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The difference between need and greed
ilandrya
Member Posts: 24 Arc User
<rant on> I don't know if there are just a lot of rude people, a lot of ignorant people, or a mix of both. So, here is a clarification:
GREED: this is what you select when the character class you are playing cannot equip the gear up for grabs because it's not for your class, or when the item is unidentified.. you can't "need" something when you don't even know what it is or know if it's better or worse than what you already have yet. If you are just going to sell the item, or hold it for an alt (who can run his own dungeons instead of taking from those who are actually running the dungeon and need the item, especially at this stage of the game when they don't yet have money to buy much), that is "greed".
Now, if everyone wants to select need on every single item, I and everyone else will have to do that too. Chances are when something comes up you really want/need, you'll be less likely to get it because instead of passing on the item as civil people normally would, I and everyone else in the party will be having to select need in order to sell stuff to buy the gear needed that you took by selecting need on an item you can't even equip. So, would you prefer I act like a civilized human being when something you really need is up for grabs that I can't use, or do we need to really resort to mob mentality in a game? Thanks.</rant off>
GREED: this is what you select when the character class you are playing cannot equip the gear up for grabs because it's not for your class, or when the item is unidentified.. you can't "need" something when you don't even know what it is or know if it's better or worse than what you already have yet. If you are just going to sell the item, or hold it for an alt (who can run his own dungeons instead of taking from those who are actually running the dungeon and need the item, especially at this stage of the game when they don't yet have money to buy much), that is "greed".
Now, if everyone wants to select need on every single item, I and everyone else will have to do that too. Chances are when something comes up you really want/need, you'll be less likely to get it because instead of passing on the item as civil people normally would, I and everyone else in the party will be having to select need in order to sell stuff to buy the gear needed that you took by selecting need on an item you can't even equip. So, would you prefer I act like a civilized human being when something you really need is up for grabs that I can't use, or do we need to really resort to mob mentality in a game? Thanks.</rant off>
Post edited by ilandrya on
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Comments
Is it rude? Maybe, but rudeness is in the eyes of the beholder. Assuming that all rollable items are not bind-on-pickup, and assuming everyone accepts the idea of rolling "need" on everything, then the differences can be sorted out on the auction house. You may not get the item right now, but with a little patience, you stand a really good chance of getting it eventually (and probably sooner than if you just re-ran the same instances over and over). If everyone comes to grips with this way of thinking, it's no longer rude, it's business as usual.
That said, I'm all for an alternative system to the usual need/greed setup, like individualized loot rolls (e.g. GW2 or Cryptic's own City of Heroes) or marks/materials drops or any one of a number of systems that have been proposed. It's high time for Need/Greed to die IMO; there's nothing good about it from a player's point of view. But trying to get everyone to buy into a system of etiquette that is clearly in direct contradiction with the game mechanics is pretty much doomed to failure.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
But then I hate the need/greed system, so...
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
I agree it is optimal as the game is now; you'd be foolish not to need everything. A perfect system however would prevent the "need" scam from happening, by making the item non transferable if you chose "need". So if you choose need, and can't use it, it's junk. Keeps the honest people honest.
But I agree with you...I hate the Need/Greed system too.
Bonus mission: Need then make them pay you for it.
Rolling need is NOT pvp. This just makes you a jerk.
The optimal strategy for rolling need for the past 15 or so years was because the item was an upgrade for your main character. Not rolling need for items for alts, not rolling need for guildies, or rolling because you can make coin off it. It has gotten to the point where it really sickens me that people care so much about what they want and how much wealth they can accumulate in a virtual world that they just screw everyone else in the process.
I just did a dungeon run with a group and noticed I walked away with nothing from it but a few seals from the boss. I scrolled up through the chat and noticed that one person was needing on every single rune that dropped while the rest of us were rolling greed. Now he may have needed a rune I can accept that if it was one he really needed or wanted, but all of them? A guy even rolled need on a non class blue item he couldn't even use. But you know what? This is the mentality of modern gamers today. It pretty sad that you need a game developer to police the way loot is distributed in a game because the players themselves have no self control or consideration for others.
I`m really glad I can scroll though my logs and add people to my ignore list. I only hope when someone is on your list it flags them from being able to join the same dungeon as you so you don`t have to deal with them again. There are a lot of good people out there that it is indeed a pleasure to game with. But the number of jackholes outweighs them tremendously.
If something is class specific then other classes shouldn't be able to roll on it.
While it would be optimal for everyone if everyone played nice, the fact remains that each player can only anticipate and control his or her own actions, and no one else's. Thus, from any individual player's point of view, it pays to roll "need" unless the player has solid reason to believe that everyone else will play by the "rules" (e.g. playing with guildies or friends).
Hence the prisoner's dilemma referred to previously (although I see it as an inversion of the dilemma). Faced with uncertainty about what the other guy will do, the best strategy you can do is screw the other guy. Any other option and you risk getting screwed yourself. That's why it keeps happening, and that's why the common etiquette falls apart.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
If you roll greed, you aren't really greedy. Perhaps your honest and not very intelligent though.
If you roll need your doing it right. All items are BoE and we all need AD. I've seen too many people roll need on stuff they don't need (not only people rolling on stuff not for their class, but people rolling on blues when they already have a purple ect.) to roll anything but need now.
IMO the system should have just 2 buttons, roll or pass. The greed button causes more problems than anything.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
You need ID scrolls anyway, and 15AD isn't really worth it for unusable vendor trash.
It works well when people are slightly cooperative. Within my guild and with most PUGs, everyone Needs usable items and Greeds unusable items. This means everyone has an equal shot at things like amulets and rings, and the appropriate class gets class-restricted gear. If the appropriate class is absent in the party, everyone still has an equal shot because we all hit Greed.
It also makes it a lot less distracting, especially when people start looting in the middle of combat. If it's red Shift-2, otherwise Shift-1.
This is what I do as well. I know I am for one not buying anything off the AH there's plenty of green out there dropping like flies. So the whole AH selling thing boggles my mind. Diamonds also drop like flies, especially if you do your dalies, so that's confusing as well.
I know someone who (if he's leader) kicks the person from the group that won't stop needing and everyone else is greeding. That works too.
If you roll greed based on if you can equip an item, you are just falling victim to a broken system, and frankly being taken advantage of. The only way to have truly fair loot distribution is for everyone to choose need. The loot system it designed to make you spend AD on scrolls, which to me is the only real deterrent to needing everything with a ? on it, but for a dedicated trader it probably isn't, nor should it be.
I used to be a total Need before greed white knight, until I realized that most of the NBG crowd in the games I played used it as a way to get rich by selling the items they claimed to need, while using guilt and social pressure keep complaints to a mumble. Fool me once...
Are you suggesting I interact with another person in an MMO...I mean actual communicate directly? /Shudder
This is exactly what I do when traveling with people I dont know....with friends I am lazy and pick something...then give it to them at the end of the run
But "I want it for money" is the very definition of "Greed". /shrug
I roll greed on stuff that isn't an upgrade for my character, until I see that the party is rolling Need on everything. Just because the internet is full of antisocial jerks, is no reason to automatically become one too.