I realize that my tests may seem naive But ... For two days, I spent 2/3 of my gold and most of AD. On the preview server, I can afford it, however, when mod 15 drop to live... ughh ... I need to know what to strive for, how to dispose of what I have. I have a limited amount of gold, I need to find a way that I will be able to enjoy the new workshop. RNG did not allow me to get Gond, so I have to rely on what I will receive after exchanging my assets. If my thoughts also help someone else, I will only be happy. For now, the idea is to complete artisans according to the following formula: for gathering - needs those who will have low commissions and high speed, at the expense of their special skills. The remaining stats should be balanced, with emphasis on focus. For alchemy, jewelcrafting and blacksmithing, I need high quality epic artisans. With a maximum high focus.
I would like to see all available artisans in order to be able to test different dependencies, but I am afraid that the devs have specifically "spoiled" us this possibility. To keep us in suspense. Exactly the same as for other items, which "are but they do not exist".
Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
@mushellka I think you've done a good job with your testing. I appreciate it. I was originally thinking that artisans for Gathering would be best if they had 20% or 25% chance of Dab Hand (double results), low commission, high focus, and high speed, in that order. Your tests are causing me to question that a bit. I still think Dab Hand will be important because it will be more resources without the attendant commission. I also think Dab Hand could be important for Jewelcrafting since you can get double results when making the gems.
One thing I wonder about is this: Is Dab Hand as a special skill possible on artisans for other professions? The reason I ask is because it does not have any effect when creating an actual product, like boots, belts, armor, rings, necklaces, weapons, etc. It's only useful in Gathering and Jewelcrafting, and it's only useful in Jewelcrafting when turning raw gems (raw peridot, raw sapphire, raw black opal, etc) into polished gems (peridot, sapphire, black opal, etc). So for JC I could see having an artisan with Dab Hand for turning out the gems, and then having an artisan with a different special skill for whatever else you're planning to do - possibly having several different artisans with different special skills depending on what you're making.
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mrvincent1959Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 740Arc User
I just wanted to say that it's really been a pleasure reading this feedback thread. So many people working hard to test the game for them.
This new profession system wont be perfect and there will need to be adjustments going into the future, but it's infinitely better imo than what was there before and completely opens up the game and gives us more to do. More story lines/rewards can now be added to the South Seas Trading Company via trade with the game.
Combined with the new dungeon system and return of the old dungeons(not in preview yet), also the fact that we aren't getting a grindy campaign zone, this mod represents a major turning point in the game.
I will try to test my blue artisan with a 25% chance for a special "dab hand" skill. I will do 100 "Adamentine File". we will see how often we will get with the double number of items. we will also see how often the skill is activated. Blue artisan has a 25% chance of "dab hand" and only a small chance to make a high quality item. (4%)
The result I got surprised me. This is the first time that something in this game is consistent with the description for 100 attempts, the skill "dab hand" came in 27 times, of which 22 times it was managed to create ordinary items, and 5 times high quality items, one attempt was burned. As a curiosity, I note that "dab hand" seems to be drops in series. 3-4 times for a row, and then a break for 10-15 items.
Generally, I like this artisan, I hope that it will not be a nerf and that I will get it on the live server : )
Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
@mushellka Wow! Thanks for doing that! @asterdahl had said Dab Hand wouldn't be useful outside of the situations I'd mentioned. Apparently it will be useful for making other things that are used in crafting in order to make actual products. Very useful information. You're awesome!
This question was asked before, but there is no answer that I can find to it I believe it may be something overlooked and therefore a bug:
There are no recipes that use Bag of Crystals, Bag of Gems or Bag of Jewels (that I can find), what use will they have? Same goes for Wand of Detect Aberrant and Wand of Detect Demons. They currently are sitting in the supplies bag for Professions.
IMO they should be translated into tickets for the new supplies. I would guess 100-120 tickets would be the proper exchange rate for the Bag of Jewels, 50-60 for Bag of Gems and 10-15 for the Bag of Crystals.
If possible, I would like some clarification on the trade-in system for tools and artisans. Currently I have a number of Epic tools and Epic crafters. (These aren't super valuable but they did in fact cost me quite a bit of Zen, Dil, time and effort to acquire)
Let's forget for a while about the arbitrary complexity, randomness, and artificial scarcity that Cryptic is introducing in the new system as smoke and mirrors, so they can in fact take away everything you have spent on professions to date and replace it with all new things you can spend Zen on. Let's just look at pure functionality of the products that Cryptic already sold to us.
Currently, if I have 4 Epic Craftsman, I can do 4 high-level tasks, or I can use those craftsmen to speed up 1-3 tasks. They will execute these tasks efficiently and cost effectively, simultaneously. I can easily schedule the time my tasks take against my own schedule, and decide when to log back on and restart them. I can also send those craftsmen around to various other characters if they are needed to complete a task, or, if I no longer desire that profession, I can sell them back to the market.
Currently, if I have 4 Epic tools, I can use them to enhance 4 tasks, or provide even higher crit and benefits, up to something like 60-80% crit chance, on a single task. Or lesser chances on 2-3 tasks. Again, if needed, I can ship them over to other characters, and if I stop using them, I can sell them on the market.
The current system appears that I will need to trade in 10 Epic craftsman for a voucher to get a (random?) craftsman in return. Or I can trade in 20-40 Epic tools for another voucher to get a (random?) tool in return. (I haven't space for installing Preview atm so please correct me if these are wrong)
Even if I do cash them all in and get lucky and get a great artisan I really like... he is still only 1 artisan, capable of doing only 1 task at a time (even if I can set him up to produce indefinitely, he is only doing 1 task at a time). Again, same for tools.
I'm having some difficulty in understanding how Cryptic can justify taking away literally dozens of items that I have already paid for, and replacing them with a voucher to maybe receive one single decent item in return?
If a voucher costs 200,000, and I cash in all my guys and find I have only 140,000 points... what do I do then? I'd also like to ask if these new artisans are tradeable, transferable, account bound, or char bound? Same for tools.
as i read through all these posts, i can find absolutely no reason to even bother anymore with professions. If its going to cost gold, time and zen to get less out of it, whats the point? they seem to have tuned it into a complicated slot machine that you will never win at, and robbed people of any real progress they already made in the existing proffesions. what exactly was so wrong with the old one?
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zephyriahMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,980Arc User
The current system appears that I will need to trade in 10 Epic craftsman for a voucher to get a (random?) craftsman in return. Or I can trade in 20-40 Epic tools for another voucher to get a (random?) tool in return. (I haven't space for installing Preview atm so please correct me if these are wrong)
This thread and the patch notes have most of the correct info. I'll correct a few of your misconceptions, but the rest are up to you.
As it is currently on preview, the vouchers from tools and artisans can be exchanged for tools or worker recruitment. There is no random, you buy the tool you want. The vouchers are exchangeable between your characters, the tools are not. The current rate on preview will allow the exchange of the epic tools for 5000 voucher points for the highest level new tool is also 5000 voucher points. The lower level tools redeem and cost less.
Any workers you acquire are bound, they will be no trading/selling of workers themselves. You will get 4 common workers to start, 2 gatherers and 2 in profession of your choice. You will also get more workers for free based on the number of slots you have open, 8 max. 2 low tier, 3 medium tier and 3 epic. If you do not have 9 slots unlocked, you will lose the option to get the highest workers, based on the number of slots you did unlock. For the workers obtained through this, you select the profession. More will workers will be acquired for free as the apply to work for you. As you increase the level of your workshop, higher quality workers will apply. At rank 4, it will be possible to get epics. Chance of this is unknown.
The 200,000 worker voucher will allow you select the skill, but will be rng on quality. The Zen store workers will also be RNG on the quality, but you never "need" to buy any workers. They will keep applying to your workshop as you staff it. Dismiss workers when you get a better one. Currently, for certain uses the common workers can be more cost-effective than the Epic. The higher level workers tend to have higher commissions and and cost more to use. The trade-in value of workers is higher than for tools. I don't have the figures on hand. I wouldn't get too hung up on the cost of the worker voucher, yet. I believe the exchange rate is still being considered based on feedback. But, it may not change.
The current worker Max is 32, but may be raised based on a comment in this thread. 31 is the max you could possibly need, so one slot extra. The 31 figure I use is to allow 4 workers in each crafting profession to be able to run 3 orders and rush with the 4th in each profession. In gathering you cannot rush, so 3 workers is good. That would be 28 crafters and 3 gatherers if you run all skills.
