Am I the only one that thought this was some terrible LoL themed post? Think the OP is playing the wrong game. Uses the words teamfight, ADC, and others too often. Go back to LoL.
OP - Well articulated post, but the classes are designed around PVE and not PVP. That is the eternal struggle for game designers and it doesn't look like PW has even begun to think about how they are going to deal with that situation. The mega-control and cannon classes are dominating right now because they are designed for specific roles against MOBS and not other players. If PW doesn't start to work on the PVP aspect VERY soon, PVP is going to become all about random or premade groups of TRs and CWs battling it out.
PW really should have factored this into the basic game design, but they were too busy designing the greatest Auction House of all time, oh wait........
People get mad in PvP (yes I get put on ignore and then spammed with hate messages) because they can't just 1 v 1 any class at any given time and win over and over again...
PvP comes down to dodging and blocking... if a rouge runs up to a CW and the CW dodges it's lights out for the rouge. If the rouge dodges the CW then that CW is dead. That isn't taking dalies into account.
Tanks generally suck at PvP because they think they should be back capping and going 1 v 3 instead of TANKING MID with the cleric!
GFW's are a perma stun lock nightmare if they catch you with a single stun and have any idea how to play that class then you're dead... you simply cannot get out of the stun luck, so don't let them hit you and you will win that fight... or at least stay alive while they run away. They are more about territory control and not 1 v 1. Get caught out of position by a GFW and you just died... Their true power comes from not letting you get close to them. Put them on a point, so rouges and CW's can't cap with ease.
GF are a complete pain in the *** because it's all about point control and they can take damage from you longer than they will be waiting for that respawn timer. If they focus on tanking points then they become a headache.
Clerics over any other class are the game changers... You know that rouge who is insanely OP and you can't kill and can't understand why your full combo just wont drop him? Because the cleric is keeping him alive and in truth that rouge isn't really that good. He just has a massive HP pool. It is like trying to challenge somebody who just ran over a health pot on the map and expecting to win... why even bother fighting that against the odds? You know that CW you got to 1% HP, but got away with a knockback spell and came back with full HP 6 seconds later, then threw out some CC, ended up sending you back to the camp fire in a single combo? Sucks when you didn't even see it coming doesn't it? Well thank the cleric for that because when their team runs away they're going to heal up to full in less time than it would take them to find a pot on the map or wait out the 2 minute cooldown on pots. When you catch the cleric solo you better hope you dodge their combo or they can burst down a rouge or CW with ease. If they die chances are they held the point for longer than they will spend waiting for that respawn timer to hit 0...
PvP has been a lot better lately with actually having the queue pop for 1 of each roll... it doesn't happen all the time, but when it does the teams with PvP builds/skill usually take it without much of a hassle... The old PvP was horrible... sometimes you would end up against 2 clerics and 3 rouges and be getting destroyed... you would come close to killing one and they would run away, heal up and be in your face while you were fighting the cleric or the other rouge...
The main issue I see in PvP is people thinking they can take their pure PvE builds, toss them into a PvP environment and have as much if not more success against players. It doesn't work like that! I play a CW and some rouges completely dominate me, but that is rare because a lot of them are weak as hell with their PvE builds. Same for GFW's.... run into a GFW with a PvP build and I can't kill him unless my daily is up. Even then if it doesn't crit or he blocks it, I will end up kiting him out just for a kill. That entire time he is controlling the point because I simply cannot burst him down fast enough, my CC doesn't work and 1 stun landed from him = me perma stun locked to death. I would rather fight a rouge or CW over a cleric/GF/GFW because I know I'm either taking that point in less than 10 seconds or I'm dead. Those 3 classes can stall a capture to the point their kill death ratios are in the negative and they're still winning by a land slide.
Most of the issues I see from people are NOT about balance, but more so: why isn't my character about to duel better?
If people play their classes to their strengths for WINNING the round (stop ignoring capture points) then a lot less QQ will be going on around here. If you want to play a duelist go roll a rouge, if you want to play a CC machine then go roll a CW, If you want to tank damage and capture points then roll a tank, if you want to be CC immune with a built in perma stun then roll a GFW and if you would like to heal everything, control capture points, have great CC and good burst then go roll a cleric.
TLDR: stop trying to play every single class like a duelist while expecting to win every single fight against odds. I play a fair share of PvP and I can tell you the biggest balance issues are from the players taking horrible power set ups and just playing poorly.
Really, do share how they are going to reduce damage on some classes for PvP, or CC, or defensive capabilities w/out gimping them for PvE? The short answer is, they're not. The long answer is, they're not, because in order to "fix" the problems, they have to alter the skills, and altering the skills changes them for PvE every bit as much as it does for PvP. Sorry, you can't solo the opposing group on your cleric, an example only, but you're not meant to.
Reads as: I have nothing to add, so you're OP.
Really, do you know more about the mechanics from a game that you not created? Why do you think that devs can't balance PVP without ruining PVP?
I like the way you roll OP, although now I don't know about rolling a GWF alt (I usually like to take the perceived "weakest" class as a sort of challenge).
