The plan to not scale the last two campaigns and move the rest to the challenge was there from the start, closed beta.
Players reaching the caps at unscalled content is not how the counter stats supposed to work, hence was the change from 400:1 to 500:1 and to 1000:1 and yet they still overshot with the stats on the gear, and how things work. That is basic flaw in the counter stat system, with too much there is a gap, too little and you reach the cap. The caps are to prevent overstacking single stat and not 'oh we capped all stats'. I'll bet next mod the counter stats will jump up, but anyway, the whole issue with counter stats was discussed ad nauseam.
If you look for an official answer beyond "We just try things as we go".. Good luck, I really hope you will get one. I highly doubt such one exists.
6
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Still dont kno why such a big deal skme stats wont reach the cap? I mean so what?
That's not the issue at all. No one supposed to reach the caps anyway, it's a mistake the everyone reach them. The issue will be that a 23k player will have worse stat spread than a new one. Or, for example, that a 23k player and 14k player will have the same stats (simplification, but close enough to the point).
And before anyone jump about whales, skill and what not, this is bad on a general level to the game, NW model is to buy progress faster, a player who encountered some difficulty in scaled Sharandar unknowingly will think "Let me just buy some higher rank enchants - I have spare income, and I'll help the game" will be highly disappointed with the results. There is a difference between small diminishing returns improvement and no improvement at all aka cap.
But who knows, maybe no one will run that part at all, and it won't affect NW revenue. Or maybe they plan for completion token to be the next best seller instead of lockbox keys.
7
darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,261Arc User
edited May 2019
Yes, I was very surprised, that just when mod 16 arrived with all the changes, I had most stats capped (only deflection and CA but not for much), even with old gear, no legendary insignias and a mix of quality of companions, and I though "this must be a bug".
Because you know, progression, decisions, etc. Are fun. We had a similar situation before mod 6 when we didnt have caps, but hard diminishing returns, so stacking some stats like recovery was pointless after some point.
Then the first thing came to my mind was: "If is intended that we olnly focus on power and HP, then they remove from the game a fun aspect about how to build your character. "
But after think more about it: "If you have to make decisions on whtat stats you focus, then lots of people will have a very bad experience because they have no clue what they are doing.... and the number crunchers will come and tell you what stats give the best result and what values you should aim so every player that knows what is doing will stack what is optimal..."
So maybe, and I say maybe, this is the best way to give everyone an acceptable performance, but still have some room for optimization. Companions and mounts should have effects that allow this, effects that do not involve plain stats.
Maybe you guys can give players a bargaining chip to appease the masses when mod 16 hits , I’ll still play I don’t really have a issue with anything but maybe a pack with 1 free rank 14 enchantment, 1 free mount insignia 1 free companion And 1 mil AD......lol is that asking too much
Maybe you guys can give players a bargaining chip to appease the masses when mod 16 hits , I’ll still play I don’t really have a issue with anything but maybe a pack with 1 free rank 14 enchantment, 1 free mount insignia 1 free companion And 1 mil AD......lol is that asking too much
I can't speak for the masses, and no offense, but I need 1 mil AD, companion and the rest, like a fish needs an umbrella. What I want is an enjoyable game to play, especially after all the time invested in gathering my millions of AD, mounts and companions.
None taken I was just throwing an idea out there. I get what all of you are saying. I do hate a lot of players are leaving the game, lol on console even riq is taking longer and there is zero point in Req.And I’m gonna miss my fearbringers , heels and kiono but Surely things will get better, maybe mod 17 will be super fantastic!
Okay, I'm going to try and avoid "scaling" both the in-game questions and the technical (did you add enough replicas, shards, etc to network in anticipation of this mod?) - despite the fact that I think it should still be the main focus of the next talk.
There are far too many players (myself included) who are not satisfied with it and my guild & alliance is losing people and having trouble retaining new players due to mostly that issue (other bugs don't help but its really the main reason given by the people leaving or who will be leaving if it is not fixed by the time their VIP ends). Personally, I'm not leaving and don't mind several of the mod16 changes but I'm not buying anymore VIP or anything until this game shows it is actually working (to include a working scaling model) for at least a month.
