iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
When you play Forgotten realms, you are playing a 1967 fantasy invented by Ed Greenwood. The lore of the realms comes from him, and was YEARS before even Chanmail existed, let alone D&D. Speaking of, the "mechanics" claimed make the game are based off of a miniatures simulation strategy Chainmail which were altered in its format to not require miniatures simulation later and have pure fantasy subtext sans simulation figures. While we've seen the all but mandatory miniatures in the 3.5 and 4e rules, this was especially true in the post D&D introduction and transition to AD&D and 2nd ed AD&D.
Neverwinter nights while it could speed up to an"action level" is still a TURN BASED GAME with pausing no less. Most people fail to recognize many games are turn based actually without a pause feature. Thus the original tab target.
This is a LIVE ACTION GAME and therefore cannot, I repeat CANNOT use the traditional rules of D&D in such a manner. Without going to a whole bunch of technical, DDO is mostly live action with a turn based aspect in the MMO and even THEY lost the "pure way" of the D&D rules, degenerating into some hybrid which did NOT follow the tabletop rules and could also be considered a "tribute to the original game in its setup."
And speaking of NWN, I'm not going through and start looking at all the "houserules" in gameplay that are not DM but mechanics away from the real rules that go against the core 3.0 rules to make it work on a COMPUTER, let alone noting it's a pausable turn based system.
And the so-called "close" NWN2 was so...bad in its bugs and its control aspect, saying it was pure meant nothing it it was very very bad for years until it was "playable" enough. I also own this game and literally can play it on steam at a moment's notice. I also own or owned tabletop AND video D&D games from ALL editions...except a certain 4th ed video game that was so unfinished it was unplayable to me. I don't "have" that game.
D&D is as much about the lore as it is the "mechanics" and if one side clainms they are the "true" side, they are going to anger the other. I hav a rare side in I've done both and done it since the red box of the first set. I respect the lore and history which I know is in the game, and I respect the both evolving tabletop and computer-inspired translation like what was done for NWN and DDO except no lies for NWO of a literal translation and understand it's THEMED. I think that's the word Zeb was looking for. It's 4th ed THEMED but not a fundmental translation, thankfully.
Cause all the regurgitation the game was made on tabletop to be an easier MMO is just rumor and it STINKS as a literal direct translation in an MMO. Ask the devs to explain why there are no healing surges if you don't believe me for example.
As for the "translation" why there are class-locked items, ask the devs how hard it is to have inter-connectivity with a WHOLE bunch of items that need to be made and rendered and THEN layered on characters and not clip...now imagine having to do that with whole sets...
It's quite clear why each "class" with its corresponding walking and stances has gear made for it, which I bet there will be multiple body part pieces for each slot for each level range if done anything like other Cryptic games.
Class-locked gear is probably the gameplay feature I am most concerned about. DnD has always been about playing your character the way you want it, and trading pros and cons. I don't see why my wizard should be restricted to robes if I'm willing to suffer a penalty for wearing leather.
It would seemingly detract A LOT from character customization.
All wizards wear robes, all rogues wear leather, all clerics wear chain. BLEH.
All that above written, I still am concerned about this as well. Making a character your way is one of the mechanical cornerstones of 4e and 3e before it.
Yeah that was my first thought when I saw class-locked gear. If they are borrowing from the 'concept' of 4e, it wouldnt be unheard of to let people pick a feat that lets them use <class> armor/weapons instead of weapon/armor profs.
Feats are not done like feats most likely and are done like MMO feat tree points. Therefore you don't get "group unlocks" like the tabletop. Why? See my first reply.
Or if you want to get silly in 4e you can just play an Elf and BOOM-- Wizard with a prof for longsword and bow. Similar with dwarves and axes.
In 4e you have armor profs that go by 'type': Cloth (e.g. None) -> Leather -> Hide -> Chainmail -> Scale -> Plate. You wear armor outside of your prof you get a penalty to your attack and your reflex.
Could you make a Wizard in heavy armor? Sure. Not sure why you would, though. First it'd take a lot of your feats to do it and you lose out in your +AC from a high int. In 4e the +AC you get from a high DEX is actually DEX or INT. They both fall into the 'Reflex' category. So if you have 12 Dex, 20 INT you'd take the highest bonus (+5, from int) and that is your bonus to reflex checks and also armor IF you wear light (cloth, leather, hide) armor. It not unheard of to pick up 'Armor Prof (Leather)' since the feat has no requirements and gives ya some extra defense-- but going to hide is pretty silly since it takes 2 feats (Leather and then Hide) for basically 1 extra AC.