The number of tools needed however is quite a bit higher. Even though it is 1 worker, 1 tools per task, gathering uses several different tools and you would need 3 of each if you want to craft all the skill lines.
Speed and quality are still factors in crafting, but are based on the stats of your artisans and tools rather than an using increased number of them as in the current system.
@strathkin you make a very common error. You think that your subset of information shows a complete picture. You then write a wall of text explaining your thoughts based on a limited subset of information.
I have read your meandering posts. You have misinformation and lots of speculation mixed with very little facts. You don't seem to understand basic statistics and distribution of random numbers.
My posts list out the details I see in my subset of information. People can view my data and come to their own conclusions, adding what I see to their knowledge base.
As I have posted and others have agreed, there is not enough difference in stats between common, rare and epic artisans. Your posts disagree with this basic issue that many people have.
Another major issue I see is based on other people posting about MC recipes added to what I see on Test. The chance of failure in the new system is greater than in the current system. IMHO, a large part of this could be solved by increasing the stats of the rare and epic artisans.
Another issue people bring up is gold. The cost to make recipes seems to be too high based on their analysis. It is unclear if the developers are adding ways to get more gold and/or if they are correcting issues that we had with insignias not working properly. Many people have posted regarding the overall decrease in gold equivalents from drops.
LOL! I think your being unfair - and closed your mind to possibilities, cause Elves see it...
PS: This Elf has a business degree, and understand statistical analysis, though I admit this is by no means that, just a series of well made observations.
Perhaps after you're read this as presented, you'll "see the forestthru the tree's" and understand what I started to elude or hint at 'typical artisan qualities' each has... ...maybe not? I was only previously highlighting key principles, in what influences different skills or abilities, as they related to quality of artisan's! Now I'm finally ready to share to those who look hard enough, but also have an open mind! As an Elf I guess that's what keeps me hopeful, that perhaps others will unravel Mysticism of Artisans, like it seems this family of Elves has done... .
Realize I've been nothing but kind to you, even when you disagreed with me. I've tried to be very logical, methodical, and clear, perhaps I do meander a little, only because I was formulating it as I was posting. Though almost everything I re-reviewed, was mostly quite brief just long enough to answer questions other had. Though I think you were, getting hung up on the wrong thing, at the wrong times.
I even agreed with several, if not most of the things you, or your friends have made. When you or a friend said earlier any Artisans can have Proficiency &/Focus range of 330-400. I fully AGREE with that as well, and it still fits within this matrix! I agree Gold earnings needs to improve, and even Focus & Proficiency could be enhanced! I just don't think it's with Artisans but should be with Tools! All I've tried to do is EXPLAIN what 'typical' starting ranges meant, it was specific to help bring clarity to specific issues other noticed, like when @mushellka noticed artisans with +200% commission, yet saw his gold draining far faster. I also pointed out the higher P&F of both +395. Though I did elude to 'typical' artisan quality ratings for various things, at the time however I wasn't quite ready to reveal this:
---------------------- ARTISAN QUALITY MATRIX ----- NOTE: Each can (+/-) one ability or skill for another! Proficiency can be replaced at 1:1 for Focus; Commission can be increased/reduced 1:1 for the equal change of Speed; I've denoted about a (+/-) 25 Proficiency or Focus can result in a (+/-) of 15% change of ≈1.7:1 so -25 relationship to either Proficiency/Focus results in a ≈15% gain in Special Skills; Gold &/or Speed Modifier's to Proficiency &/or Focus an educated guess it's ≈5:1 so a (+/-) of 20 to Proficiency &/or Focus (only one) may see a reduction/increase of Commission by 100% or a (+/-) of 30 may see a reduction/increase of Commission by 150%. Realize this is a work in progress and the possibilities are too many to list... ...so this is generally best used as a rule of thumb (guide) to help everyone understand.
Perhaps we call it the Artisan Quality Matrix:
A Common Artisan will 'typical' start with values from experience of:
Starts with a Proficiency 'typical' of 370-380, it does not mean, all receive this, on their application!
Starts with a Focus of 340-350.
Starts with a Special Skill of 5-10% - Note those with 10% likely result in less Proficiency &/or Focus.
A Rare Artisan will 'typically' start with values perhaps:
Starts with a Proficiency 'typical' of 380-390, it does not mean, this is the end-state, only starting point!
Starts with a Focus of 350-360.
Starts with a Special Skill of 15-20%* [typo: said 10-15%]
A Epic Artisan will 'typically' start with values perhaps:
Starts with Proficiency 'typically' of 390-400.
Starts with a Focus of 360-370.
Starts with a Special Skill of 25%
STEPS: Then take a 'typical' artisan's based on their quality, take their starting ranges aligned to Quality, moving skills/modifiers as NOTE above to match your Artisan on PREVIEW! I'd certainly love anybody help, or friendly observations, that might help further improve it! This is just the first time I've had to fully post it, though it seemed I confused one or two, who perhaps misunderstood a few minor earlier statements, yet hopefully some clarity now frames what I was thinking up. I think I've accounted for most variances, and allows the model to align to most Artisans--there may be a few exceptions, this is only a first pass. Also feel free to edit, modify, or revise the Artisan Quality Matrix as you think it perhaps should be reflected!
Realize any starting skill/modifier can be used to update another! That's what makes all the Artisan's be a lot more diverse and each offer different pro's & con's just like people. Just hopefully most realize to focus on people's strengths for the given task at hand. But all ranges are still clearly possible, and Rare will overall overall will be better than Common, and Epic will be better overall than Rare. Yet all can still have a range that exists within:
Proficiency & Focus of 330-400 Range - NOTE: Some like to see perhaps 320-420 to apply!
Special Skill 5-25%
Commission -50% - +200%
Speed -50% to +200%
-----
So nothing I've said so far would dispute anything you, or your friends also made up to this point, some just discounted me before trying to understand what was said.
Cause surely everybody acknowledges a Rare, or Epic Artisan is going to have more to offer than a Common Artisan. They can all vary or adjust any combination of ability &/ skills, it's just higher quality artisan's have more room to play! Because how each of is influenced is by changing one (+/-) to adjust te skill in another way to make them more unique. I suspect this is very close to something like the matrix the Dev's have likely used. Regardless understanding it doesn't allow us to specific how are artisan's skills are distributed, that is something that they and they themselves withhold the right to do or when to introduce new ones.
It be NICE to see a DEV like @asterdahl provide something like I've tried to do above, that might show how a change in 5-35 to Proficiency &/or Focus might influence: (i) Special Skills (+/-5% to 20%), (ii) Commission (-50% to +200%), (iii) Speed (-50% to +200%) or vice/versa | maintaining their established guidelines for Quality for Common, Rare, or Epic bands. Or maybe the Art Department might work with DEVs to product a DEV BLOG, showing not only some Artisan's available at Launch, but also typical starting ranges each 'typical' artisan can start with, or how they may decide to change particular skills/modifiers within a Quality for new Artisans!
Or @onodrain are you of the opinion each value of Proficiency, Focus, Special Skill, Commission &/or Speed is pure RNG, and no logic or reasoning is used to justify what makes Quality - Quality - Quality : as DEVs just playing with Pencil Crayon's?
I haven't seen anybody even TRY to explain what differentiates Quality of Artisan's--I so boldly took on. Though perhaps now I regret doing so...
I will try to test my blue artisan with a 25% chance for a special "dab hand" skill. I will do 100 "Adamentine File". we will see how often we will get with the double number of items. we will also see how often the skill is activated. Blue artisan has a 25% chance of "dab hand" and only a small chance to make a high quality item. (4%)
The result I got surprised me. This is the first time that something in this game is consistent with the description for 100 attempts, the skill "dab hand" came in 27 times, of which 22 times it was managed to create ordinary items, and 5 times high quality items, one attempt was burned. As a curiosity, I note that "dab hand" seems to be drops in series. 3-4 times for a row, and then a break for 10-15 items.
Generally, I like this artisan, I hope that it will not be a nerf and that I will get it on the live server : )
Hehe... That will likely come in handy to have an artisan with that special skill, especially as you need to craft 1428-2200 Rare pieces of gear &/or Tools!
Most will be lucky and feel extremely gratified just finish Workshop 3!
And yes I am still seeing Gold Drain too, so hopefully in a PREVIEW soon, or not long after LIVE, they will increase the Gold, Silver, Copper offered for several crafted items. Right now you loose 2.19x more than your 0% Commission!