So, instead, I will focus on the Powers, Feats, and Classes. First by re-emphasizing questions asked by @bpstuart as these should definitely be answered:
Powers: 1. Why was power choice on level up removed in favor of fixed powers upon level up? This choice seems antithetical to the spirit of Dungeons and Dragons.
...
1. What is the reasoning behind paring down the feat system to such a minimal degree? 2. Is this feat line up permanent or can we expect to see improved or updated choices?
... 2. With such drastic and often unnearving changes, what assurances can you give the players that are now hesitant to invest money/zen for fear of their purchases being devalued as was the Case with the Chultan tiger companion? 3. What in future will happen to improve communication between players and Developers when it comes to feedback? Will we be able to get responses to concerns?
As a long time player of D&D (in tabletop & game form) all of these are concerns I also had. In addition (some of these are similar but hopefully seeing them in two ways will not lead to the "I didn't understand the question" answer being given again):
General Question on both (honestly about all the changes:
Neverwinter Online has been out for a bit now:
How many of these changes were made due to technical debt preventing new features being added?
If it was a considerable amount, do you feel a more progressive SDLC model would have been a better choice or was the debt so bad that it required this "all-in-one" almost waterfall approach?
Powers/Feats
What changes can we expect to see with the feat trees (more feat lists now) and power choices down the line?
Are the structures dialed in and not changing or is this still on the table for changes?
If this model is "the model" and not changing, is there the possibility that new lists will be added? (like 3 choices over binary setup)
Can you address the fact that there are few variable (unique) builds possible with some classes due to feats requiring the use of specific powers?
Do you see it as a positive that choice and customization has been removed? Why?
How do you respond to those fans of the D&D model who now call for its emblem to be removed from this game - due to it removal of the character customization that is at the heart of a D&D player being invested in their character? (less my question but I've heard it in my alliance and want to put it forward)
Classes
Why are we locked into stats for a class? (i.e. all clerics having the same starting stats and no way to re-roll)
This makes it so there is no reason to even pick abilities later - everyone is going to pick the same two.
So why was this done, will it be changed, and if it isn't: why not just make it automatic?
Again, in the spirit of D&D, this removes so much of a players ability to make a unique character to RP (or just play)
Do you feel as offering a new class is "dangling the carrot" just to keep players? (might as well address this, I hear it regularly)
Were these changes to feats/powers/stats made to "pave the way" for a new class? If so, do you feel that they were worth it? (I am on the Druid or Bard bandwagons but not at cost of my current toons that this brought)
The plan to not scale the last two campaigns and move the rest to the challenge was there from the start, closed beta.
Players reaching the caps at unscalled content is not how the counter stats supposed to work, hence was the change from 400:1 to 500:1 and to 1000:1 and yet they still overshot with the stats on the gear, and how things work. That is basic flaw in the counter stat system, with too much there is a gap, too little and you reach the cap. The caps are to prevent overstacking single stat and not 'oh we capped all stats'. I'll bet next mod the counter stats will jump up, but anyway, the whole issue with counter stats was discussed ad nauseam.
If you look for an official answer beyond "We just try things as we go".. Good luck, I really hope you will get one. I highly doubt such one exists.
The problem, in that case, looks like they are indeed stuck in a place where they either enforce extra difficulty on old content, or face up to the fact that most of the time, most of the players will be at cap on whatever they need, plus stuff they don't.
The idea of not hitting cap in unscaled content was a doomed notion, after already halving the cap on a stat like Crit, and when NWO has for a long time been a "Cap it All" culture, expecting people to accept that 35 or 40% was "about right" for Critical Chance was a non starter.
It seems that to trade off the God Awful state of scaling, end game players would have to accept 40-45% Crit and 75-80% CA/Def/ArPen et al as the typical "Cap" for end game players at end game content, rather than everything capped as soon as the new mod drops its new gear.
I think it might ultimately come down to a choice between do we prefer easy old content and substantially harder end game adventures, or easier end game runs and much harder old stuff...
We’ll im done with this discussion all I can say is hopefully everyone be patient and maybe they’ll fix everything, I can’t really join in on the bashing cause I’ve taking basic coding classes and I would blow my brains out if I had to write a game like NW. Good luck guys
They should put st least 1 BIS item in each Dungeon. BoE.