If you want that extra AC that bad, pick up a staff and go all 'Ye shall not pass' Staff Wizard.
See reply above this. I hope I'm being too focused on this reasoning and am missing something, but fear I cracked the developer reasons.
b00mstickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
So basically what you are saying, in a very confusing and long drawn out way, is that it wont be dnd so dont expect that lol. Im sorry but if you take away the ruleset, you don't have dnd. Most people that play/played dnd in the past didn't play a premade campaign, because, well as cryptic has said so far with the foundry, dnd at is core is about an adventure with friends and good DM's that create that content.
I just dont see it as a dnd game if you take away what makes it dnd in the first place and its not the story, although they are good. I think a better title of the game would be forgotten realms neverwinter, not dnd. No one ever said that they wanted a completely literal representation of the ruleset. But with the way all the mods are getting all defensive, sounds like its going to be some new made up stuff. So its not dnd. Lets just call it what it is then.
So basically what you are saying, in a very confusing and long drawn out way, is that it wont be dnd so dont expect that lol. Im sorry but if you take away the ruleset, you don't have dnd. Most people that play/played dnd in the past didn't play a premade campaign, because, well as cryptic has said so far with the foundry, dnd at is core is about an adventure with friends and good DM's that create that content.
I just dont see it as a dnd game if you take away what makes it dnd in the first place and its not the story, although they are good. I think a better title of the game would be forgotten realms neverwinter, not dnd. No one ever said that they wanted a completely literal representation of the ruleset. But with the way all the mods are getting all defensive, sounds like its going to be some new made up stuff. So its not dnd. Lets just call it what it is then.
Was the SAGA system D&D? Was the GURPS system? They had D&D modules, SAGA was played by Living FR for almost two years different rule-sets as different as Chainmail or the White Box is to the Rules I'm testing tonight for D&D next, I just think that D&D is D&D, Rules are very important to the min/maxers I'm more about the setting the lore and why I'm doing something not so much how..I'm not a fan of classed based gear either but for different reasons, and even though some of my friends will walk away because of the rule translations I won't for that reason.....but very well may for others.
Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
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b00mstickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
This more and more feels like the experience i had with SW:TOR. Expecting a Kotor dnd experience and then realized that it was just another wow with lightbats. I really hope that doesn't happen with this game but id be lying if i said it didn't have that same stink to it. Wish you guys the best and hope it works out.
By the logic ive seen above, it would make as much sense to call a game World of Dungeons and Dragons, or Dungeons of Warcraft, cause well that game has dungeons can't we just put dnd in the name to make it sound better? DnD isnt a story, its game. If you want story, go read the forgotten realms books.
This more and more feels like the experience i had with SW:TOR. Expecting a Kotor dnd experience and then realized that it was just another wow with lightbats. I really hope that doesn't happen with this game but id be lying if i said it didn't have that same stink to it. Wish you guys the best and hope it works out.
By the logic ive seen above, it would make as much sense to call a game World of Dungeons and Dragons, or Dungeons of Warcraft, cause well that game has dungeons can't we just put dnd in the name to make it sound better? DnD isnt a story, its game. If you want story, go read the forgotten realms books.
See that is the Min/maxers veiw...not everyone shares that sentiment and their opinion is no less valid than yours.
Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
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b00mstickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
Except dnd ruleset isn't designed for min/maxing. Thats my whole point. By not having the freedom to make your character the way you want to play it, it becomes a min max game. Once you lock classes into a specific role it becomes min/max.
I'm not trying to say that the story shouldn't be a big part of an RPG because it is. But, DnD isnt a story its a game. The first thing i think of when i see DnD is the D20 ruleset. Not the story. Now if you said forgotten realms the first thing id think of is the story, neverwinter, icewind dale ect.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This more and more feels like the experience i had with SW:TOR. Expecting a Kotor dnd experience and then realized that it was just another wow with lightbats. I really hope that doesn't happen with this game but id be lying if i said it didn't have that same stink to it. Wish you guys the best and hope it works out.
By the logic ive seen above, it would make as much sense to call a game World of Dungeons and Dragons, or Dungeons of Warcraft, cause well that game has dungeons can't we just put dnd in the name to make it sound better? DnD isnt a story, its game. If you want story, go read the forgotten realms books.
