@johnnyreklaw#1518 even if they were to boost some of your skill dmg. It wouldn't do much to make the SW a desirable class to bring since everything dies to fast for your dmg potential to come to be.
How then to make the SW a competitive class when GWF's, HR's and CW's can hit harder and faster?
Your comment is spot on there and it shows the ridiculous amount of weakeness SW has:
- Mediocre dot/burst damage.
- Very long animations and cooldowns.
- It takes a while to set up damage, by the time a SW curses + drops pillar/uses BoVA to generate sparks, trash mobs will be at low health or dead already and if bosses, by the time SW is setting up damage, other classes are almost ready to land their multimillion burst damage attacks which in turn take out a lot of the boss' health/flat out melt it.
- SW passive powers are a joke. Compare them to those of other classes and try not laugh for hours... SW class features are horribly underpowered at best, many of them are utter garbage.
SW needs all the aforementioned problems to be addressed otherwise it will continue to underperform.
Hi Guys I don't main a SW, so I can't claim to know anything about the class... A good friend of mine does though, and is just now noticing, at about 13.3k IL, that he really can't bring the damage when a similar IL GWF, HR or CW is running with him
Based on his performance when we run together through Chult or River District stuff, he seems pretty powerful, especially when my DC is buffing
That said, we will be looking at his build to see if he has a structural problem, but as a forum user, I can't help but see you guys constantly complaining that SW is pathetic in nearly every thread... I get that you want it fixed, if it truly is the case (again, I don't know for myself) that the SW class is altogether broken, but you guys ARE supposed to be getting a work over, and if you really want that to get you the things you want, I think you need to be a little more objective in your approach
I've followed this thread, but I doubt the dev that ends up working on your class work over will, as the OP started it to complain that the OBC, which was only proccing on dots for SW as an exception, was brought into line with how it works with every other class... I doubt that's going to change, and I doubt anyone wants to read what appears to be 7 pages about that... the argument is a non-starter
If you really want to get the most out of your upcoming refresh, I would suggest you do more than bring up your current pathetic state in every single thread on the forums
Install ACT, if you haven't already, and make threads where you start with posting every little detail of your SW build, then run CN with a generic heal-bot (no buff) DC, a straight up no-buff tank, a Combat HR and a GWF
Then, post your logs... you can even start/stop ACT at each boss so you can show performance for trash mobs vs bosses, single target vs AOE
Do this for every viable build, and then feat by feat, power by power, explain how things are supposed to work together and how they currently do not... make feasible suggestions about how to fix feats and powers that seem broken, weak or generally useless
Don't let those threads get off point... If you guys disagree on detail stuff, break those discussions out of the main thread and figure out compromises... Make sure that when your dev does get started on fixing things, you give him all the meat and potatoes he needs to get started and produce a quality rebuild... Don't make him sift through a trash pile for a half-eaten sandwich
TL;DR: Give up on OBC, Get your hamsters together if you want a decent shot at the refresh you really want
If this makes you guys mad, I'm sorry... not asking you to do this for me, but do it for my SW friend... he's got cancer
- As changes were made to the class since it was created and parsing damage becase was possible, PC warlocks (because not all here are, like myself) reported with ACT the consequences of said changes, they went mostly ignored, this includes mod 10.5 TC that gutted up to 40% of Hellbringer's dps, calculations were made by @thefabricant and tests done by warlocks like Fernu and Natsu which confirmed he was right. PC SWs posted their ACT stuff and it got ignored, some of them didn't bother with the class anymore. As you don't know about our dying community of course you don't know that what you suggested about ACT was in fact done from ages ago but it just felt on deaf ears.
- The class objectively is the worst damage dealer. Top tier players and those of others who run with them can confirm this, some of them barely play their locks or just retired them. If you don't like us warlocks commenting on the pitiful state of the class in threads where it is relevant to do so you can ignore our posts.
- You said "I've followed this thread, but I doubt the dev that ends up working on your class work over will, as the OP started it to complain that the OBC, which was only proccing on dots for SW as an exception..." which is wrong, as you don't know the class you do not know that the stapple power of Hellbringer, not only has pitiful damage, it is broken in the sense of having 0% crit chance, devs put an ICD to OBC but didn't fix the power which has been reported as broken for a very long time now. OBC wasn't proccing only on dots (2 of them being subpar, dreateft and BoVA), non crit powers activate it as well. Devs of course bothered putting an ICD on OBC but left PoP broken, having a power of a so called damage dealer not able to crit at all is both baffling and unacceptable, not that it would be good that any class had this issue.
- We are supposed to get a rework? There's an astronomic difference between "being supposed to get something" and actually getting it. The class gets reworked or doesn't get reworked at all, "being supposed" to be reworked does in no way, shape or form change its current state nor encourage people to stick with the class.