DEVs have said they will monitor it weeks out. Though don't know if they forget to compare the Commission Cost, verses resale Price of those same items as they have been so busy pushing all updates?
For an Adamantine Cuirass it only identifies value of 34 Silver, 18 Copper at a Market Vendor. But to create the 500 item level gear alone it cost me 75 Silver, 12 Copper and that's with Artisan of 0% Commission! Even if I added one at -50% I'd still be loosing Silver & Copper! If I slot an Artisan with +25% Commission this increases to 93 Silver, 90 Copper, if you go to an Artisan with +50% Commission it's 1 Gold, 12 Silver, 68 Copper!
I mean nobody should expect to make a profit with Artisan with +100% or +200% Commission as you'd be paying 2-4 Gold, & xx Silver to create each item. Yet at +50% Commission it should almost be a break even scenario even if you loose a little bit cause of overhead. But at -50%, +0%, +25% Commission you should also be able to make a fair amount of Silver maybe even a 1 Gold coin? No? I don't think that's unreasonable...
Gold, Silver, or Copper prices for crafted gear need to be revised: At least what Merchants will offer for several crafted gear.
If the required is 694, why does 694 not provide me with at least a 1% chance of success? We won't even mention the fact that 694/901 being 0% without looking at the tooltip is just so disconcerting. Proficiency appears to give a corresponding percentage for the numbers displayed, Focus should also.
Second a high-quality issue
As you can see I'm using 5 high-quality Wootz Steel Ore and yet the tooltip for the Craft button tells me I need 5 Wootz Steel Ore.
Side note: I thought maybe with the professions re-work you guys would have fixed this typo.
I think you require [694/901] to start the process, it seems the first 'tick' only starts the process, up from 0% rightly or wrongly. Cause it seems you need to exceed the base, to be given a chance at High-Quality or what is [700/901] to obtain 3% Focus Chance, if you wish to obtain a chance of High Quality Results.
So the TOOLTIP is slightly Cryptic.
Still hopefully they will be revise the TOOLTIP in the near future to correctly identify 700/901 is required to obtain the lowest quality upgrade chance.
Seems I also remember a DEV or someone commenting a week or two ago Mastercraft &/or Chultan Recipes don't currently accept High Quality Results at least not in the current build! So hopefully that will make the patch for the 19th, or 26th, as both I'm sure many want to test!
I'm also very curious to know what the Chultan League Gear will finally result in for Item Level. We've seen Rare Adamantine with 500 and that doesn't include Adamantine Gear +1 at 510. If Mastercraft II starts at 520, and Mastercraft III at 530, before Mastercraft V is 560. Will Chultan also be 520 just perhaps Rare quality?
Most will be lucky and feel extremely gratified just finish Workshop 3!
Just concerning this, any person a bit informed about preview can get prepared for the lvl 3 upgrade by buying 5k of mats. I don't really feel that WS R3 will be such a performance, as I'll personaly get it as the second the quest allows me to throw commission in. WS R4 howevern yeah that's another story.
Most will be lucky and feel extremely gratified just finish Workshop 3!
Just concerning this, any person a bit informed about preview can get prepared for the lvl 3 upgrade by buying 5k of mats. I don't really feel that WS R3 will be such a performance, as I'll personaly get it as the second the quest allows me to throw commission in. WS R4 howevern yeah that's another story.
Workshop level 3 and level 4 are not that difficult if you look at the requirements and select the correct profession. If you select the wrong profession, then it will take you forever to complete it.
I got to workshop level 4 within a few hours of logging into this update. If you select the proper profession, upgrading to level 4 is about 200 gold. If you select any other profession, it is considerably more. My analysis showed it costing over 5000 gold if I used jewelcrafting.
I do not know if the developers planned it to be this way, such that someone who looks at the list of items and thinks about the professions will be able to easily upgrade at a fraction of the cost and time. I like the system as it is on Test. Because it rewards clever people.
There is no reason, except impatience, to throw commission (AD) into the upgrade. You should save your AD, imho. But some people value time differently than others, so to each his own.
Currently on Test, the clear answer for upgrading your workshop is to use Alchemy. Even if you have never used Alchemy before, it is cheaper and faster to level your Alchemy profession and use it for Workshop upgrades. Total cost for upgrading if you use appropriate tools is less than 250 gold, if you already have Alchemy at max level. On Test server, you can replenish your morale and get the upgrades completed quickly with a short clickfest.
If the current system on Test goes Live, it will take you less than 2 weeks to complete the 150-160 artisan tasks required to meet the Exchange Requirements. Hardcore artisans will have a Forgehammer of Gond, which will make it easier. This time can be shortened by spending AD to add to the exchange or replenish your morale.
The developers have created an artisan system that rewards people who play smart. Casual players will likely get frustrated with it, because most people will not look at the details.
I just reviewed all the Developer comments on this thread, but did not read all the other comments, so mea culpa if this has been mentioned already.
Gold seems to be a big issue with the current crafting system on test. The developers put a gold bar that you can purchase, then sell on the AH. So people who need gold can buy these gold bars off the AH and sell them to vendors. Very convoluted way to do this. You have a transaction to purchase the gold bar. Another transaction to add the gold bar to the AH. You must keep track of the item on the AH. And another transaction when the item sells off the AH. Then another transaction to sell the bar to a vendor. So 4 transactions plus keeping track of the AH listing.
Here is a simpler approach that takes more AD out of the economy with one simple transaction, so it takes much less system resources.
Sell gold on the Wondrous Bazaar for 150 AD per gold. This will make it 112.5 AD per gold with people who have VIP 12. And when Wondrous Bazaar sales occur, VIP 12 users will get it for 90 AD per gold.
Currently on test, the implicit exchange rate is 1 AD = 1 Silver, which equates to 100 AD per Gold.
> @onodrain said: > I just reviewed all the Developer comments on this thread, but did not read all the other comments, so mea culpa if this has been mentioned already. > > Gold seems to be a big issue with the current crafting system on test. The developers put a gold bar that you can purchase, then sell on the AH. So people who need gold can buy these gold bars off the AH and sell them to vendors. Very convoluted way to do this. You have a transaction to purchase the gold bar. Another transaction to add the gold bar to the AH. You must keep track of the item on the AH. And another transaction when the item sells off the AH. So 3 transactions plus keeping track of the AH listing. > > Here is a simpler approach that takes more AD out of the economy with one simple transaction, so it takes much less system resources. > > Sell gold on the Wondrous Bazaar for 150 AD per gold. This will make it 112.5 AD per gold with people who have VIP 12. And when Wondrous Bazaar sales occur, VIP 12 users will get it for 90 AD per gold. > > Currently on test, the implicit exchange rate is 1 AD = 1 Silver, which equates to 100 AD per Gold.
Having it sell on the AH only has the potential for it to go much higher thus draining more AD.
Most will be lucky and feel extremely gratified just finish Workshop 3!
Just concerning this, any person a bit informed about preview can get prepared for the lvl 3 upgrade by buying 5k of mats. I don't really feel that WS R3 will be such a performance, as I'll personaly get it as the second the quest allows me to throw commission in. WS R4 howevern yeah that's another story.
If you talking PREVIEW the rules will likely see a few stark changes before it GO LIVE.
First I should probably add, the reason for the statement I was quoted above, needs to be taken in the context of another player, who was testing making Adamantine Tools and how often Dab Hand 25% PROC'd. Then because he was somewhat finding some interesting result with DAB Hand, yet still concerned about his gold draining so quickly, as many people share this concern! I added the Hehe... cause I didn't know if he had Alchemy Levelled, and if he didn't I just pointed out:
----- "Hehe... That will likely come in handy to have an artisan with that special skill, especially as you need to craft 1428-2200 Rare pieces of gear &/or Tools!
Most will be lucky and feel extremely gratified just finish Workshop 3!
And yes I am still seeing Gold Drain too, so hopefully in a PREVIEW soon, or not long after LIVE, they will increase the Gold, Silver, Copper offered for several crafted items. Right now you loose 2.19x more than your 0% Commission!" -----
So most of this was in the context of speaking of Gold drain not the Workshop 3 &/or 4. I mean it costs you 71 Silver at 0% Commission to produce a single Adamantine 500 gear Armor, But that's the standard cost for any 70 level item at 0% Commission but given all only offer 34 Silver 80 Copper to sell it to a merchant? What if you have +25 to +200% Commission - surely people wont' expect to make a profit in gold at 50-200%, you'd be lucky to mostly break even at +50%. But at 0% your loosing by a factor of 2.19x 71... Silver to 34?.?.? - Gear should offer for Crafted Adamantine in the range of 70-99 Silver depending on type of Gear. Similar contrast likely should be made for Mithral, Steel, etc... as well.