Did want to add that I think mounts should be removed from PvP though. To add to what has already been said, there is a huge advantage when one side can reinforce the battle quicker. But then again, I also wish PvP gear was generic.
Really, do you know more about the mechanics from a game that you not created?
Apparently you seem to think you know better than I, so as I asked in the post, share how they're going to do it. I laid out my opinion on the matter fairly plainly, and so far your argument equals "nuh uh". So share some insight into how they can "fix" PvP w/out gimping PvE.
Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
Learn to block... Are you mentally <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>? If you think someone playing gf at 60 doesn't know how to block then I think you should stop typing in the forums.
You can't "block" when a rogue throws down smoke or when being silenced or when CW is CC'ing you for seconds. Dont act like I don't know how to play my GF in pvp *****.
man you must realy suck at pvp. no wonder you are that mad, i feel sorry for you bro.
Apparently you seem to think you know better than I, so as I asked in the post, share how they're going to do it. I laid out my opinion on the matter fairly plainly, and so far your argument equals "nuh uh". So share some insight into how they can "fix" PvP w/out gimping PvE.
They could diminish damage and cc on pvp battles, and let them as they are now on PVE. Game instance my friend (PVP battles are game instances in this game), once you enter on pvp your skills behaviors are changed, and once you leave they're behave like their normal states.
They could diminish damage and cc on pvp battles, and let them as they are now on PVE. Game instance my friend (PVP battles are game instances), once you enter on pvp your skills behaviors are changed, and once you leave they're behave like their normal states.
Satisfied?
No, but that's a hell of a lot better than "nuh uh". From here, we can actually discuss things, from the other it's "uh, what".
So what happens when this system bugs, like not being able to leave your group once you leave the instance? What's the fix? Removing the other fix? You see, reading the OP's post, I can see a lot of what he's talking about, and frankly, having played games with a larger focus on group PvP, I can see a lot of people doing as somebody else pointed out, trying to solo everyone, and not being able to because the other team is actually playing as a team, instead of a bunch of cowboys trying to do everything on their own. I've seen it enough times to know it happens, and to know that the primary "offenders" are the ones that are always quickest with "I can't beat class <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, so they're OP", even when the class they can't beat is the class specifically designed to kill them. So if they introduce an equivalent to Arcane Archers, are CWs going to be spouting that they are OP because they can kill CWs effectively? Will the Archer toon be crying that CWs can kill them if that's the way it works?
Nerfing isn't the answer, learning to play as a team is.
Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
Am I the only one that thought this was some terrible LoL themed post? Think the OP is playing the wrong game. Uses the words teamfight, ADC, and others too often. Go back to LoL.
Not sure if league themed or some guy who has no idea what level 60 combat is about. The fact he said a cleric cannot kill anybody just makes me realize he has no idea what he's talking about. I have been bursted down by clerics in less than 6 seconds all because I miss timed a dodge after they dodged my CC.
better balance i never saw in any game so far,i will admit that guardian figther is a little underpower but other classes are fine.People say that Rogues are OP and that can 1 shot u,first of all that is not truth,they need dally skills to do that much strong dmg and dally is not avaible all time,rogue is also ment to do best dmg in game since he has no def,no heal,no serious control spells.Other people says that SW is OP but its not,hes best in crowd control which is ment to be but can be easy killed by rogues,and at the end,our highest defense and shield users are no OP if u strike them from behind...stop complain already,game is vary well balanced and only guardians have reason to complain cause they are weakest.Healers are supposed to heal and not deal dmg and kill people so quit with this already.
No, but that's a hell of a lot better than "nuh uh". From here, we can actually discuss things, from the other it's "uh, what".
So what happens when this system bugs, like not being able to leave your group once you leave the instance? What's the fix? Removing the other fix? You see, reading the OP's post, I can see a lot of what he's talking about, and frankly, having played games with a larger focus on group PvP, I can see a lot of people doing as somebody else pointed out, trying to solo everyone, and not being able to because the other team is actually playing as a team, instead of a bunch of cowboys trying to do everything on their own. I've seen it enough times to know it happens, and to know that the primary "offenders" are the ones that are always quickest with "I can't beat class <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, so they're OP", even when the class they can't beat is the class specifically designed to kill them. So if they introduce an equivalent to Arcane Archers, are CWs going to be spouting that they are OP because they can kill CWs effectively? Will the Archer toon be crying that CWs can kill them if that's the way it works?
Nerfing isn't the answer, learning to play as a team is.
Leaving an instance and leaving a party are completely different procedures...This is why you still remain in the party once you exit from pvp battles. The skills could change their states on-the-fly once you enter or leave an pvp instance (in this game could be two states for each skill, each one with diminished/changed behavior, one for PVP and one for PVE), independently from the group you're, stuck or not. You can be bugged and can't leave the group, but your skills behavior changes when you leave the arena.
This is a solution between many imo, the devs can and maybe will think about others.
But one thing we need urgently is a Test Server like WoW and D3 ones. This should avoid so many problems in the future. You should import your main character to the Test Server and after that find and exploit something, but could you keep the gears you find exploiting things on a Test Server? You couldn't.
