LOL man.. i have been pvp for as long as i can remember. i used to pvpwith my dc and they introduce us with SW i forgot in which module! from then i enjoyed pvp with this class. I was killed so easily by TR, GWF and GF back then, i was so angry that this class was super squicy but day by day i learnt and practicing with fellow pvper to get better. Right now my sw wont be killed as easy as i used to be.. u just need to build it right, ive seen GWF at 4.2k that are unkillable.. My sw has 200k hp only 5k defense and deflect, 26k power and 13arpen, 3k life steal!! and im using halfling for more deflect.
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
i have tested a 45% deflect build with 240k hp before bu5 i found it pointless cus you lose too much killing power for top level fights, plus, for those that cant kill you when you have 35% deflect, they still cant, but for those that can kill you, even with 45% deflect, they still could. Especially to Piercing Damage. The main difference is, you stop being a threat to them and that only puts you into more disadvantages eventually...
i have tested a 45% deflect build with 240k hp before bu5 i found it pointless cus you lose too much killing power for top level fights, plus, for those that cant kill you when you have 35% deflect, they still cant, but for those that can kill you, even with 45% deflect, they still could. Especially to Piercing Damage. The main difference is, you stop being a threat to them and that only puts you into more disadvantages eventually...
so what u are saying if im reading this correct is.that if u are strong enough already or to weak already,it wont come down to your deflect.u will still be stronger,or weaker. i dont have spend much into deflect but with all my enchantments(demonic) and just overall from equipment i still get down to 5.5k ill have to find another place to cut down and replace with power or arp
i have tested a 45% deflect build with 240k hp before bu5 i found it pointless cus you lose too much killing power for top level fights, plus, for those that cant kill you when you have 35% deflect, they still cant, but for those that can kill you, even with 45% deflect, they still could. Especially to Piercing Damage. The main difference is, you stop being a threat to them and that only puts you into more disadvantages eventually...
so what u are saying if im reading this correct is.that if u are strong enough already or to weak already,it wont come down to your deflect.u will still be stronger,or weaker. i dont have spend much into deflect but with all my enchantments(demonic) and just overall from equipment i still get down to 5.5k ill have to find another place to cut down and replace with power or arp
Even with all of the boons that deal damage when you deflect or heal on deflect? I wanted to test this out in both PvP and PvE. Are there cool downs on the deflect boons? I added them up and it's 3k, 5k, 6k plus a Shadow Demon 6k. That makes 20k Damage per deflect. (14k... I think shadow demon has a 20 second CD) There's also an 8k heal boon on deflect and the insignia bonus 4% heal on deflect. @200k+ HP that's a size able heal when stacked with that boon.
I only plan to test this since load outs come out next week for us, and since running full buff groups makes content so trivial why not test a deflect build in PVE? Thought it might be fun in solo dungeon runs too.
i have tested a 45% deflect build with 240k hp before bu5 i found it pointless cus you lose too much killing power for top level fights, plus, for those that cant kill you when you have 35% deflect, they still cant, but for those that can kill you, even with 45% deflect, they still could. Especially to Piercing Damage. The main difference is, you stop being a threat to them and that only puts you into more disadvantages eventually...
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
edited June 2017
dmg on deflect boon has a 20 or 30 seconds cooldown so it wont deal enough dmg to kill properly geared opponents. Regardless u r 35 or 45% deflect, the only things that kill u is either when you are proned or got hit by piercing (SE or PG) and high deflect doesnt help too much on those. However with the loss in offensiveness, that puts you into a more disadvsntaged place plus you lost the purpose of being a DPS in a team, since you cant heal and u cant kill...
well and sadly next mod ill just make pvp GWF extinct, a class that was already hardest to play in pvp got even worse to the point where u stand no chance vs single class.
dmg on deflect boon has a 20 or 30 seconds cooldown so it wont deal enough dmg to kill properly geared opponents. Regardless u r 35 or 45% deflect, the only things that kill u is either when you are proned or got hit by piercing (SE or PG) and high deflect doesnt help too much on those. However with the loss in offensiveness, that puts you into a more disadvsntaged place plus you lost the purpose of being a DPS in a team, since you cant heal and u cant kill...
Well, I tried it out, and I never expected this to reinvent the wheel. I remember Lancer had tried it back in the day and had mixed feelings about it. I was sitting at 37.5% deflect, 187k HP and 17% Lifesteal. This didn't gimp my DPS in any way because I never stacked anything defensively that gave me more power. All Dark 11s and 12s in my defense. One thing I did notice is that the length of time I was CC'd was reduced. I had no idea that deflection severity effected CC. It had me thinking that if I switched to an Elven battle I might not be CCd at all. I'm also a half long now which gives 10% cc resist and I took the boon for it too. This was all really halpful until I ran into pre mades. I can not burst down Anyone. Literally every BIS player I fought could not be killed, they would heal through it or help would arrive and I'd be fighting 2 or 3. This was never an issue before but now I can be killed in just a few seconds by an HR regardless of deflect or any other form of mitigation. I would like to think that the trade off would be that they were squishy but no, not the case. I feel that almost all classes were just as tanky as myself or even more so. Basically in pug vs pug I was going 13-0 and in pug vs pre I was getting hammered 0-7! I'm not new to PvP just on a break since about mod 9. I used to be a top tier PvP player and now I can barely function in PvP.