So it wasn't even any direct reference to Workshop 3 or 4, thought I've done both on preview several times. The workshop will take the time the workshop will take, based on what rules & procedures, as they are set at the time of launch. What's current today may change this Friday, next Friday, or one more time by launch.
When I said to him "Most will be lucky and feel extremely gratified just to finish Workshop 3!" is almost the exact same thing as your statement "WS R4 'howevern' yeah that's another story" meaning to imply cause now the effort has only begun!
Still with each subsequent build we're seeing, allowable items for WS4 Credit reduced, revised, &/or changed.
Alchemy is the only PROF that currently allows an item that is stackable at 12x in the Delivery Box item usable for credit at Workshop 4. As it still accepts Enhanced Superior Potions of Power, that arrives in stacks of x12, for all 18 slots, each potion awarding 3000-3500 at 1/12th the gold cost verses a Single Adamantine Gear/Tool. Realize these comparison's all use the same 0% Commission & 0% Speed Modifiers as base evaluators to keep it balanced.
No other profession even has a single item that can stack that high, let alone can be produce so quickly, and for so little gold cost.
DEVs aware of need to balance Alchemy with other Professions!
Currently you can earn Workshop 4 in 13.89 days [Alchemy] with MORAL spending in 1-2 minutes! If you crafted 12x18 extra potions stacks you could easily be done with Alchemy in 3, or 4 days; simply by emptying your delivery box 1-3 times daily, with a little MORAL thrown on for giggles. Every other PROF it will take over 10-15x longer, cost 12x more in gold, so why is balance important?
Cause the difference between Alchemy fully levelled, and virtually every other PROF, is too stark a contrast in extreme's. One is done in perhaps less than 5 days doing just MORAL & emptying Delivery BOX 1-3 times a day? While every other takes possibly 59-79 days and costs 12x more Gold!
PS: Did I say Alchemy can be done in 2-3 days, no tricks just plain, simple, follow every guideline for maximizing the best currency Potion at level 70, and then just emptying delivery box 4-5x each day, once every 3 hours or so? Now I'm certainly NOT going to be one who does it that often, maybe once a day, perhaps two at best but you get the point! At the start of the day immediately produce 120 Enhanced Superior Potions of Power using just MORAL, then craft 12x18 potions and wait for 3 hours before you empty and kick off the next day's task to be waiting for you and a few days later you done.
Gathering profession results also come in stacks of 12.
Everyone has access to Alchemy. There is no balance issue there. Cause anyone can do it. If someone uses another profession and wastes the gold and time, that is their choice.
It may be intended by the developers to have Alchemy be used for Workshop Upgrades. Or they may intend to change it. We don't know unless a Developer tells us their intent. The gold cost and time investment with Alchemy to upgrade the workshop seems about right to me.
Well isn't that STRANGE! I always saw x11 for gathering task.
I admit I did some testing on the weekend, but I never noticed it change to x12 until today. I know what I saw as well. Perhaps it changed in 1008.a2, but for sure in 0924.a1 and 0924.a2 or earlier it always was x11. I remember seeing x11 many, many times... ...especially with 1-2 issues and the delivery box.
As for your comment "there is no balance issue" I can somewhat agree or understand where your coming from. I mean currently alchemy can level a lot faster to Level 10-12. Especially if you rush experiments, simply cause they want to allow players to create potions as they level. I'd also certainly agree everybody should be considering to level alchemy on at least a few toons / characters, simply for the reason potions won't drop from NPCs anymore. So aside from getting a few lucky ones in Skill Nodes &/or Dungeons Chests you'll either need to create them or buy them. So unless you are someone who doesn't mind paying gold for far more potions, then the only question remains, does it cost more to make, or just to buy them? Guess it depends on your Commission multiplier, and getting at least a few Artisan's with -50% or even -25% Commission, to keep your costs down a bit and help out new players.
Regardless I'm sure we'll have a new PATCH tomorrow, to review and see what changes/revisions they've made. Realize often (not always) many of the builds we see, were mostly finished 2-3 months earlier. So some feedback we provided over the last 3-4 weeks is likely only going to be incorporated into builds that first week. Though I'm sure a few more critical ones sometimes are corrected a little faster depending on the priority it's given.
Back to Valandra and the Chaos she's weaving with the x11 verses x12 debate.
Allow the sale of any item from the Lady Begum list, regardless of the day. Such artificial silly impediment, not going to get you a lot of sympathy from a players.
When selecting a position from the dispatch board, a double click is unnecessary. Change it, because it often causes mistakes in the selection.
Add a search for the item "Buy new materials". I do not know by what key the items are placed there, but can go crazy looking for several at once. This is especially important for non-English people.
The option to reset the "morale" would be placed, for example, in the "favorites" tab. Someone who has to run all over the workshop to reset the "morale" for heavy cash, can quit it halfway.
Let our char sit on chairs, just like in Stronghold
Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
I'm doing another push on advancing Masterwork skills on my main. Here are some thoughts I have:
The reliance on pure RNG is really oppressive. For instance, just now I tried making Vermilion Fabric Dye. I have a 75% success chance (yes, I have a mythic Forgehammer) and failed four times in a row. I get that it's a function of the random number generator; you're feeding it (most likely) a 32-bit seed value based on some criteria (time/character position/mouse position/previous result) or some combination of criteria. I hope it gets re-seeded after each and every attempt. At any rate, the tyranny of the random number generator is not only oppressive and demoralizing, it also doesn't reflect real life.
I'm an engineer. When we make something in real life, what do we do? If we're responsible (as any masterwork-level artisan would be), we do our due diligence: we research the potential techniques used to not only create what we seek but also techniques to minimize risk. Often, if possible, we practice first. We might prototype a solution using fewer resources to validate the design. We might also practice iteratively for the express purpose of seeking out any gotchas. And, of course, we attempt to collaborate with -- or at the very least, learn from -- those who have done similar work before. There is, of course the famous quote:
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants" -- Isaac Newton, 1675
When we attempt something and experience a failure, we don't simply roll the dice and try again. No responsible person does that -- we might perform a root cause analysis. We might perform careful tests on each intermediate step, measuring the results and comparing against what we might expect. We would employ the Scientific Method, formulating hypotheses on what could have caused the failure and devising tests specifically to test them. We might seek information from anyone who has performed similar steps before with similar materials. In short, we would consult the existing body of knowledge and attempt to formulate some sort of empirical test so we can learn why we experienced a failure. One thing we, as professionals, would most assuredly not do is simply "roll the dice" on an identical attempt.
How do you simplify and simulate this sort of thought process in a game? The success chance should slowly improve with each attempt. Further, you should be able to improve the rate at which it improves by doing some sort of research task. Maybe you go talk to sages (like Sage Bradda), spend time searching texts, talking to other artificers around the region, etc. Further, once you do start achieving success with something, the success chance should increase the more you do it: in life, the learning process doesn't end; as we become more familiar with the task, we learn or devise techniques that are (1) more reliable, (2) less time-consuming, (3) less costly, or some combination of them. An interesting dynamic could be a way to let you invest effort specifically toward improving one or more of those qualities. That is what we do in real life. The old saw is "fast, cheap, good -- pick two". Can you improve all three? Of course, just not at the same time. Generally we improve one quality, then carefully analyze it until we feel the dynamic is well-understood, then improve another quality.
When you stop performing a particular Masterwork task for an extended period of time, you should become "rusty", reflected in a slight worsening of the success chance. It should not revert back to the base chance, since any professional -- especially a master -- would be expected to take detailed notes on techniques and everything learned as those techniques were learned and modified. By the same token, the more often you perform a task in a given period of time, it should become "old-hat"/"mental muscle-memory" such that it becomes second-nature. This should improve your success chances as long as you don't let it atrophy such that you become "rusty".
[Removed my extra rant on the RNG as it's not covering any new ground. Besides, I'm fighting a cold and I'm decidedly grumpy. I don't want the main thrust of the post to get sidetracked.]
Post edited by hustin1 on
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My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
A little more clarification regarding selling gold for AD on the Wondrous Bazaar.