I want to apologize if I was rude with you, that wasn't my truly intention on my previous posts...
Am I the only one that thought this was some terrible LoL themed post? Think the OP is playing the wrong game. Uses the words teamfight, ADC, and others too often. Go back to LoL.
Okay , wtf? The word "teamfight" DEFINES dungeons and dragon. Are you that clueless? Are you that stupid? Yes you are sir. yes you are....
And to whoever said i picked "op" class, i only picked a rogue because i NEVER pick a rogue. In all previous Nwn titles or even baldurs gate i picked wizards or rangers. I thought it'd be fun. And he is not so op as you complain them to be. My friend who's as much a gamer as I am picked a cleric and he does such an amazing score he finishes second if not first Just really learn to play. Learn to dodge, learn to stack your items, learn to stack your skills and feats. And do not look at your gear score. it's like looking at your weight instead of your mirror to see if you're muscled. You can be muscled heavy or fat heavy, higher gear score doesn't mean better gear.
Please please please stop complaining that pvp is unbalanced and that characters need to be nerfed or buffed right now. You are legitimately going to ruin the game. The problem right now isn't that certain classes are overpowered or underpowered. The problem right now is that there is currently no meta.
This games pvp is set up in a 5v5 arena style format. The main objective in the game is to control domination points, not to get kills. What this does is it gives pvp the potential to have extreme team coordination. That gives each individual class/ character a role to accomplish in order to bring your team success. Right now considering the game has only been out for a short time, everyones mentality is the same no matter what character they play. It's "run to taken objectives and get as many kills as possible while doing so." But the thing is situationally not all of the classes are made to do that. Let's go over class personal objectives in pvp so that we can be on the same page. These are all my opinions based off of my personal experiences playing every class.
Objectives for classes
Rogue- Everyone is saying that the rogue is overpowered right now because he does way to much single target damage. What people aren't realizing is that was what the rogue is DESIGNED to do. The rogue is the attack damage carry of neverwinter. In a team fight situation, the rogues job is to focus priority targets such as the opposing teams rogue or control wizard. The rogue should bounce back and forth between their domination point and middle taking out targets as it goes. And that right there is exactly why people think rogues are overpowered right now in pvp. Because in a chaotic situation with no coordination, it's a glass cannon winning 1v1 situations over and over.
Control Wizard- Another class that everyone feels is overpowered. Their reasoning is because of the amount of survivability the control wizard has coupled with his damage potential and crowd control. But again look at the big picture. The control wizard is your magic damage carry of neverwinter. With the potential to do aoe crowd controls and damage, as well as decent single target burst damage, the control wizard is perfect for taking out high priority targets such as the opposing rogue/ control wizard. The control wizard also has the potential lead teams through fights by prioritizing targets with its spells. Like the rogue, the control wizard should be bouncing between their domination point and middle, taking out targets as it goes.
Cleric- From what I've heard, the community feels that clerics are balanced. I feel that this is a result of the fact that clerics do mediocre damage, can focus on sustaining people, and sustain themselves making them tanky. When i personally play cleric, I like to go full healer. But tapping into the damaging spells, you can pull off some decent damage potential with a cleric. Now when clerics end up in a 1v1 situation and lose to a rogue or mage, WHAT THE HELL DID U EXPECT? Do u legitimately feel that a cleric should beat a rogue or wizard in a 1v1 situation? And if you do, what the hell is wrong with you? As a full healing cleric, when I see a rogue with full health coming onto my domination point, I just keep myself sustained with heals while yelling at my teammates to come help me. But if nobody comes, eventually I'll get taken out. And that's the way it should be. In a teamfight situation, I'm sustaining my entire team with heals and helping to do some damage to priority targets. As a cleric, you're basically a control wizard sacrificing low cooldown crowd control spells for heals, as well as some damage. STAY WITH YOUR TEAMMATES.
Guardian Fighter- The tank. Another class that the community seems to be saying is balanced. As a guardian fighter in pvp, your main role is to hold objectives. Guardian fighters with their immense defense can stay contesting an objective for a long time. That makes them ideal for holding mid. They can sit mid while their team is wiping and wait for them to come back all the while just contesting the objective. Also as a guardian fighter, you can peel rogues or slayers off your carries, or help to stunlock the mage all the while holding your objective. In a 1v1 situation, the guardian fighter is actually pretty strong, and as I said earlier can sustain against its enemy while waiting for its teammates to come assist. Since its mostly a defensive class, that's what it should prioritize. DEFENSE. Mid as a top priority holding it while your teammates bounce between your base and mid.
Great Weapon Fighter- This is my favorite class to play by far. With my great weapon fighter I have literally won about 90% of my non-premade pvp matches no exaggeration. Now reading that, I almost guarantee almost every single one of you laughed or doubted me. That's because the community feels that the great weapon fighter is underpowered. Everyone feels that the great weapon fighter needs to be buffed. I'm here telling you that that's because you're playing it wrong. The great weapon fighter is basically the bruiser of your team. Sacrificing high sustainable damage for mediocre sustain with finishing bursts and single target crowd control is what you have with your great weapon fighter. In a teamfight situation, he helps to offtank some of the damage through his tab power and brings a little damage to the table. But the great weapon fighters real potential lies in his ability to contest the opposing team's base. I've literally laughed as I've beaten a ridiculous amount of games through this method. Why is the great weapon fighter so good at this? Let me explain.