On a side note: I hit 70% deflect in PvE and I notice a huge difference. Super tanky, not much loss in dps unless I'm up against a melt group style GWF or HR. A lot of fun for solo play or running tankless.
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
well that is exactly what I meant by the loss in offensiveness, when you are in top tier premade fights, you need to be able to both survive and deal enough burst to kill your target. Due to the high piercing damge TR and HR deals, your best bet for survivability is having 230k+ HP, and thr high HP pool synergise well with your insignia heals and life steals, otherwise if you get killed by one single SE or HR's PG then its all pointless. And then you need high power 35~40k+ power and 10klish armpen to be able to deal enough damage to kill premade level toons, however if you invest too much intl deflect that would mean you will less likey have the chance to burst your target down, so eventually it will be a slow death for you.
well that is exactly what I meant by the loss in offensiveness, when you are in top tier premade fights, you need to be able to both survive and deal enough burst to kill your target. Due to the high piercing damge TR and HR deals, your best bet for survivability is having 230k+ HP, and thr high HP pool synergise well with your insignia heals and life steals, otherwise if you get killed by one single SE or HR's PG then its all pointless. And then you need high power 35~40k+ power and 10klish armpen to be able to deal enough damage to kill premade level toons, however if you invest too much intl deflect that would mean you will less likey have the chance to burst your target down, so eventually it will be a slow death for you.
so ,so far im liking the less deflect and more other stats.(ur advice) i see a rising popularity in a low 60%pen and big power stats lately.(then the other way around)everyone has it.it started with the top gwf on ps4 doing it. i tested it out but i dont see any diffrence.i think pen does more but hard to tell. ur toughts on this? xD
Post edited by guerillaface#5288 on
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
edited June 2017
60% armpen is enough against most opponents other than vs high defense opponents like GF, OP, GWF.
Power vs Armpen really doesnt look like it will make too much difference when you do 1 vs 1s, however eventually power wins out for a few reasons
1. When your opponent have low DR, you,wont need exceeding armpen to take him down, however higher power eventually grants you more damage.
2. Power amplifies with other buffs but armpen doesnt. Things like Calvery's Warning that grants 15% or more power will mean you benefit more from having higher power compare to investing into armpen.
3. When your target is proned on the ground they pretty much lost all the defense, which means armpen wouldnt matter that much but putting the same investment into power means you deal even more damage there.
So my suggestion is, keep armpen at a level that is enough to penerate through your opponents (around 9~10k is the sweet spot) and then invest all the rest into power to get the most of all the buffs you get.
1) No i-frames. Other classes have "dodge" which gives them immunity frames to dodge things like Shocking Execution. GWF doesnt have this (neither does SW) but instead gets "more DR" when sprinting. Well, Sprint isnt as "proactive" as you would hope in that it takes about .5 sec for the effect to even kick in, where as you can dodge with (what seems like) a much more forgiving window - allowing you to fully mitigate any damage during that i-frame. Without the ability to "dodge" big bursts of damage reliably... This is why GWFs are usually either overpowered OR underpowered depending on the "META" of the module...
- To fix this, I believe they should take an ability like "Punishing Charge" and give that to GWFs on Shift so it provides i-frames.
2) Reactive class mechanic. What I mean is Unstoppable. Unstoppable is really only obtained in PVP by taking damage. Yes, Destroyer capstone gives you the ability to gain determ by dealing damage but in order to deal damage you must first be in unstoppable to build stacks (ill get to this point in a bit). So initially the only way to get Unstoppable is to take a bunch of damage. We have no preemptive reliable mechanic to avoid damage. (this ties into problem #1 with the I-frames). Also, along these lines, I believe determination gain is based on % of HP lost so having higher and higher "damage resist" actually HURTS your determination gain believe it or not... So there is no "synergy" with using things like Sprint to mitigate damage to gain determination to use unstoppable.
- I honestly think that they should give the ability to gain determination off dealing damage to ALL GWFs. I might even remove the "damage dealing" aspect of this and merely make it so at wills provide a fixed % of determination (maybe like 5% per hit) and encounters provide a bigger burst of determination per use (like 20%). Just as an example - not fixed on those %s... But this provides a GWF a more reliably way to gain determination that isnt based on damage (ever try hitting a DC in AS and never gaining determination?) So its a fixed % earned based on using abilities.
- You could also include our new "shift" (punishing charge) in the camp of gaining like 20% determination per use.. So you can use Punishing Charge to both avoid damage AND build determination to "chain" it with unstoppable.
3) Stacks. GWF are too "stack" reliant and IMO its what has ruined this class. GWF has two major sources for its high damage. - Destroyer's Purpose (capstone) - Destroyer (tactic) paired with Focused Destroyer (feat).
