test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Forums > Home› Class Forums›
Are GWF a Tank or a DPS or Both?
zardoz007
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 2 Arc User
Just a couple simple questions.
1) Is the Great weapon fighter a Tank?
In the sense that they should be able to hold aggro on Par with a Guardian Fighter with a semblance of survivability if they focus on on that and take the GWF defensive and Aggro paragon path. Even if they do not get "Pull" or taunt "Moves" but tank by engaging first sprinting ahead and hitting fast and often.
2) Is the Great weapon Fighter a tough Damage dealer only?
Is the GWF only role is to be a damage machine that is just a bit tougher than the rogue, and if so how will a Barbarian class being added to the game affect what the Great Weapon Fighter is now.
3) Should the GWF have the choice to do Both tank or Damage or build in between and be an offtank?
How much diversity in "roles" should a class have? There are many different types of moves in the game and if you equip the right ones with the right gear should you have the option to take on another role.
My Thoughts
Fighter in D&D has always been a tank, even if he had a great sword everyone would always get behind the fighter because he was still naturally tougher than everyone else and other classes could support him well. I would hate to see a game where you only had a single tank option, With the rolls of Healer, Damage Dealer, Tank and Crowd Control, 1/4th of all class should be tanks, healers, damage Dealers and crowd controls. And right now it is looking like we have one Tank fighter and all future fighters will be damage dealers because they wont use shields but great swords, two weapons or maybe even bows. Paladin might go along the same route, Tank paladin, Vindicator Greatsword Paladin and maybe more of a divine smiting paladin. They should all be tanks even if only the shield users can stand still and block and everyone else gets out of the way, the monsters should still hunt them down first.
I see that Barbarian will be on its way. there is a place for half naked guy beating your face in with a great axe in the game and he should not be "cheapened" by the existence of the GWF. The more diversity and options we as players have the better. It keeps us playing the same classes in new ways, which keeps us putting money into the game.
1) Is the Great weapon fighter a Tank?
In the sense that they should be able to hold aggro on Par with a Guardian Fighter with a semblance of survivability if they focus on on that and take the GWF defensive and Aggro paragon path. Even if they do not get "Pull" or taunt "Moves" but tank by engaging first sprinting ahead and hitting fast and often.
2) Is the Great weapon Fighter a tough Damage dealer only?
Is the GWF only role is to be a damage machine that is just a bit tougher than the rogue, and if so how will a Barbarian class being added to the game affect what the Great Weapon Fighter is now.
3) Should the GWF have the choice to do Both tank or Damage or build in between and be an offtank?
How much diversity in "roles" should a class have? There are many different types of moves in the game and if you equip the right ones with the right gear should you have the option to take on another role.
My Thoughts
Fighter in D&D has always been a tank, even if he had a great sword everyone would always get behind the fighter because he was still naturally tougher than everyone else and other classes could support him well. I would hate to see a game where you only had a single tank option, With the rolls of Healer, Damage Dealer, Tank and Crowd Control, 1/4th of all class should be tanks, healers, damage Dealers and crowd controls. And right now it is looking like we have one Tank fighter and all future fighters will be damage dealers because they wont use shields but great swords, two weapons or maybe even bows. Paladin might go along the same route, Tank paladin, Vindicator Greatsword Paladin and maybe more of a divine smiting paladin. They should all be tanks even if only the shield users can stand still and block and everyone else gets out of the way, the monsters should still hunt them down first.
I see that Barbarian will be on its way. there is a place for half naked guy beating your face in with a great axe in the game and he should not be "cheapened" by the existence of the GWF. The more diversity and options we as players have the better. It keeps us playing the same classes in new ways, which keeps us putting money into the game.
Post edited by zardoz007 on
0
Comments
STRUGGLING? uMAD? QQ? NEED A GUIDE? GET SPOON FED HERE! NOMNOMNOM
In PvP, I would classify them as a "Bruiser" like you would see in League of Legends. Big, tough damage dealer who kills you by getting in your face and staying there.
I disagree; I think it fits perfectly! Don't think of it as a defensive ability; it's a gap closer. The GWF is an aggressive murder machine, and the sprint (or rather charge) ability allows the eager warriors to get right into the fray before anyone else. You will use it to get out of telegraphed attacks, sure, but that's not it's true intended purpose.
Also, what's a Devastator AT? Does CO stand for Conan Online?
I think sprint fits perfectly. Personally I usually use the charge encounter ability to avoid splats and save sprint for gap closing. I see the role of the GWF as tanking the adds while the GF tanks the boss. Is the healer buried in trash? Sprint over there, roar for group agro and start swinging.
I admit I didn't play much GWF (only played in the BW3 and mostly went Cleric), so I'm curious what your thoughts are in terms of PvP and his tank vs dps role there.
