awesome work with that if they want to
My apologies for my not so good english, and sorry if I offended someone, twas not my intention!
You're crazy if you think GF is balanced. I had to reroll because GF is not wanted in dungeon groups and because they can be locked out 100% of their HP before even reacting by a TR/CW. Seriously, this game mainly has 3 classes right now that are viable and wanted in groups...PVP or PVE.
GF isn't bad in pvp after you get some gear. They have quite a bit of burst and lots of push to get people off astral shields.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
Man I couldnt agree more with your post. I, like you, think that the main problem with people in this game, is that they do not play as a TEAM. This and people constantly fail to realize their true roles in a TEAMmatch. People mainly just run around trying to get the most kills. And that is plain wrong, at least in the pvp model in this game.
You seem to be a smart player and good in strategies, and like the other guy who played a lot of the classic d&d themed games(who i happen to agree completely too), had a great insight in the game. I myself, played A LOT of the classics too (baldur's, icewind, nwn, TOEE, etc)
But I do agree with the guys who says that MAYBE the damage that EVERYONE does in pvp is just too high.
And to the guy who thinks its hard to make changes to pvp mechanics and leave pve alone, its clear to me that he knows nothing or close to nothing of programming,no offense meant. Even in a game like Eden Eternal, which is A LOT less comples than NW, they found a way to make people survive more in pvp (war mode). How you ask me? By simply multiplying their HP in PVP maps, so people were just harder to kill just by surviving more! I'm sure the DEVs have the potential to make an awesome work with that if they want to
My apologies for my not so good english, and sorry if I offended someone, twas not my intention!
I can agree on the fact that maybe overall damage is just too high. From my experiences though, that doesnt become a problem until you hit level 60 or close too that, because everyone gets such a strong boost from their gear and crystals. So maybe increase end game health in pvp. i agree completely
dude, I seen rogue running around with ****ty greens owning everybody, if your class needs the best gear in the game to even become somewhat decent there are some serious balancing issues at hand.
dude, I seen rogue running around with ****ty greens owning everybody, if your class needs the best gear in the game to even become somewhat decent there are some serious balancing issues at hand.
Why? Because a healer can't one shot a rogue, or a CW, or a GWF, or a GF? They're not supposed to be able to. That's the problem with PvP in a role playing game, everyone thinks their role is something different in PvP than what it's supposed to be.
Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
Why? Because a healer can't one shot a rogue, or a CW, or a GWF, or a GF? They're not supposed to be able to. That's the problem with PvP in a role playing game, everyone thinks their role is something different in PvP than what it's supposed to be.
that was kind of the purpose of my thread. to make people realize exactly what you just said.
that was kind of the purpose of my thread. to make people realize exactly what you just said.
I've read some of your responses and what you said and you either:
A) Never PvPed at 60 Simply just have know idea what you're talking about
Before I go on I would like to point out that it is a 5v5, what ever may seem fine on paper individually does not mean in practice it is going to work.
As pointed out Guardian Fighter (Even if you spec for pure defense) can die in a matter of 5 seconds to a TR, the Guard Meter is easy to drop in PvP then the TR will proceed to 2~3 shot the so called 'tank' and let us not forget! a TR can stop a GF from even blocking in the 1st place, so no need to drain the guard meter, but as you say.. no reason to complain. CW can kill this 'tank' just as quickly while CCing and lets not forget the ridiculous range.
A team with a cleric vs a team without a cleric (equal skill) the team with it is going to win, obviously balanced according to you.
GWF- Attacks are slower and easy to cancel by other classes which leads it to doing no damage. People saying they are fine are just creating instances where a GWF will perform well, but will that scenario ever become a reality in lvl 60 PvP? No.
If you've ever played enough by now you'll know CW, TR, and DC are the dominant classes in PvP, and a major issue is that sustain is too strong in PvP (team with cleric is pretty much going to win assuming they don't fail), and the damage is way too high while defense being nearly useless, as pointed out by many 1htkos are possible and even if it isn't a 1htko people are simply being 2~3 shotted/instagibbed by TRs and CWs, and cool downs in PvP given their current power is all relatively short.