Destroyer's Purpose - FIRST requires you to be in unstoppable AND THEN attack 20x. Now its not as bad as it seems and its easy to keep up (kinda) because stacks last 25 seconds, however its not something you can easily build without (again) taking damage to get unstoppable. (This provides 50% more damage)
Destroyer (tactic) + F.D.(feat). - This is also another HUGE part of GWFs damage and its the biggest issue right now. You get a 25% chance on hit to proc a stack of Destroyer that lasts ~4 seconds. So you have to CONSTANTLY be attacking to keep these up. At "max" stacks it will give you something ~ 42-46% more damage (I forget exact math).
So, without these, a GWF will deal like HALF his damage... With these, he will deal "good" damage. So the big issue here is that in PUG games, people facetank GWFs and GWFs have an easy time keeping all these stacks up and people go "WTF MAN, GWF OP!" But against GOOD players that use their i-frames and dodge GWFs and DONT let them build stacks, GWFs hit like a wet noodle and are worthless.
- To fix this, I would love to see a rework on the "stack" system. I would look at changing Destroyer's purpose stacks to something like 10 stacks at 5% each, keep the 25 seconds. - I would then re-work focused destroyer so that it has 100% chance to proc off ANY hit but does NOT increase damage per stack. Also these should last 5-6 seconds (match Weapon Master stacks duration). So this would be a net NERF to max damage. Rather than 46%ish more damage, it would only give ~36% more damage but have 100% chance to gain a stack and stacks would last more.
Those are the 3 MAIN issues with the class. NOW with the ARP changes coming to LIVE... We have a 4th issue though
4) GWF is very "Damage Resistance" reliant. ALL GWFs defensive tools are to provide "damage resistance" to the class. - countless scars - Sprint - Unstoppable ALL provide damage resist.
Well up until today, that has been fine as those are good tools in mitigating damage. However now with the removal of ARP Resistance, players can easily stack 100%+ Resistance Ignored which means ALLLLL those tools are worthless in PVP.
So now, thats issue #4 and the final "NAIL" in the coffin for GWF IMO......
1) No i-frames. Other classes have "dodge" which gives them immunity frames to dodge things like Shocking Execution. GWF doesnt have this (neither does SW) but instead gets "more DR" when sprinting. Well, Sprint isnt as "proactive" as you would hope in that it takes about .5 sec for the effect to even kick in, where as you can dodge with (what seems like) a much more forgiving window - allowing you to fully mitigate any damage during that i-frame. Without the ability to "dodge" big bursts of damage reliably... This is why GWFs are usually either overpowered OR underpowered depending on the "META" of the module...
- To fix this, I believe they should take an ability like "Punishing Charge" and give that to GWFs on Shift so it provides i-frames.
2) Reactive class mechanic. What I mean is Unstoppable. Unstoppable is really only obtained in PVP by taking damage. Yes, Destroyer capstone gives you the ability to gain determ by dealing damage but in order to deal damage you must first be in unstoppable to build stacks (ill get to this point in a bit). So initially the only way to get Unstoppable is to take a bunch of damage. We have no preemptive reliable mechanic to avoid damage. (this ties into problem #1 with the I-frames). Also, along these lines, I believe determination gain is based on % of HP lost so having higher and higher "damage resist" actually HURTS your determination gain believe it or not... So there is no "synergy" with using things like Sprint to mitigate damage to gain determination to use unstoppable.
- I honestly think that they should give the ability to gain determination off dealing damage to ALL GWFs. I might even remove the "damage dealing" aspect of this and merely make it so at wills provide a fixed % of determination (maybe like 5% per hit) and encounters provide a bigger burst of determination per use (like 20%). Just as an example - not fixed on those %s... But this provides a GWF a more reliably way to gain determination that isnt based on damage (ever try hitting a DC in AS and never gaining determination?) So its a fixed % earned based on using abilities.
- You could also include our new "shift" (punishing charge) in the camp of gaining like 20% determination per use.. So you can use Punishing Charge to both avoid damage AND build determination to "chain" it with unstoppable.
3) Stacks. GWF are too "stack" reliant and IMO its what has ruined this class. GWF has two major sources for its high damage. - Destroyer's Purpose (capstone) - Destroyer (tactic) paired with Focused Destroyer (feat).
Destroyer's Purpose - FIRST requires you to be in unstoppable AND THEN attack 20x. Now its not as bad as it seems and its easy to keep up (kinda) because stacks last 25 seconds, however its not something you can easily build without (again) taking damage to get unstoppable. (This provides 50% more damage)
Destroyer (tactic) + F.D.(feat). - This is also another HUGE part of GWFs damage and its the biggest issue right now. You get a 25% chance on hit to proc a stack of Destroyer that lasts ~4 seconds. So you have to CONSTANTLY be attacking to keep these up. At "max" stacks it will give you something ~ 42-46% more damage (I forget exact math).