The great weapon fighter has the highest mobility of all the classes. He gains this through sacrificing his ability to dodge. This makes the great weapon fighter almost impossible to catch. When you start to get low, you just say well hey i'm going to press tab, be immune to your crowd controls, use my jump to clear a huge gap, and then sprint ridiculously far away from you, either to a potion or to my cleric. This is literally step by step how i play my great weapon fighter. I just sit in the opposing teams base constantly holding it or contesting it. If one person comes to fight me then they're are permanently stuck having to deal with me, helping to relieve the pressure on my teams base (which by the way is the easiest to gain control of again because all 4 teammates respawn close to it).
I just fight them until i get low or kill them, then run and grab a pot so i can head back and continue to hold their base. Now if multiple people come to take me down, even if all 5 come to take me down, i use my daily to buy myself time by jumping into the air, and continue to hold and take damage until i get low, and then juke all 5 of them for a potion. Meanwhile since all 5 people are wasting their time trying to kill me, my team has taken our base and mid and is pushing into the opposing team's base to assist me in controlling the whole map. Using this method my score is usually pretty low on the score chart, but my win to loss ratio is stupid ridiculous. Now if they were to buff the great weapon fighters damage? lol I'd probably never lose a pvp match again.
So what I'm trying to make clear here is that I personally feel that all of the classes in this game are balanced. Like I said it's not that classes are imbalanced, but that there hasn't been a meta developed for the game yet. Please stop complaining about buffing or nerfing classes because you are going to ruin the game if you continue to do that. Rogues are going to end up being useless, or great weapon fighters are going to end up being way to strong, etc. If there is anything you would like to discuss I'm more than happy to do that with you and please comment below. Also if you would like me to defend my case through visual means, feel free to watch my stream at:
twitch.tv/finallyfaded
Hit me up with a comment and then I'll answer your question/ show you in game proof through via livestream. As far as cryptic studios or perfect world is concerned, there are a few things I would like to suggest if I could get one of you to comment on here. Things that I feel would make pvp lean towards having a stronger meta and help this game get into the competitive scene. :cool: thanks guys!
I read your post, it seems like you are pretty confident about what you're saying, it sounds like you got a lot of experiences on your class GWF. But then I thought you must be at least reach to the max lvl to have all the information to prove your points.
this thread should be locked. OP isn't being helpful, and honestly, he's done nothing but troll and rage on anyone disagreeing with his flawed conjecture. every time i read his posts, i die a little.
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eidamaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
this thread should be locked. OP isn't being helpful, and honestly, he's done nothing but troll and rage on anyone disagreeing with his flawed conjecture. every time i read his posts, i die a little.
but as far as your post, if that's how you feel, then why play? i mean why even post in here? why read my thread?
late reply, thanks mate. I somewhat enjoy the game so far and i'm still playing on false hope that it'll get better in the future. For however long that lasts for.
Common sense is hard to come by around here it seems..
I read your post, it seems like you are pretty confident about what you're saying, it sounds like you got a lot of experiences on your class GWF. But then I thought you must be at least reach to the max lvl to have all the information to prove your points.
Hey guys sry for not responding to all your posts. Had a ridiculously long work day so haven't had an opportunity to get back to everyone.
Usagi you're right I'm not max level with my GWF. I do have a level 60 CW and a level 55 Cleric. It's just taking me a while to get all 5 classes up to 60. Right now my GWF is currently at level 42. At least from my personal experiences so far I have been successful with him. Who knows though, maybe at 60 he'll get extremely weaker. I really can't say until i reach that point. But from what I've heard so far, as i get closer to 60 I get closer to stun locking people. And that to me sounds like it will just improve my GWF significantly
Not sure if league themed or some guy who has no idea what level 60 combat is about. The fact he said a cleric cannot kill anybody just makes me realize he has no idea what he's talking about. I have been bursted down by clerics in less than 6 seconds all because I miss timed a dodge after they dodged my CC.
This post wasn't meant to be LoL themed. It's true that I used to play league. I quit though, that game isn't fun. Just causes rage and frustration and a LOT of hours sitting and trying to bump my elo lol.
But since we're on the topic of league why not use that as a reference. League is an excellent example because it is geared towards teamwork and taking objectives whether backdooring towers or pushing lanes to gain map control. It's about positioning, focusing down targets, and team coordination. And all of these factors are lacking right now in my opinion. Nobody in neverwinter pvp works together (or rarely does). Everyone is just focused on being on top of the kill charts with the least amount of deaths. There is no coordination. Its like when league first came out and everyone ran everywhere trying to kill everybody to get FED and win. Try doin that nowadayz in ranked. Your team will verbally slaughter you and report you for trolling. Why? because there's a meta in place now. And the meta is so strong that it's become an expectation
Not to mention people are dual boxing clerics and healing themselves completely in matches, which I think is an exploit and should be bannable.