*first post*When I said sprint/charge ability I meant the shift Dash not the encounter power, just clarifying.
The Guardian is the one bulky and heavy armored fighter who deal with the incoming blows by puting his face in the way of the strike, and the GWF is the one who thinks that better avoid the damage complitely by getting out of the way. I dont want the Great Weapon Fighter to be a Guardian Fighter with another weapon, and the quick dash fits very well the fast, master of weapons style of class.
And for the "Can we tank?" question, we have a encounter pull skill (AoE pull in fact) called "Come and Get It", but i didnt level as much to see it in action. And another encounter, that buff our defense by an ammount based in how strong are the enemies around us (last more or less 2/3 of the CD) weak the defense of the nearby foes and (i think) can be upgraded in the Sentinel Path to generate aggro. Need to test it, but for me it seems two good tanking skills. I dont think the GWF is an ONLY damage dealer, the Guardian likely is a better tank, but we CAN tank (at least i think we can) with the proper build and skills. If i need to put this class in a category, it will be in Off-tank, can deal and endure damage as he needs, not as easy as the "1 Role Classes" but with versatility, much like TERAs Warrior.
I like that a lot, actually. And you bring up a good point: assuming the devs do it right your role will depend on your feats/paragon path. So I imagine that the GWF can be anything from a beefy brawler shouting taunts and tanking all the adds to a quick-hitting Aragorn blademaster who uses more finesse than strength. After all, isn't Strength the primary stat and Con and Dex are the secondary? In 4th Edition a given character would typically spec to one secondary stat over the other.
The Devastator AT stands for Archetype, and CO stands for Champions Online, another Cryptic Studio MMO...
D&D is not based on the holy trinity. WoW (and most other MMOs) are based on the holy trinity. D&D is based on: Controller (Wizards, Invokers) Leaders (Cleric, Warlord) Strikers (Rangers, Rogues) and Defenders (Paladins, Fighters).
The GWF isn't really a Hybrid, IMO. They're a different take on DPS than the squishy stealther Rogue, and with a focus on a different form of DPS, ie AoE damage.
Source
Take from that what you will.
As far as DPS goes.. GWF has the potential to be a melee AoE powerhouse topping the leaderboards everytime. You can jump into a group of mobs and quickly mass clear out the trash and then focus down elites. Because of their huge AoE range from their at-wills, encounters, and dailys you're almost guaranteed to be doing more cumulative damage than any other class currently.
Although.. there seems to be the thought from some people that damage done to trash mobs doesn't matter, so ultimately if you're looking for maximum melee DPS, you're going to have to decide between AoE damage (GWF) vs Single Target damage (Trickster Rogue).
In the BW2 my friend and I played a Devoted Cleric and Guardian Fighter combo up to 40. As a Devoted Cleric, I was always on the top of the leaderboard for DPS, focusing on maximum AoE DPS.
This past weekend we played a GWF and TR up to 50. As a GWF I was once again always on top for most DPS, but my friend as a TR always came in at a close second. Neither of us are a stranger to action mmos.
Sounds like something you find on a playstation
-_^
Glad someone caught that
I geared and played completely for DPS.
I used Sure Strike as my primary at will, it just did better single target damage than anything and to me that is what was important in boss fights. I may go with more of an AoE build on release though as it seemed more useful in group play. In solo play though I really needed the single target damage to get rid of the more dangerous elite mobs.
I used Master Strike as my second at will and my opener.
Encounter powers where: The low sweeping AoE damager (sorry cant remember all of the power names), The Lunge one that opens at level 40, and the restoring strike
Daily Powers were: Avalanche of steel, so much utility, really a benifit to the group to help buy time in hairy situations in both Pvp and PvE. You don't take damage while it is charging up, and it takes a few seconds to go off, so it can buy a lot of time for cool downs and potion timers to reset. Also AoE damage is second to none, amazing with determination on, and the knock down effect is just a cherry on top to make it pretty much my main daily. I coupled it with the charge attack, where you knock things down all around you, knock a target back, then charge to it and hit it hard.
I would open with master strike, followed by the lunge and restoring strike. At times that was enough along to nearly kill an elite mob. Serious burst single target damage. I would just sure strike to finish them off usually. Of course though they were usually surrounded by a bunch of adds, so in that case i would open with the low sweep AoE damage after master strike, then do one cycle of sure strike before refreshing master strike and doing the lunge and restore to follow. If I wanted more AoE I would avalanche of steel to fill the gaps, especially on bosses, and do the charge with damage daily for more burst with a control on single targets like bosses.
Determination built slowly with so much single target in the build I almost ditched wicked strike for master strike for more AoE. It seemed like pretty similar damage in solo, but I really missed the single target burst on bosses.