So, without these, a GWF will deal like HALF his damage... With these, he will deal "good" damage. So the big issue here is that in PUG games, people facetank GWFs and GWFs have an easy time keeping all these stacks up and people go "WTF MAN, GWF OP!" But against GOOD players that use their i-frames and dodge GWFs and DONT let them build stacks, GWFs hit like a wet noodle and are worthless.
- To fix this, I would love to see a rework on the "stack" system. I would look at changing Destroyer's purpose stacks to something like 10 stacks at 5% each, keep the 25 seconds. - I would then re-work focused destroyer so that it has 100% chance to proc off ANY hit but does NOT increase damage per stack. Also these should last 5-6 seconds (match Weapon Master stacks duration). So this would be a net NERF to max damage. Rather than 46%ish more damage, it would only give ~36% more damage but have 100% chance to gain a stack and stacks would last more.
Those are the 3 MAIN issues with the class. NOW with the ARP changes coming to LIVE... We have a 4th issue though
4) GWF is very "Damage Resistance" reliant. ALL GWFs defensive tools are to provide "damage resistance" to the class. - countless scars - Sprint - Unstoppable ALL provide damage resist.
Well up until today, that has been fine as those are good tools in mitigating damage. However now with the removal of ARP Resistance, players can easily stack 100%+ Resistance Ignored which means ALLLLL those tools are worthless in PVP.
So now, thats issue #4 and the final "NAIL" in the coffin for GWF IMO......
i recognize everything u say,altho i would have been able to write this myself. are the devs aware of this? every1 like his comment pls just in case . ty
60% armpen is enough against most opponents other than vs high defense opponents like GF, OP, GWF.
Power vs Armpen really doesnt look like it will make too much difference when you do 1 vs 1s, however eventually power wins out for a few reasons
1. When your opponent have low DR, you,wont need exceeding armpen to take him down, however higher power eventually grants you more damage.
2. Power amplifies with other buffs but armpen doesnt. Things like Calvery's Warning that grants 15% or more power will mean you benefit more from having higher power compare to investing into armpen.
3. When your target is proned on the ground they pretty much lost all the defense, which means armpen wouldnt matter that much but putting the same investment into power means you deal even more damage there.
So my suggestion is, keep armpen at a level that is enough to penerate through your opponents (around 9~10k is the sweet spot) and then invest all the rest into power to get the most of all the buffs you get.
just having the arp guild boon on gives me an extra 2k power.(cuz of the feats,and im not even using the feat that gives me 20% power of my defense.cuz im using the hp boon wich is better obv but im still at 6k defense) so it looks like my max power guild boon only gives me 6k power instead of 8 wich it does. gwf doesnt realy use much prone,or control powers.for the power bonus to kick in. so for me better to have pen boon on?
once i reach those numbers tho i think it will be viable for me to switch.
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
power is still better cus your indomitable strength's following IBS will be able to deal the killing damage, same to other GF bull charging the target allowing you to really help delivering the killing blow.
power is still better cus your indomitable strength's following IBS will be able to deal the killing damage, same to other GF bull charging the target allowing you to really help delivering the killing blow.
i hear u,but with the pen,recovery,and defense feat i have like 3500 extra power.its almost half what i get with the power boon xD and bonus,i wont miss out on any pen. u still agree?
Post edited by guerillaface#5288 on
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
sorry i dun quite understand, your armpen boon is 6k armpen bonus 20 or 25% power thats abt 1.2~1.5k power increase but ur power boon is 6k power thats a incease of about 4.5k power at the cost of 6k armpen isnt it?
if u already have 6~10k armpen before the armpen boon then just pick power, but if ur armpen is lagging behind then armpen could benefit you more.
The aim is to have a total of 8~10k arpmen and the rest into power.
GWF may be terrible at 10k and below but it surely isnt even remotely bad at bis. I had a little 1x1 with Saber last night. His GWF is quite tanky, his crit chance and armor penetrataion were quite low and yet somehow he managed to put my also bis paladin on the defensive. I had to heal. This is not weak. A GWF who can push an equal gear paladin to self heal is defo not weak. I can only imagine how he melts less tanky characters.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
sorry i dun quite understand, your armpen boon is 6k armpen bonus 20 or 25% power thats abt 1.2~1.5k power increase but ur power boon is 6k power thats a incease of about 4.5k power at the cost of 6k armpen isnt it?
if u already have 6~10k armpen before the armpen boon then just pick power, but if ur armpen is lagging behind then armpen could benefit you more.
The aim is to have a total of 8~10k arpmen and the rest into power.
GWF may be terrible at 10k and below but it surely isnt even remotely bad at bis. I had a little 1x1 with Saber last night. His GWF is quite tanky, his crit chance and armor penetrataion were quite low and yet somehow he managed to put my also bis paladin on the defensive. I had to heal. This is not weak. A GWF who can push an equal gear paladin to self heal is defo not weak. I can only imagine how he melts less tanky characters.
there are more OP character in the game imo.even at lower gs
> @guerillaface#5288 said: > sorry i dun quite understand, your armpen boon is 6k armpen bonus 20 or 25% power thats abt 1.2~1.5k power increase but ur power boon is 6k power thats a incease of about 4.5k power at the cost of 6k armpen isnt it? > > > > if u already have 6~10k armpen before the armpen boon then just pick power, but if ur armpen is lagging behind then armpen could benefit you more. > > > > The aim is to have a total of 8~10k arpmen and the rest into power. > > alright,nah our boons are maxed,8k
Exterminatus is gh20? I didn't think you guys were that high.