- "Do this for every viable build, and then feat by feat, power by power, explain how things are supposed to work together and how they currently do not... make feasible suggestions about how to fix feats and powers that seem broken, weak or generally useless" Yet again suggesting something that has been done already. PC SWs and notable members of the community like @thefabricant@michela123@rjc9000 have covered some of what few powers are worth something (fury tree) Making feasible suggestions? That has been done quite a few times already but you don't know that either.
- " Get your hamsters together if you want a decent shot at the refresh you really want" what. Those of us who still bother playing the class and have it up to date in campaigns (instead of mere invoke slaves/t1-t2 ad farming toons) do build our toons based on ACT stuff and the class simply is inferior to the others. Suggestions were made, we asked for devs to take a look at SW and all that has been ignored.
- "If this makes you guys mad, I'm sorry..." not mad at all but a raised eyebrow for sure. You literary suggested to do things that were done a very long time ago and went ignored by the developers. We as community have lost some of those SW testers so that doesn't help either, devs threw so many nerfs down SWs throats even the top tier ones are pretty much done with their toons.
On making SW great again I agree though, the class desperately needs a rework.
Gates of Hell and Immolation Spirits are not proccing weapon enchantments and PoP cannot proc Holy Avenger
Edit:
One more thing I can think of which is similar to mamalion's report on fire bonus of WE vs level 73 enemies: Murderours Flames (fury feat) is being mitigated vs level 73 enemies, at least this held true las time it was tested by @stathisjoestar
After researching it for a bit, I finally figured out why Pillar of Power wasn't critically striking. I was also able to track down the problem with Murderous Flames, so hopefully you Scourge Warlocks out there will be happy to see these two fixes!
Pillar of Power: This power now has the ability to Critically Strike Murderous Flames: This feat should no longer be affected by level based mitigation twice.
While this certainly does not address all the spots where the owlbear change was affecting warlocks, it should mitigate the damage reduction for DPS/Fury type builds.
Gates of Hell and Immolation Spirits are not proccing weapon enchantments and PoP cannot proc Holy Avenger
Edit:
One more thing I can think of which is similar to mamalion's report on fire bonus of WE vs level 73 enemies: Murderours Flames (fury feat) is being mitigated vs level 73 enemies, at least this held true las time it was tested by @stathisjoestar
After researching it for a bit, I finally figured out why Pillar of Power wasn't critically striking. I was also able to track down the problem with Murderous Flames, so hopefully you Scourge Warlocks out there will be happy to see these two fixes!
Pillar of Power: This power now has the ability to Critically Strike Murderous Flames: This feat should no longer be affected by level based mitigation twice.
While this certainly does not address all the spots where the owlbear change was affecting warlocks, it should mitigate the damage reduction for DPS/Fury type builds.
no, it doesn't mitigate the damage loss because now there are 2 paths of Pillar of power + Owlbear cub. - You are low crit DPS(low crit chance) so now your Owlbear cub will proc 8 times, instead of 16, from Pillar of Power. Being correct, it will proc 8 * (1-(CC/100) times instead of 16. - You are high crit DPS (100% crit chance) so now Owlbear will never crit, so that's 0 times instead of 16.
We could try to do some Math and look at how much current damage Pillar of Power should be doing right now to compensate that Owlbear cub will not proc anymore. Let think about a middle buff party so your Power is 150K and your efectiveness 200%.
150K Power * 50% OBC * 75% Level 73 Monster * 200% efectiveness = 112.5K Damage from OBC per tick.
So the question is, will every Pillar of Power tick do 112.5K thanks to being able to crit?
In conclusion we have (Power * 0.5) / (1 + (Critical Severity / 100)), so everyone's mileage will vary depending on their buffed Power and Critical Severity.
BTW why none is mentioned curse problem? Most of tab powers on other classes are instant in application. But SW curse is very long, requires no movement, and even some SW encounteres are faster than that. I think curse should instant cast. There is a natural delay between curses anyway as one need to move mouse and target more mobs for curse. Maybe some curse-related passives powers will be overpowerd by it, but they could be balanced later.
Curse is essential to dps for all SW branches, but I often see mob packs obliterated while I'm just applying three curses. Please make curse instant cast.
Possibly, we do not get idea of dev's intention regarding SW. If I recall correctly, all periods when SW brough acceptable DPS, there was some problem in feat/boon/passive design. So I'm starting to get an idea, that according to design, SW need to seek cracks in universe (bugs) to extract demonic energy (maximize dps). God (devs) periodically close these cracks, possibly punishing those caught near that cracks (bans), to suggest finding next ones.
no, it doesn't mitigate the damage loss because now there are 2 paths of Pillar of power + Owlbear cub. - You are low crit DPS(low crit chance) so now your Owlbear cub will proc 8 times, instead of 16, from Pillar of Power. Being correct, it will proc 8 * (1-(CC/100) times instead of 16. - You are high crit DPS (100% crit chance) so now Owlbear will never crit, so that's 0 times instead of 16.
