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Power vs. Armor Penetration
rgrmrdth
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Which is better - normally.
Power
vs.
Armor Penetration
Defense
vs.
Deflection
Power
vs.
Critical Strike
Armor Penetration
vs.
Critical Strike
Power
vs.
Armor Penetration
Defense
vs.
Deflection
Power
vs.
Critical Strike
Armor Penetration
vs.
Critical Strike
Post edited by rgrmrdth on
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Comments
So in theory, if you can stack enough power, it will become stronger at some point. At low amounts it appears weaker. Looking at classes that have modifiers for it such as GF and GWF, I'm curious to see how it plays out.
As to defense and deflection. I prefer the constant reduction defense has to offer over deflection.
First of all deflection requires a whole pile of rating to get any results. Second of all, when you deflect an attack, you don't prevent the entire damage of the attack, just a certain amount.
Defense is miles ahead of deflect. If I see deflect rating on gear, 98% of the time it end up being sold to a vendor.
Deflection is a percentage "chance" to reduce incoming damage by an additional 50% (as far as I can tell, you cannot increase the 50% number).
Yes, they do stack with each other !
Defence vs Deflection. Defence is a low amount of permanent damage reduction (I only got it up to about 10%). Deflection was on my Rogue a 25% damage reduction according to info window (it seem to be more like 50% in practice though). BTW there a 3 defence stat Armour Class that gives a huge damage reduction per point.
Power VS Crit forgot how much bonus damage crits did but it a lot like +75->100% damage.
The answer to what do you want? you want some of each.
For the guy who says no diminishing returns on power that kind of true as every X power adds +1 damage. But adding more power for damage reduces your DPS compared to adding that point as crit. And if a 99% damage resistance armored mob turns up your going to want AP more than anything.
The exact numbers of each we need the details IE 100 power =+1 damage 100 Crit =+1% chance 500 crit=+3% crit etc. With this info I will be able to plug the numbers in to claculations and tell you that you want to get approx 3power:2crit:1AP and 3defense:1deflection.
Part 1: NW-DMFKR9RPL http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?427711-Brunnen-des-Lichts-Teil-1
Part 2: NW-DLBTN8W28 http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?444281-Brunnen-des-Lichts-Teil-2
Icewind Dale campaign Osthafen sehen & sterben (German)
NW-DMC3IOWAE http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?477201-Osthafen-sehen-amp-sterben
Cheers!
Power is a static +1 damage for every 25 points of power. AP and Crit take more rating for as each of them get higher. For example 100 crit rating may give you 1% crit to start but once you get up to 1000 crit rating it will take more to go up 1%. I'm not sure on the exact numbers of these yet.
Is this accurate? 25 power gives you only +1 damage per hit?
I didn't calculate the exact ratio, but that sounds about right. I pretty much wrote off power since the return was low and it was a number rather than a percent, so it didn't scale. If I'm hitting for over 1K, another 10-20 damage is not going to make much difference.
Armor Penetration has potential, depending on the defense values of mobs. The real question is what happens if Armor Penetration exceeds the mob's defense. Does it reduce defense to a negative value, essentially becoming a bonus to damage?
Based on the limited information we have now, as far as damage goes, I'd say balance Critical Chance and Armor Penetration. You'll end up with some Power whether you want it or not, but don't focus on it.
As for Defense vs. Deflect, you will get more consistent returns from Defense, since as already stated, it reduces ALL incoming damage by a certain amount. However, if you're a TR, and so you're stacking Dexterity (which contributes to Deflect), and since you're not stacking either defensive ability as for the most part you're avoiding damage, it becomes a little more sensible to stack Deflect (and by stack I mean, when you can't avoid taking a defensive, pick Deflect. You shouldn't stack either on a rogue ideally. Your job is to avoid damage through use of stealth. You'd be foolish to pass up extra Power/Crit for ANY defensive.)
There's a similar argument to be made about the diminishing returns on Crit. TRs get so many skills boosting their Critical, that depending on the way these modify base stats, there may not BE diminishing returns. I'd be interested to know if anyone has more to contribute to that discussion.
I'd also love to know if anyone else has more to contribute about Armour Penetration. I doubt i'm the only TR completely avoiding it. It's very rare that I don't get top DPS, even if there's another rogue in the party. But that might just be down to smarter use of skills. I could be missing out!
More info please
Firstly, it depend on the class.
I play cleric, L38 currently, and here is was I observed so far.
Power is the most important, it has good synergy in that it boosts damage and healing. Yes, cleric can do very decent damage and decent healing. I usually come out in top 3 damage wise and 1st healing wise in a dungeon (even beating out dps classes!). If there is a dedicated 2nd healer then naturally I come 2nd in healing but not by that much and the extra damage more than makes up for it. I would not recommend going pure heal as you loose a good amount of dps and don't really gain that much in healing, and potions do a great job keeping the team alive anyway. I think there may be diminishing returns as your stats get higher as well, but this is based purely on observation, doing dungeon runs with other classes and comparing results with mine.
