Why are you people still arguing about lore and stories? If it's not important to you that's fine. If it is important to you that's fine.
But neither of you will be able to convince the other that they are wrong.
If lore and story doesn't make a game fun to you, what makes you think that nobody else would find it important in their games?
You my friend are a flat coke drinker. Just because carbonation doesn't make a drink any better to you, doesn't mean carbonation isn't important to everybody else.
No one is arguing at least I am not. I'm trying to make a point. DnD is not just one thing, it's many things coming together to form a whole. Some people prefer one aspect of it but like you say it doesn't lessen the other aspects. Forums are a place to try and get our ideas across and reach a better understanding of one another.
Your analogy is rather faulty as you are assuming things about me that are flat out wrong.
Easy solution. Play more MMOs. The Secret World has an absolutely brilliant thematic setting and a fully voiced story. TOR isn't half bad either (though it still falls a bit short compared to its SRPG counterparts). LOTRO even has occasional bouts of brilliance.
Also, what was the point of your point? It had absolutely nothing to do with the post you quoted. It seemed like you couldn't actually counter the point I made (Baldur's Gate is memorable due to story) so you shifted the topic to something altogether different (MMOs can't have good stories, which is simply not the case).
First I quoted two people, one had nothing to do with you the second quote which did was right on par mate. Mmo's are notorious for suck <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> storylines, a couple mmo's that did have a somewhat decent storyline doesn't change this. Nowhere did I say they couldn't, reading is hard heh, but very very very rarely do they have good stories.
Anyone being honest with themselves plays single player game for a good story not mmo's.
You're claiming DnD is all about lore and story only and lets"toss" the ruleset, shenanigans DnD especially in mmo platform has to be MORE than just a good story, the ruleset will help determine how the story plays out and feels.
I'm all for a good story like many of you say it is very very important but the ruleset is equally important as that is what allows us to play out that story. The same way a really inexperienced and really sucky DM can ruin a good story so can a sucky ruleset do likewise.
Maybe you get what I am saying now, no matter how good the story if the way it is delivered ( or played ) blows then so too will the session or game. Baldur Gate was good because of the story but the gameplay was important too.
Daggerdale is a prime example of what I mean.
That said this whole thread is about class based armor and has NOTHING to do with storyline and whether this game will have a good one or not.
Alas some people are purposely being obtuse and trying to get this thread off track. Lets look at it this another way, if story line is the only thing important to this DnD game in your eyes why the big brouhaha about how the ruleset will go and why care about those that think class based armor is a not good idea?
Why not let those concerned about this have their say without jumping on them and being a smart <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about it?
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited January 2013
As Pilf3r pointed out, let's do try to keep this on topic and now get back to the topic at hand. There are other threads more suitable for the discussion of story and lore.
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited January 2013
If gear is class-based, I personally would much rather see gear be skill based instead like it is in PnP, and be able to learn new skills that allow me to equip non-base class gear. For instance, as a wizard - while yes I have almost always worn cloth in PnP, I still prefer to wield a sword rather than a staff, dagger or sling. As a Cleric, I also prefer to wield a sword rather than a mace and even as far as in the case of a Priestess of Eilstrasee (even though she is dead), I would prefer to wear cloth armor that is revealing, rather than a full suit of metal armor. Instead relying on my Dexterity and Parrying abilities with a sword for defense.
Bottom line for me on this: In D&D, customization goes far beyond one's race , racial appearance, and gear appearance in my opinion. It also envelops skills, actual gear choices and abilities. Without this latter, I fear there may be not enough to allow players to differentiate themselves from one another and express their characters how they imagine, which to me is what D&D is all about.
"That's a Paladins sword!!!"
Gee I don't know Elvis, if I walk over to you and jab you in the eye with it, it's going to hurt all the same right? I mean despite the fact that I'm a warrior?
roflmfaoapmp
i love you
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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quorforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
Talk about what "is D&D" is pointless. The spectrum of what "is D&D" throughout the years of D&D in terms of official material is enormous, and even moreso when you include all the ways people play it that is outside of official intent. Claiming that one's position "is D&D" and another isn't is just empty posturing; an attempt to inflate a personal opinion into a factual statement about what the game is "supposed" to be.