We could try to do some Math and look at how much current damage Pillar of Power should be doing right now to compensate that Owlbear cub will not proc anymore. Let think about a middle buff party so your Power is 150K and your efectiveness 200%.
150K Power * 50% OBC * 75% Level 73 Monster * 200% efectiveness = 112.5K Damage from OBC per tick.
So the question is, will every Pillar of Power tick do 112.5K thanks to being able to crit?
In conclusion we have (Power * 0.5) / (1 + (Critical Severity / 100)), so everyone's mileage will vary depending on their buffed Power and Critical Severity.
Something to keep in mind with your analysis ... you may be getting 150K power with bondings and power sharing on live right now, but you are not going to be getting that once 12B goes live. Bonding stones will be far less effective and not only that they no longer dynamically update like they do on live, so power sharing will take a big hit. Instead of 150K power, you might try more like 75K power ....
Your analysis also takes kind of the two extremes for warlocks. Sure, there are plenty of 15K warlocks out there with an effective 100% crit. But most warlocks in the 9-12K range have far less than this (40-60% is more realistic), so they are more likely to get a mix of crits and owlbear procs out of pillar of power.
So on the whole I still think the fact that pillar of power can crit now is good news for warlocks, especially given the fact that the owlbear changes are still in the current build and likely going live with 12B.
I tryed to simplify the use cases, the same way I tried to simplify the numbers.
For example, I put an arbitrary amount of 150K Power as a middle party (12K-14K) not coordinating with Teamspeak/Discord because a coordinated party will get bigger numbers, the same way that a high end party (14K-17K) will be playing with 250-300K Power.
The same way, from my personal experience the most affected warlocks will be the ones with 100% CC because the Owlbear cub will do absolutely nothing.
About how much Power we will be able to get with Module 12B+ due to the bondings being toned down it's still to be seen, mainly because the stats being refreshed with every attack or not is still not confirmed (at least I didn't see the confirmation).
Once again, from my experience, a coordinated party will still get 150-200K Power, and all these hypothesis are based on "old" Rank 12 enchants, and not the new rank 13/14 enchants.
By the way, I'm not totally saying that Pillar of power being able to crit is absolutely bad, I just try to say that I do hope that Pillar of power damage gets some temporary love just because it mostly neglets a pretty expensive investment we had to do with the owlbear cub.
PS: I do still hope we the warlocks will get a cool rework soon.
One question as there are many warlocks reading this thread.
Has the Tyrannical curse stopped working on CC inmune mobs in PVE? When I use it an a normal enemy in Chult it works, but when I use it on CC inmune ones instead of being marked with a TT curse it gets marked with a lesser curse.
@nisckis do you mean on preview? Because if so I can't test that out on console. If you mean on live, I ran t9g with a friend and 3 other guys, one of them from my contacts list and is a HB SW, as far as I remember, TC was working as usual.
If you can record a video and submit it on your bug report that would be helpful, if what you found out applies everywhere then that will be a significant dps loss for HB.
As for PoP I do agree and I wrote as feedback on the bug fix thread, it needs its damage increased substantially otherwise PoP being able to crit will actually be another dps nerf for us as it will do less than PoP with 0% crit chance + OBC.
@jaime4312#3760 the TT bug at Chult is in live server. I'll try to record a video tomorrow.
Updated 2017-10-09: thanks @jaime4312#3760 you are right, it's seems to be a bug only affecting Tyranosaur and TRex. I have tried other rare hunts and Dungeon Bosses and TT curse works fine. The funny thing is that KoS HE works fine too.
@nisckis so is it a Chult specific thing? If so, does it happen in T9G as well?
Thanks, looking forward to checking that video of yours once it's ready.
I will try testing on my SW later on to see if its happening on console as well, maybe the PC version got a ninja tweak or error that broke TC in Chult? Either way, I need to see this myself, it sounds really bad, without TC, SW dps is even worse.
Edit:
Ya I see what you mean, tried a bit and couldn't get TC to work on either tyrannosarus variant, when other dinos where nearby they took no damage whatsoever, TC icon on the target was missing as well. I guess I never saw that glitch as never used TC against rexes
TC worked on allosaurus and rotting ogre by the way.
BTW why none is mentioned curse problem? Most of tab powers on other classes are instant in application. But SW curse is very long, requires no movement, and even some SW encounteres are faster than that. I think curse should instant cast. There is a natural delay between curses anyway as one need to move mouse and target more mobs for curse. Maybe some curse-related passives powers will be overpowerd by it, but they could be balanced later.