Except dnd ruleset isn't designed for min/maxing. Thats my whole point. By not having the freedom to make your character the way you want to play it, it becomes a min max game. Once you lock classes into a specific role it becomes min/max.
I'm not trying to say that the story shouldn't be a big part of an RPG because it is. But, DnD isnt a story its a game. The first thing i think of when i see DnD is the D20 ruleset. Not the story. Now if you said forgotten realms the first thing id think of is the story, neverwinter, icewind dale ect.
And I choose to enjoy the extensive game lore that we role players and power gamers demand in our campaigns too. If you don't allow lore and story, then you may leave because I'll even risk NDA here, they have LOTS of lore and story historically verified and written changing even the Nverwinter source book. No I wasn't really risking NDA, but the point is it was dramatic and I didn't have to role a diplomacy check or an intimidate check.
If I find any people who are bullying others here though because they tell others HOW to play this MMO or else, the game ends and reality get quite ugly, but nobody's doing that.
And I choose to enjoy the extensive game lore that we role players and power gamers demand in our campaigns too. If you don't allow lore and story, then you may leave because I'll even risk NDA here, they have LOTS of lore and story historically verified and written changing even the Nverwinter source book. No I wasn't really risking NDA, but the point is it was dramatic and I didn't have to role a diplomacy check or an intimidate check.
If I find any people who are bullying others here though because they tell others HOW to play this MMO or else, the game ends and reality get quite ugly, but nobody's doing that.
I wasn't aware i did any such thing lol. Nore did i say there shouldn't be accurate story telling. My point was, why call it dnd if its not dnd. You keep talking story this and story that. Which is great. I love the "forgotten realms" story. Its one of my favorites and one of the things i look forward to the most. However the other thing i had looked forward to, was well the "dungeon and dragons" part of the game title. You know the thing that makes dungeons and dragons, dungeons and dragons. Its not the story that people think of first. Its the d20 ruleset.
I didn't bully anyone, didn't call anyone out, did nothing even remotely close. Just stated my opinion on why is this game called dnd if it isn't dnd. I am sorry i hurt your feelings by doing so.
See that is the Min/maxers veiw...not everyone shares that sentiment and their opinion is no less valid than yours.
Sadly, with MMOs, you do have to consider the fact that people are going to not only min/max, but expect -you- to min-max for the sake of being competitive, and people who abstain are voluntarily withdrawing themselves out of a lot of content. It's just a sad fact of life for MMO players, and something that developers would do well to keep in mind.
I've always seen lore as being like icing on the cake; a flavor enhancer that serves to build your sense of immersion, and cake without good icing is dull, dull, dull. But the real core of any game, MMO or otherwise, is that it's gotta be just plain fun to play. The writing prowess of Orson Scott Card couldn't save Advent Rising, for example, although personally I think Orson Scott Card is overrated. And R.A Salvatore himself couldn't turn Demon Stone into a beloved classic, although I personally enjoyed the hell out of that game, despite being cliched and derivative as hell.
The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.
I wasn't aware i did any such thing lol. Nore did i say there shouldn't be accurate story telling. My point was, why call it dnd if its not dnd. You keep talking story this and story that. Which is great. I love the "forgotten realms" story. Its one of my favorites and one of the things i look forward to the most. However the other thing i had looked forward to, was well the "dungeon and dragons" part of the game title. You know the thing that makes dungeons and dragons, dungeons and dragons. Its not the story that people think of first. Its the d20 ruleset.
I didn't bully anyone, didn't call anyone out, did nothing even remotely close. Just stated my opinion on why is this game called dnd if it isn't dnd. I am sorry i hurt your feelings by doing so.
You need to qualify that statement, IT'S NOT D&D TO YOU I have been involved with D&D since the white box set, my name is in the testing credits of the 1st ed MM and a coupel other books....D&D became a min/maxer game it wasn't always so, Gary once said the numbers were just there to give a general reference of what could or couldn't be done, Dave Arenson said basically the same thing and they invented the game.
I'm not disrespecting Min/Maxers I have many friends who love this mode of play and agree with you but that viewpoint isn't the last word on what D&D is.
Sadly, with MMOs, you do have to consider the fact that people are going to not only min/max, but expect -you- to min-max for the sake of being competitive, and people who abstain are voluntarily withdrawing themselves out of a lot of content. It's just a sad fact of life for MMO players, and something that developers would do well to keep in mind.
