Transcent Frost or Transcent Plague Fire

onlymat · August 2016

Titel says it all.
I'm a Cleric for buff Debuff an I read somwhere that Transcent Frost is much better than Plague Fire? Is it True for Debuff/Buff?

treesclimber · August 2016

Both sux dread is the one you want.

Unknown · August 2016

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zekethesinner · August 2016

^He is not the kind of person to look up to.

Also Trans bronzewood got significant buff and its quite viable now, still 50% uptime (10s debuff, 20s CD) hurts, but at endgame with fast parties thats usually what is needed to kill a boss, so...

Dread is just vorp+terror on steroids, if u want to go dps DC, then sure, but if u want to be (de)buffer then its a no-no. Both terror and PF r quite underpreforming.

For FBI u may consider Fey, since 18% dmg debuff may just do the work on those heavy hitting stuff.

(Sin)cerely
Kain

treesclimber · August 2016

True thing in FBI mobs hit like trains but I wouldn't go with a bronzehood ever, as far as I remember the damage debuff on target is just self and the damage increase is only1% higher than a terror and this considering a super fast party and the damage increase of 16(8 in average) can easily be passed by any dread, the problem with fey is that it will block other party member from geting the buff if he owns a same grade fey, plague stacks fall very fast and it requires good cordenation to keep an average of 4% in all targets. So my advise is terror if the intention is buffing only, t.dread is still the best imo, holy avenger I haven't tried in FBI because of the EF damage etc.

treesclimber · August 2016

But honestly if you are considering in becoming a true buffer you should look to:
Lizardfolk bowman(5% damage boost, fast proc) or
Rustmonster( needs lvl 30: 5% damage buff, ocasional 8% damage debuff)
Or (the best at lowish price) the sellsword at lvl 30(10% boost permanent or almost)

And also a jaged dancing blade if possible epic.

A honorable mention is ambush drake, it increases damage on target 20% but last time I checked it costed 28kk)

Another must is a devoted sigil, upgrade it the most you can now on double rp event starting on september first, it by far the best situational artifact.

sorce · August 2016

The debuff from Plague, Terror, and Dread all got reworked - Plague and Terror are pretty useless now. Go Frost - it needs to be Pure at least.

treesclimber · August 2016

confusedpoof said:
The debuff from Plague, Terror, and Dread all got reworked - Plague and Terror are pretty useless now. Go Frost - it needs to be Pure at least.

You have notion that the -4 damage resistanc en mobs is actualy 4% more damage, i cant see lostmauth /valindra/fullminorax/orcus getting disabled, while a terror can add flat 4% more damage frost has nothing, but pls explain.

sorce · August 2016

@thefabricant - Calling in Sharp who can explain how these work a thousand times better than I could ever do justice.

thefabricant · August 2016

Terror and Plaguefire are double mitigated by monster damage reduction and the second layer of mitigation cannot be penetrated by RI. What this means is that the debuff itself is less effective against monsters that have DR. So against bosses, the debuff on terror or plaguefire is 60% less effective. The vorpal, dread, frost and bronzewood debuffs are not double mitigated. The trans vorpal debuff is applied on all hits not just criticals, unlike what the tooltip states. For reference, this means even a vorpal provides a better debuff than terror.

jazzfong · August 2016

It doesnt matter much whether which one is the best debuffing enchant for you. I can share with you my golden rule of debuffing:
"The best debuff is the one others dont have".

CW/HR using dread? Swap Terror.
GF/OP using Terror? Swap PF.
Someone with PF already? Swap Frost.
Still someone got frost? Time for Bronzewood.
So there is someone with BW....
Then dont bother just use what you want or what u can afford. XD

treesclimber · August 2016

thefabricant said:
Terror and Plaguefire are double mitigated by monster damage reduction and the second layer of mitigation cannot be penetrated by RI. What this means is that the debuff itself is less effective against monsters that have DR. So against bosses, the debuff on terror or plaguefire is 60% less effective. The vorpal, dread, frost and bronzewood debuffs are not double mitigated. The trans vorpal debuff is applied on all hits not just criticals, unlike what the tooltip states. For reference, this means even a vorpal provides a better debuff than terror.

But by this you mean Emberclaw life shield, orcus portals fase, FBI before drummer gets killed or it's a value that is always present?

loboguild · August 2016

thefabricant wrote: »

Terror and Plaguefire are double mitigated by monster damage reduction and the second layer of mitigation cannot be penetrated by RI. What this means is that the debuff itself is less effective against monsters that have DR. So against bosses, the debuff on terror or plaguefire is 60% less effective. The vorpal, dread, frost and bronzewood debuffs are not double mitigated. The trans vorpal debuff is applied on all hits not just criticals, unlike what the tooltip states. For reference, this means even a vorpal provides a better debuff than terror.

Even with that in mind, Frost/Bronzewood shouldn't be able to outperform Plague Fire because of ICD. Dread theoretically is hands down the best enchant currently, but since a lot of DPS already use it imho debuffers should just stay GPF and own Frost as a backup.

sorce · August 2016

There is no cool down on Frost. And yes, the double mitigation is always present with PF and Terror.

thefabricant · August 2016

treesclimber said:

thefabricant said:
Terror and Plaguefire are double mitigated by monster damage reduction and the second layer of mitigation cannot be penetrated by RI. What this means is that the debuff itself is less effective against monsters that have DR. So against bosses, the debuff on terror or plaguefire is 60% less effective. The vorpal, dread, frost and bronzewood debuffs are not double mitigated. The trans vorpal debuff is applied on all hits not just criticals, unlike what the tooltip states. For reference, this means even a vorpal provides a better debuff than terror.
But by this you mean Emberclaw life shield, orcus portals fase, FBI before drummer gets killed or it's a value that is always present?