Curse is essential to dps for all SW branches, but I often see mob packs obliterated while I'm just applying three curses. Please make curse instant cast.
Possibly, we do not get idea of dev's intention regarding SW. If I recall correctly, all periods when SW brough acceptable DPS, there was some problem in feat/boon/passive design. So I'm starting to get an idea, that according to design, SW need to seek cracks in universe (bugs) to extract demonic energy (maximize dps). God (devs) periodically close these cracks, possibly punishing those caught near that cracks (bans), to suggest finding next ones.
Fwiw - I stopped cursing before fights. I'm sitting at 83% crit and find it more effective to jump in with BoVA with acc slotted and fiery bolt after every mob has minor curse. Takes about 2 essence defiler at-will attacks at most before the entire mob is covered. Then only time I manually curse anymore is for curse consume powers such as soul scorch and hadars grasp.
Could be interesting if tab applied the curse bonus to the next power used instead of needing the curse a target and watch the game randomly attack something in the way or even off screen. With now criting PoP (right?) and BoVA, minor curses spread like wild fire but this would only be effective towards higher IL (12k+) toons.
It'd also be nice if parting blasphemy gave a % damage increase similar to a GWF's destoryer cap stone feat instead of %50 more weapon damage. It'd help SB warlocks catch up to hb's with their PoP. *day dream*
Curse is essential to dps for all SW branches, but I often see mob packs obliterated while I'm just applying three curses. Please make curse instant cast.
Fwiw - I stopped cursing before fights. I'm sitting at 83% crit and find it more effective to jump in with BoVA with acc slotted and fiery bolt after every mob has minor curse. Then only time I manually curse anymore is for curse consume powers such as soul scorch and hadars grasp.
It'd also be nice if parting blasphemy gave a % damage increase similar to a GWF's destoryer cap stone feat instead of %50 more weapon damage. It'd help SB warlocks catch up to hb's with their PoP. *day dream*
If you ever run Act, you will see that the damage % dealt by lesser curse is very low, even if all the mobs get it. A real curse is definitely better. If you are afraid of losing time, just curse the mob with higher HP.
A curse is a curse is a curse. As I read it, the only powers that supposedly interact with lesser curse differently rather than a warlocks curse are the powers that consume the curse.
Probably has something with the way that if you curse multiple targets manually, it splits to damage boosts between all the targets (even though the tool tip[ no longer says it does that)? So manually cursing only one target is doing more damage over all because bigger hit then gets spread to targets cursed with minor/lesser are getting the full boost of the cursed damage?
If you manually apply 3 curses, the damage is NOT split in 3, and each of the 3 target gets the full benefit of the curse. Lesser curses do not have the same mechanism as the manual curses and they are like cherry on top. They have their own damage, and will not give you the 20% (30% with brutal curse iirc) more damage of the manual curse.
EDIT: my tests on ACT using one hit of hand of blight (main de fléau): without any curse at all
with lesser curse (I have cast a fiery bolt before to generate the LC)
with manual curses on 1 or 2 dummies, we have 30% more damage as expected:
A curse is not a curse. The sentence "counts as a Curse for power interactions" is only worth for Curse Bite encounter or stuff like that.
See, I question that because of the line "counts as a Curse for power interactions" which implies that the 20% from cursing applies for minor, lesser, and warlocks bargain. If you have the ACT chart to prove it though, please, show me the money!
In all seriousness though, I've noticed mobs in chult melt much quicker and my dps in fbi/msva has gone up.
See, I question that because of the line "counts as a Curse for power interactions" which implies that the 20% from cursing applies for minor, lesser, and warlocks bargain. If you have the ACT chart to prove it though, please, show me the money!
In all seriousness though, I've noticed mobs in chult melt much quicker and my dps in fbi/msva has gone up.
I have edited my previous post with ACT figures: enjoy
To come back to the owlbear cub, the encounter "pillar of power" will be able to crit when the patch goes live (cf. previewshard October bugfix section of the forum) but the current base damage of this power is very very low : when i hover my mouse over it, it is roughly 2.4-2.8k while killing flame is roughly 15.5k to 45k (if i remember correctly what i saw yesterday)... And it is 10 times weaker than a Hellish Rebuke at-will and weaker than any other at-will! So even if it crits, the damage will be worse than keeping a non-crit pillar of power with nerfed owlbear. What is the point of critting with such a low damage (unless it crits several times?)?
High crit warlocks are going to be even more penalized by this change, and crit is supposed to our primary stat/goal so....