I realize that you had intended to take gold out of the economy with these changes. And so on the surface, adding a way to purchase gold with AD would potentially add it back in.
However, you can balance Profession costs to take gold out of the economy AND take AD out of the economy as well. Correcting two issues. By setting the Gold to AD ratio, you would be creating a balancing tool for the economy.
You could still maintain your current gold sinks, as well.
A little more clarification regarding selling gold for AD on the Wondrous Bazaar.
I realize that you had intended to take gold out of the economy with these changes. And so on the surface, adding a way to purchase gold with AD would potentially add it back in.
However, you can balance Profession costs to take gold out of the economy AND take AD out of the economy as well. Correcting two issues. By setting the Gold to AD ratio, you would be creating a balancing tool for the economy.
You could still maintain your current gold sinks, as well.
I don't know who really will use the wondrous bazaar to buy gold if the AH has a better return which it probably will.
I'm doing another push on advancing Masterwork skills on my main. Here are some thoughts I have:
The reliance on pure RNG is really oppressive. For instance, just now I tried making Vermilion Fabric Dye. I have a 75% success chance (yes, I have a mythic Forgehammer) and failed four times in a row. I get that it's a function of the random number generator; you're feeding it (most likely) a 32-bit seed value based on some criteria (time/character position/mouse position/previous result) or some combination of criteria. I hope it gets re-seeded after each and every attempt. At any rate, the tyranny of the random number generator is not only oppressive and demoralizing, it also doesn't reflect real life.
I'm an engineer. When we make something in real life, what do we do? If we're responsible (as any masterwork-level artisan would be), we do our due diligence: we research the potential techniques used to not only create what we seek but also techniques to minimize risk. Often, if possible, we practice first. We might prototype a solution using fewer resources to validate the design. We might also practice iteratively for the express purpose of seeking out any gotchas. And, of course, we attempt to collaborate with -- or at the very least, learn from -- those who have done similar work before. There is, of course the famous quote:
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants" -- Isaac Newton, 1675
When we attempt something and experience a failure, we don't simply roll the dice and try again. No responsible person does that -- we might perform a root cause analysis. We might perform careful tests on each intermediate step, measuring the results and comparing against what we might expect. We would employ the Scientific Method, formulating hypotheses on what could have caused the failure and devising tests specifically to test them. We might seek information from anyone who has performed similar steps before with similar materials. In short, we would consult the existing body of knowledge and attempt to formulate some sort of empirical test so we can learn why we experienced a failure. One thing we, as professionals, would most assuredly not do is simply "roll the dice" on an identical attempt.
How do you simplify and simulate this sort of thought process in a game? The success chance should slowly improve with each attempt. Further, you should be able to improve the rate at which it improves by doing some sort of research task. Maybe you go talk to sages (like Sage Bradda), spend time searching texts, talking to other artificers around the region, etc. Further, once you do start achieving success with something, the success chance should increase the more you do it: in life, the learning process doesn't end; as we become more familiar with the task, we learn or devise techniques that are (1) more reliable, (2) less time-consuming, (3) less costly, or some combination of them. An interesting dynamic could be a way to let you invest effort specifically toward improving one or more of those qualities. That is what we do in real life. The old saw is "fast, cheap, good -- pick two". Can you improve all three? Of course, just not at the same time. Generally we improve one quality, then carefully analyze it until we feel the dynamic is well-understood, then improve another quality.
When you stop performing a particular Masterwork task for an extended period of time, you should become "rusty", reflected in a slight worsening of the success chance. It should not revert back to the base chance, since any professional -- especially a master -- would be expected to take detailed notes on techniques and everything learned as those techniques were learned and modified. By the same token, the more often you perform a task in a given period of time, it should become "old-hat"/"mental muscle-memory" such that it becomes second-nature. This should improve your success chances as long as you don't let it atrophy such that you become "rusty".
[Removed my extra rant on the RNG as it's not covering any new ground. Besides, I'm fighting a cold and I'm decidedly grumpy. I don't want the main thrust of the post to get sidetracked.]
That is a pretty interesting analysis; a really easy way to modify the RNG chance based on your suggestion would be to factor in a player's Lore Points/Achievements. It rewards players for actually playing the game and exploring the environment rather than skipping over content. If you've gathered all the "Lore" in Neverwinter, you should have as close to 100% chance of success as possible because you literally know more "stuff" than anyone else.....
> @empalas said: > I don't know who really will use the wondrous bazaar to buy gold if the AH has a better return which it probably will.
If they sell it in the WB, it will cap the AD sink from the AH and the only time it will be purchased from the WB will be during the sale by those with VIP. By leaving it AH only there is the potential of a greater AD sink.
Comments
I realize that my tests may seem naive
But ... For two days, I spent 2/3 of my gold and most of AD. On the preview server, I can afford it, however, when mod 15 drop to live... ughh ...
I need to know what to strive for, how to dispose of what I have.
I have a limited amount of gold, I need to find a way that I will be able to enjoy the new workshop. RNG did not allow me to get Gond, so I have to rely on what I will receive after exchanging my assets.
If my thoughts also help someone else, I will only be happy.
For now, the idea is to complete artisans according to the following formula:
for gathering - needs those who will have low commissions and high speed, at the expense of their special skills. The remaining stats should be balanced, with emphasis on focus.
For alchemy, jewelcrafting and blacksmithing, I need high quality epic artisans. With a maximum high focus.
I would like to see all available artisans in order to be able to test different dependencies, but I am afraid that the devs have specifically "spoiled" us this possibility. To keep us in suspense. Exactly the same as for other items, which "are but they do not exist".
One thing I wonder about is this: Is Dab Hand as a special skill possible on artisans for other professions? The reason I ask is because it does not have any effect when creating an actual product, like boots, belts, armor, rings, necklaces, weapons, etc. It's only useful in Gathering and Jewelcrafting, and it's only useful in Jewelcrafting when turning raw gems (raw peridot, raw sapphire, raw black opal, etc) into polished gems (peridot, sapphire, black opal, etc). So for JC I could see having an artisan with Dab Hand for turning out the gems, and then having an artisan with a different special skill for whatever else you're planning to do - possibly having several different artisans with different special skills depending on what you're making.
This new profession system wont be perfect and there will need to be adjustments going into the future, but it's infinitely better imo than what was there before and completely opens up the game and gives us more to do. More story lines/rewards can now be added to the South Seas Trading Company via trade with the game.
Combined with the new dungeon system and return of the old dungeons(not in preview yet), also the fact that we aren't getting a grindy campaign zone, this mod represents a major turning point in the game.
I for one am very happy about it!
Blue artisan has a 25% chance of "dab hand" and only a small chance to make a high quality item. (4%)
The result I got surprised me. This is the first time that something in this game is consistent with the description
for 100 attempts, the skill "dab hand" came in 27 times, of which 22 times it was managed to create ordinary items, and 5 times high quality items, one attempt was burned.
As a curiosity, I note that "dab hand" seems to be drops in series. 3-4 times for a row, and then a break for 10-15 items.
Generally, I like this artisan, I hope that it will not be a nerf and that I will get it on the live server : )
There are no recipes that use Bag of Crystals, Bag of Gems or Bag of Jewels (that I can find), what use will they have? Same goes for Wand of Detect Aberrant and Wand of Detect Demons. They currently are sitting in the supplies bag for Professions.
IMO they should be translated into tickets for the new supplies. I would guess 100-120 tickets would be the proper exchange rate for the Bag of Jewels, 50-60 for Bag of Gems and 10-15 for the Bag of Crystals.
Let's forget for a while about the arbitrary complexity, randomness, and artificial scarcity that Cryptic is introducing in the new system as smoke and mirrors, so they can in fact take away everything you have spent on professions to date and replace it with all new things you can spend Zen on. Let's just look at pure functionality of the products that Cryptic already sold to us.
Currently, if I have 4 Epic Craftsman, I can do 4 high-level tasks, or I can use those craftsmen to speed up 1-3 tasks. They will execute these tasks efficiently and cost effectively, simultaneously. I can easily schedule the time my tasks take against my own schedule, and decide when to log back on and restart them. I can also send those craftsmen around to various other characters if they are needed to complete a task, or, if I no longer desire that profession, I can sell them back to the market.
Currently, if I have 4 Epic tools, I can use them to enhance 4 tasks, or provide even higher crit and benefits, up to something like 60-80% crit chance, on a single task. Or lesser chances on 2-3 tasks. Again, if needed, I can ship them over to other characters, and if I stop using them, I can sell them on the market.