I've always seen lore as being like icing on the cake; a flavor enhancer that serves to build your sense of immersion, and cake without good icing is dull, dull, dull. But the real core of any game, MMO or otherwise, is that it's gotta be just plain fun to play. The writing prowess of Orson Scott Card couldn't save Advent Rising, for example, although personally I think Orson Scott Card is overrated. And R.A Salvatore himself couldn't turn Demon Stone into a beloved classic, although I personally enjoyed the hell out of that game, despite being cliched and derivative as hell.
First off Best Forum name ever LOL
Oh yeah I agree, but it is absurd of them to get POed when I have a diametric viewpoint and force their style of play down the throats of others. The Min/Maxers I know play the game their way but don't get bent out of shape and say that their way is the only true D&D...because there just no such thing. D&D like Star wars is many things to many people no one is right, find what you love about D&D and play that but don't begrudge others their style.
If NO became a Munchkin wonderland I probably wouldn't play it just like I don't play DDO, I don't rant at Turbine and demand they conform either.
Oh yeah I agree, but it is absurd of them to get POed when I have a diametric viewpoint and force their style of play down the throats of others. The Min/Maxers I know play the game their way but don't get bent out of shape and say that their way is the only true D&D...because there just no such thing. D&D like Star wars is many things to many people no one is right, find what you love about D&D and play that but don't begrudge others their style.
If NO became a Munchkin wonderland I probably wouldn't play it just like I don't play DDO, I don't rant and Turbine and demand they conform either.
/shrug
I always looked for ways to compromise my lore-based immersive experience with the realities of game mechanics. Like, my fighter might have a low intelligence and charisma, and I reflect that in-game by making him borderline autistic about his love of fighting, to the exclusion of almost everything else (like personal hygiene... hence the low charisma score )
I was reading this thing a while back about how German holocaust workers tended to go crazy and kill themselves from the sheer volume of killing that they would do every day, and that same problem would happen to Finnish machine gunners repelling wave after wave of Russian conscripts for months on end (they would literally get tired of slaughtering people). So one of the ways I justify a low INT/CHA is by admitting that years spent slaughtering thousands of creatures in melee combat have left them with a slightly deranged twitch in their eye.
The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
Not saying you did. Some others...well, some had "adopted the mantle of all gamers." Not here. But it's happened.
But for some the description of what the character does to outwit is just as important as what the character mechanically does. And for some, the conquest of the crawl after hours of nonstop attacking is as useful as theplayer as the halfling who rped successfully seducing the shopkeeper's daughter.
(Hey he was a swashbuckler. and when he got caught you can believe he had to game mechanically show his skills and use his dual weilding short swords a lot not to be killed by the watch summoned for him.)
So one person's "true" sometimes is another person's meh and vice versa. Just don't discount one without seeing how it inter plays with the other is all I'm saying.
klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
edited January 2013
I'm not too worried about this, actually I saw it coming.
I would be more interested in knowing about specialization within the same build/class from a gameplay point of view.
For example, will every Guardian Fighter have the same pool of abilities to chose from or end up with the same feats? I think that's more a "maker or breaker" than class-restricted gear, something that many MMOs have already implemented one way or the other.
I'm not too worried about this, actually I saw it coming.
I would be more interested in knowing about specialization within the same build/class from a gameplay point of view.
For example, will every Guardian Fighter have the same pool of abilities to chose from or end up with the same feats? I think that's more a "maker or breaker" than class-restricted gear, something that many MMOs have already implemented one way or the other.
That is kind of where I'm coming from too, the one thing I do not want or will not tolerate from any MMo going forward is cookie cutter builds and getting screamed at because I chose not to go to some idiotic website to copypasta the flavor of the week.
That is kind of where I'm coming from too, the one thing I do not want or will not tolerate from any MMo going forward is cookie cutter builds and getting screamed at because I chose not to go to some idiotic website to copypasta the flavor of the week.
I'd also like to reset my skill points and feats and stuff anytime I want to in the game. It would encourage more experimentation, you know?
"Truth is absolute, so if you truly seek it, you can find only one answer."
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited January 2013
Mechanics are the least important part of a dungeons and dragons game. We've had interesting and fun PnP nights where the dice were barely ever rolled. It's why the editions have had such dramatic changes in the rulesets: because the rules are there to facilitate the gameplay, they don't MAKE the game.