I agree with Icyphish here you want to have a minimum ArmPen amount to be able to bypass people's tenacity/resists. Power is nice especially on IWP were you can rock OBC but it needs ArmPen back up in Dom to really do somthing.
> @guerillaface#5288 said: > GWF may be terrible at 10k and below but it surely isnt even remotely bad at bis. I had a little 1x1 with Saber last night. His GWF is quite tanky, his crit chance and armor penetrataion were quite low and yet somehow he managed to put my also bis paladin on the defensive. I had to heal. This is not weak. A GWF who can push an equal gear paladin to self heal is defo not weak. I can only imagine how he melts less tanky characters. > > there are more OP character in the game imo.even at lower gs
GS means more now then it did wth the changes, but it still isn't everything lol. Lots of things need to be taken into account, and you gotta remember every class has counters and you will always have a uphill battle against those counters.
I know this one well lol, look at all the people that changed there builds to combat me LMAO! It's all uphill battles
> sorry i dun quite understand, your armpen boon is 6k armpen bonus 20 or 25% power thats abt 1.2~1.5k power increase but ur power boon is 6k power thats a incease of about 4.5k power at the cost of 6k armpen isnt it?
>
>
>
> if u already have 6~10k armpen before the armpen boon then just pick power, but if ur armpen is lagging behind then armpen could benefit you more.
>
>
>
> The aim is to have a total of 8~10k arpmen and the rest into power.
>
> alright,nah our boons are maxed,8k
Exterminatus is gh20? I didn't think you guys were that high.
I agree with Icyphish here you want to have a minimum ArmPen amount to be able to bypass people's tenacity/resists. Power is nice especially on IWP were you can rock OBC but it needs ArmPen back up in Dom to really do somthing.
> GWF may be terrible at 10k and below but it surely isnt even remotely bad at bis. I had a little 1x1 with Saber last night. His GWF is quite tanky, his crit chance and armor penetrataion were quite low and yet somehow he managed to put my also bis paladin on the defensive. I had to heal. This is not weak. A GWF who can push an equal gear paladin to self heal is defo not weak. I can only imagine how he melts less tanky characters.
>
> there are more OP character in the game imo.even at lower gs
GS means more now then it did wth the changes, but it still isn't everything lol. Lots of things need to be taken into account, and you gotta remember every class has counters and you will always have a uphill battle against those counters.
I know this one well lol, look at all the people that changed there builds to combat me LMAO! It's all uphill battles
-Dandello
yeh with the power boon i only bypass 67%, so ques ill go with pen atm,wich also gives me power
The nastiest gwf's ive battled, as a 12k Pvp geared Gf, were above 11k if not 12k. Both classes are very gear dependent. Fighting high end gwf is hard. More than likely they can survive my bull rush and griffon wrath, go zerg mode, heal up and thrash me before my rotation cools down again. But low geared gwf stand no chance, as they succumb to the rotaton. The best i've seen pick their fights, sprint in, do their thing and dip. Low on HP? They sprint to the nearest potion loll. But pick your fights. My 2 cents as a gf who has been beaten up by some nasty gwf.
Update: Got my GWF back to a good place. Doing mostly pug que PvP right now or going in with a friend or 2. Must say the gap between fighting against pug groups and BiS pre made cancer comps is getting worse. It's the difference of going 25-0 and being campfired. Even most pre made groups I can rack up a bunch of kills while out rotating them to the nodes. My best advice for GWF in PvP is not to be discouraged by those random cancer comps, just keep queuing. Very few teams or players will get kills against a 2xTR, 2xHR, 2xCW, 2xDC, 2xGF style groups running lion mounts and CC builds. CB is awful, trapper builds are awful, repel builds are awful and when teams stack these builds prepare for a horrible experience. As long as you recognize these teams and wait them out at the campfire you'll be fine with playing a gwf. I don't bother feeding them kills.
I use my PvP build to pretend to be a tank. An insane amount of heals. I face tanked Orcus with the build. The damage is definitely lower but still decent. I mean you are sacrificing some things for all the survivability. And it's still a destroyer path.
1) No i-frames. Other classes have "dodge" which gives them immunity frames to dodge things like Shocking Execution. GWF doesnt have this (neither does SW) but instead gets "more DR" when sprinting. Well, Sprint isnt as "proactive" as you would hope in that it takes about .5 sec for the effect to even kick in, where as you can dodge with (what seems like) a much more forgiving window - allowing you to fully mitigate any damage during that i-frame. Without the ability to "dodge" big bursts of damage reliably... This is why GWFs are usually either overpowered OR underpowered depending on the "META" of the module...
