greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,154Arc User
Zen: spend it, hoard it, Cryptic got their money for it, so they don't care what you do with it.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
And the "recycled zen" is my term for zen that was gained without paying for it with cash, nothing more. Cryptic cannot make any money on recycled zen, only on the zen bought with cash.
You are still not getting it: Every ZEN that goes through the exchange has to be bought by someone. As soon as it is spend for an item or whatever it is gone.
And the "recycled zen" is my term for zen that was gained without paying for it with cash, nothing more. Cryptic cannot make any money on recycled zen, only on the zen bought with cash.
You are still not getting it: Every ZEN that goes through the exchange has to be bought by someone. As soon as it is spend for an item or whatever it is gone.
That is true, as far as it goes. But, many, many, many Zen is not spent "soon", but is instead hoarded to be spent on one of the twice per year sales.
The issue i'm talking about is the fact that Zen is hoarded by players for the sole purpose of profit, which wasn't the intention of ZAX. And the "recycled zen" is my term for zen that was gained without paying for it with cash, nothing more. Cryptic cannot make any money on recycled zen, only on the zen bought with cash. And its my opinion that the profit cycle that uses recycled zen is what is causing a large portion of the AD backlog. when zen, recycled or not, is used to purchase items on the market that get used (like keys and packs), then that zen is properly used, imo. When the ZAX is used to hoard recycled zen (for whatever reason) then the ZAX gets backlogged because the available zen in the entire system isn't getting used as intended.
several means of fixing this are: limiting the maximum of "recycled zen" to a set value, moving the wards out of the zen market and into the bazaar and setting items in the exchange to BTA. There are more, but i believe these will help greatly to reducing the backlog.
Like I stated, I know plenty of players doing the sale flipping of zen items and generating millions and million of AD. Why is this acceptable? When I talk to the players using the flipping method, they defend that view to no end. When I state, what if the dev remove it, first thing they mention is that the game would close down because cryptic wouldn't make any money because a new player is more willing to sell zen for 500 AD than at 300.
Let me make this perfectly clear, if the player is new and does not know about the zen exchange it won't matter if the AD to Zen is 500 or 300 that player will still exchange if they want to buy an item in the AH. Said player will pay more in zen if the exchange is at 350 and not 500 to acquire the item in the AH that the player wants and that would allow cryptic to earn more money and not less.
0
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
The issue i'm talking about is the fact that Zen is hoarded by players for the sole purpose of profit, which wasn't the intention of ZAX. And the "recycled zen" is my term for zen that was gained without paying for it with cash, nothing more. Cryptic cannot make any money on recycled zen, only on the zen bought with cash. And its my opinion that the profit cycle that uses recycled zen is what is causing a large portion of the AD backlog. when zen, recycled or not, is used to purchase items on the market that get used (like keys and packs), then that zen is properly used, imo. When the ZAX is used to hoard recycled zen (for whatever reason) then the ZAX gets backlogged because the available zen in the entire system isn't getting used as intended.
several means of fixing this are: limiting the maximum of "recycled zen" to a set value, moving the wards out of the zen market and into the bazaar and setting items in the exchange to BTA. There are more, but i believe these will help greatly to reducing the backlog.
Like I stated, I know plenty of players doing the sale flipping of zen items and generating millions and million of AD. Why is this acceptable? When I talk to the players using the flipping method, they defend that view to no end. When I state, what if the dev remove it, first thing they mention is that the game would close down because cryptic wouldn't make any money because a new player is more willing to sell zen for 500 AD than at 300.
Let me make this perfectly clear, if the player is new and does not know about the zen exchange it won't matter if the AD to Zen is 500 or 300 that player will still exchange if they want to buy an item in the AH. Said player will pay more in zen if the exchange is at 350 and not 500 to acquire the item in the AH that the player wants and that would allow cryptic to earn more money and not less.
Why is this not acceptable? What is your issue of other people making millions on millions of people who can't wait and convert on their on? If someone doens't have the patience to wait a week/month for their zen then they pay. You still didn't provide any argument to why is this a problem.
The other claim, of cryptic will make more, is also only an opinion, and a false one, explained easily by the same issue above, people who can't wait (but have free income), are more likely to use RM to buy zen over waiting for the ZAX, especially if they can profit from it. The entire voucher / sudden weekend sales system is made to encourage exactly this behavior.