The current system appears that I will need to trade in 10 Epic craftsman for a voucher to get a (random?) craftsman in return. Or I can trade in 20-40 Epic tools for another voucher to get a (random?) tool in return. (I haven't space for installing Preview atm so please correct me if these are wrong)
Even if I do cash them all in and get lucky and get a great artisan I really like... he is still only 1 artisan, capable of doing only 1 task at a time (even if I can set him up to produce indefinitely, he is only doing 1 task at a time). Again, same for tools.
I'm having some difficulty in understanding how Cryptic can justify taking away literally dozens of items that I have already paid for, and replacing them with a voucher to maybe receive one single decent item in return?
If a voucher costs 200,000, and I cash in all my guys and find I have only 140,000 points... what do I do then? I'd also like to ask if these new artisans are tradeable, transferable, account bound, or char bound? Same for tools.
As it is currently on preview, the vouchers from tools and artisans can be exchanged for tools or worker recruitment. There is no random, you buy the tool you want. The vouchers are exchangeable between your characters, the tools are not. The current rate on preview will allow the exchange of the epic tools for 5000 voucher points for the highest level new tool is also 5000 voucher points. The lower level tools redeem and cost less.
Any workers you acquire are bound, they will be no trading/selling of workers themselves. You will get 4 common workers to start, 2 gatherers and 2 in profession of your choice. You will also get more workers for free based on the number of slots you have open, 8 max. 2 low tier, 3 medium tier and 3 epic. If you do not have 9 slots unlocked, you will lose the option to get the highest workers, based on the number of slots you did unlock. For the workers obtained through this, you select the profession. More will workers will be acquired for free as the apply to work for you. As you increase the level of your workshop, higher quality workers will apply. At rank 4, it will be possible to get epics. Chance of this is unknown.
The 200,000 worker voucher will allow you select the skill, but will be rng on quality. The Zen store workers will also be RNG on the quality, but you never "need" to buy any workers. They will keep applying to your workshop as you staff it. Dismiss workers when you get a better one. Currently, for certain uses the common workers can be more cost-effective than the Epic. The higher level workers tend to have higher commissions and and cost more to use. The trade-in value of workers is higher than for tools. I don't have the figures on hand. I wouldn't get too hung up on the cost of the worker voucher, yet. I believe the exchange rate is still being considered based on feedback. But, it may not change.
The current worker Max is 32, but may be raised based on a comment in this thread. 31 is the max you could possibly need, so one slot extra. The 31 figure I use is to allow 4 workers in each crafting profession to be able to run 3 orders and rush with the 4th in each profession. In gathering you cannot rush, so 3 workers is good. That would be 28 crafters and 3 gatherers if you run all skills.
The number of tools needed however is quite a bit higher. Even though it is 1 worker, 1 tools per task, gathering uses several different tools and you would need 3 of each if you want to craft all the skill lines.
Speed and quality are still factors in crafting, but are based on the stats of your artisans and tools rather than an using increased number of them as in the current system.
PS: This Elf has a business degree, and understand statistical analysis, though I admit this is by no means that, just a series of well made observations.
Perhaps after you're read this as presented, you'll "see the forest thru the tree's" and understand what I started to elude or hint at 'typical artisan qualities' each has... ...maybe not? I was only previously highlighting key principles, in what influences different skills or abilities, as they related to quality of artisan's! Now I'm finally ready to share to those who look hard enough, but also have an open mind! As an Elf I guess that's what keeps me hopeful, that perhaps others will unravel Mysticism of Artisans, like it seems this family of Elves has done... .
Realize I've been nothing but kind to you, even when you disagreed with me. I've tried to be very logical, methodical, and clear, perhaps I do meander a little, only because I was formulating it as I was posting. Though almost everything I re-reviewed, was mostly quite brief just long enough to answer questions other had. Though I think you were, getting hung up on the wrong thing, at the wrong times.
I even agreed with several, if not most of the things you, or your friends have made. When you or a friend said earlier any Artisans can have Proficiency &/Focus range of 330-400. I fully AGREE with that as well, and it still fits within this matrix! I agree Gold earnings needs to improve, and even Focus & Proficiency could be enhanced! I just don't think it's with Artisans but should be with Tools! All I've tried to do is EXPLAIN what 'typical' starting ranges meant, it was specific to help bring clarity to specific issues other noticed, like when @mushellka noticed artisans with +200% commission, yet saw his gold draining far faster. I also pointed out the higher P&F of both +395. Though I did elude to 'typical' artisan quality ratings for various things, at the time however I wasn't quite ready to reveal this:
----------------------
ARTISAN QUALITY MATRIX
-----
NOTE: Each can (+/-) one ability or skill for another! Proficiency can be replaced at 1:1 for Focus; Commission can be increased/reduced 1:1 for the equal change of Speed; I've denoted about a (+/-) 25 Proficiency or Focus can result in a (+/-) of 15% change of ≈1.7:1 so -25 relationship to either Proficiency/Focus results in a ≈15% gain in Special Skills; Gold &/or Speed Modifier's to Proficiency &/or Focus an educated guess it's ≈5:1 so a (+/-) of 20 to Proficiency &/or Focus (only one) may see a reduction/increase of Commission by 100% or a (+/-) of 30 may see a reduction/increase of Commission by 150%. Realize this is a work in progress and the possibilities are too many to list... ...so this is generally best used as a rule of thumb (guide) to help everyone understand.
Perhaps we call it the Artisan Quality Matrix:
A Common Artisan will 'typical' start with values from experience of:
- Starts with a Proficiency 'typical' of 370-380, it does not mean, all receive this, on their application!
- Starts with a Focus of 340-350.
- Starts with a Special Skill of 5-10% - Note those with 10% likely result in less Proficiency &/or Focus.
A Rare Artisan will 'typically' start with values perhaps:- Starts with a Proficiency 'typical' of 380-390, it does not mean, this is the end-state, only starting point!
- Starts with a Focus of 350-360.
- Starts with a Special Skill of 15-20%* [typo: said 10-15%]
A Epic Artisan will 'typically' start with values perhaps:- Starts with Proficiency 'typically' of 390-400.
- Starts with a Focus of 360-370.
- Starts with a Special Skill of 25%
STEPS: Then take a 'typical' artisan's based on their quality, take their starting ranges aligned to Quality, moving skills/modifiers as NOTE above to match your Artisan on PREVIEW! I'd certainly love anybody help, or friendly observations, that might help further improve it! This is just the first time I've had to fully post it, though it seemed I confused one or two, who perhaps misunderstood a few minor earlier statements, yet hopefully some clarity now frames what I was thinking up. I think I've accounted for most variances, and allows the model to align to most Artisans--there may be a few exceptions, this is only a first pass. Also feel free to edit, modify, or revise the Artisan Quality Matrix as you think it perhaps should be reflected!Realize any starting skill/modifier can be used to update another! That's what makes all the Artisan's be a lot more diverse and each offer different pro's & con's just like people. Just hopefully most realize to focus on people's strengths for the given task at hand. But all ranges are still clearly possible, and Rare will overall overall will be better than Common, and Epic will be better overall than Rare. Yet all can still have a range that exists within:
- Proficiency & Focus of 330-400 Range - NOTE: Some like to see perhaps 320-420 to apply!
- Special Skill 5-25%
- Commission -50% - +200%
- Speed -50% to +200%
-----So nothing I've said so far would dispute anything you, or your friends also made up to this point, some just discounted me before trying to understand what was said.
Cause surely everybody acknowledges a Rare, or Epic Artisan is going to have more to offer than a Common Artisan. They can all vary or adjust any combination of ability &/ skills, it's just higher quality artisan's have more room to play! Because how each of is influenced is by changing one (+/-) to adjust te skill in another way to make them more unique. I suspect this is very close to something like the matrix the Dev's have likely used. Regardless understanding it doesn't allow us to specific how are artisan's skills are distributed, that is something that they and they themselves withhold the right to do or when to introduce new ones.
It be NICE to see a DEV like @asterdahl provide something like I've tried to do above, that might show how a change in 5-35 to Proficiency &/or Focus might influence: (i) Special Skills (+/-5% to 20%), (ii) Commission (-50% to +200%), (iii) Speed (-50% to +200%) or vice/versa | maintaining their established guidelines for Quality for Common, Rare, or Epic bands. Or maybe the Art Department might work with DEVs to product a DEV BLOG, showing not only some Artisan's available at Launch, but also typical starting ranges each 'typical' artisan can start with, or how they may decide to change particular skills/modifiers within a Quality for new Artisans!