- To fix this, I believe they should take an ability like "Punishing Charge" and give that to GWFs on Shift so it provides i-frames.
2) Reactive class mechanic. What I mean is Unstoppable. Unstoppable is really only obtained in PVP by taking damage. Yes, Destroyer capstone gives you the ability to gain determ by dealing damage but in order to deal damage you must first be in unstoppable to build stacks (ill get to this point in a bit). So initially the only way to get Unstoppable is to take a bunch of damage. We have no preemptive reliable mechanic to avoid damage. (this ties into problem #1 with the I-frames). Also, along these lines, I believe determination gain is based on % of HP lost so having higher and higher "damage resist" actually HURTS your determination gain believe it or not... So there is no "synergy" with using things like Sprint to mitigate damage to gain determination to use unstoppable.
- I honestly think that they should give the ability to gain determination off dealing damage to ALL GWFs. I might even remove the "damage dealing" aspect of this and merely make it so at wills provide a fixed % of determination (maybe like 5% per hit) and encounters provide a bigger burst of determination per use (like 20%). Just as an example - not fixed on those %s... But this provides a GWF a more reliably way to gain determination that isnt based on damage (ever try hitting a DC in AS and never gaining determination?) So its a fixed % earned based on using abilities.
- You could also include our new "shift" (punishing charge) in the camp of gaining like 20% determination per use.. So you can use Punishing Charge to both avoid damage AND build determination to "chain" it with unstoppable.
3) Stacks. GWF are too "stack" reliant and IMO its what has ruined this class. GWF has two major sources for its high damage. - Destroyer's Purpose (capstone) - Destroyer (tactic) paired with Focused Destroyer (feat).
Destroyer's Purpose - FIRST requires you to be in unstoppable AND THEN attack 20x. Now its not as bad as it seems and its easy to keep up (kinda) because stacks last 25 seconds, however its not something you can easily build without (again) taking damage to get unstoppable. (This provides 50% more damage)
Destroyer (tactic) + F.D.(feat). - This is also another HUGE part of GWFs damage and its the biggest issue right now. You get a 25% chance on hit to proc a stack of Destroyer that lasts ~4 seconds. So you have to CONSTANTLY be attacking to keep these up. At "max" stacks it will give you something ~ 42-46% more damage (I forget exact math).
So, without these, a GWF will deal like HALF his damage... With these, he will deal "good" damage. So the big issue here is that in PUG games, people facetank GWFs and GWFs have an easy time keeping all these stacks up and people go "WTF MAN, GWF OP!" But against GOOD players that use their i-frames and dodge GWFs and DONT let them build stacks, GWFs hit like a wet noodle and are worthless.
- To fix this, I would love to see a rework on the "stack" system. I would look at changing Destroyer's purpose stacks to something like 10 stacks at 5% each, keep the 25 seconds. - I would then re-work focused destroyer so that it has 100% chance to proc off ANY hit but does NOT increase damage per stack. Also these should last 5-6 seconds (match Weapon Master stacks duration). So this would be a net NERF to max damage. Rather than 46%ish more damage, it would only give ~36% more damage but have 100% chance to gain a stack and stacks would last more.
Those are the 3 MAIN issues with the class. NOW with the ARP changes coming to LIVE... We have a 4th issue though
4) GWF is very "Damage Resistance" reliant. ALL GWFs defensive tools are to provide "damage resistance" to the class. - countless scars - Sprint - Unstoppable ALL provide damage resist.
Well up until today, that has been fine as those are good tools in mitigating damage. However now with the removal of ARP Resistance, players can easily stack 100%+ Resistance Ignored which means ALLLLL those tools are worthless in PVP.
So now, thats issue #4 and the final "NAIL" in the coffin for GWF IMO......
I Dont know why you suggest the tooltip that already exists. MOD 6 was the change? if someone can correct me when was. When you deal damage while Unstoppable, you gain a stack of Destroyer's Purpose (max 10). Each stack of Destroyer's Purpose increases your damage by 5%. Destroyer's Purpose lasts 25 seconds.
I'd make arp 400stat=1% dri in pvp. Would make defense useful again. Gwf sprint and sw Shadow slip should be dr on a different layer.
And healing depression should be increased in pvp. Players in pvp should die, faster or slower, depending on how tanky they are. Never being immortal. Never out-healing damage. Healers should make the team survive more. Not make them become immortal.
Update: Got my GWF back to a good place. Doing mostly pug que PvP right now or going in with a friend or 2. Must say the gap between fighting against pug groups and BiS pre made cancer comps is getting worse. It's the difference of going 25-0 and being campfired. Even most pre made groups I can rack up a bunch of kills while out rotating them to the nodes. My best advice for GWF in PvP is not to be discouraged by those random cancer comps, just keep queuing. Very few teams or players will get kills against a 2xTR, 2xHR, 2xCW, 2xDC, 2xGF style groups running lion mounts and CC builds. CB is awful, trapper builds are awful, repel builds are awful and when teams stack these builds prepare for a horrible experience. As long as you recognize these teams and wait them out at the campfire you'll be fine with playing a gwf. I don't bother feeding them kills.