"Oh I got a nice 40% key voucher, which is valid for 60 minutes, ZAX will take a month, what to do?" "Ok, lets put 10$"
Third, that people will buy more ZEN due to prices will remain the same but ZAX will be lower is also false, as shown by historical prices of items. The ZAX was tracked for years, and prices are marked controlled, if all equal and legendary mount price will go from 100$ (post conversion) to 200$ it doesn't mean that suddenly every person who considered / will buy for 100$ will also buy for 200$. This is basic economics of price equilibrium, supply and demand, and the assumption above, on which the entire argument of "cryptic will make more" is nothing more than a false assumption.
Where all indicators show that a light backlog is more beneficial than not to the company.
The issue i'm talking about is the fact that Zen is hoarded by players for the sole purpose of profit, which wasn't the intention of ZAX. And the "recycled zen" is my term for zen that was gained without paying for it with cash, nothing more. Cryptic cannot make any money on recycled zen, only on the zen bought with cash. And its my opinion that the profit cycle that uses recycled zen is what is causing a large portion of the AD backlog. when zen, recycled or not, is used to purchase items on the market that get used (like keys and packs), then that zen is properly used, imo. When the ZAX is used to hoard recycled zen (for whatever reason) then the ZAX gets backlogged because the available zen in the entire system isn't getting used as intended.
several means of fixing this are: limiting the maximum of "recycled zen" to a set value, moving the wards out of the zen market and into the bazaar and setting items in the exchange to BTA. There are more, but i believe these will help greatly to reducing the backlog.
Like I stated, I know plenty of players doing the sale flipping of zen items and generating millions and million of AD. Why is this acceptable? When I talk to the players using the flipping method, they defend that view to no end. When I state, what if the dev remove it, first thing they mention is that the game would close down because cryptic wouldn't make any money because a new player is more willing to sell zen for 500 AD than at 300.
Let me make this perfectly clear, if the player is new and does not know about the zen exchange it won't matter if the AD to Zen is 500 or 300 that player will still exchange if they want to buy an item in the AH. Said player will pay more in zen if the exchange is at 350 and not 500 to acquire the item in the AH that the player wants and that would allow cryptic to earn more money and not less.
Why is this not acceptable? What is your issue of other people making millions on millions of people who can't wait and convert on their on? If someone doens't have the patience to wait a week/month for their zen then they pay. You still didn't provide any argument to why is this a problem.
The other claim, of cryptic will make more, is also only an opinion, and a false one, explained easily by the same issue above, people who can't wait (but have free income), are more likely to use RM to buy zen over waiting for the ZAX, especially if they can profit from it. The entire voucher / sudden weekend sales system is made to encourage exactly this behavior.
"Oh I got a nice 40% key voucher, which is valid for 60 minutes, ZAX will take a month, what to do?" "Ok, lets put 10$"
Third, that people will buy more ZEN due to prices will remain the same but ZAX will be lower is also false, as shown by historical prices of items. The ZAX was tracked for years, and prices are marked controlled, if all equal and legendary mount price will go from 100$ (post conversion) to 200$ it doesn't mean that suddenly every person who considered / will buy for 100$ will also buy for 200$. This is basic economics of price equilibrium, supply and demand, and the assumption above, on which the entire argument of "cryptic will make more" is nothing more than a false assumption.
Where all indicators show that a light backlog is more beneficial than not to the company.
Both sides at this point are making speculations about the profits from zen when the exchange is at 350 or when it is at 500. That is the truth and I can accept it we don't know this. We can all guess what is a good exchange value 500, 450, 400, etc.. but we don't know as we don't have their books to review and determine profit levels and how much zen is being sold vs. the exchange, etc... that is their data and they will use that to help drive the zen exchange.
As for buying 1K zen for a 40% off key, screw that.... I would rather just sit on the exchange and just buy as many keys as possible during a 40% off sale than buy one key at 40% off. A 20 pack of keys at 40% off is cheaper than 10 individual keys at 40% off. You talk patient there patience.... Also you are speculating that a person would put $10 into the game for a key, most players I know won't!
Also we all know that most keys are not worth 75 zen, so if a player is smart they should hold off and wait on the exchange and buy a 20 pack if they can when it is at 40% off, that is a better value.