The reason Pillar of Power got its last fix on the last dev. pass was to correct our lack of defensive skills. At that time all we had was Shadow Slip and yes they reworked that also . So Pillar of Power was used to allow the SW class to have a second option.And with the hopes that would be enought to correct the fact that we still do not have a dodge like the other lower armor toons.It was with the understanding this would cost us an encounter spot and we would need to have an Increase to our other encounter and at will to make up for the lose.While we are still waiting to see that increase I do hope they will be very careful not to in any way nerf the Pillar of Power as a defensive skill because doing so will only increase our lack of dps why because a dead toon does not make dps. while sitting back at the camp fire.
Yo as per @werdandi#8366 testing, Tyrannical Curse is being mitigated by level 73 enemies. For some time now, I have been wondering if Creeping Death is having the same problem, could you guys try ACT that please? It wouldn't suprise me at all if one of our only 2 meh daylies for aoe damage is being penalized by level 73 enemies o.O
Yo as per @werdandi#8366 testing, Tyrannical Curse is being mitigated by level 73 enemies. For some time now, I have been wondering if Creeping Death is having the same problem, could you guys try ACT that please? It wouldn't suprise me at all if one of our only 2 meh daylies for aoe damage is being penalized by level 73 enemies o.O
Just for completeness this is how every Creeping Death damage tick is calculated.
Take Base damage of original hit.
Divide it by 4, and queue them.
Unqueue tick and apply damage buffs and debuffs. Yes, level 73 monster difference is applied here, but remember that we started with base damage, not modified damage.
Voilà, this is the tick damage, as far as I know.
As you can see, the buffs and debuffs are not snapshotted when the ticks are put in the DoT queue. If this is good or bad I'm not absolutely sure, but from my point of view it seems to be good as you always get the most recent buffs/debuffs, but that also means that some of these ticks will lose some buff/debuff from very short time lived buffs/debuffs.
TIME ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL FLANK BASEDAMAGE EFFECTIVENESS
11:25:04 Hand of Blight Melee Physical Target Dummy 2586,5 True False 3091,3 83,7 %
TIME ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL FLANK BASEDAMAGE EFFECTIVENESS
11:25:10 Creeping Death Physical Target Dummy 446,0 False False 463,7 96,2 %
11:25:09 Creeping Death Physical Target Dummy 446,0 False False 463,7 96,2 %
11:25:08 Creeping Death Physical Target Dummy 446,0 False False 463,7 96,2 %
11:25:06 Creeping Death Physical Target Dummy 407,4 False False 463,7 87,9 %
Btw, Pillar of Power still doesn't proc weapons enchants as Icy terrain (CW) and Smoke bomb (TR) do, which seems pretty unfair because these three encounters are analogous to each other, they leave a zone at the floor that damages enemies if they stay inside of it.
Just tested Gates of Hell and it procs Creeping Death.
Anyway, why is people using Gates of Hell?
It has been fixed (i guess). And gates of hell daily is quite decent in Tong for trash
ps: i like your explanation for creeping death. My maths are more basic and I would just have calculated if CD was 60% of the damage before going further.
One more last testing, this time Tab Curse. It does NOT split the damage bonus if you put more than one mark, so yes, we can put all three marks freely.
The only thing is that you have to remember that they had to introduce a subtle delay when we apply Tab curses, because marking too fast was causing problems. So we can apply all three curses quite fast if we don't smash the tab key like crazy.
Comments
- Mediocre dot/burst damage.
- Very long animations and cooldowns.
- It takes a while to set up damage, by the time a SW curses + drops pillar/uses BoVA to generate sparks, trash mobs will be at low health or dead already and if bosses, by the time SW is setting up damage, other classes are almost ready to land their multimillion burst damage attacks which in turn take out a lot of the boss' health/flat out melt it.
- SW passive powers are a joke. Compare them to those of other classes and try not laugh for hours... SW class features are horribly underpowered at best, many of them are utter garbage.
SW needs all the aforementioned problems to be addressed otherwise it will continue to underperform.