Or @onodrain are you of the opinion each value of Proficiency, Focus, Special Skill, Commission &/or Speed is pure RNG, and no logic or reasoning is used to justify what makes Quality - Quality - Quality : as DEVs just playing with Pencil Crayon's?
I haven't seen anybody even TRY to explain what differentiates Quality of Artisan's--I so boldly took on. Though perhaps now I regret doing so...
Most will be lucky and feel extremely gratified just finish Workshop 3!
And yes I am still seeing Gold Drain too, so hopefully in a PREVIEW soon, or not long after LIVE, they will increase the Gold, Silver, Copper offered for several crafted items. Right now you loose 2.19x more than your 0% Commission!
DEVs have said they will monitor it weeks out. Though don't know if they forget to compare the Commission Cost, verses resale Price of those same items as they have been so busy pushing all updates?
For an Adamantine Cuirass it only identifies value of 34 Silver, 18 Copper at a Market Vendor. But to create the 500 item level gear alone it cost me 75 Silver, 12 Copper and that's with Artisan of 0% Commission! Even if I added one at -50% I'd still be loosing Silver & Copper! If I slot an Artisan with +25% Commission this increases to 93 Silver, 90 Copper, if you go to an Artisan with +50% Commission it's 1 Gold, 12 Silver, 68 Copper!
I mean nobody should expect to make a profit with Artisan with +100% or +200% Commission as you'd be paying 2-4 Gold, & xx Silver to create each item. Yet at +50% Commission it should almost be a break even scenario even if you loose a little bit cause of overhead. But at -50%, +0%, +25% Commission you should also be able to make a fair amount of Silver maybe even a 1 Gold coin? No? I don't think that's unreasonable...
Gold, Silver, or Copper prices for crafted gear need to be revised: At least what Merchants will offer for several crafted gear.
First a focus issue
If the required is 694, why does 694 not provide me with at least a 1% chance of success? We won't even mention the fact that 694/901 being 0% without looking at the tooltip is just so disconcerting. Proficiency appears to give a corresponding percentage for the numbers displayed, Focus should also.
Second a high-quality issue
As you can see I'm using 5 high-quality Wootz Steel Ore and yet the tooltip for the Craft button tells me I need 5 Wootz Steel Ore.
Side note: I thought maybe with the professions re-work you guys would have fixed this typo.
I think you require [694/901] to start the process, it seems the first 'tick' only starts the process, up from 0% rightly or wrongly. Cause it seems you need to exceed the base, to be given a chance at High-Quality or what is [700/901] to obtain 3% Focus Chance, if you wish to obtain a chance of High Quality Results.
So the TOOLTIP is slightly Cryptic.
Still hopefully they will be revise the TOOLTIP in the near future to correctly identify 700/901 is required to obtain the lowest quality upgrade chance.
Seems I also remember a DEV or someone commenting a week or two ago Mastercraft &/or Chultan Recipes don't currently accept High Quality Results at least not in the current build! So hopefully that will make the patch for the 19th, or 26th, as both I'm sure many want to test!
I'm also very curious to know what the Chultan League Gear will finally result in for Item Level. We've seen Rare Adamantine with 500 and that doesn't include Adamantine Gear +1 at 510. If Mastercraft II starts at 520, and Mastercraft III at 530, before Mastercraft V is 560. Will Chultan also be 520 just perhaps Rare quality?
WS R4 howevern yeah that's another story.
I got to workshop level 4 within a few hours of logging into this update. If you select the proper profession, upgrading to level 4 is about 200 gold. If you select any other profession, it is considerably more. My analysis showed it costing over 5000 gold if I used jewelcrafting.
I do not know if the developers planned it to be this way, such that someone who looks at the list of items and thinks about the professions will be able to easily upgrade at a fraction of the cost and time. I like the system as it is on Test. Because it rewards clever people.
There is no reason, except impatience, to throw commission (AD) into the upgrade. You should save your AD, imho. But some people value time differently than others, so to each his own.
Currently on Test, the clear answer for upgrading your workshop is to use Alchemy. Even if you have never used Alchemy before, it is cheaper and faster to level your Alchemy profession and use it for Workshop upgrades. Total cost for upgrading if you use appropriate tools is less than 250 gold, if you already have Alchemy at max level. On Test server, you can replenish your morale and get the upgrades completed quickly with a short clickfest.
If the current system on Test goes Live, it will take you less than 2 weeks to complete the 150-160 artisan tasks required to meet the Exchange Requirements. Hardcore artisans will have a Forgehammer of Gond, which will make it easier. This time can be shortened by spending AD to add to the exchange or replenish your morale.
The developers have created an artisan system that rewards people who play smart. Casual players will likely get frustrated with it, because most people will not look at the details.
I just reviewed all the Developer comments on this thread, but did not read all the other comments, so mea culpa if this has been mentioned already.
Gold seems to be a big issue with the current crafting system on test. The developers put a gold bar that you can purchase, then sell on the AH. So people who need gold can buy these gold bars off the AH and sell them to vendors. Very convoluted way to do this. You have a transaction to purchase the gold bar. Another transaction to add the gold bar to the AH. You must keep track of the item on the AH. And another transaction when the item sells off the AH. Then another transaction to sell the bar to a vendor. So 4 transactions plus keeping track of the AH listing.
Here is a simpler approach that takes more AD out of the economy with one simple transaction, so it takes much less system resources.
Sell gold on the Wondrous Bazaar for 150 AD per gold. This will make it 112.5 AD per gold with people who have VIP 12. And when Wondrous Bazaar sales occur, VIP 12 users will get it for 90 AD per gold.
Currently on test, the implicit exchange rate is 1 AD = 1 Silver, which equates to 100 AD per Gold.
> I just reviewed all the Developer comments on this thread, but did not read all the other comments, so mea culpa if this has been mentioned already.
>
> Gold seems to be a big issue with the current crafting system on test. The developers put a gold bar that you can purchase, then sell on the AH. So people who need gold can buy these gold bars off the AH and sell them to vendors. Very convoluted way to do this. You have a transaction to purchase the gold bar. Another transaction to add the gold bar to the AH. You must keep track of the item on the AH. And another transaction when the item sells off the AH. So 3 transactions plus keeping track of the AH listing.
>
> Here is a simpler approach that takes more AD out of the economy with one simple transaction, so it takes much less system resources.
>
> Sell gold on the Wondrous Bazaar for 150 AD per gold. This will make it 112.5 AD per gold with people who have VIP 12. And when Wondrous Bazaar sales occur, VIP 12 users will get it for 90 AD per gold.
>
> Currently on test, the implicit exchange rate is 1 AD = 1 Silver, which equates to 100 AD per Gold.
Having it sell on the AH only has the potential for it to go much higher thus draining more AD.
First I should probably add, the reason for the statement I was quoted above, needs to be taken in the context of another player, who was testing making Adamantine Tools and how often Dab Hand 25% PROC'd. Then because he was somewhat finding some interesting result with DAB Hand, yet still concerned about his gold draining so quickly, as many people share this concern! I added the Hehe... cause I didn't know if he had Alchemy Levelled, and if he didn't I just pointed out:
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"Hehe... That will likely come in handy to have an artisan with that special skill, especially as you need to craft 1428-2200 Rare pieces of gear &/or Tools!
Most will be lucky and feel extremely gratified just finish Workshop 3!
And yes I am still seeing Gold Drain too, so hopefully in a PREVIEW soon, or not long after LIVE, they will increase the Gold, Silver, Copper offered for several crafted items. Right now you loose 2.19x more than your 0% Commission!"
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So most of this was in the context of speaking of Gold drain not the Workshop 3 &/or 4. I mean it costs you 71 Silver at 0% Commission to produce a single Adamantine 500 gear Armor, But that's the standard cost for any 70 level item at 0% Commission but given all only offer 34 Silver 80 Copper to sell it to a merchant? What if you have +25 to +200% Commission - surely people wont' expect to make a profit in gold at 50-200%, you'd be lucky to mostly break even at +50%. But at 0% your loosing by a factor of 2.19x 71... Silver to 34?.?.? - Gear should offer for Crafted Adamantine in the range of 70-99 Silver depending on type of Gear. Similar contrast likely should be made for Mithral, Steel, etc... as well.