As long as the game allows me to customize my character, and has an immersive world where my character's decisions shape the outcome of the story, and stays true to the lore, I'll be happy. In fact, I'd rather they sacrificed some of the 4e rules to make for better gameplay. A lot of the tabletop rules just wouldn't be good for an action MMO.
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b00mstickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'm not too worried about this, actually I saw it coming.
I would be more interested in knowing about specialization within the same build/class from a gameplay point of view.
For example, will every Guardian Fighter have the same pool of abilities to chose from or end up with the same feats? I think that's more a "maker or breaker" than class-restricted gear, something that many MMOs have already implemented one way or the other.
This was kind of the point i was trying to make. By them saying to not take the dnd rule set literal, they "might" be saying that we will get a wow style of class gameplay. You get what cryptic gives you. I have a feeling you wont get to pick your feats and such as you could in dnd. Ofcourse they can't comment on that as it is NDA.
I guess I didn't word what i was saying as well i should have. I tend to have that issue. But again, if you have class locked gear, that means you dont get to pick and choose your feats, which means you dont play the game/class the way you want to play it but rather how cryptic wants you to play it. Which to me is not dnd. That was the point i was trying to make this whole time and it wasn't comprehended in such a way. Again probably my fault.
I have played many games with locked gear for my character but the main problem is that i cant sell the locked gears anymore which cost a lot of money to enhance and upgrade . Hope this game can solve this problem ^^.
Mechanics are the least important part of a dungeons and dragons game. We've had interesting and fun PnP nights where the dice were barely ever rolled. It's why the editions have had such dramatic changes in the rulesets: because the rules are there to facilitate the gameplay, they don't MAKE the game.
As long as the game allows me to customize my character, and has an immersive world where my character's decisions shape the outcome of the story, and stays true to the lore, I'll be happy. In fact, I'd rather they sacrificed some of the 4e rules to make for better gameplay. A lot of the tabletop rules just wouldn't be good for an action MMO.
While in PnP you may have a point in a mmo based on DnD rulesets are important or the game can become very unpleasant very quickly, class based gear and character customization is kind of an oxy moron build wise.
The point of classed based gear is to make balancing easier for the devs by limiting build customization and it leads to very limited build choices.
I understand that some things need to be changed to fit the mmo platform but lets not use that as an excuse for every change.
This more and more feels like the experience i had with SW:TOR. Expecting a Kotor dnd experience and then realized that it was just another wow with lightbats. I really hope that doesn't happen with this game but id be lying if i said it didn't have that same stink to it. Wish you guys the best and hope it works out.
By the logic ive seen above, it would make as much sense to call a game World of Dungeons and Dragons, or Dungeons of Warcraft, cause well that game has dungeons can't we just put dnd in the name to make it sound better? DnD isnt a story, its game. If you want story, go read the forgotten realms books.
The name of the game is Neverwinter. So long as it stays true to the lore of Forgotten Realms the vapid DnD ruleset can go toss itself off a cliff.
And for the record I don't want a PnP ruleset in my MMO. That makes no sense whatsoever, and just sounds like a train-wreck.
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b00mstickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The name of the game is Neverwinter. So long as it stays true to the lore of Forgotten Realms the vapid DnD ruleset can go toss itself off a cliff.
And for the record I don't want a PnP ruleset in my MMO. That makes no sense whatsoever, and just sounds like a train-wreck.
Most DnD fans know for it to play well in a mmo platform some changes need to be made to the ruleset but blatantly saying the DND ruleset can go toss itself is downright meh.
Bottom line this game is suppose to be a mmo based on DND not a mmo based on WoW or all the other generic mmos out there.
What? Baldur's Gate and friends? Those games were memorable because of...wait for it...wait for it...their awesome stories and characters. You know...the thing you said we should be reading books for.
What? Baldur's Gate and friends? Those games were memorable because of...wait for it...wait for it...their awesome stories and characters. You know...the thing you said we should be reading books for.
You can't compare a single player game to mmo when it comes to story, I am sorry to inform you that mmo's are not known for a great story line compared to single player games.
xearrikMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 323Arc User
edited January 2013
Why are you people still arguing about lore and stories? If it's not important to you that's fine. If it is important to you that's fine.
But neither of you will be able to convince the other that they are wrong.