Overall my biggest issue is having a low damage at will in master strike that only buffs other attacks slightly. It really took a lot of choice and flexibility away to have that take an at will slot. I really wish that it was a better version of sure strike so that I could have a legit AoE at will as my other attack. That would have left me feeling a lot more balanced and useful for whatever situation came up.
Maybe I just need more time to figure the mechanics out, but all in all it seemed like you got real pigeonholed into at will choices and you had to choose between a single target and AoE damage build. You really could not do both effectively.
I also had the feeling that if I went with defensive feats and defensive gear that I absolutely could tank a boss pretty much on par with a poor guardian fighter. However there is no comparison to the damage mitigation that their block skill gets. So to try to main tank IMO is trying to make the GWF do something that is not intended and others are just better at. I didn't really feel the need to gear defensively for add tanking either, as one of the main functions is to be able to take the adds out in a timely manner. Too many bosses, especially in end game, spawn adds too fast to sacrifice the damage. If your not pulling your weight there the group will suffer.
I pretty much left the rogue to damage the boss and I only went for the boss if all adds were gone, I would make sure to save encounter powers and dailies mainly for adds and just let the rogue do his thing. I have to say in all the runs I did in beta 3, about 4 skirmish and 4-5 dungeons, that my cleric and control wizards tended to stay alive. Once in a while someone would die, but that was just because they stood in red stuff :P
I feel that in live, focusing on a stat like life steal, especially with all the AoE hits you can do, would go further than an actual defensive stat. Also the cleric companion was pretty much a must have. Between pots, cleric companion, and stacking some life steal you should be pretty durable and still be able to stack power, armor pen, and crit for damage output. We have to see what the break points are for % numbers at level 60 to know how much of what we need.
Also I played a human, which is just an RP thing for me, Horc is probably better but I liked how the human worked out and by no means did I feel gimped for my choice. I will say though, not being a Horc, that I will likely focus on power and armor pen over crit. *shrug* were all newbing it up at this point so who really knows. Just thought I would share my experiences with you all.
Think of it as a trouble shooter.
Boss Encounter
- (1)AI attacking Cleric: (Yes) Peel it off, take it to guardian (No) Go to (2).
- (2)Are minions alive: (Yes) Kill Minions (No) Go to (3)
- (3)Are standard alive: (Yes) Kill standard (No) Go to (4)
- (4)Are Elite Alive: (Yes) Kill Elite (No) Go to (5)
- (5)Boss Alone: (Yes) Kill boss. (No) Re-evaluate from (1)
Standard EncounterBy killing the weaker mobs you will end up with an average higher damage output as well, the minions have considerable weaker defense than many of the other creatures, so your hits will be larger on them in general, same goes for Standard monsters being weaker than elites.
One thing to remember, is never to neglect getting behind the boss, while it is not so important on trash mobs such as minions, it is much more worth while being behind the bosses for the combat advantage, I saw so many GWF running off ahead in dungeons and pulling before the GF, leading them to lose damage in the long run compare to those that got behind mobs and allowed the GF to tank, the end damage results told the tale and it was so painfully obvious, but yet you see the same people doing the same thing over and over.
Your momentum bar is great to fill, but do it by killing minions, not by killing your damage.
(Minions are easy to identify, they are the ones that have health bars that are one line with no pips.)
that is a Community Moderator not a dev, while you should follow what the Community Moderator say when it has things to do in terms of forum rules, what they say about in game features should be taken with a pinch of salt.
Not to mention I feel the use of "Dps" is so misused these days, a GWF will out damage a rogue in general if played properly, as it has many more are of effect skills and is much more effective at taking down larger packs through out dungeons. However a GWF will not out do a rogue in single target damage or "dps".
what I am saying is, over the extent of a dungeon as an example the great weapon fighter will have a higher damage output, but will have less dps on the individual boss. If both players are playing properly anyhow.
Are you sure about that? When I played in bw3 the GWF definitely felt more like primarily a striker with some light defender capabilities if needed in a pinch. Even the news feed for GWF states the role(s) as damage dealer and secondary defender.
and Imho, I hope they dont change a thing with the roles. Its nice to have adaptability. I cant tell you how many games I've played where the mission fell apart because we didnt have the magic trinity. I hope people give it a chance and dont whine about it.
Truly is hard for me to grasp how the very few people are still trying to say the GWF is a defender lol. I mean it has been ground into the dirt that it is not.
GWF is a STRIKER and then add some CC. As every video shows as every dev post drills as the new GWF video very very clearly says. nothing at all said about defending or defender or tank in anyway.