How is mod 12 looking for PvP on PC?
seems people are getting the idea that i am weak or have low gs or have a bad build because i made this post. but gwf are terrible lets face it.needs a huge buff
Comments
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
i dont have spend much into deflect but with all my enchantments(demonic) and just overall from equipment i still get down to 5.5k
ill have to find another place to cut down and replace with power or arp
I only plan to test this since load outs come out next week for us, and since running full buff groups makes content so trivial why not test a deflect build in PVE? Thought it might be fun in solo dungeon runs too.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Well, I tried it out, and I never expected this to reinvent the wheel. I remember Lancer had tried it back in the day and had mixed feelings about it. I was sitting at 37.5% deflect, 187k HP and 17% Lifesteal. This didn't gimp my DPS in any way because I never stacked anything defensively that gave me more power. All Dark 11s and 12s in my defense. One thing I did notice is that the length of time I was CC'd was reduced. I had no idea that deflection severity effected CC. It had me thinking that if I switched to an Elven battle I might not be CCd at all. I'm also a half long now which gives 10% cc resist and I took the boon for it too. This was all really halpful until I ran into pre mades. I can not burst down Anyone. Literally every BIS player I fought could not be killed, they would heal through it or help would arrive and I'd be fighting 2 or 3. This was never an issue before but now I can be killed in just a few seconds by an HR regardless of deflect or any other form of mitigation. I would like to think that the trade off would be that they were squishy but no, not the case. I feel that almost all classes were just as tanky as myself or even more so. Basically in pug vs pug I was going 13-0 and in pug vs pre I was getting hammered 0-7! I'm not new to PvP just on a break since about mod 9. I used to be a top tier PvP player and now I can barely function in PvP.
On a side note: I hit 70% deflect in PvE and I notice a huge difference. Super tanky, not much loss in dps unless I'm up against a melt group style GWF or HR. A lot of fun for solo play or running tankless.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
i see a rising popularity in a low 60%pen and big power stats lately.(then the other way around)everyone has it.it started with the top gwf on ps4 doing it.
i tested it out but i dont see any diffrence.i think pen does more but hard to tell.
ur toughts on this? xD
Power vs Armpen really doesnt look like it will make too much difference when you do 1 vs 1s, however eventually power wins out for a few reasons
1. When your opponent have low DR, you,wont need exceeding armpen to take him down, however higher power eventually grants you more damage.
2. Power amplifies with other buffs but armpen doesnt. Things like Calvery's Warning that grants 15% or more power will mean you benefit more from having higher power compare to investing into armpen.
3. When your target is proned on the ground they pretty much lost all the defense, which means armpen wouldnt matter that much but putting the same investment into power means you deal even more damage there.
So my suggestion is, keep armpen at a level that is enough to penerate through your opponents (around 9~10k is the sweet spot) and then invest all the rest into power to get the most of all the buffs you get.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
I will answer this for you.
1) No i-frames. Other classes have "dodge" which gives them immunity frames to dodge things like Shocking Execution. GWF doesnt have this (neither does SW) but instead gets "more DR" when sprinting. Well, Sprint isnt as "proactive" as you would hope in that it takes about .5 sec for the effect to even kick in, where as you can dodge with (what seems like) a much more forgiving window - allowing you to fully mitigate any damage during that i-frame. Without the ability to "dodge" big bursts of damage reliably... This is why GWFs are usually either overpowered OR underpowered depending on the "META" of the module...
- To fix this, I believe they should take an ability like "Punishing Charge" and give that to GWFs on Shift so it provides i-frames.
2) Reactive class mechanic. What I mean is Unstoppable. Unstoppable is really only obtained in PVP by taking damage. Yes, Destroyer capstone gives you the ability to gain determ by dealing damage but in order to deal damage you must first be in unstoppable to build stacks (ill get to this point in a bit). So initially the only way to get Unstoppable is to take a bunch of damage. We have no preemptive reliable mechanic to avoid damage. (this ties into problem #1 with the I-frames). Also, along these lines, I believe determination gain is based on % of HP lost so having higher and higher "damage resist" actually HURTS your determination gain believe it or not... So there is no "synergy" with using things like Sprint to mitigate damage to gain determination to use unstoppable.
- I honestly think that they should give the ability to gain determination off dealing damage to ALL GWFs. I might even remove the "damage dealing" aspect of this and merely make it so at wills provide a fixed % of determination (maybe like 5% per hit) and encounters provide a bigger burst of determination per use (like 20%). Just as an example - not fixed on those %s... But this provides a GWF a more reliably way to gain determination that isnt based on damage (ever try hitting a DC in AS and never gaining determination?) So its a fixed % earned based on using abilities.
- You could also include our new "shift" (punishing charge) in the camp of gaining like 20% determination per use.. So you can use Punishing Charge to both avoid damage AND build determination to "chain" it with unstoppable.