Now, you may enjoy the whole 1~4 shot (or the kill your opponent in 2~5 seconds) but many people do not. If you've played enough MMOs with PvP you would know by now people who wish to PvP like fights that last a reasonable time, not too short or too long, there has to be a balance in power/defense, no reason any class should kill another by simply mashing buttons faster. Then the simple fact it's possible to balance PvP without it even impacting PvE.
Would also like to point out that your whole argument that kills do not matter, just taking points... well good luck taking points without killing your opponent first... so yes the ability to kill does matter.
Comments
see and that right there is exactly why i posted this thread. because people tryin to complain about certain things they don't like about the game are going to force the DEVS to nerf a class and render it useless. And then everyones going to hate playing that class. and it will ruin the game. If you nerf the rogues 1v1 potential it will literally be useless. It has nothing else. It's class basically survives on the fact that it has the highest 1v1 burst dps in the game. The GWF sacrifices that burst damage potential for increased survivablity (slight) and sustained dps or damage over a longer period of time.
I think you're playing it wrong because I personally don't have that problem. maybe your forgetting to cast your hots on yourself preheal? I hot myself then burst heal then focus heal with my right click. when all the heals stack like that you heal for a pretty insane amount pretty quickly.
( I've literally healed a GF under damage from all 5 opposing players through an entire rotation of cc and skills while my team was wiped, and had them all come back and wipe the opposing team. their fault for not focusing me, again lack of team coordination.)
1. Why are you in a position where the entire opposing team CAN stun lock you like that? As a CW for example, even in a 5v5 team fight I NEVER put myself in a spot where more than one maybe 2 ppl can touch me. of course unless its to make a play like ccing the opposing teams rogue or knockbacking someone off of my teammate whose dying. and No matter what I always leave myself with an escape plan. At least ONE dodge and either a daily or knockback to help myself get away. Meanwhile the GF is just soaking up everyones cd's and everyone else is making plays based off of that.
2. If you are a GF or rogue getting stun locked ( because you should be the only 2 that get in a position where that can happen to you) then that goes back to that there is no team coordination in this game. as a CW, my knockback has an 8 sec cd. The first thing I do when the teamfight starts is i look to see who is gettin the most pressure from the opposing team. if its the GF and hes not stun locked, great. But if its anyone else like the rogue, then I'm keeping myself at a safe distance and burning ALL of my cd's to peel everyone off of him. Meanwhile the cleric should be burning HIS cds to keep the rogue healthy and the gf and gwf should be in the opposing team focusing and stun locking a priority target like the opposing CW. Again all in the efforts of peeling for your squishy thats getting murdered.
3. If you're a GWF you shouldn't ever complain about this because you can literally press tab in the middle of a CC to break free and be immune to all incoming cc's PLUS make yourself tankier and heal yourself.
Another thing that I think someone mentioned earlier is I don't think people are bringing the right skills into PVP. They're coming into PVP with all their PVE HIGH DAMAGE SKILLS and being like hey im goin to kill everybody.
Seriously?
When i get ready for pvp, i literally go through my entire skill list, spells, dailies, at wills and buffs. and i ask myself, how will this kit effect my TEAMS performance. Should i be focusing on damage or crowd control. maybe mobility? or aoe buffs?
thats why my cleric is a str8 healer with pretty much no damaging spells.
my rogue is str8 damage with a little survival mixed in for single target assassinations
my gwf is focused on tankiness and mobility for securing obectives and cc abilities for peeling ( NOT DAMAGE )
my gf is str8 cc and tankiness buffs for maximum survivability while holding mid as well as peeling ability
and my cw has a str8 cc kit that gives it decent damage and maxes survivability.
my entire team is built around a help the TR and CW survive while holding objectives for as long as possible build, PRIORITIZING TR survival. why? BECAUSE HES THE DAMAGE.