All I know is I at least provided some thoughts on how to resolve the situation for zen exchange whereas you and other defending the flipping issue are simply defending your profits from flipping. I flip but I don't go for 100% or even 40% profit. I stick to 10-25% and due to the 10% fee I never make 25%. I make around 10% if I am lucky and I do this to irk those trying to flip for 50-100% and when I do this I do thousands of items after a group of players set the value only to make them lower their prices or to simply see them lose sales. Yeah I'm that guy and I do it to irk others who think it is ok to flip and rip others off like they do.
I than take my profits and dump into a guild that needs AD in my alliance. I than rinse and repeat to ensure players are not overly ripping each other off.
0
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited December 2018
1. I've backed the reasoning by simple economic rules, and the fact that there is a mechanism in game of timed vouchers and flash discount to benefit from the backlog wait times. You assert that Cryptic will benefit more, I've only claimed that that assertion as fact is actually not a fact, and an assumption, with clear indicators that counter it - meaning false assumption.
2. Why are you bringing yourself as any valid example? People do not have patience for the ZAX and buy on AH, this is obvious, otherwise there would be no demand. So what is your point here? That some people that you know do that or this? Irrelevant.
3. I did not support either way, do not strawman, you claim it is not acceptable to make the profit, I've asked why it is so. Per your own words you do things just in-spite. You have a personal issue here, that has nothing to do with an economic issue.
4. You call it ripping, where no one is getting ripped, it is simple supply and demand, I don't understand why it is so hard to understand. Those that flip do not hold the system hostage, nor it's a monopoly, or exclusive system, anyone and everyone are free to use the ZAX, wait, and get those wards without paying you 10%.
Buying and selling using sales is simply investing to make a profit. Impatient buyers will often pay more to get it sooner. When ordering items online, isn't there usually a delivery fee as well as an express delivery option at an extra cost? Same thing imo
For all those that claim there is no way cryptic is losing money, my number 1 issue with AD/Zen exchange is the infiltration it provides for RMT websites/players. A player can play 4 days out of the year and make a killing by abusing this system. As stated before, they can double their AD, so RMT'ers start with 10 mil AD can come in twice a year during the sales, and twice to post their wards, net a profit of 30 mil AD per year, and sell 20 of that profit for RMT, and have 20 mil to double their profits the following year.
1. I've backed the reasoning by simple economic rules, and the fact that there is a mechanism in game of timed vouchers and flash discount to benefit from the backlog wait times. You assert that Cryptic will benefit more, I've only claimed that that assertion as fact is actually not a fact, and an assumption, with clear indicators that counter it - meaning false assumption.
2. Why are you bringing yourself as any valid example? People do not have patience for the ZAX and buy on AH, this is obvious, otherwise there would be no demand. So what is your point here? That some people that you know do that or this? Irrelevant.
3. I did not support either way, do not strawman, you claim it is not acceptable to make the profit, I've asked why it is so. Per your own words you do things just in-spite. You have a personal issue here, that has nothing to do with an economic issue.
4. You call it ripping, where no one is getting ripped, it is simple supply and demand, I don't understand why it is so hard to understand. Those that flip do not hold the system hostage, nor it's a monopoly, or exclusive system, anyone and everyone are free to use the ZAX, wait, and get those wards without paying you 10%.
1. You used logic from the real world to apply to a game economy. It has some merit; however, Cryptic has been trying to lower the exchange for quite a while and even stated they wanted it around 300, so if the company wants it at that level there is a reason for it, profits! Not simply to satisfy the customers waiting for the exchange but so they can earn more money. A company wouldn't want to lower this if they would lose money would they. My guess is they want it lower for higher revenue, not lower. This is an assumption based on all the changes they have made to the game trying to lower AD generation methods along with wanting to lower the exchange. There has to be a reason for the company wanting it lower, and my money is on them earning more money. That is why I continue to argue the lower the exchange the more Cryptic will earn.
2. You have both type of players who are patient and those that are not. You assumed an impatient player would spend money, not all impatient players would, some, maybe many, would just delete it and move on because they don't have the real world funds to buy zen. Patient players would hold onto those bags until they have zen just in case they got that coupon. And your assumption about someone being impatient is irrelevant since it does not always relate to more zen being bought; we both have many assumption on our view and those assumptions we use are designed to strengthen our stance.