So it wasn't even any direct reference to Workshop 3 or 4, thought I've done both on preview several times. The workshop will take the time the workshop will take, based on what rules & procedures, as they are set at the time of launch. What's current today may change this Friday, next Friday, or one more time by launch.
When I said to him "Most will be lucky and feel extremely gratified just to finish Workshop 3!" is almost the exact same thing as your statement "WS R4 'howevern' yeah that's another story" meaning to imply cause now the effort has only begun!
Still with each subsequent build we're seeing, allowable items for WS4 Credit reduced, revised, &/or changed.
Alchemy is the only PROF that currently allows an item that is stackable at 12x in the Delivery Box item usable for credit at Workshop 4. As it still accepts Enhanced Superior Potions of Power, that arrives in stacks of x12, for all 18 slots, each potion awarding 3000-3500 at 1/12th the gold cost verses a Single Adamantine Gear/Tool. Realize these comparison's all use the same 0% Commission & 0% Speed Modifiers as base evaluators to keep it balanced.
No other profession even has a single item that can stack that high, let alone can be produce so quickly, and for so little gold cost.
DEVs aware of need to balance Alchemy with other Professions!
Currently you can earn Workshop 4 in 13.89 days [Alchemy] with MORAL spending in 1-2 minutes! If you crafted 12x18 extra potions stacks you could easily be done with Alchemy in 3, or 4 days; simply by emptying your delivery box 1-3 times daily, with a little MORAL thrown on for giggles. Every other PROF it will take over 10-15x longer, cost 12x more in gold, so why is balance important?
Cause the difference between Alchemy fully levelled, and virtually every other PROF, is too stark a contrast in extreme's. One is done in perhaps less than 5 days doing just MORAL & emptying Delivery BOX 1-3 times a day? While every other takes possibly 59-79 days and costs 12x more Gold!
PS: Did I say Alchemy can be done in 2-3 days, no tricks just plain, simple, follow every guideline for maximizing the best currency Potion at level 70, and then just emptying delivery box 4-5x each day, once every 3 hours or so? Now I'm certainly NOT going to be one who does it that often, maybe once a day, perhaps two at best but you get the point! At the start of the day immediately produce 120 Enhanced Superior Potions of Power using just MORAL, then craft 12x18 potions and wait for 3 hours before you empty and kick off the next day's task to be waiting for you and a few days later you done.
Gathering profession results also come in stacks of 12.
Everyone has access to Alchemy. There is no balance issue there. Cause anyone can do it. If someone uses another profession and wastes the gold and time, that is their choice.
It may be intended by the developers to have Alchemy be used for Workshop Upgrades. Or they may intend to change it. We don't know unless a Developer tells us their intent. The gold cost and time investment with Alchemy to upgrade the workshop seems about right to me.
I admit I did some testing on the weekend, but I never noticed it change to x12 until today. I know what I saw as well. Perhaps it changed in 1008.a2, but for sure in 0924.a1 and 0924.a2 or earlier it always was x11. I remember seeing x11 many, many times... ...especially with 1-2 issues and the delivery box.
As for your comment "there is no balance issue" I can somewhat agree or understand where your coming from. I mean currently alchemy can level a lot faster to Level 10-12. Especially if you rush experiments, simply cause they want to allow players to create potions as they level. I'd also certainly agree everybody should be considering to level alchemy on at least a few toons / characters, simply for the reason potions won't drop from NPCs anymore. So aside from getting a few lucky ones in Skill Nodes &/or Dungeons Chests you'll either need to create them or buy them. So unless you are someone who doesn't mind paying gold for far more potions, then the only question remains, does it cost more to make, or just to buy them? Guess it depends on your Commission multiplier, and getting at least a few Artisan's with -50% or even -25% Commission, to keep your costs down a bit and help out new players.
Regardless I'm sure we'll have a new PATCH tomorrow, to review and see what changes/revisions they've made. Realize often (not always) many of the builds we see, were mostly finished 2-3 months earlier. So some feedback we provided over the last 3-4 weeks is likely only going to be incorporated into builds that first week. Though I'm sure a few more critical ones sometimes are corrected a little faster depending on the priority it's given.
Back to Valandra and the Chaos she's weaving with the x11 verses x12 debate.
Allow the sale of any item from the Lady Begum list, regardless of the day. Such artificial silly impediment, not going to get you a lot of sympathy from a players.
When selecting a position from the dispatch board, a double click is unnecessary. Change it, because it often causes mistakes in the selection.
Add a search for the item "Buy new materials". I do not know by what key the items are placed there, but can go crazy looking for several at once. This is especially important for non-English people.
The option to reset the "morale" would be placed, for example, in the "favorites" tab. Someone who has to run all over the workshop to reset the "morale" for heavy cash, can quit it halfway.
Let our char sit on chairs, just like in Stronghold
The reliance on pure RNG is really oppressive. For instance, just now I tried making Vermilion Fabric Dye. I have a 75% success chance (yes, I have a mythic Forgehammer) and failed four times in a row. I get that it's a function of the random number generator; you're feeding it (most likely) a 32-bit seed value based on some criteria (time/character position/mouse position/previous result) or some combination of criteria. I hope it gets re-seeded after each and every attempt. At any rate, the tyranny of the random number generator is not only oppressive and demoralizing, it also doesn't reflect real life.
I'm an engineer. When we make something in real life, what do we do? If we're responsible (as any masterwork-level artisan would be), we do our due diligence: we research the potential techniques used to not only create what we seek but also techniques to minimize risk. Often, if possible, we practice first. We might prototype a solution using fewer resources to validate the design. We might also practice iteratively for the express purpose of seeking out any gotchas. And, of course, we attempt to collaborate with -- or at the very least, learn from -- those who have done similar work before. There is, of course the famous quote:
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants" -- Isaac Newton, 1675
When we attempt something and experience a failure, we don't simply roll the dice and try again. No responsible person does that -- we might perform a root cause analysis. We might perform careful tests on each intermediate step, measuring the results and comparing against what we might expect. We would employ the Scientific Method, formulating hypotheses on what could have caused the failure and devising tests specifically to test them. We might seek information from anyone who has performed similar steps before with similar materials. In short, we would consult the existing body of knowledge and attempt to formulate some sort of empirical test so we can learn why we experienced a failure. One thing we, as professionals, would most assuredly not do is simply "roll the dice" on an identical attempt.
How do you simplify and simulate this sort of thought process in a game? The success chance should slowly improve with each attempt. Further, you should be able to improve the rate at which it improves by doing some sort of research task. Maybe you go talk to sages (like Sage Bradda), spend time searching texts, talking to other artificers around the region, etc. Further, once you do start achieving success with something, the success chance should increase the more you do it: in life, the learning process doesn't end; as we become more familiar with the task, we learn or devise techniques that are (1) more reliable, (2) less time-consuming, (3) less costly, or some combination of them. An interesting dynamic could be a way to let you invest effort specifically toward improving one or more of those qualities. That is what we do in real life. The old saw is "fast, cheap, good -- pick two". Can you improve all three? Of course, just not at the same time. Generally we improve one quality, then carefully analyze it until we feel the dynamic is well-understood, then improve another quality.
When you stop performing a particular Masterwork task for an extended period of time, you should become "rusty", reflected in a slight worsening of the success chance. It should not revert back to the base chance, since any professional -- especially a master -- would be expected to take detailed notes on techniques and everything learned as those techniques were learned and modified. By the same token, the more often you perform a task in a given period of time, it should become "old-hat"/"mental muscle-memory" such that it becomes second-nature. This should improve your success chances as long as you don't let it atrophy such that you become "rusty".
[Removed my extra rant on the RNG as it's not covering any new ground. Besides, I'm fighting a cold and I'm decidedly grumpy. I don't want the main thrust of the post to get sidetracked.]
Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
I realize that you had intended to take gold out of the economy with these changes. And so on the surface, adding a way to purchase gold with AD would potentially add it back in.
However, you can balance Profession costs to take gold out of the economy AND take AD out of the economy as well. Correcting two issues. By setting the Gold to AD ratio, you would be creating a balancing tool for the economy.
You could still maintain your current gold sinks, as well.
> I don't know who really will use the wondrous bazaar to buy gold if the AH has a better return which it probably will.
If they sell it in the WB, it will cap the AD sink from the AH and the only time it will be purchased from the WB will be during the sale by those with VIP. By leaving it AH only there is the potential of a greater AD sink.