1 ring, 1 artifact, 1 companion.... There are options.
I don´t agree, not everyone likes grinding dungeons, diversity to get gear like hunts, skirmish, dungeons, heroic encounters, events...etc is more important for me.
1) How is tank aggro supposed to work? It seems to work that only creatures you Damage (hit?) gain aggro from you, so threat generation in and of itself does not affect the aggro the tank has. Is this correct?
2) Is the little aggro bar supposed to work for an encounter or just individual mobs? 2a) If individual mobs how is a tank supposed to track what mobs they have aggro on given they are usually surrounded?
3) When the Mod went live we were told that classes could still be changed, is this still true?
4) If the answer to (3) is “yes”, what is the scope of the changes you are considering?
5) Are the Mod 16 Preview threads still the best place to provide feedback?
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
> @obsidiancran3 said: > Powers Questions: > > 1) How is tank aggro supposed to work? > It seems to work that only creatures you Damage (hit?) gain aggro from you, so threat generation in and of itself does not affect the aggro the tank has. Is this correct? > > 2) Is the little aggro bar supposed to work for an encounter or just individual mobs? > 2a) If individual mobs how is a tank supposed to track what mobs they have aggro on given they are usually surrounded? > > 3) When the Mod went live we were told that classes could still be changed, is this still true? > > 4) If the answer to (3) is “yes”, what is the scope of the changes you are considering? > > 5) Are the Mod 16 Preview threads still the best place to provide feedback?
Id like to 2nd this and ask what the devs propose to do about the meta already moving from a 1 1 3 to 4dps and a quality group healer in direct contradiction to one of your stated aims for mod 16
1
darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,261Arc User
> @balufunke said: > They should put st least 1 BIS item in each Dungeon. BoE. > > > > 1 ring, 1 artifact, 1 companion.... There are options. > > I don´t agree, not everyone likes grinding dungeons, diversity to get gear like hunts, skirmish, dungeons, heroic encounters, events...etc is more important for me.
Well yes I agarre. Mentioned dungeons because is what I like most. But agree with other content too being rewarded OFC.
Unfortunately Neverwinter has had a flawed PVE/PVP vision since game launch and Mr Foss is sadly emboldening that vision with some MOD16 changes.
If someone wants to do PVP ... then they change to their PVP loadout with your PVP based skills and caps. If someone wants to do PVE... then they change to your PVE loadout and so on. PvE and PvP should be two different animals. Successful MMOs do this.
I LOVE your energy for the game Mr Foss, much respect, but because you "Love" PVP, the PVE community will continue to suffer in Neverwinter.
NEVER make changes to Neverwinter if it IMPROVES PVP at the EXPENSE of PVE. It wasnt a good idea at launch and its even a worse idea now.
Why?
Your playerbase is LARGELY here for PvE. If you do not believe this Mr Foss, have your community manager poll the community.
Way back in 2012 and 2013 I polled the Neverwinter playerbase on this very forum, (and the original Neverwinter forum). ~90% of the playerbase identified as solely or majority PvE. No matter how I worded the poll.
All these years later and look at your forum thread count.
~80 of your playerbase's participation is PvE based.
So even though the above is nowhere near scientific in nature, and will not win a Nobel Prize ( awww shucks...) it does lend creedence to the fact that an overwhelming amount of interest in Neverwinter is for PvE content.
And since I brought up Creedence... sorry in advance... but I had to.
In addition, we have scheduled streams for May 21, May 30, June 4, and June 13. We are also planning a Reddit AMA for early June.
....
We are also planning another stream for the week of the 20th (Final date and time TBD). We will be providing a game status update as well as addressing questions on powers, classes, feats, stats, etc. ....
I asked my questions on this forum, as did others, but upon watching the video saw that "live questions" get priority over questions sent through the forum. This is fairly problematic for those of us who work - 11am (2pm my local time) in the middle of a workday is not going to be an easy time for a lot of people to open Twitch. I do watch it as soon as I get home while I'm working on material for my second job though and was waiting to see if even one of the forum questions was answered. You showed you had the printout then answered a single question, just one, from it.