3. I'm helping the community by offering a lower price on an item when the item is off sale, its a deal as my price is lower than converting to and buying with zen. I maybe sticking it to the players hoping to flip and earn a profit but its not my fault they are over charging their fellow gamers and NWO community. That on them to be better towards the community they are a part of in game and not on me. They should be focused on trying to help others out a bit instead of focused on making such a big profit.
4. Supply and demand, LMAO....the reason it is ripping the players off is the supply for zen is being consumed by those flipping. Than because the exchange is backlog a player that wants to use ZAX to buy wards has to wait X amount of time and that either forces them to buy the item through the AH at a much higher price point than it is worth or buy zen to buy the ward. The later benefits the company and the impatient player with real world funds would use this but the reality is a truly impatient player with real world funds would already have a ward or already bought the highest rank enchantment; therefore the impatient player ranking typically is a lower geared player that over pays on a zen item. I have seen 10 pres wards sell for 80-90K before. That is truly ripping another player off.
You have your stance I have mine and we should agree to disagree. You see your views as logical and I see mine as logical. The final decision on what will happen is in the hands of the devs. I want zen items bound. IMO, it definitely would have the biggest positive impact to the ZAX.
2
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited December 2018
No, logical, is when there is a support to an argument, and a logical transition, for example, Modus ponens. There is no "agree to disagree" when one side asserts things as facts, when they are not.
1. This is a different issue, that doesn't contradict anything, where a game is 'healthy' and can be called f2p, more players -> more revenue (at least that what Cryptic thinks, but in some aspects the game needs minimum of f2p players to function, can't have ghost town ).
2. I've never said all will. I've brought an example of where the backlog encourages players to spend money, and I hope there is no argument that it works very well on at least some players. Plenty of examples around.
3+4. The ZAX is not allowed to some players? "Forces them to buy"? How anyone can force someone to buy on the AH? The ZAX is available to everyone exactly the same way, what prevents anyone from converting exactly like the people who flip, wait the time, and buy on the ZEN store?
................... I had a interesting thought. What would happen if zen had an expiration date on it? For instance, if zen is not used for a week, it is sent to the ZAX and converted to AD automatically. Prob wouldn't happen but would certainly work in the ZAX favor.
2
greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,154Arc User
Uh, lots of screaming. You pay money to get zen and all of a sudden the money you put into the game is effectively worthless because someone decided you need to spend YOUR money within a specific timeframe.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
2
adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
................... I had a interesting thought. What would happen if zen had an expiration date on it? For instance, if zen is not used for a week, it is sent to the ZAX and converted to AD automatically. Prob wouldn't happen but would certainly work in the ZAX favor.
What would happen? A lot of players would probably quit the game in disgust. This has to be one of the worst ideas I have heard in a while.
I picked up a character slot so you forgot what we got it for. Then you have put the limit for the account to collect the money. When we get zen no limit but can be done immediately exchance.
0
kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
Closed at OP's request.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Comments
Let me make this perfectly clear, if the player is new and does not know about the zen exchange it won't matter if the AD to Zen is 500 or 300 that player will still exchange if they want to buy an item in the AH. Said player will pay more in zen if the exchange is at 350 and not 500 to acquire the item in the AH that the player wants and that would allow cryptic to earn more money and not less.
The other claim, of cryptic will make more, is also only an opinion, and a false one, explained easily by the same issue above, people who can't wait (but have free income), are more likely to use RM to buy zen over waiting for the ZAX, especially if they can profit from it. The entire voucher / sudden weekend sales system is made to encourage exactly this behavior.
"Oh I got a nice 40% key voucher, which is valid for 60 minutes, ZAX will take a month, what to do?"
"Ok, lets put 10$"
Third, that people will buy more ZEN due to prices will remain the same but ZAX will be lower is also false, as shown by historical prices of items.
The ZAX was tracked for years, and prices are marked controlled, if all equal and legendary mount price will go from 100$ (post conversion) to 200$ it doesn't mean that suddenly every person who considered / will buy for 100$ will also buy for 200$.
This is basic economics of price equilibrium, supply and demand, and the assumption above, on which the entire argument of "cryptic will make more" is nothing more than a false assumption.
Where all indicators show that a light backlog is more beneficial than not to the company.
Both sides at this point are making speculations about the profits from zen when the exchange is at 350 or when it is at 500. That is the truth and I can accept it we don't know this. We can all guess what is a good exchange value 500, 450, 400, etc.. but we don't know as we don't have their books to review and determine profit levels and how much zen is being sold vs. the exchange, etc... that is their data and they will use that to help drive the zen exchange.