If lore and story doesn't make a game fun to you, what makes you think that nobody else would find it important in their games?
You my friend are a flat coke drinker. Just because carbonation doesn't make a drink any better to you, doesn't mean carbonation isn't important to everybody else.
Da kitties don't speak for me, deez kitties speak fur us all!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I'll Keep this up till beta goes live. I'll improve it soon.
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vagrantzeroMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You can't compare a single player game to mmo when it comes to story, I am sorry to inform you that mmo's are not known for a great story line compared to single player games.
Easy solution. Play more MMOs. The Secret World has an absolutely brilliant thematic setting and a fully voiced story. TOR isn't half bad either (though it still falls a bit short compared to its SRPG counterparts). LOTRO even has occasional bouts of brilliance.
Also, what was the point of your point? It had absolutely nothing to do with the post you quoted. It seemed like you couldn't actually counter the point I made (Baldur's Gate is memorable due to story) so you shifted the topic to something altogether different (MMOs can't have good stories, which is simply not the case).
Can you imagine.... a trickster rogue wearing super heavy armor and trying to keep up with agility and stealth? LOL
Can't say it's a bad idea but think about it too, why put leather armor on a guardian fighter.
Comments
Neverwinter nights while it could speed up to an"action level" is still a TURN BASED GAME with pausing no less. Most people fail to recognize many games are turn based actually without a pause feature. Thus the original tab target.
This is a LIVE ACTION GAME and therefore cannot, I repeat CANNOT use the traditional rules of D&D in such a manner. Without going to a whole bunch of technical, DDO is mostly live action with a turn based aspect in the MMO and even THEY lost the "pure way" of the D&D rules, degenerating into some hybrid which did NOT follow the tabletop rules and could also be considered a "tribute to the original game in its setup."
And speaking of NWN, I'm not going through and start looking at all the "houserules" in gameplay that are not DM but mechanics away from the real rules that go against the core 3.0 rules to make it work on a COMPUTER, let alone noting it's a pausable turn based system.
And the so-called "close" NWN2 was so...bad in its bugs and its control aspect, saying it was pure meant nothing it it was very very bad for years until it was "playable" enough. I also own this game and literally can play it on steam at a moment's notice. I also own or owned tabletop AND video D&D games from ALL editions...except a certain 4th ed video game that was so unfinished it was unplayable to me. I don't "have" that game.
D&D is as much about the lore as it is the "mechanics" and if one side clainms they are the "true" side, they are going to anger the other. I hav a rare side in I've done both and done it since the red box of the first set. I respect the lore and history which I know is in the game, and I respect the both evolving tabletop and computer-inspired translation like what was done for NWN and DDO except no lies for NWO of a literal translation and understand it's THEMED. I think that's the word Zeb was looking for. It's 4th ed THEMED but not a fundmental translation, thankfully.
Cause all the regurgitation the game was made on tabletop to be an easier MMO is just rumor and it STINKS as a literal direct translation in an MMO. Ask the devs to explain why there are no healing surges if you don't believe me for example.
As for the "translation" why there are class-locked items, ask the devs how hard it is to have inter-connectivity with a WHOLE bunch of items that need to be made and rendered and THEN layered on characters and not clip...now imagine having to do that with whole sets...
It's quite clear why each "class" with its corresponding walking and stances has gear made for it, which I bet there will be multiple body part pieces for each slot for each level range if done anything like other Cryptic games.
All that above written, I still am concerned about this as well. Making a character your way is one of the mechanical cornerstones of 4e and 3e before it.
Feats are not done like feats most likely and are done like MMO feat tree points. Therefore you don't get "group unlocks" like the tabletop. Why? See my first reply.
See reply above this. I hope I'm being too focused on this reasoning and am missing something, but fear I cracked the developer reasons.
Fair enough.
I just dont see it as a dnd game if you take away what makes it dnd in the first place and its not the story, although they are good. I think a better title of the game would be forgotten realms neverwinter, not dnd. No one ever said that they wanted a completely literal representation of the ruleset. But with the way all the mods are getting all defensive, sounds like its going to be some new made up stuff. So its not dnd. Lets just call it what it is then.
Was the SAGA system D&D? Was the GURPS system? They had D&D modules, SAGA was played by Living FR for almost two years different rule-sets as different as Chainmail or the White Box is to the Rules I'm testing tonight for D&D next, I just think that D&D is D&D, Rules are very important to the min/maxers I'm more about the setting the lore and why I'm doing something not so much how..I'm not a fan of classed based gear either but for different reasons, and even though some of my friends will walk away because of the rule translations I won't for that reason.....but very well may for others.
