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anti elitism more problematic than elitism?
rockkk52
Member Posts: 19 Arc User
I know everyone who has played Neverwinter has at one time or another ran into a so called elitist. The actual definition of elitist differs from person to person but i think there is a general enough understanding of the term to agree that an elitist is someone to be avoided and can lessen the fun of a run and also might, in large groups, have a negative impact on the game. All this i can agree with, but something i don't hear talked about is the impact of the anti-elitist guilds and alliances on the game. I have only played Neverwinter for a little over a year but in that time i have been in multiple "anti-elitist" alliances. Some of the rules were if someone +ed in alliance chat no matter their gear or experience in the dungeon you had to take them. You also were not allowed to tell under geared or inexperienced ppl that they would not be able to complete the dungeon or if they did clear they wouldn't be much help. I wonder if these guilds and alliances are an important reason why RAQ, REQ, and even just fbi or msp runs are so painful. I mean its not really mean to state facts is it? If a character will not be of use in a dungeon wouldn't the fastest way to actually help them be to tell them that fact and then offer advice on how to improve or offer to teach the mechanics? It seems in such a system there would be little to no player development. All that would happen is it would accustom much of the new player base to being carried. Which would in turn fuel the elitists and perhaps push other geared and exped players into the elitist adjacent camps. Perhaps its not that content is too hard or that elitists are too mean. Perhaps its the opposite.
I am one who enjoys helping others learn dungeon mechanics particularly fbi and msp since they are fairly easy and fun if you follow the mechanics. But i cant help but ask the question would i have progressed and learned as much as quickly as i did if i had started in such a guild/alliance? Or would i still think my waters of elezahhd on my warlock was a good fit. Would i even have learned to tank at a high lvl? I don't think so although its impossible to tell entirely. All this is a bit of late night musing. But perhaps it food for thought.
I am one who enjoys helping others learn dungeon mechanics particularly fbi and msp since they are fairly easy and fun if you follow the mechanics. But i cant help but ask the question would i have progressed and learned as much as quickly as i did if i had started in such a guild/alliance? Or would i still think my waters of elezahhd on my warlock was a good fit. Would i even have learned to tank at a high lvl? I don't think so although its impossible to tell entirely. All this is a bit of late night musing. But perhaps it food for thought.
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Comments
It is impossible to learn without actually doing it. If somebody is actually refusing to learn, I don't think anybody would have a problem with you asking them to leave, but not giving the chance? Such guilds/alliances seek to teach or allow people to learn, not carry them.
I came from an alliance like the one you mentioned. it actually kind of drove me away from the game. you pretty much had to go to zone chat to get a run that wouldn't fail worse than just queing up in random que. and I am indeed now in an elitist alliance. it can be toxic in flavor. but the runs are fast easy to get and they don't fail as a vast whole unless half the party is intoxicated or something.
but oddly, overall the alliance is WAY less toxic than the alliance I came from with this attitude because people would exclude others out of the need to do some runs that didn't fail. and it was obvs. this created a ton of seething drama. as a vast whole this is absent in the elitist alliance. there was a lot of racial/sexist/ect talk that would rear it's head in the everyone gets a trophy (although the trophy is a lie) alliance... but nothing like that in the elitist guild..
so my take is maybe elitism isn't the toxic slug it's got the reputation to be. maybe it's not that bad.
it's the immature kids (regardless of age) that are the problem and you find them no matter where you look but if you give them fuel they flare.
If you want to know the answer for your question, how about a poll in a whole community? In game poll for everyone across all platforms. Let's see the results. And I ensure you - you won't like them.
The fundamental problem is that people do not want to realize they are not geared enough.
I mean, there is nothing personal or skill-based in that. It is just that your character has not yet reached the point in the development curve where it can be useful in dungeon X.
Going into dungeons with too low ILs just leads to a bad game experience for everyone.
I think it is better to communicate clearly to people what IL you need to perform your role somewhat well, then they know what they need to do to grow into a dungeon.
There IS a big problem in RQs with people far below the necessary IL queuing up, in particular for RAQ. Either nobody told them they will be unable to contribute, or they are just hoping to be carried and leeching.
To my knowledge, while a bit more common on consoles, there is only one such on PC, and it's recent, about a month old, and perhaps a couple older but not as hard defined.
I think many fancy themselves anti-elites, but at the same time make their groups in 15k+ 16k+ etc channels, and adhere to 'meta' without understanding or using the flexibility it gives, as in like you pointed out, allows to be inclusive.
In german there is a sarcastic joke: Wenn jeder an sich denkt dann ist an alle gedacht. In an other thread the OP wanted to harden all dungeons...face the truth ur an elist but u have alot of possiblitities to separate urself from "pugs"/causuals.