I personally think that pvp should just be set up with one of each class. Almost like dungeon queuing. except right now you can get stacks of everything.
maybe have 2 pvp instance types. One for queuing with friends where you could run 5 of one class if you'd like. and one for serious tournament style play. That would prevent situations like going against 3 rogues ( which honestly is stupidly unbalanced). I mean how could you have a pvp system and call it balanced when you have one team with 3 healers a tank and one dps vs 3 dps a healer and a tank?
Just some suggestions to improve, feel free to give me feedback
this thread should be locked. OP isn't being helpful, and honestly, he's done nothing but troll and rage on anyone disagreeing with his flawed conjecture. every time i read his posts, i die a little.
I really haven't done anything to troll i dont think 0.o?
As far as raging goes i admit i did a little. I just didn't expect to sit at my computer typing my well thought out opinion into a forum thread for a couple hours to end up with my instantly getting verbally attacked by the community instead of discussed. Which is what i originally intended to do. but its been a day and I've simmered so i apologize if I came off rude and argumentative ( as well as maybe a little biased as i was trying to defend my position =/ )
People get mad in PvP (yes I get put on ignore and then spammed with hate messages) because they can't just 1 v 1 any class at any given time and win over and over again...
PvP comes down to dodging and blocking... if a rouge runs up to a CW and the CW dodges it's lights out for the rouge. If the rouge dodges the CW then that CW is dead. That isn't taking dalies into account.
Tanks generally suck at PvP because they think they should be back capping and going 1 v 3 instead of TANKING MID with the cleric!
GFW's are a perma stun lock nightmare if they catch you with a single stun and have any idea how to play that class then you're dead... you simply cannot get out of the stun luck, so don't let them hit you and you will win that fight... or at least stay alive while they run away. They are more about territory control and not 1 v 1. Get caught out of position by a GFW and you just died... Their true power comes from not letting you get close to them. Put them on a point, so rouges and CW's can't cap with ease.
GF are a complete pain in the *** because it's all about point control and they can take damage from you longer than they will be waiting for that respawn timer. If they focus on tanking points then they become a headache.
Clerics over any other class are the game changers... You know that rouge who is insanely OP and you can't kill and can't understand why your full combo just wont drop him? Because the cleric is keeping him alive and in truth that rouge isn't really that good. He just has a massive HP pool. It is like trying to challenge somebody who just ran over a health pot on the map and expecting to win... why even bother fighting that against the odds? You know that CW you got to 1% HP, but got away with a knockback spell and came back with full HP 6 seconds later, then threw out some CC, ended up sending you back to the camp fire in a single combo? Sucks when you didn't even see it coming doesn't it? Well thank the cleric for that because when their team runs away they're going to heal up to full in less time than it would take them to find a pot on the map or wait out the 2 minute cooldown on pots. When you catch the cleric solo you better hope you dodge their combo or they can burst down a rouge or CW with ease. If they die chances are they held the point for longer than they will spend waiting for that respawn timer to hit 0...
PvP has been a lot better lately with actually having the queue pop for 1 of each roll... it doesn't happen all the time, but when it does the teams with PvP builds/skill usually take it without much of a hassle... The old PvP was horrible... sometimes you would end up against 2 clerics and 3 rouges and be getting destroyed... you would come close to killing one and they would run away, heal up and be in your face while you were fighting the cleric or the other rouge...
The main issue I see in PvP is people thinking they can take their pure PvE builds, toss them into a PvP environment and have as much if not more success against players. It doesn't work like that! I play a CW and some rouges completely dominate me, but that is rare because a lot of them are weak as hell with their PvE builds. Same for GFW's.... run into a GFW with a PvP build and I can't kill him unless my daily is up. Even then if it doesn't crit or he blocks it, I will end up kiting him out just for a kill. That entire time he is controlling the point because I simply cannot burst him down fast enough, my CC doesn't work and 1 stun landed from him = me perma stun locked to death. I would rather fight a rouge or CW over a cleric/GF/GFW because I know I'm either taking that point in less than 10 seconds or I'm dead. Those 3 classes can stall a capture to the point their kill death ratios are in the negative and they're still winning by a land slide.
Most of the issues I see from people are NOT about balance, but more so: why isn't my character about to duel better?
If people play their classes to their strengths for WINNING the round (stop ignoring capture points) then a lot less QQ will be going on around here. If you want to play a duelist go roll a rouge, if you want to play a CC machine then go roll a CW, If you want to tank damage and capture points then roll a tank, if you want to be CC immune with a built in perma stun then roll a GFW and if you would like to heal everything, control capture points, have great CC and good burst then go roll a cleric.
TLDR: stop trying to play every single class like a duelist while expecting to win every single fight against odds. I play a fair share of PvP and I can tell you the biggest balance issues are from the players taking horrible power set ups and just playing poorly.
THIS thread is literarly making my brain bleed. Honestly do you need a picture? My nose is bleeding.
How can people be so stupid (waiting for an admin to edit that)? HOW can they?