By the logic ive seen above, it would make as much sense to call a game World of Dungeons and Dragons, or Dungeons of Warcraft, cause well that game has dungeons can't we just put dnd in the name to make it sound better? DnD isnt a story, its game. If you want story, go read the forgotten realms books.
See that is the Min/maxers veiw...not everyone shares that sentiment and their opinion is no less valid than yours.
I'm not trying to say that the story shouldn't be a big part of an RPG because it is. But, DnD isnt a story its a game. The first thing i think of when i see DnD is the D20 ruleset. Not the story. Now if you said forgotten realms the first thing id think of is the story, neverwinter, icewind dale ect.
And I choose to enjoy the extensive game lore that we role players and power gamers demand in our campaigns too. If you don't allow lore and story, then you may leave because I'll even risk NDA here, they have LOTS of lore and story historically verified and written changing even the Nverwinter source book. No I wasn't really risking NDA, but the point is it was dramatic and I didn't have to role a diplomacy check or an intimidate check.
If I find any people who are bullying others here though because they tell others HOW to play this MMO or else, the game ends and reality get quite ugly, but nobody's doing that.
I wasn't aware i did any such thing lol. Nore did i say there shouldn't be accurate story telling. My point was, why call it dnd if its not dnd. You keep talking story this and story that. Which is great. I love the "forgotten realms" story. Its one of my favorites and one of the things i look forward to the most. However the other thing i had looked forward to, was well the "dungeon and dragons" part of the game title. You know the thing that makes dungeons and dragons, dungeons and dragons. Its not the story that people think of first. Its the d20 ruleset.
I didn't bully anyone, didn't call anyone out, did nothing even remotely close. Just stated my opinion on why is this game called dnd if it isn't dnd. I am sorry i hurt your feelings by doing so.
Sadly, with MMOs, you do have to consider the fact that people are going to not only min/max, but expect -you- to min-max for the sake of being competitive, and people who abstain are voluntarily withdrawing themselves out of a lot of content. It's just a sad fact of life for MMO players, and something that developers would do well to keep in mind.
I've always seen lore as being like icing on the cake; a flavor enhancer that serves to build your sense of immersion, and cake without good icing is dull, dull, dull. But the real core of any game, MMO or otherwise, is that it's gotta be just plain fun to play. The writing prowess of Orson Scott Card couldn't save Advent Rising, for example, although personally I think Orson Scott Card is overrated. And R.A Salvatore himself couldn't turn Demon Stone into a beloved classic, although I personally enjoyed the hell out of that game, despite being cliched and derivative as hell.
You need to qualify that statement, IT'S NOT D&D TO YOU I have been involved with D&D since the white box set, my name is in the testing credits of the 1st ed MM and a coupel other books....D&D became a min/maxer game it wasn't always so, Gary once said the numbers were just there to give a general reference of what could or couldn't be done, Dave Arenson said basically the same thing and they invented the game.
I'm not disrespecting Min/Maxers I have many friends who love this mode of play and agree with you but that viewpoint isn't the last word on what D&D is.
First off Best Forum name ever LOL
Oh yeah I agree, but it is absurd of them to get POed when I have a diametric viewpoint and force their style of play down the throats of others. The Min/Maxers I know play the game their way but don't get bent out of shape and say that their way is the only true D&D...because there just no such thing. D&D like Star wars is many things to many people no one is right, find what you love about D&D and play that but don't begrudge others their style.
If NO became a Munchkin wonderland I probably wouldn't play it just like I don't play DDO, I don't rant at Turbine and demand they conform either.
/shrug
I always looked for ways to compromise my lore-based immersive experience with the realities of game mechanics. Like, my fighter might have a low intelligence and charisma, and I reflect that in-game by making him borderline autistic about his love of fighting, to the exclusion of almost everything else (like personal hygiene... hence the low charisma score
I was reading this thing a while back about how German holocaust workers tended to go crazy and kill themselves from the sheer volume of killing that they would do every day, and that same problem would happen to Finnish machine gunners repelling wave after wave of Russian conscripts for months on end (they would literally get tired of slaughtering people). So one of the ways I justify a low INT/CHA is by admitting that years spent slaughtering thousands of creatures in melee combat have left them with a slightly deranged twitch in their eye.