Promoting elitism/greed is a good trigger to fill the pockets of a game making company...
I'm still a member of one of those anti-elitist channels and my experience trying to run with them was horrible. Failing and wasting hours of one's time isn't helping them learn when their learning doesn't help them finish.
I'm happy to teach inexperienced players the mechanics I know, but when, as occurred today, I get a tank in the RAQ who holds less aggro than my Chultan Tiger companion and takes only 1/4 as much damage as I do, the problem is both with the game allowing that player in and with that player thinking he has any business in that content.
Also, I think every dungeon design after new CN is terrible (and new CN is boring), but that's another discussion.
The RAQ and REQ gear levels need to be increased, the dungeons need to be cleansed of the repetitive control/immunity/instadeath mechanics and really the whole queue reward system needs to be redone. It makes no sense AT ALL for random queues where the players have no control over what content they end up in to reward more AD than specific content.
This system and the bad dungeon design have destroyed what used to be a fun and rewarding catalog of epic content.
I've given up on the random queues as they contain too many dungeons that are just insanely buggy for me, my guild lead has done the same for similar reasons but with added lag.
Just let us do the dungeons we can do for the same rewards rather than trying to get us to do stuff we can't, meaning we don't do any dungeons.
I have taken 12K IL players through CR. Taken 11K Players through T9. Taken some lower IL players through CoDG.
I make sure they have a mic and join my chat as I explain mechanics and how the content works and how groups typically run the content. After the run we talk about how they can improve from artifacts, enchantments, companions, etc... after a few weeks I ask them to join to see if they had made improvements and some players really do and produce 25-50% more damage than they did previously and some go from a 11/12K to over 15K and are so much better.
As for players being carried. Go into port and look at who are calling out for CoDG, go into Brovia and look at who are calling out for CR. There are some very low IL players calling out for those content. And my experience with those players have been this, we fail or I get kicked right before I can claim my award. Yeah, that is what some of these players are now doing, kicking support players from their runs right at the last boss right before we can claim our award. So be wary when joining groups. In fact, I'm done join randoms out in zones. I will join alliance runs or no runs at all and with how dead my alliance has been as of late, I guess I will be spending more time away from NWO than playing any content due to a lack of players wanting to run CR or other end game content.
Trying to avoid writing another book on the topic, so I'll keep it short:
- Training runs and active learning with the community are great and should be encouraged and rewarded.
- Avoiding discussing practical matters such as what sorts of powers, rotations, and equipment one should use to be minimally effective to complete the content at hand is ridiculous.
- My alliance actively avoids using potentially discriminatory language (e.g. "lf 17k HDPS") as a rule, but it is acceptable to specify that you need someone experienced in a certain role in a specific dungeon for completion if necessary, mainly referring to core support in Cradle runs who know how not to fall off. If members want to make specific requests for an arbitrary item level, they can search public channels.
- Excessive coddling of players who might actually want to learn and improve can be an issue. I also agree that Cryptic is setting minimum item levels for participation in "advanced" low enough that it causes frustration and disappointment in less experienced players who expected a challenge, but not to have their hamsters handed to them in the first 30 seconds.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
First, as this is a game, no one can force anyone to do anything. Every decision that a player makes is 100% voluntary. Some players prefer guilds that require play with each other. Therefore, I have no qualms with any guild that sets rules that will require people, regardless of gear, preparedness or anything else, to run with other guild mates, because anyone in that guild is voluntarily accepting those rules. If a player does not want to accept those rules from that guild, they can leave and go to a guild that does not.
Second, as to the point that anti-elite guilds are part of the problem, I do not think they are. In my opinion, guilds are the best means to make long term friends in the game. Random runs are the opposite of guilds, short stints with a purpose to finish the content. Whether a guild is founded upon exclusionary principles like TIL, monetary donations, grind, TS, whatever...OR language, nationality, time zone...OR play styles or roles (I think there was a TR guild only at one time...I dont remember) or in game races (I know there was a drow only guild)...that is completely up to the founders of the guild and those who choose to stay. Whether it is successful in the long term is debatable. But, I cannot state with statistical or philosophical certainty that guilds that force play together are the cause or source of the attitude of going into dungeons unprepared or ignorant. If I were to make a guess, which is my opinion, I would think it is Cryptic's desire to focus on new players' experience, giving them a sense of advancement at too quick and a non-linear pace, so that they can catch up to long term players without having to go through everything before...e.g., skipping campaigns, barovia hunt gear drop, seals of the brave for really good rings and weapon sets. The focus by Cryptic on new players for their retention leads to frustration when the true end game (the high end dungeons) that do require knowledge of mechanics and do require research are smacked against with a quickly obtained, but poorly understood, character. Content that is skipped DOES provide information and practice. Time in the game, whether solo or grouped, is necessary to understand how it works.