To the original poster: You made a thread i wanted to make, 10 times better. Bravo my friend. I'm gonna pm you my in game name so you can add me. :-)
Ok the OP described everything perfectly but people are playing this game the wrong way and blame it on the devs. I've played RPGS and All nwn and nwn2 , and only a couple of MMOS. This is propably why I am good at this DnD kind-of style game. Although i have less experience in MMOS, i have what i like to call "basic rpg philosophy". Having played hardcore DnD games have greatly helped my gamestyle too. I can't imagine most of you people here being able to handle even the tutorial of the older rpg games if you can't understand this SIMPLE game.
Alright let's start. I'm not gonna exactly teach you HOW to play, I'm just gonna share my personal experience and point out wrong stuff people do all the time.
For starters I play a TR. I'm not the best TR around, but i've seen plenty who suck. i am level 34? And i made a level 47 TR in a guild that did not even know what Armor Penetration is. Bragged about his high critical chance, and whinned about his low crit damage. How do you expect to play this game correctly if you do not even BOTHER to hover your mouse over the stats to see what they do. What does recovery do? What does life steal do? Why have 3 lifesteal items and 3 critical items and 2 armor penetration items? A little of all is bad. A lot of 2 is great! Moving on.
PvP like the OP said is about holding points. I allways finish first with around 5k points, even if i get slaughtered. I've lost matches were my team had the most kills and i've won matches we were getting our butt kicked? How? it's not about fighting it's about taking control points. Control wizards have an awesome spell that blows you away. If you're taking a point as a CW and you're 95% and someone comes all you have to do is blow him away and the point is yours. NO need to kill him? Stop getting OUT of the circle while fighting the percentage if falling. Same goes for all players. All you have to do is take points.
As a TR i've seen GF that i could kill with 2 blows. And others that i could not kill once throught the game. I've seen my *** getting kicked from GWF hard (and it makes sense, it IS a barbarian class). It's about how you play. I've seen wizards spamming their abilities instead of timing them so a combination of 3 +3 +2 (s) of control effects only lasts about 4 seconds..this is bad..
I've seen wizards rooting a target in the ground, me and another rogue are about to deal insane damage to him with blades of fury, and he just blows the target away. WHY? WHY? You do not have to spam spells like crezi and deal damage, you have to use your brain.
All classes are fine, all you have to do is learn to play. And someone here dared to say that TR has more control than CW. People come ON.
I'm doing 30-39 level pvps and people are still unaware their base is being taken. I mean just learn to play please, it's an action based mmo and it's pretty simple. i mean i don't know what else to say. i feel bad for the devs. They get so much **** they do not deserve.
P.S i just love having GWF and GF in my team...much better than 1 rogue 2 clerics 2 wizards..so much better
They should optimize Matchmaking filtering by both level and GS
PS.: Do you know that calling 'em noobs don't make you better than them right? Please watch your manners
That would definitely help alot of people simmer. Because I can understand the frustration of being outgeared in pvp. I have to deal with that myself. Once i die to the heavily geared person tho, I just spend the rest of the game avoiding them or confronting them when my team offers me great positioning and peels.
Yet I've seen several in the 50 lvl PVp brackets kill players while being targeted by two enemy players, then still escaping with at least 1/4 health. How can that be? I've fought them 1v1 with my CW, dropped every nuke I have on them and watch them still get away with half health. Explain that to me. My cousin plays a GWF and he is an above average player and can't stand toe to toe with one because for some reason, this so called glass cannon class outlasts him!? Nah bro, they need their base health cut by at least 20%.
It could be spell timing. I've seen so many CW's just spam all their nukes at once while the rogue just rolls out of the first two and then pops their cc immunity. its stupid. I always start with my iceball into a rogue. then i look for the dodge. if they get hit i choke them in the midst of the stun, wait 1 sec, then slam them prone with the ice knife. As they lay there i then blow them away with my wind rinse and repeat. if they didnt get hit from my ice ball cause they dodged then i wait for them to attack me and shift out. i then go for choke. if that gets dodged again then again i wait for attack and shift out. now the rogues used up his 2 dodges and is out of stamina while i still have 1 dodge since CWs have 3 and my knockback or my knockdown. Usually save the knockback for emergency situations. and then if anyone else shows up to ruin the day and make it a 2v1 against me, i throw out my daily that ive been saving ( either the knockback ice blast if theyre on top of me or the orb in front of my escape path to make them directly have to walk through it to get to me) and escape.
Comments
PW really should have factored this into the basic game design, but they were too busy designing the greatest Auction House of all time, oh wait........
PvP comes down to dodging and blocking... if a rouge runs up to a CW and the CW dodges it's lights out for the rouge. If the rouge dodges the CW then that CW is dead. That isn't taking dalies into account.
Tanks generally suck at PvP because they think they should be back capping and going 1 v 3 instead of TANKING MID with the cleric!
GFW's are a perma stun lock nightmare if they catch you with a single stun and have any idea how to play that class then you're dead... you simply cannot get out of the stun luck, so don't let them hit you and you will win that fight... or at least stay alive while they run away. They are more about territory control and not 1 v 1. Get caught out of position by a GFW and you just died... Their true power comes from not letting you get close to them. Put them on a point, so rouges and CW's can't cap with ease.