Crit is 2nd most important as it amplifies your power stat for damage and healing as well as good synergy with cleric's stats that focus on crit.
Defense would be 3rd most important. An efficient healer that also does good dps will have agro most of the time. So you need to have good survivability.
AP and deflection are not efficient for a healer so don't bother.
This depends on class - which you neglected to mention in your title or your post. So for say trickster rogue, take the above and:
Scratch Defense and Deflection, and get 3:2 ratio of lifesteal and recovery instead. Seriosuly, you're in leather armor, defense and deflection aren't really going to save you, burning that MFer down in 2 sec flat will. Lifesteal will proc off every hit, and help offset your need for healing potions - basically the more damage you do, the more health you get back. And recovery will help reduce skill-use timers - meaning you can get those big hitters in more. Also, AP is a much bigger deal for rogues than for say GFs, so that ratio is going to be a bit different as well.
Summary: Trickster Rogue - 3:2:2 Crit/Power/AP and 3:2 Lifesteal/Recovery.
You can also do a gimmick, burst build of 1:1:1 Crit/AP/Recovery - which is only really useful in certain dungeon situations backed up by a solid group.
Critical hit = Power > armor penetration
Defence > Deflection
Regeneration > Life steal
The group uses potions in critical situations, not all the time, such as when the boss throws a whole lot of add and no healer is good enough to keep the party at full hp 100% of the time.
I never stated that my char was an "efficient healer". My char is efficient in that he can put out good dps + heals than a pure healer with low dps.
The cleric takes agro when he is efficient at his job, that's just game mechanics. You cannot control it unless you reduce dps, but then you wouldn't be efficient. As long as you have good survivability there are no issues here.
I find good dps and good heal > low dps and high heal, been verified by looking at dungeon run stats if you add dps and healing together. Try it if you don't believe me.
I'm currently mostly Power(852) and Armor Pen(718) with a bit of Crit(378). Does great against mobs but not so well against players in PVP. I believe that's because some players don't have a lot of Defense.
Does anyone know more accurately how the Armor Penetration is calculated? Hopefully someone will unravel the calcs running in the background so we can make good decisions on the items and know where the diminishing return really falls off.
Im worried about some of the other posts saying there are diminishing returns on armor pen. Does anyone have a link to proof of that?
Edit: Just thought of a second way armor pen could possibly behave. Armor pen could also possibly just reduce the targets defence by whatever percentage it says on your character sheet in stead of a flat subtraction of damage reduction, which would be pretty lackluster in my opinion. I kinda want a dev to speak on this topic theres nothing we can do as players but speculate. I would rather have some hard info on the subject.
Smart, not necessary but how about "obsessive/crazy"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XR4KdpzlbqU
[h=1]NW: Optimizing Stats & Diminishing Returns (Kripp)[/h]
Part 1: NW-DMFKR9RPL http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?427711-Brunnen-des-Lichts-Teil-1
Part 2: NW-DLBTN8W28 http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?444281-Brunnen-des-Lichts-Teil-2
Icewind Dale campaign Osthafen sehen & sterben (German)
NW-DMC3IOWAE http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?477201-Osthafen-sehen-amp-sterben
If anyone has a larger amount and wants to try it out on a dummy, check out this log parser.
http://www.reignofelysian.com/forum/showthread.php?105-Neverwinter-Combat-Log-Parser
Disregard the line where the guy says to copy and paste into notepad and save it. The link for the plugin is already in the right format and ready to go.
The 1 important thing he doesn't mention is that you have to tell the program where the combatlog is for Neverwinter. Just follow the Setup Wizard that starts up the first time you open ACT. Skip the Plugin tab and go to the Log File tab, there you have to tell it to point at the Neverwinter\Neverwinter\Live\logs\GameClient\Combatlog.log. You can hit next and then just click "close" on the next tab.
Now that the Wizard is over, click the plugin tab at the top of the program. There's a Browse button, browse to the Neverwinter Plugin you downloaded then click the Add/Enable button under Browse.
If you need to get the Startup Wizard back, click the Options tab at the top. Towards the top on the right you'll see a button that says Show Startup Wizard.
Now in game type /combatlog 1 to start and /combatlog 0 to stop. You'll see the program update on the fly. Take a few minutes to learn the basics of reading it and the options on the bottom that let you delete specific encounters and stuff.
Take a few different samples of Power and ArP gear and post a pic or just your findings.
If you need help on how to use it, post back here.
If I ever get enough gear I'll do it myself eventually but I'm still low level.
EDIT:
Here is another parser. I think it's simpler to use but it is less robust. It won't update live or give length of encounter like the other one will I don't think, which you kind of need to know how long each sample is. I would suggest learning the other one, only took me an hour to really get the hang of the whole thing.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/combatlogparser/
didn't see this already addressed, but its actually added to your weapon's base damage.
Ya.. pretty worthless if youre talking an extra 20 pts to a 130k shocking ex... but on the other hand added to weapon damage, with its multiplicative effect... Through power you stand to gain more than the net difference between a level 60 blue weapon and your t2 epic weapons. I think looking at it that way, power starts to make more sense.