I mean everyone right now wants their class to be a TR in pvp. just run around and kill everything.
Are you serious guys? I mean if we have it your way i guess neverwinter will never grow into gaining a possible competitive scene. it'll just be everyone run around killing everyone with no teamwork at all. Sounds AWESOME
You seem to be a smart player and good in strategies, and like the other guy who played a lot of the classic d&d themed games(who i happen to agree completely too), had a great insight in the game. I myself, played A LOT of the classics too (baldur's, icewind, nwn, TOEE, etc)
But I do agree with the guys who says that MAYBE the damage that EVERYONE does in pvp is just too high.
And to the guy who thinks its hard to make changes to pvp mechanics and leave pve alone, its clear to me that he knows nothing or close to nothing of programming,no offense meant. Even in a game like Eden Eternal, which is A LOT less comples than NW, they found a way to make people survive more in pvp (war mode). How you ask me? By simply multiplying their HP in PVP maps, so people were just harder to kill just by surviving more! I'm sure the DEVs have the potential to make an awesome work with that if they want to
My apologies for my not so good english, and sorry if I offended someone, twas not my intention!
GF isn't bad in pvp after you get some gear. They have quite a bit of burst and lots of push to get people off astral shields.
I can agree on the fact that maybe overall damage is just too high. From my experiences though, that doesnt become a problem until you hit level 60 or close too that, because everyone gets such a strong boost from their gear and crystals. So maybe increase end game health in pvp. i agree completely
dude, I seen rogue running around with ****ty greens owning everybody, if your class needs the best gear in the game to even become somewhat decent there are some serious balancing issues at hand.
Why? Because a healer can't one shot a rogue, or a CW, or a GWF, or a GF? They're not supposed to be able to. That's the problem with PvP in a role playing game, everyone thinks their role is something different in PvP than what it's supposed to be.
that was kind of the purpose of my thread. to make people realize exactly what you just said.
I've read some of your responses and what you said and you either:
A) Never PvPed at 60
Before I go on I would like to point out that it is a 5v5, what ever may seem fine on paper individually does not mean in practice it is going to work.
As pointed out Guardian Fighter (Even if you spec for pure defense) can die in a matter of 5 seconds to a TR, the Guard Meter is easy to drop in PvP then the TR will proceed to 2~3 shot the so called 'tank' and let us not forget! a TR can stop a GF from even blocking in the 1st place, so no need to drain the guard meter, but as you say.. no reason to complain. CW can kill this 'tank' just as quickly while CCing and lets not forget the ridiculous range.
A team with a cleric vs a team without a cleric (equal skill) the team with it is going to win, obviously balanced according to you.
GWF- Attacks are slower and easy to cancel by other classes which leads it to doing no damage. People saying they are fine are just creating instances where a GWF will perform well, but will that scenario ever become a reality in lvl 60 PvP? No.
If you've ever played enough by now you'll know CW, TR, and DC are the dominant classes in PvP, and a major issue is that sustain is too strong in PvP (team with cleric is pretty much going to win assuming they don't fail), and the damage is way too high while defense being nearly useless, as pointed out by many 1htkos are possible and even if it isn't a 1htko people are simply being 2~3 shotted/instagibbed by TRs and CWs, and cool downs in PvP given their current power is all relatively short.
Now, you may enjoy the whole 1~4 shot (or the kill your opponent in 2~5 seconds) but many people do not. If you've played enough MMOs with PvP you would know by now people who wish to PvP like fights that last a reasonable time, not too short or too long, there has to be a balance in power/defense, no reason any class should kill another by simply mashing buttons faster. Then the simple fact it's possible to balance PvP without it even impacting PvE.
Would also like to point out that your whole argument that kills do not matter, just taking points... well good luck taking points without killing your opponent first... so yes the ability to kill does matter.