GF are a complete pain in the *** because it's all about point control and they can take damage from you longer than they will be waiting for that respawn timer. If they focus on tanking points then they become a headache.
Clerics over any other class are the game changers... You know that rouge who is insanely OP and you can't kill and can't understand why your full combo just wont drop him? Because the cleric is keeping him alive and in truth that rouge isn't really that good. He just has a massive HP pool. It is like trying to challenge somebody who just ran over a health pot on the map and expecting to win... why even bother fighting that against the odds? You know that CW you got to 1% HP, but got away with a knockback spell and came back with full HP 6 seconds later, then threw out some CC, ended up sending you back to the camp fire in a single combo? Sucks when you didn't even see it coming doesn't it? Well thank the cleric for that because when their team runs away they're going to heal up to full in less time than it would take them to find a pot on the map or wait out the 2 minute cooldown on pots. When you catch the cleric solo you better hope you dodge their combo or they can burst down a rouge or CW with ease. If they die chances are they held the point for longer than they will spend waiting for that respawn timer to hit 0...
PvP has been a lot better lately with actually having the queue pop for 1 of each roll... it doesn't happen all the time, but when it does the teams with PvP builds/skill usually take it without much of a hassle... The old PvP was horrible... sometimes you would end up against 2 clerics and 3 rouges and be getting destroyed... you would come close to killing one and they would run away, heal up and be in your face while you were fighting the cleric or the other rouge...
The main issue I see in PvP is people thinking they can take their pure PvE builds, toss them into a PvP environment and have as much if not more success against players. It doesn't work like that! I play a CW and some rouges completely dominate me, but that is rare because a lot of them are weak as hell with their PvE builds. Same for GFW's.... run into a GFW with a PvP build and I can't kill him unless my daily is up. Even then if it doesn't crit or he blocks it, I will end up kiting him out just for a kill. That entire time he is controlling the point because I simply cannot burst him down fast enough, my CC doesn't work and 1 stun landed from him = me perma stun locked to death. I would rather fight a rouge or CW over a cleric/GF/GFW because I know I'm either taking that point in less than 10 seconds or I'm dead. Those 3 classes can stall a capture to the point their kill death ratios are in the negative and they're still winning by a land slide.
Most of the issues I see from people are NOT about balance, but more so: why isn't my character about to duel better?
If people play their classes to their strengths for WINNING the round (stop ignoring capture points) then a lot less QQ will be going on around here. If you want to play a duelist go roll a rouge, if you want to play a CC machine then go roll a CW, If you want to tank damage and capture points then roll a tank, if you want to be CC immune with a built in perma stun then roll a GFW and if you would like to heal everything, control capture points, have great CC and good burst then go roll a cleric.
TLDR: stop trying to play every single class like a duelist while expecting to win every single fight against odds. I play a fair share of PvP and I can tell you the biggest balance issues are from the players taking horrible power set ups and just playing poorly.
Really, do you know more about the mechanics from a game that you not created? Why do you think that devs can't balance PVP without ruining PVP?
Did want to add that I think mounts should be removed from PvP though. To add to what has already been said, there is a huge advantage when one side can reinforce the battle quicker. But then again, I also wish PvP gear was generic.
Apparently you seem to think you know better than I, so as I asked in the post, share how they're going to do it. I laid out my opinion on the matter fairly plainly, and so far your argument equals "nuh uh". So share some insight into how they can "fix" PvP w/out gimping PvE.
man you must realy suck at pvp. no wonder you are that mad, i feel sorry for you bro.
They could diminish damage and cc on pvp battles, and let them as they are now on PVE. Game instance my friend (PVP battles are game instances in this game), once you enter on pvp your skills behaviors are changed, and once you leave they're behave like their normal states.
Satisfied?
No, but that's a hell of a lot better than "nuh uh". From here, we can actually discuss things, from the other it's "uh, what".
So what happens when this system bugs, like not being able to leave your group once you leave the instance? What's the fix? Removing the other fix? You see, reading the OP's post, I can see a lot of what he's talking about, and frankly, having played games with a larger focus on group PvP, I can see a lot of people doing as somebody else pointed out, trying to solo everyone, and not being able to because the other team is actually playing as a team, instead of a bunch of cowboys trying to do everything on their own. I've seen it enough times to know it happens, and to know that the primary "offenders" are the ones that are always quickest with "I can't beat class <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, so they're OP", even when the class they can't beat is the class specifically designed to kill them. So if they introduce an equivalent to Arcane Archers, are CWs going to be spouting that they are OP because they can kill CWs effectively? Will the Archer toon be crying that CWs can kill them if that's the way it works?
Nerfing isn't the answer, learning to play as a team is.
Not sure if league themed or some guy who has no idea what level 60 combat is about. The fact he said a cleric cannot kill anybody just makes me realize he has no idea what he's talking about. I have been bursted down by clerics in less than 6 seconds all because I miss timed a dodge after they dodged my CC.