As for buying 1K zen for a 40% off key, screw that.... I would rather just sit on the exchange and just buy as many keys as possible during a 40% off sale than buy one key at 40% off. A 20 pack of keys at 40% off is cheaper than 10 individual keys at 40% off. You talk patient there patience.... Also you are speculating that a person would put $10 into the game for a key, most players I know won't!
Also we all know that most keys are not worth 75 zen, so if a player is smart they should hold off and wait on the exchange and buy a 20 pack if they can when it is at 40% off, that is a better value.
All I know is I at least provided some thoughts on how to resolve the situation for zen exchange whereas you and other defending the flipping issue are simply defending your profits from flipping. I flip but I don't go for 100% or even 40% profit. I stick to 10-25% and due to the 10% fee I never make 25%. I make around 10% if I am lucky and I do this to irk those trying to flip for 50-100% and when I do this I do thousands of items after a group of players set the value only to make them lower their prices or to simply see them lose sales. Yeah I'm that guy and I do it to irk others who think it is ok to flip and rip others off like they do.
I than take my profits and dump into a guild that needs AD in my alliance. I than rinse and repeat to ensure players are not overly ripping each other off.
2. Why are you bringing yourself as any valid example? People do not have patience for the ZAX and buy on AH, this is obvious, otherwise there would be no demand. So what is your point here? That some people that you know do that or this? Irrelevant.
3. I did not support either way, do not strawman, you claim it is not acceptable to make the profit, I've asked why it is so.
Per your own words you do things just in-spite. You have a personal issue here, that has nothing to do with an economic issue.
4. You call it ripping, where no one is getting ripped, it is simple supply and demand, I don't understand why it is so hard to understand. Those that flip do not hold the system hostage, nor it's a monopoly, or exclusive system, anyone and everyone are free to use the ZAX, wait, and get those wards without paying you 10%.
2. You have both type of players who are patient and those that are not. You assumed an impatient player would spend money, not all impatient players would, some, maybe many, would just delete it and move on because they don't have the real world funds to buy zen. Patient players would hold onto those bags until they have zen just in case they got that coupon. And your assumption about someone being impatient is irrelevant since it does not always relate to more zen being bought; we both have many assumption on our view and those assumptions we use are designed to strengthen our stance.
3. I'm helping the community by offering a lower price on an item when the item is off sale, its a deal as my price is lower than converting to and buying with zen. I maybe sticking it to the players hoping to flip and earn a profit but its not my fault they are over charging their fellow gamers and NWO community. That on them to be better towards the community they are a part of in game and not on me. They should be focused on trying to help others out a bit instead of focused on making such a big profit.
4. Supply and demand, LMAO....the reason it is ripping the players off is the supply for zen is being consumed by those flipping. Than because the exchange is backlog a player that wants to use ZAX to buy wards has to wait X amount of time and that either forces them to buy the item through the AH at a much higher price point than it is worth or buy zen to buy the ward. The later benefits the company and the impatient player with real world funds would use this but the reality is a truly impatient player with real world funds would already have a ward or already bought the highest rank enchantment; therefore the impatient player ranking typically is a lower geared player that over pays on a zen item. I have seen 10 pres wards sell for 80-90K before. That is truly ripping another player off.
You have your stance I have mine and we should agree to disagree. You see your views as logical and I see mine as logical. The final decision on what will happen is in the hands of the devs. I want zen items bound. IMO, it definitely would have the biggest positive impact to the ZAX.
There is no "agree to disagree" when one side asserts things as facts, when they are not.
1. This is a different issue, that doesn't contradict anything, where a game is 'healthy' and can be called f2p, more players -> more revenue (at least that what Cryptic thinks, but in some aspects the game needs minimum of f2p players to function, can't have ghost town ).
2. I've never said all will. I've brought an example of where the backlog encourages players to spend money, and I hope there is no argument that it works very well on at least some players. Plenty of examples around.
3+4. The ZAX is not allowed to some players? "Forces them to buy"? How anyone can force someone to buy on the AH?
The ZAX is available to everyone exactly the same way, what prevents anyone from converting exactly like the people who flip, wait the time, and buy on the ZEN store?
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!