Fully have to agree that defensive stats if youre primary goal is pve are not something you should be "looking for" on gear in the first place. For ex. you'd never prioritize a power/crit/deflect(or defense) piece of like stats over a power/crit/recovery or power/crit/ArP. A lot of ppl seem to be misunderstanding deflection in that they are under the impression that it "reflects" damage rather than what it actually does.. merely "deflects" 25% when you get its effect. Aside from that, if I were going for a damage avoidance spec for some reason, I'd personally probably go for defense, but I haven't crunched the numbers to see a comparison between what say 3k deflect would do over a steady course of damage vs 3k defense. At first glance, if youre up in that range, I'd guess that the flat all around DR from defense would win out.
To give an idea of the way power fits into the picture, take a look at high end weapons. Aside from teh fairly silly mods of pvp weapons which throw some fairly useless HP pools on every weapon (I don't need the lecture that across all your gear they DO add so and so amt of extra health... I'm not saying they do nothing.. I'm saying their value vs nearly every other stat in the game that can be itemized in mod slots makes them useless and a fairly silly addition.
So, other than that, there is a reason so much power is packed onto weapons, and that nearly every piece of high end gear has a sizeable chunk of power as its largest primary stat (yes... there are some exceptions). The reason being, the quickest, simplest way initially to up damage is by upping power. Balancing crit to a point, recovery... and then things like lifesteal etc for some survivability if mods slots are available... Anyways... tbh, due to MANY factors, not the least being that the median defense of both players and mobs in the game just isn't enough that ArP ends up being of nearly as much value is every other dps stat. Add to that the fact that targets are having their defense debuffed, there are skills that ignore armor, etc, ArP is actually nearly worthless. I'm not saying it does nothing... I'm saying comparatively, it just doesn't match up.
If you understand the numbers, you get it. If you don't, you're stacking ArP because from its definition it "seems" like what you should be doing. But if you are doing anything other than soloing with a spec that does no defense debffing or auto armor ignoring (which is actually pretty rare if you look across classes and skill grps) then your ArP has been devalues into oblivion.
I think you've fallen into assuming that combat mechanics in this game are functioning atm (whether intentionally or not) the way they do a several other MMOs. THey aren't, and don't.
Clerics first and foremost, in classic DnD parties, have never been the sole source of healing. Pots were pretty common. Based on the way pots function with a small cooldown vs many other games where you get to use sometimes at most 1 per combat encounter, I think it goes a long way to demonstrate how healing works.
Then, looking at how clerics function, and how their heals function, again, I think you'd be hard pressed to say you actually believe they are intended to be a groups sole source of healing, or that a cleric isn't "doing their job" if someone needs to use a pot. More likely you have a player who knows the difficulty thats been designed into cleric healing through other parties members, mobs, etc and so knows not to hesitate to use their pot when needed. (Oddly enough, there is still a LARGE portion of the player population completely unaware that clerics can't click target their portrait or some <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> like that which they've seen healers designed to use from other games)
Aggro atm, by the devs own admission, is messed for clerics and they are actively investigating how to fix it. That means, again, if a cleric is pulling aggro, its not because theyre not doing their job... TBH, its most likely because theyre trying to heal the way you imagine they should.
Could have been changed... atm its 25% not 50%. Now, if there were skills that could have an effect on deflection of 25% like some do with crit severity, then deflection gets interesting. ATM.... Only very rarely is it going to have made a difference that actually mattered. If you chronically sit so low in HP that 25% damage reduction would have saved you...... I don't know what you are doing, but it seems to me the flat % reduction from defense would have likely helped you avoid the situation in the first place, lifesteal or regen would have done more to get you out of it.
Every skill has it's own coefficient with weapon dmg, so a big skill like Lashing Blade should gain more dmg from +1 weapon dmg than a smaller attack like say Dazing Strike.
Basically since you already have a big heaping of weapon dmg/power from your weapon already, power AT FIRST isn't good.
Crit/ArmPen/Recovery are much better, but once you've stacked all of these dmg modifiers up, power starts to get better and better, and then these stats start to hit DR, and power becomes good then.
As for Defense vs Deflection, in pvp Defense is worse just because of how much Armor Pen hits it. If someone has 20% armor pen and you only have like 8% dmg reduction from AC, any defense you stack til you get to 20% damage reduction is kind of pointless, but after that point it starts doing something.
But then, the higher % dmg reduction you go from Defense/AC the more effective the enemy's ArPen becomes, because reducing your DR by a flat 20% when you have 50% DR is a much bigger dmg boost overall for them than if you had 30% DR, although you'll still take a bit less dmg at 50% DR, they're stat just becomes even more efficient. Then you through in all the debuffs.
However for fighter classes, assuming Constitution actually does cancel out attackers' armor pen, defense wouldn't be so bad for them at all in pvp.
For everyone else though it's questionable, and at a certain point deflection would probably be a better DR source. HP as always is even better.