I don't main a SW, so I can't claim to know anything about the class... A good friend of mine does though, and is just now noticing, at about 13.3k IL, that he really can't bring the damage when a similar IL GWF, HR or CW is running with him
Based on his performance when we run together through Chult or River District stuff, he seems pretty powerful, especially when my DC is buffing
That said, we will be looking at his build to see if he has a structural problem, but as a forum user, I can't help but see you guys constantly complaining that SW is pathetic in nearly every thread... I get that you want it fixed, if it truly is the case (again, I don't know for myself) that the SW class is altogether broken, but you guys ARE supposed to be getting a work over, and if you really want that to get you the things you want, I think you need to be a little more objective in your approach
I've followed this thread, but I doubt the dev that ends up working on your class work over will, as the OP started it to complain that the OBC, which was only proccing on dots for SW as an exception, was brought into line with how it works with every other class... I doubt that's going to change, and I doubt anyone wants to read what appears to be 7 pages about that... the argument is a non-starter
If you really want to get the most out of your upcoming refresh, I would suggest you do more than bring up your current pathetic state in every single thread on the forums
Install ACT, if you haven't already, and make threads where you start with posting every little detail of your SW build, then run CN with a generic heal-bot (no buff) DC, a straight up no-buff tank, a Combat HR and a GWF
Then, post your logs... you can even start/stop ACT at each boss so you can show performance for trash mobs vs bosses, single target vs AOE
Do this for every viable build, and then feat by feat, power by power, explain how things are supposed to work together and how they currently do not... make feasible suggestions about how to fix feats and powers that seem broken, weak or generally useless
Don't let those threads get off point... If you guys disagree on detail stuff, break those discussions out of the main thread and figure out compromises... Make sure that when your dev does get started on fixing things, you give him all the meat and potatoes he needs to get started and produce a quality rebuild... Don't make him sift through a trash pile for a half-eaten sandwich
TL;DR: Give up on OBC, Get your hamsters together if you want a decent shot at the refresh you really want
If this makes you guys mad, I'm sorry... not asking you to do this for me, but do it for my SW friend... he's got cancer
Make SW great again!
- As changes were made to the class since it was created and parsing damage becase was possible, PC warlocks (because not all here are, like myself) reported with ACT the consequences of said changes, they went mostly ignored, this includes mod 10.5 TC that gutted up to 40% of Hellbringer's dps, calculations were made by @thefabricant and tests done by warlocks like Fernu and Natsu which confirmed he was right. PC SWs posted their ACT stuff and it got ignored, some of them didn't bother with the class anymore. As you don't know about our dying community of course you don't know that what you suggested about ACT was in fact done from ages ago but it just felt on deaf ears.
- The class objectively is the worst damage dealer. Top tier players and those of others who run with them can confirm this, some of them barely play their locks or just retired them. If you don't like us warlocks commenting on the pitiful state of the class in threads where it is relevant to do so you can ignore our posts.
- You said "I've followed this thread, but I doubt the dev that ends up working on your class work over will, as the OP started it to complain that the OBC, which was only proccing on dots for SW as an exception..." which is wrong, as you don't know the class you do not know that the stapple power of Hellbringer, not only has pitiful damage, it is broken in the sense of having 0% crit chance, devs put an ICD to OBC but didn't fix the power which has been reported as broken for a very long time now. OBC wasn't proccing only on dots (2 of them being subpar, dreateft and BoVA), non crit powers activate it as well. Devs of course bothered putting an ICD on OBC but left PoP broken, having a power of a so called damage dealer not able to crit at all is both baffling and unacceptable, not that it would be good that any class had this issue.
- We are supposed to get a rework? There's an astronomic difference between "being supposed to get something" and actually getting it. The class gets reworked or doesn't get reworked at all, "being supposed" to be reworked does in no way, shape or form change its current state nor encourage people to stick with the class.
- "Do this for every viable build, and then feat by feat, power by power, explain how things are supposed to work together and how they currently do not... make feasible suggestions about how to fix feats and powers that seem broken, weak or generally useless" Yet again suggesting something that has been done already. PC SWs and notable members of the community like @thefabricant @michela123 @rjc9000 have covered some of what few powers are worth something (fury tree) Making feasible suggestions? That has been done quite a few times already but you don't know that either.
- " Get your hamsters together if you want a decent shot at the refresh you really want" what. Those of us who still bother playing the class and have it up to date in campaigns (instead of mere invoke slaves/t1-t2 ad farming toons) do build our toons based on ACT stuff and the class simply is inferior to the others. Suggestions were made, we asked for devs to take a look at SW and all that has been ignored.
- "If this makes you guys mad, I'm sorry..." not mad at all but a raised eyebrow for sure. You literary suggested to do things that were done a very long time ago and went ignored by the developers. We as community have lost some of those SW testers so that doesn't help either, devs threw so many nerfs down SWs throats even the top tier ones are pretty much done with their toons.
On making SW great again I agree though, the class desperately needs a rework.
Play sw more than 2 years, and now i feel disappointed. No positive emotions. We try https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1229992/the-problem-of-interaction-scourge-warlocks/p1 say about sw broblems, but nobody cares.
So, SW need more nerf. Maybe just delete the sw and will not scoff?
Ok, just rework, maby then i can stay on this class more time.
Peace.
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
no, it doesn't mitigate the damage loss because now there are 2 paths of Pillar of power + Owlbear cub.
- You are low crit DPS(low crit chance) so now your Owlbear cub will proc 8 times, instead of 16, from Pillar of Power. Being correct, it will proc 8 * (1-(CC/100) times instead of 16.
- You are high crit DPS (100% crit chance) so now Owlbear will never crit, so that's 0 times instead of 16.