So, either we accept Cryptic's business focus and provide feedback on how to mitigate the side-effects IN-GAME of that decision for all players, or we provide feedback to have Cryptic rethink its business model. I will not blame anyone for joining a random queue to try and get the quick AD, because that is how Cryptic has designed it. I think the design of random queue is at ODDS with the disjointed model to allow players to catch up quickly, and is the source/cause of the frustration for all players (long term 'elites' and new players).
Cheers and thanks for reading!
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
Please dont tell us on Monday to "gitgud" and then whine on Friday about the persecution of being an elitist.
Since the release of barovia and the changes to the queue system I see more of the latter than the former. People in barovia with a 7k IL wanting to be carried through the zone. Knowing full well that many of them are not new players but players that couldn't be bothered to run those toons before the free gear was given. Those players are also now jumping into more dungeons. There may be some legit new players not fully understanding that they have no business in those places but in my experience it is a vast majority of troll players.
I used to run dungeons all day and would help anyone that needed it. I had more of an issue with elitists demanding I go 150% speed all the way through so "THEY" can get "THEIR" AD and move onto the next toon. Since the release of barovia it has done a flip flop. At least before the new/undergeared player wanted to learn more often than not. I have since almost completely stopped running dungeons and almost never do the random queue. The drama is completely ruining the game for me and I see many other ppl with similar complaints.
It is a shame that on either side of that spectrum there is enough of an issue game wide that it pulls players from what should be a relaxing good time.
The reality is that a small group of people in the guild sat in Discord and ran the end game content themselves - occasionally throwing a bone to other players to "keep them happy". There was all sorts of anti-elitism talk but the reality is those at the top hid it by just not running content with most of the other players.
So doesn't matter if you are invited into an anti-elitist guild, its still there just restricted to those on top.
There are of course many players who while running content for themselves are also willing to help others - but then there are players who's primary, or some may think singular reason for running content is to help themselves even sometimes to the detriment of other party members.
That latter category are the textbook "elitist" in my opinion and I think they are easy to spot as in random content their characters are usually the ones who run off from other party members, sometimes rushing past mobs and are often the ones standing outside the last boss gate admonishing other players to "hurry up", as those other players are fighting through the mobs left behind.
I'm not really sure what an anti-elitist is other than those who object to the attitude and displays of elitism... nor do I see how being an anti-elitist is a problem... except to the elitist of course.
So, stop thinking you know everything, give people a chance, you never know if you’ll find someone really good at their job, until you do. And, by telling them no, you also might have caused someone really good to give up just a bit more (they might have been refused a bunch already, just need one person to say yes).
The group formations tends to avoid the guild and alliance channels and rather go through the public channels or as tells to friends.
Since everyone(but the low IL people...) know what IL levels they need for smooth runs, most runs are simply not advertised through the alliance or guild channel if that can force you to pick up sub-IL players.
So the actual effect of not being allowed to ask for IL levels etc in alliance or guild chat is less activity at the alliance and guild level, and thereby less building of team feeling and teamwork. It really works quite opposite of what the intent of such a rule is, and the low IL people do not get more opportunities to run stuff anyways.
There are 15 modules worth of content to bridge a player that just begins their path of progression after turning level 70, and those players that have kept ahead of the curve (e.g. those that test the new modules on preview); of course there is a spectrum of everyone in between.
The tools given to us to enjoy content are egalitarian so to speak (as long as one meets the requisite 'item level') which is by no means a strong predictor of experience or skill; everyone is thrown into the mixing pot of Random Queued Dungeons - a feature I believe was put in place to encourage the play of all dungeons/skirmishes, while reducing the time to wait for a dungeon to pop (there must be some sort of performance indicators by which Cryptic adheres to).
If one is uncomfortable with the mixing of characters across a wide gamut of experience via RQ, then there is nothing stopping people from forming their own groups. This can be achieved by channels, guilds, alliances, friend lists. These groups have differing views of elitism and anti-elitism. However, I believe grouping people as solely either anti-elitist or elitist is flawed. People will invariably be motivated by different things and at different times. There will be times when you cannot devote an extra hour or two 'helping' people through content, and there is nothing wrong with that; there will be times when you can. Furthermore, because you have achieved a certain item level (with hopefully corresponding experience and skill) there is nothing stopping you from joining, or indeed requesting, similar individuals who have invested time and thought into their character and how they contribute to an effective party.
The problem is the division of people into one camp or another. We are all on different paths on whatever journey we envisage for our characters in this MMO. Help out where you can, but also do what makes you enjoy this game, even if this means not pandering to other people's labels of what they perceive you to be.
I do this a lot, when i search for Tong or MSP. Even in CR i often carry someone with my group. Why not?