But for some the description of what the character does to outwit is just as important as what the character mechanically does. And for some, the conquest of the crawl after hours of nonstop attacking is as useful as theplayer as the halfling who rped successfully seducing the shopkeeper's daughter.
(Hey he was a swashbuckler. and when he got caught you can believe he had to game mechanically show his skills and use his dual weilding short swords a lot not to be killed by the watch summoned for him.)
So one person's "true" sometimes is another person's meh and vice versa. Just don't discount one without seeing how it inter plays with the other is all I'm saying.
I would be more interested in knowing about specialization within the same build/class from a gameplay point of view.
For example, will every Guardian Fighter have the same pool of abilities to chose from or end up with the same feats? I think that's more a "maker or breaker" than class-restricted gear, something that many MMOs have already implemented one way or the other.
That is kind of where I'm coming from too, the one thing I do not want or will not tolerate from any MMo going forward is cookie cutter builds and getting screamed at because I chose not to go to some idiotic website to copypasta the flavor of the week.
I'd also like to reset my skill points and feats and stuff anytime I want to in the game. It would encourage more experimentation, you know?
As long as the game allows me to customize my character, and has an immersive world where my character's decisions shape the outcome of the story, and stays true to the lore, I'll be happy. In fact, I'd rather they sacrificed some of the 4e rules to make for better gameplay. A lot of the tabletop rules just wouldn't be good for an action MMO.
This was kind of the point i was trying to make. By them saying to not take the dnd rule set literal, they "might" be saying that we will get a wow style of class gameplay. You get what cryptic gives you. I have a feeling you wont get to pick your feats and such as you could in dnd. Ofcourse they can't comment on that as it is NDA.
I guess I didn't word what i was saying as well i should have. I tend to have that issue. But again, if you have class locked gear, that means you dont get to pick and choose your feats, which means you dont play the game/class the way you want to play it but rather how cryptic wants you to play it. Which to me is not dnd. That was the point i was trying to make this whole time and it wasn't comprehended in such a way. Again probably my fault.
While in PnP you may have a point in a mmo based on DnD rulesets are important or the game can become very unpleasant very quickly, class based gear and character customization is kind of an oxy moron build wise.
The point of classed based gear is to make balancing easier for the devs by limiting build customization and it leads to very limited build choices.
I understand that some things need to be changed to fit the mmo platform but lets not use that as an excuse for every change.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
The name of the game is Neverwinter. So long as it stays true to the lore of Forgotten Realms the vapid DnD ruleset can go toss itself off a cliff.
And for the record I don't want a PnP ruleset in my MMO. That makes no sense whatsoever, and just sounds like a train-wreck.
Bingo.
(Though to be fair, I have never played D&D, though I would like to, one day.)
This is the problem this is SUPPOSE to be A DND mmo not generic mmo with forgotten realms lore slapped on it.
Most DnD fans know for it to play well in a mmo platform some changes need to be made to the ruleset but blatantly saying the DND ruleset can go toss itself is downright meh.
Bottom line this game is suppose to be a mmo based on DND not a mmo based on WoW or all the other generic mmos out there.
Lore only does not make DnD.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
What? Baldur's Gate and friends? Those games were memorable because of...wait for it...wait for it...their awesome stories and characters. You know...the thing you said we should be reading books for.
You can't compare a single player game to mmo when it comes to story, I am sorry to inform you that mmo's are not known for a great story line compared to single player games.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
But neither of you will be able to convince the other that they are wrong.
If lore and story doesn't make a game fun to you, what makes you think that nobody else would find it important in their games?
You my friend are a flat coke drinker. Just because carbonation doesn't make a drink any better to you, doesn't mean carbonation isn't important to everybody else.
Easy solution. Play more MMOs. The Secret World has an absolutely brilliant thematic setting and a fully voiced story. TOR isn't half bad either (though it still falls a bit short compared to its SRPG counterparts). LOTRO even has occasional bouts of brilliance.
Also, what was the point of your point? It had absolutely nothing to do with the post you quoted. It seemed like you couldn't actually counter the point I made (Baldur's Gate is memorable due to story) so you shifted the topic to something altogether different (MMOs can't have good stories, which is simply not the case).
Can't say it's a bad idea but think about it too, why put leather armor on a guardian fighter.