We could try to do some Math and look at how much current damage Pillar of Power should be doing right now to compensate that Owlbear cub will not proc anymore. Let think about a middle buff party so your Power is 150K and your efectiveness 200%.
150K Power * 50% OBC * 75% Level 73 Monster * 200% efectiveness = 112.5K Damage from OBC per tick.
So the question is, will every Pillar of Power tick do 112.5K thanks to being able to crit?
112.5K / (1+1.75 Critical Severity) = 41K Damage (Transcendent Dread).
In conclusion we have (Power * 0.5) / (1 + (Critical Severity / 100)), so everyone's mileage will vary depending on their buffed Power and Critical Severity.
Curse is essential to dps for all SW branches, but I often see mob packs obliterated while I'm just applying three curses. Please make curse instant cast.
Possibly, we do not get idea of dev's intention regarding SW. If I recall correctly, all periods when SW brough acceptable DPS, there was some problem in feat/boon/passive design. So I'm starting to get an idea, that according to design, SW need to seek cracks in universe (bugs) to extract demonic energy (maximize dps). God (devs) periodically close these cracks, possibly punishing those caught near that cracks (bans), to suggest finding next ones.
Your analysis also takes kind of the two extremes for warlocks. Sure, there are plenty of 15K warlocks out there with an effective 100% crit. But most warlocks in the 9-12K range have far less than this (40-60% is more realistic), so they are more likely to get a mix of crits and owlbear procs out of pillar of power.
So on the whole I still think the fact that pillar of power can crit now is good news for warlocks, especially given the fact that the owlbear changes are still in the current build and likely going live with 12B.
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
I tryed to simplify the use cases, the same way I tried to simplify the numbers.
For example, I put an arbitrary amount of 150K Power as a middle party (12K-14K) not coordinating with Teamspeak/Discord because a coordinated party will get bigger numbers, the same way that a high end party (14K-17K) will be playing with 250-300K Power.
The same way, from my personal experience the most affected warlocks will be the ones with 100% CC because the Owlbear cub will do absolutely nothing.
About how much Power we will be able to get with Module 12B+ due to the bondings being toned down it's still to be seen, mainly because the stats being refreshed with every attack or not is still not confirmed (at least I didn't see the confirmation).
Once again, from my experience, a coordinated party will still get 150-200K Power, and all these hypothesis are based on "old"
Rank 12 enchants, and not the new rank 13/14 enchants.
By the way, I'm not totally saying that Pillar of power being able to crit is absolutely bad, I just try to say that I do hope that Pillar of power damage gets some temporary love just because it mostly neglets a pretty expensive investment we had to do with the owlbear cub.
PS: I do still hope we the warlocks will get a cool rework soon.
Has the Tyrannical curse stopped working on CC inmune mobs in PVE? When I use it an a normal enemy in Chult it works, but when I use it on CC inmune ones instead of being marked with a TT curse it gets marked with a lesser curse.
I have posted this in October bug fix thread too.
If you can record a video and submit it on your bug report that would be helpful, if what you found out applies everywhere then that will be a significant dps loss for HB.
As for PoP I do agree and I wrote as feedback on the bug fix thread, it needs its damage increased substantially otherwise PoP being able to crit will actually be another dps nerf for us as it will do less than PoP with 0% crit chance + OBC.
Updated 2017-10-09: thanks @jaime4312#3760 you are right, it's seems to be a bug only affecting Tyranosaur and TRex. I have tried other rare hunts and Dungeon Bosses and TT curse works fine. The funny thing is that KoS HE works fine too.
Thanks, looking forward to checking that video of yours once it's ready.
I will try testing on my SW later on to see if its happening on console as well, maybe the PC version got a ninja tweak or error that broke TC in Chult? Either way, I need to see this myself, it sounds really bad, without TC, SW dps is even worse.
Edit:
Ya I see what you mean, tried a bit and couldn't get TC to work on either tyrannosarus variant, when other dinos where nearby they took no damage whatsoever, TC icon on the target was missing as well. I guess I never saw that glitch as never used TC against rexes
TC worked on allosaurus and rotting ogre by the way.
Could be interesting if tab applied the curse bonus to the next power used instead of needing the curse a target and watch the game randomly attack something in the way or even off screen. With now criting PoP (right?) and BoVA, minor curses spread like wild fire but this would only be effective towards higher IL (12k+) toons.
It'd also be nice if parting blasphemy gave a % damage increase similar to a GWF's destoryer cap stone feat instead of %50 more weapon damage. It'd help SB warlocks catch up to hb's with their PoP. *day dream*
A real curse is definitely better. If you are afraid of losing time, just curse the mob with higher HP.
I like your idea for parting blasphemy.