Now, that aside, I do enjoy character customization and building, and puzzling out new, interesting, and useful ways to build a character. I think a lot of people who are fans of 3.X/4E feel similarly. There can be a D&D game without it (after all, original D&D is almost entirely devoid of any character building at all), but I think it would be a better game, D&D or otherwise, if there were a wide array of character building options.
Lack of character customization is my biggest concern about whether I'll end up actually enjoying this game. Class-locked gear speaks pretty strongly towards a lack of genuine customization. I can see a decent case for doing it for weapons, for the sake of building animations for class powers, but for armor it just seems excessive. There shouldn't be any animation limitation, and as far as game balance, maybe it's a bit more of a challenge, but really, imbalance usually comes from optimizing one thing, not versatility. If a Devoted Cleric wears a Great Weapon Fighter armor, is that really likely to cause imbalance?
I personally think they should do something that's kind of a hybrid between Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2:
-From Guild Wars, they should allow anyone to equip any weapon, but restrict its usefulness if a class doesn't have an affinity to it. This is similar to the way DnD does it, whereas you must take negatives to your attack rolls.
-From Guild Wars 2, they should break up classes into certain "tiers" of armor, based on their type - Heavy, Medium and Light. You can only wear armor from the tier your class belongs to, but (obviously) multiple classes make up each tier.
This way, nothing is truly "class locked," but the game is still easily balanced as though it is.
Yay!!! I can be the same exact cleric or wizard as everyone else WOO HOOO!!!. So glad DnD is focused on playing a class one particular way and not having any freedom to play the game/class the way you want to play it...... Oh wait...
Can you imagine.... a trickster rogue wearing super heavy armor and trying to keep up with agility and stealth? LOL
Can't say it's a bad idea but think about it too, why put leather armor on a guardian fighter.
On a guardian fighter, it doesn't make sense. But if we had the freedom to not stick to class templates, some people have played bow fighters that have a lot of dexterity which makes it sensible for them to wear leather.
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yay!!! I can be the same exact cleric or wizard as everyone else WOO HOOO!!!. So glad DnD is focused on playing a class one particular way and not having any freedom to play the game/class the way you want to play it...... Oh wait...
/endsarcasm
Yeah it does not sound perfect agree on that when it comes to freedom of choice. However there are random loot drops. This will reduce the Ninja thing a lot people can not roll Need for none class items likely.
I have also followed your bickering about min/maxing. I am powergamer and WOW veteran. WOW is the best MMO that I have played and I hate Guild Wars 2 loot policy.
That said I love my casual brother. The golden path is not everlasting lootmill like WOW but neither it is silly carebear lootpolicy like Guild Wars 2 where you max your character in power in less then 2 weeks. If you play 40 hours/week it should take many months to maximize a character. I will have many characters.
Oh and I think that through Foundry content you should be able to get to max level and get good items. However best items should only be got from Cryptic made content because Foundry can be exploited and yes this game should have endgame.
Well, if we're talking about how it should take time to max characters, then it should not be like WoW (and most other MMOs) where the game starts at max level.
Anyways, I hope that the Foundry will encourage group play more, and that people will prefer to play random (as in fan generated) dungeons with friends than with PuGs, which would lessen the concern for ninja looters.
Comments
No one is arguing at least I am not. I'm trying to make a point. DnD is not just one thing, it's many things coming together to form a whole. Some people prefer one aspect of it but like you say it doesn't lessen the other aspects. Forums are a place to try and get our ideas across and reach a better understanding of one another.
Your analogy is rather faulty as you are assuming things about me that are flat out wrong.
Kind sad you don't see this.
First I quoted two people, one had nothing to do with you the second quote which did was right on par mate. Mmo's are notorious for suck <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> storylines, a couple mmo's that did have a somewhat decent storyline doesn't change this. Nowhere did I say they couldn't, reading is hard heh, but very very very rarely do they have good stories.