GWF has very small threat meter and that is later on when they can put some point into it. They can NOT hold agro well which has been tested and proven really beyond debate. ( don't embarrass yourself by bringing up the cleric agro bug that is now fixed)
there nothing at all about the GWF that even hints at defending. they charge and do dps. they move fast to get out of their own troubles. they have small but helpful CC which is not defending otherwise a wizard is a defender and so is a rogue with their CCs which of course is stupid.
silly silly silly. enjoy this awesome and fun dps class. but stop trying to convince us that 2+2=5
The AoE damage of their control aspect makes them misunderstood greatly. Many players expect any damage to = DPS to = Striker. That simply is not true. AoE damage is the providence of a controller, not a striker. Strikers do single target damage, and in that role the GWF struggles mightily compared to others. That being said AoE damage is the main aspect of a GWF.
Second to that they are also able to be defenders. They have to stack Con as a secondary stat to emphasize this not Dex though, along with taking some defensive feats and using their determination bar for defense as well as offense. Determination gives 20% / 40% damage reduction, which is pretty huge. Also since they do not have a block mechanic they need to use the mobility of the class with sprint to avoid special attacks rather than block and mitigate them. So you have to move around a lot to be effective. They will never be as effective in the defender role as a guardian fighter or more dedicated defender class, but they are the next in line when one is not around.
The last emphasis of the GWF is a lot of control effects. There are a lot of knock down effects with just one push back and one slow effect. Hence the control is definitely different than a control wizard. There is one at will that has a push back as well, but many misunderstand the mechanics and discard it. There is even one pull to encounter power.
Playing a GWF as a striker is a huge mistake in my book and I would just roll a rogue if that is your goal. I should know, I made this very mistake and learned the hard way.
They are not strikers. Referring to Argantis post is a great description of what the GWF actually is but it is not a striker. I would add more but I see no need as Argantis did a mighty good job of it.
The AoE damage of their control aspect makes them misunderstood greatly. Many players expect any damage to = DPS to = Striker.
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; Any damage no. a DPS that 90% of all skills are straight DPS skills yes that IS a striker. The develepers have stated VERY clearly the GWF is a dps class DPS = striker period. how you debate is just amazing. ;;;;;;;
That simply is not true.
;;;;;;;;;; yes DPS class= striker ;;;;;;;;
AoE damage is the providence of a controller, not a striker.
;;;;;;;;;;; No sir it is AoE DPS straight damage barb style nothing but damage. a couple skills that do DPS but also can stun,snare,knockdown etc. is not a controller class . that is a very far from prime focus ,seconardy maybe even the third small aspect of the GWF;;;;;;;;;;;
Strikers do single target damage,
:::::::::::::: yet again with a HUGE NO. strikers focus is damage... which means striker. also the GWF if you tested gets a few single target dps striks that increase the single target damage by a good 150%:::::::::::
and in that role the GWF struggles mightily compared to others.
;;;;;;;;; NO again:::::::
That being said AoE damage is the main aspect of a GWF.
::::::::::::::::ding ding ding YES this means damage striker. main aoe damage is not defender and not controler::::::::::
Second to that they are also able to be defenders
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;able? hmm ok they can defend like a wizard defends having a lot of survival skills is NOT defending:::::::::::::::::.
They have to stack Con as a secondary stat to emphasize this not Dex though, along with taking some defensive feats and using their determination bar for defense as well as offense. Determination gives 20% / 40% damage reduction, which is pretty huge
.;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;which is survival not defending thank you;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
Also since they do not have a block mechanic they need to use the mobility of the class with sprint to avoid special attacks rather than block and mitigate them. So you have to move around a lot to be effective. They will never be as effective in the defender role as a guardian fighter or more dedicated defender class, but they are the next in line when one is not around.
;;;;;;;; which does not make them a controller or defender yet again. HP(life) and armor is not defender sorry:::;;;;;;;
The last emphasis of the GWF is a lot of control effects. There are a lot of knock down effects with just one push back and one slow effect. Hence the control is definitely different than a control wizard.
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; of course it is different it is different skills. cleric has more CC then the GWF is the cleric a defender class now too?? lol;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
There is one at will that has a push back as well, but many misunderstand the mechanics and discard it. There is even one pull to encounter power.
Playing a GWF as a striker is a huge mistake in my book and I would just roll a rogue if that is your goal. I should know, I made this very mistake and learned the hard way.
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;there ya go Void. he did word his opinion pretty enough. but nothing will change the fact the GWF is 90% a damage dealer. which is a DPS which is a striker. nothing! that is not my opinion that is a straight fact and shared by the devs.
I would also like to know where the devs have stated this bit
Here is the definition of the roles for you this is 4e straight from WotC website you wont find it here on the Cryptic site but I can assure you that they have not varied or wavered from this one bit.