Probably has something with the way that if you curse multiple targets manually, it splits to damage boosts between all the targets (even though the tool tip[ no longer says it does that)? So manually cursing only one target is doing more damage over all because bigger hit then gets spread to targets cursed with minor/lesser are getting the full boost of the cursed damage?
Lesser curses do not have the same mechanism as the manual curses and they are like cherry on top. They have their own damage, and will not give you the 20% (30% with brutal curse iirc) more damage of the manual curse.
EDIT: my tests on ACT using one hit of hand of blight (main de fléau):
without any curse at all
with lesser curse (I have cast a fiery bolt before to generate the LC)
with manual curses on 1 or 2 dummies, we have 30% more damage as expected:
A curse is not a curse. The sentence "counts as a Curse for power interactions" is only worth for Curse Bite encounter or stuff like that.
In all seriousness though, I've noticed mobs in chult melt much quicker and my dps in fbi/msva has gone up.
To come back to the owlbear cub, the encounter "pillar of power" will be able to crit when the patch goes live (cf. previewshard October bugfix section of the forum) but the current base damage of this power is very very low : when i hover my mouse over it, it is roughly 2.4-2.8k while killing flame is roughly 15.5k to 45k (if i remember correctly what i saw yesterday)... And it is 10 times weaker than a Hellish Rebuke at-will and weaker than any other at-will!
So even if it crits, the damage will be worse than keeping a non-crit pillar of power with nerfed owlbear.
What is the point of critting with such a low damage (unless it crits several times?)?
High crit warlocks are going to be even more penalized by this change, and crit is supposed to our primary stat/goal so....
@nisckis @etelgrin @rjc9000 @michela123 @thefabricant
Original hit: 1006.83
Creeping Death: 151.024 * 4 = 604.096
Level 73 monster
TIME ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL FLANK BASEDAMAGE EFFECTIVENESS 11:04:38 Hand of Blight Melee Physical Target Dummy 1150,8 False False 1427,5 80,6 %TIME ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL FLANK BASEDAMAGE EFFECTIVENESS 11:04:44 Creeping Death Physical Target Dummy 172,6 False False 214,1 80,6 % 11:04:43 Creeping Death Physical Target Dummy 172,6 False False 214,1 80,6 % 11:04:41 Creeping Death Physical Target Dummy 172,6 False False 214,1 80,6 % 11:04:40 Creeping Death Physical Target Dummy 172,6 False False 214,1 80,6 %Just for completeness this is how every Creeping Death damage tick is calculated.
- Take Base damage of original hit.
- Divide it by 4, and queue them.
- Unqueue tick and apply damage buffs and debuffs. Yes, level 73 monster difference is applied here, but remember that we started with base damage, not modified damage.
- Voilà, this is the tick damage, as far as I know.
As you can see, the buffs and debuffs are not snapshotted when the ticks are put in the DoT queue. If this is good or bad I'm not absolutely sure, but from my point of view it seems to be good as you always get the most recent buffs/debuffs, but that also means that some of these ticks will lose some buff/debuff from very short time lived buffs/debuffs.TIME ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL FLANK BASEDAMAGE EFFECTIVENESS 11:25:04 Hand of Blight Melee Physical Target Dummy 2586,5 True False 3091,3 83,7 % TIME ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL FLANK BASEDAMAGE EFFECTIVENESS 11:25:10 Creeping Death Physical Target Dummy 446,0 False False 463,7 96,2 % 11:25:09 Creeping Death Physical Target Dummy 446,0 False False 463,7 96,2 % 11:25:08 Creeping Death Physical Target Dummy 446,0 False False 463,7 96,2 % 11:25:06 Creeping Death Physical Target Dummy 407,4 False False 463,7 87,9 %PS: edited to do some formatting.
TYPE DAMAGE ENCDPS AVERAGE MEDIAN MINHIT MAXHIT HITS CRIT% FLANK% EFFECTIVENESS Hand of Blight Melee: Flank 79.897 3.631,68 3.072,96 2.960 1.607 6.468 26 54% 100% 88,9 % Hand of Blight Melee 3.718 169,00 1.859,00 2.567 1.151 2.567 2 50% 0% 80,6 %TYPE DAMAGE ENCDPS AVERAGE MEDIAN MINHIT MAXHIT HITS CRIT% FLANK% EFFECTIVENESS Creeping Death 50.079 2.276,32 447,13 444 181 970 112 0% 0% 88,3 %Anyway, why is people using Gates of Hell?
And gates of hell daily is quite decent in Tong for trash
ps: i like your explanation for creeping death. My maths are more basic and I would just have calculated if CD was 60% of the damage before going further.
The only thing is that you have to remember that they had to introduce a subtle delay when we apply Tab curses, because marking too fast was causing problems. So we can apply all three curses quite fast if we don't smash the tab key like crazy.