I understand the feeling that a "live" question is more immediate, but if these live chats keep being broadcast in the middle of a workday - that's never going to be an option for some of us and the forums or reddit (also middle of the day) will be all we have. So how do we get our concerns addressed if forum questions will be ignored?
Indeed, what is even the point of this forum if it is so completely ignored (showing "we printed it" is not paying attention to what was said)?
Any chance of being able to exchange RUNESTONES before you remove the exchange for enchants? Right now it's possible to exchange enchants as many times as we want, we can get runestones for enchants too, but if we got some runestones, tested them, changed our mind and now want to exchange runestone X for runestone Y of the same rank, it's impossible. I'd like to do just that before the exchange system is taken away, ty.
Any chance of being able to exchange RUNESTONES before you remove the exchange for enchants? Right now it's possible to exchange enchants as many times as we want, we can get runestones for enchants too, but if we got some runestones, tested them, changed our mind and now want to exchange runestone X for runestone Y of the same rank, it's impossible. I'd like to do just that before the exchange system is taken away, ty.
Thomas yesterday in stream said a flat NO when asked this.... the exchange also turns off on PC on June 20.. i think they said..
Comments
Players reaching the caps at unscalled content is not how the counter stats supposed to work, hence was the change from 400:1 to 500:1 and to 1000:1 and yet they still overshot with the stats on the gear, and how things work. That is basic flaw in the counter stat system, with too much there is a gap, too little and you reach the cap. The caps are to prevent overstacking single stat and not 'oh we capped all stats'. I'll bet next mod the counter stats will jump up, but anyway, the whole issue with counter stats was discussed ad nauseam.
If you look for an official answer beyond "We just try things as we go".. Good luck, I really hope you will get one. I highly doubt such one exists.
The issue will be that a 23k player will have worse stat spread than a new one. Or, for example, that a 23k player and 14k player will have the same stats (simplification, but close enough to the point).
And before anyone jump about whales, skill and what not, this is bad on a general level to the game, NW model is to buy progress faster, a player who encountered some difficulty in scaled Sharandar unknowingly will think "Let me just buy some higher rank enchants - I have spare income, and I'll help the game" will be highly disappointed with the results.
There is a difference between small diminishing returns improvement and no improvement at all aka cap.
But who knows, maybe no one will run that part at all, and it won't affect NW revenue. Or maybe they plan for completion token to be the next best seller instead of lockbox keys.
Because you know, progression, decisions, etc. Are fun. We had a similar situation before mod 6 when we didnt have caps, but hard diminishing returns, so stacking some stats like recovery was pointless after some point.
Then the first thing came to my mind was:
"If is intended that we olnly focus on power and HP, then they remove from the game a fun aspect about how to build your character. "
But after think more about it:
"If you have to make decisions on whtat stats you focus, then lots of people will have a very bad experience because they have no clue what they are doing.... and the number crunchers will come and tell you what stats give the best result and what values you should aim so every player that knows what is doing will stack what is optimal..."
So maybe, and I say maybe, this is the best way to give everyone an acceptable performance, but still have some room for optimization. Companions and mounts should have effects that allow this, effects that do not involve plain stats.
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
There are far too many players (myself included) who are not satisfied with it and my guild & alliance is losing people and having trouble retaining new players due to mostly that issue (other bugs don't help but its really the main reason given by the people leaving or who will be leaving if it is not fixed by the time their VIP ends). Personally, I'm not leaving and don't mind several of the mod16 changes but I'm not buying anymore VIP or anything until this game shows it is actually working (to include a working scaling model) for at least a month.
So, instead, I will focus on the Powers, Feats, and Classes. First by re-emphasizing questions asked by @bpstuart as these should definitely be answered: As a long time player of D&D (in tabletop & game form) all of these are concerns I also had. In addition (some of these are similar but hopefully seeing them in two ways will not lead to the "I didn't understand the question" answer being given again):
General Question on both (honestly about all the changes:
Neverwinter Online has been out for a bit now:Powers/Feats
Classes
The idea of not hitting cap in unscaled content was a doomed notion, after already halving the cap on a stat like Crit, and when NWO has for a long time been a "Cap it All" culture, expecting people to accept that 35 or 40% was "about right" for Critical Chance was a non starter.