3) Stacks. GWF are too "stack" reliant and IMO its what has ruined this class. GWF has two major sources for its high damage.
- Destroyer's Purpose (capstone)
- Destroyer (tactic) paired with Focused Destroyer (feat).
Destroyer's Purpose - FIRST requires you to be in unstoppable AND THEN attack 20x. Now its not as bad as it seems and its easy to keep up (kinda) because stacks last 25 seconds, however its not something you can easily build without (again) taking damage to get unstoppable. (This provides 50% more damage)
Destroyer (tactic) + F.D.(feat). - This is also another HUGE part of GWFs damage and its the biggest issue right now. You get a 25% chance on hit to proc a stack of Destroyer that lasts ~4 seconds. So you have to CONSTANTLY be attacking to keep these up. At "max" stacks it will give you something ~ 42-46% more damage (I forget exact math).
So, without these, a GWF will deal like HALF his damage... With these, he will deal "good" damage. So the big issue here is that in PUG games, people facetank GWFs and GWFs have an easy time keeping all these stacks up and people go "WTF MAN, GWF OP!" But against GOOD players that use their i-frames and dodge GWFs and DONT let them build stacks, GWFs hit like a wet noodle and are worthless.
- To fix this, I would love to see a rework on the "stack" system. I would look at changing Destroyer's purpose stacks to something like 10 stacks at 5% each, keep the 25 seconds.
- I would then re-work focused destroyer so that it has 100% chance to proc off ANY hit but does NOT increase damage per stack. Also these should last 5-6 seconds (match Weapon Master stacks duration). So this would be a net NERF to max damage. Rather than 46%ish more damage, it would only give ~36% more damage but have 100% chance to gain a stack and stacks would last more.
Those are the 3 MAIN issues with the class. NOW with the ARP changes coming to LIVE... We have a 4th issue though
4) GWF is very "Damage Resistance" reliant. ALL GWFs defensive tools are to provide "damage resistance" to the class.
- countless scars
- Sprint
- Unstoppable
ALL provide damage resist.
Well up until today, that has been fine as those are good tools in mitigating damage. However now with the removal of ARP Resistance, players can easily stack 100%+ Resistance Ignored which means ALLLLL those tools are worthless in PVP.
So now, thats issue #4 and the final "NAIL" in the coffin for GWF IMO......
are the devs aware of this?
every1 like his comment pls just in case .
btw somebodytold me gwf is getting nerfed soon?
so it looks like my max power guild boon only gives me 6k power instead of 8 wich it does.
gwf doesnt realy use much prone,or control powers.for the power bonus to kick in.
so for me better to have pen boon on?
once i reach those numbers tho i think it will be viable for me to switch.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
and bonus,i wont miss out on any pen.
u still agree?
if u already have 6~10k armpen before the armpen boon then just pick power, but if ur armpen is lagging behind then armpen could benefit you more.
The aim is to have a total of 8~10k arpmen and the rest into power.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
> sorry i dun quite understand, your armpen boon is 6k armpen bonus 20 or 25% power thats abt 1.2~1.5k power increase but ur power boon is 6k power thats a incease of about 4.5k power at the cost of 6k armpen isnt it?
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> if u already have 6~10k armpen before the armpen boon then just pick power, but if ur armpen is lagging behind then armpen could benefit you more.
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> The aim is to have a total of 8~10k arpmen and the rest into power.
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> alright,nah our boons are maxed,8k
Exterminatus is gh20? I didn't think you guys were that high.
I agree with Icyphish here you want to have a minimum ArmPen amount to be able to bypass people's tenacity/resists. Power is nice especially on IWP were you can rock OBC but it needs ArmPen back up in Dom to really do somthing.
> @guerillaface#5288 said:
> GWF may be terrible at 10k and below but it surely isnt even remotely bad at bis. I had a little 1x1 with Saber last night. His GWF is quite tanky, his crit chance and armor penetrataion were quite low and yet somehow he managed to put my also bis paladin on the defensive. I had to heal. This is not weak. A GWF who can push an equal gear paladin to self heal is defo not weak. I can only imagine how he melts less tanky characters.
>
> there are more OP character in the game imo.even at lower gs
GS means more now then it did wth the changes, but it still isn't everything lol. Lots of things need to be taken into account, and you gotta remember every class has counters and you will always have a uphill battle against those counters.
I know this one well lol, look at all the people that changed there builds to combat me LMAO! It's all uphill battles
-Dandello
so ques ill go with pen atm,wich also gives me power
but after mod 12 ,80% is the cap i believe
How is mod 12 looking for PvP on PC?
When you deal damage while Unstoppable, you gain a stack of Destroyer's Purpose (max 10). Each stack of Destroyer's Purpose increases your damage by 5%. Destroyer's Purpose lasts 25 seconds.
And healing depression should be increased in pvp. Players in pvp should die, faster or slower, depending on how tanky they are. Never being immortal. Never out-healing damage. Healers should make the team survive more. Not make them become immortal.
but gwf are terrible lets face it.needs a huge buff