Leaving an instance and leaving a party are completely different procedures...This is why you still remain in the party once you exit from pvp battles. The skills could change their states on-the-fly once you enter or leave an pvp instance (in this game could be two states for each skill, each one with diminished/changed behavior, one for PVP and one for PVE), independently from the group you're, stuck or not. You can be bugged and can't leave the group, but your skills behavior changes when you leave the arena.
This is a solution between many imo, the devs can and maybe will think about others.
But one thing we need urgently is a Test Server like WoW and D3 ones. This should avoid so many problems in the future. You should import your main character to the Test Server and after that find and exploit something, but could you keep the gears you find exploiting things on a Test Server? You couldn't.
I want to apologize if I was rude with you, that wasn't my truly intention on my previous posts...
Okay , wtf? The word "teamfight" DEFINES dungeons and dragon. Are you that clueless? Are you that stupid? Yes you are sir. yes you are....
And to whoever said i picked "op" class, i only picked a rogue because i NEVER pick a rogue. In all previous Nwn titles or even baldurs gate i picked wizards or rangers. I thought it'd be fun. And he is not so op as you complain them to be. My friend who's as much a gamer as I am picked a cleric and he does such an amazing score he finishes second if not first
I read your post, it seems like you are pretty confident about what you're saying, it sounds like you got a lot of experiences on your class GWF. But then I thought you must be at least reach to the max lvl to have all the information to prove your points.
Not to mention people are dual boxing clerics and healing themselves completely in matches, which I think is an exploit and should be bannable.
So quit reading them & live longer >.>
It's a well thought out post imho.
> http://mopp4.net/ <
late reply, thanks mate. I somewhat enjoy the game so far and i'm still playing on false hope that it'll get better in the future. For however long that lasts for.
Hey guys sry for not responding to all your posts. Had a ridiculously long work day so haven't had an opportunity to get back to everyone.
Usagi you're right I'm not max level with my GWF. I do have a level 60 CW and a level 55 Cleric. It's just taking me a while to get all 5 classes up to 60. Right now my GWF is currently at level 42. At least from my personal experiences so far I have been successful with him. Who knows though, maybe at 60 he'll get extremely weaker. I really can't say until i reach that point. But from what I've heard so far, as i get closer to 60 I get closer to stun locking people. And that to me sounds like it will just improve my GWF significantly
This post wasn't meant to be LoL themed. It's true that I used to play league. I quit though, that game isn't fun. Just causes rage and frustration and a LOT of hours sitting and trying to bump my elo lol.
But since we're on the topic of league why not use that as a reference. League is an excellent example because it is geared towards teamwork and taking objectives whether backdooring towers or pushing lanes to gain map control. It's about positioning, focusing down targets, and team coordination. And all of these factors are lacking right now in my opinion. Nobody in neverwinter pvp works together (or rarely does). Everyone is just focused on being on top of the kill charts with the least amount of deaths. There is no coordination. Its like when league first came out and everyone ran everywhere trying to kill everybody to get FED and win. Try doin that nowadayz in ranked. Your team will verbally slaughter you and report you for trolling. Why? because there's a meta in place now. And the meta is so strong that it's become an expectation
I personally think that pvp should just be set up with one of each class. Almost like dungeon queuing. except right now you can get stacks of everything.
maybe have 2 pvp instance types. One for queuing with friends where you could run 5 of one class if you'd like. and one for serious tournament style play. That would prevent situations like going against 3 rogues ( which honestly is stupidly unbalanced). I mean how could you have a pvp system and call it balanced when you have one team with 3 healers a tank and one dps vs 3 dps a healer and a tank?
Just some suggestions to improve, feel free to give me feedback
I really haven't done anything to troll i dont think 0.o?
As far as raging goes i admit i did a little. I just didn't expect to sit at my computer typing my well thought out opinion into a forum thread for a couple hours to end up with my instantly getting verbally attacked by the community instead of discussed. Which is what i originally intended to do. but its been a day and I've simmered so i apologize if I came off rude and argumentative ( as well as maybe a little biased as i was trying to defend my position =/ )
^ i agree entirely
Thanks for your feedback. I agree with you 100%
That would definitely help alot of people simmer. Because I can understand the frustration of being outgeared in pvp. I have to deal with that myself. Once i die to the heavily geared person tho, I just spend the rest of the game avoiding them or confronting them when my team offers me great positioning and peels.
It could be spell timing. I've seen so many CW's just spam all their nukes at once while the rogue just rolls out of the first two and then pops their cc immunity. its stupid. I always start with my iceball into a rogue. then i look for the dodge. if they get hit i choke them in the midst of the stun, wait 1 sec, then slam them prone with the ice knife. As they lay there i then blow them away with my wind rinse and repeat. if they didnt get hit from my ice ball cause they dodged then i wait for them to attack me and shift out. i then go for choke. if that gets dodged again then again i wait for attack and shift out. now the rogues used up his 2 dodges and is out of stamina while i still have 1 dodge since CWs have 3 and my knockback or my knockdown. Usually save the knockback for emergency situations. and then if anyone else shows up to ruin the day and make it a 2v1 against me, i throw out my daily that ive been saving ( either the knockback ice blast if theyre on top of me or the orb in front of my escape path to make them directly have to walk through it to get to me) and escape.