It seems that to trade off the God Awful state of scaling, end game players would have to accept 40-45% Crit and 75-80% CA/Def/ArPen et al as the typical "Cap" for end game players at end game content, rather than everything capped as soon as the new mod drops its new gear.
I think it might ultimately come down to a choice between do we prefer easy old content and substantially harder end game adventures, or easier end game runs and much harder old stuff...
Is it worth having that discussion?
1 ring, 1 artifact, 1 companion.... There are options.
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
Goold old fun memory
1) How is tank aggro supposed to work?
It seems to work that only creatures you Damage (hit?) gain aggro from you, so threat generation in and of itself does not affect the aggro the tank has. Is this correct?
2) Is the little aggro bar supposed to work for an encounter or just individual mobs?
2a) If individual mobs how is a tank supposed to track what mobs they have aggro on given they are usually surrounded?
3) When the Mod went live we were told that classes could still be changed, is this still true?
4) If the answer to (3) is “yes”, what is the scope of the changes you are considering?
5) Are the Mod 16 Preview threads still the best place to provide feedback?
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
> Powers Questions:
>
> 1) How is tank aggro supposed to work?
> It seems to work that only creatures you Damage (hit?) gain aggro from you, so threat generation in and of itself does not affect the aggro the tank has. Is this correct?
>
> 2) Is the little aggro bar supposed to work for an encounter or just individual mobs?
> 2a) If individual mobs how is a tank supposed to track what mobs they have aggro on given they are usually surrounded?
>
> 3) When the Mod went live we were told that classes could still be changed, is this still true?
>
> 4) If the answer to (3) is “yes”, what is the scope of the changes you are considering?
>
> 5) Are the Mod 16 Preview threads still the best place to provide feedback?
Id like to 2nd this and ask what the devs propose to do about the meta already moving from a 1 1 3 to 4dps and a quality group healer in direct contradiction to one of your stated aims for mod 16
> They should put st least 1 BIS item in each Dungeon. BoE.
>
>
>
> 1 ring, 1 artifact, 1 companion.... There are options.
>
> I don´t agree, not everyone likes grinding dungeons, diversity to get gear like hunts, skirmish, dungeons, heroic encounters, events...etc is more important for me.
Well yes I agarre. Mentioned dungeons because is what I like most. But agree with other content too being rewarded OFC.
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
Unfortunately Neverwinter has had a flawed PVE/PVP vision since game launch and Mr Foss is sadly emboldening that vision with some MOD16 changes.
If someone wants to do PVP ... then they change to their PVP loadout with your PVP based skills and caps. If someone wants to do PVE... then they change to your PVE loadout and so on. PvE and PvP should be two different animals. Successful MMOs do this.
I LOVE your energy for the game Mr Foss, much respect, but because you "Love" PVP, the PVE community will continue to suffer in Neverwinter.
NEVER make changes to Neverwinter if it IMPROVES PVP at the EXPENSE of PVE. It wasnt a good idea at launch and its even a worse idea now.
Why?
Your playerbase is LARGELY here for PvE. If you do not believe this Mr Foss, have your community manager poll the community.
Way back in 2012 and 2013 I polled the Neverwinter playerbase on this very forum, (and the original Neverwinter forum). ~90% of the playerbase identified as solely or majority PvE. No matter how I worded the poll.
All these years later and look at your forum thread count.
~80 of your playerbase's participation is PvE based.
So even though the above is nowhere near scientific in nature, and will not win a Nobel Prize ( awww shucks...) it does lend creedence to the fact that an overwhelming amount of interest in Neverwinter is for PvE content.
And since I brought up Creedence... sorry in advance... but I had to.
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I understand the feeling that a "live" question is more immediate, but if these live chats keep being broadcast in the middle of a workday - that's never going to be an option for some of us and the forums or reddit (also middle of the day) will be all we have. So how do we get our concerns addressed if forum questions will be ignored?
Indeed, what is even the point of this forum if it is so completely ignored (showing "we printed it" is not paying attention to what was said)?
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