Anyone being honest with themselves plays single player game for a good story not mmo's.
You're claiming DnD is all about lore and story only and lets"toss" the ruleset, shenanigans DnD especially in mmo platform has to be MORE than just a good story, the ruleset will help determine how the story plays out and feels.
I'm all for a good story like many of you say it is very very important but the ruleset is equally important as that is what allows us to play out that story. The same way a really inexperienced and really sucky DM can ruin a good story so can a sucky ruleset do likewise.
Maybe you get what I am saying now, no matter how good the story if the way it is delivered ( or played ) blows then so too will the session or game. Baldur Gate was good because of the story but the gameplay was important too.
Daggerdale is a prime example of what I mean.
That said this whole thread is about class based armor and has NOTHING to do with storyline and whether this game will have a good one or not.
Alas some people are purposely being obtuse and trying to get this thread off track. Lets look at it this another way, if story line is the only thing important to this DnD game in your eyes why the big brouhaha about how the ruleset will go and why care about those that think class based armor is a not good idea?
Why not let those concerned about this have their say without jumping on them and being a smart <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about it?
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Bottom line for me on this: In D&D, customization goes far beyond one's race , racial appearance, and gear appearance in my opinion. It also envelops skills, actual gear choices and abilities. Without this latter, I fear there may be not enough to allow players to differentiate themselves from one another and express their characters how they imagine, which to me is what D&D is all about.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
roflmfaoapmp
i love you
Now, that aside, I do enjoy character customization and building, and puzzling out new, interesting, and useful ways to build a character. I think a lot of people who are fans of 3.X/4E feel similarly. There can be a D&D game without it (after all, original D&D is almost entirely devoid of any character building at all), but I think it would be a better game, D&D or otherwise, if there were a wide array of character building options.
Lack of character customization is my biggest concern about whether I'll end up actually enjoying this game. Class-locked gear speaks pretty strongly towards a lack of genuine customization. I can see a decent case for doing it for weapons, for the sake of building animations for class powers, but for armor it just seems excessive. There shouldn't be any animation limitation, and as far as game balance, maybe it's a bit more of a challenge, but really, imbalance usually comes from optimizing one thing, not versatility. If a Devoted Cleric wears a Great Weapon Fighter armor, is that really likely to cause imbalance?
-From Guild Wars, they should allow anyone to equip any weapon, but restrict its usefulness if a class doesn't have an affinity to it. This is similar to the way DnD does it, whereas you must take negatives to your attack rolls.
-From Guild Wars 2, they should break up classes into certain "tiers" of armor, based on their type - Heavy, Medium and Light. You can only wear armor from the tier your class belongs to, but (obviously) multiple classes make up each tier.
This way, nothing is truly "class locked," but the game is still easily balanced as though it is.
Oh, wait - Cryptic and balancing? Nvm.
http://nw.perfectworld.com/news/?p=806891
Says "armors are class-bound".
Yay!!! I can be the same exact cleric or wizard as everyone else WOO HOOO!!!. So glad DnD is focused on playing a class one particular way and not having any freedom to play the game/class the way you want to play it...... Oh wait...
/endsarcasm
I have also followed your bickering about min/maxing. I am powergamer and WOW veteran. WOW is the best MMO that I have played and I hate Guild Wars 2 loot policy.
That said I love my casual brother. The golden path is not everlasting lootmill like WOW but neither it is silly carebear lootpolicy like Guild Wars 2 where you max your character in power in less then 2 weeks. If you play 40 hours/week it should take many months to maximize a character. I will have many characters.
Oh and I think that through Foundry content you should be able to get to max level and get good items. However best items should only be got from Cryptic made content because Foundry can be exploited and yes this game should have endgame.
Anyways, I hope that the Foundry will encourage group play more, and that people will prefer to play random (as in fan generated) dungeons with friends than with PuGs, which would lessen the concern for ninja looters.