I am not talking about unmitigatable DR, I am referring to normal DR.

loboguild · August 2016

confusedpoof wrote: »

There is no cool down on Frost. And yes, the double mitigation is always present with PF and Terror.

Frost has a cooldown. It's not 4/20 as stated in the tooltip, but the 7% debuff is definitely not up 100%. I normally get an average of 4-5%. So you basically need mob DR of >50% for Frost to surpass Plague Fire.

thefabricant · August 2016

loboguild said:

Frost has a cooldown. It's not 4/20 as stated in the tooltip, but the 7% debuff is definitely not up 100%. I normally get an average of 4-5%. So you basically need mob DR of >50% for Frost to surpass Plague Fire.

Which is what bosses have, which is where it matters.

treesclimber · August 2016

thefabricant said:

treesclimber said:

thefabricant said:
Terror and Plaguefire are double mitigated by monster damage reduction and the second layer of mitigation cannot be penetrated by RI. What this means is that the debuff itself is less effective against monsters that have DR. So against bosses, the debuff on terror or plaguefire is 60% less effective. The vorpal, dread, frost and bronzewood debuffs are not double mitigated. The trans vorpal debuff is applied on all hits not just criticals, unlike what the tooltip states. For reference, this means even a vorpal provides a better debuff than terror.
But by this you mean Emberclaw life shield, orcus portals fase, FBI before drummer gets killed or it's a value that is always present?
I am not talking about unmitigatable DR, I am referring to normal DR.

Oh ok, got confused when you said "second layer of mitigation cannot be penetrated by RI. " it's mitigatable but not by RI only by damage increase.

@onlymat not sure if you read my 3rd post, ignore the jaged dancing blade debuff, it's not working, it gets appplied and apply chance respects epic update but both grant no aditional damage to target.

ajlir · August 2016

I'm currently having Greater Plague Fire on my GWF. If what sharp says it's true, I should swap to something else to improve effectiveness. But I don't want crit severity enchants. I want something that gives a bit more survivability or debuff on PvE playground and PuG runs. Any recommendations?

Unknown · August 2016

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treesclimber · August 2016

I wrote somewhere on the forum that at very top of crit severity T.Fey will deal 9% less damage than P.vorpal. The problem is really if another person in your party runs it too. Honestly there is no good option for what you want. Vorpal is king.

I wanted something to protect the team and myself so i got this:https://two30.github.io/neverwinter-insignia/?19 with a high AP gain build it works very nice, and you could use a lightning to increase the recharge speed, casting more ibs, geting more AP and the surounding damage of a T.lightning in a gwf is around 6% witch is not too bad it's not the best idea imo but it could work.

carl103 · August 2016

Indeed the recharge speed boost on ven a lesser lightning is quite nice on GWF, ran to equivalent to about 7% more recovery overall. Not all of that will be from lightning ofc with my build, (messing about with a feated savage advance build), but still pretty solid. Not that i'd run lightning on mine if i had another option, (not got the funds for multiple weapon enchants atm so my paladins lightning gets passed around), but still not terrible.

thegreatmikey · August 2016

I will point out that with the plaguefire you get to see your animated enemies catch fire and burn, which is awesome. Go with plaguefire for this reason.

ajlir · August 2016

treesclimber said:
I wrote somewhere on the forum that at very top of crit severity T.Fey will deal 9% less damage than P.vorpal. The problem is really if another person in your party runs it too. Honestly there is no good option for what you want. Vorpal is king.

I wanted something to protect the team and myself so i got this:https://two30.github.io/neverwinter-insignia/?19 with a high AP gain build it works very nice, and you could use a lightning to increase the recharge speed, casting more ibs, geting more AP and the surounding damage of a T.lightning in a gwf is around 6% witch is not too bad it's not the best idea imo but it could work.

I was thinking of Lifedrinker but whatever. Shepard's Devotion it is. I'm not too focused on DPS at the moment. And I assume that most GWF who prioritize crit and power will call me garbage for this. And also...found one of the reasons why I survive eToS' last boss with 2 OPs around.

carl103 said:
Indeed the recharge speed boost on ven a lesser lightning is quite nice on GWF, ran to equivalent to about 7% more recovery overall. Not all of that will be from lightning ofc with my build, (messing about with a feated savage advance build), but still pretty solid. Not that i'd run lightning on mine if i had another option, (not got the funds for multiple weapon enchants atm so my paladins lightning gets passed around), but still not terrible.

I have enough recovery to cover for 100% uptime Hidden Dagger. Going for more wouldn't be good for me in the long run. I put those in defense and HP instead. Not too sure about Lightning. If it gives a bit more damage than Plague, I consider the swap or just go Holy Avenger.

thegreatmikey said:
I will point out that with the plaguefire you get to see your animated enemies catch fire and burn, which is awesome. Go with plaguefire for this reason.

Originally, it is for stacking my rising rings quickly with just Hidden Daggers on mobs. It works perfectly. The debuff is a plus point. I don't see much on enemies catching fire since I looked towards buff/debuff and my encounter cooldowns more than what's happening to my screen (still need to work on my team's HP though). But hey, if you like it, you use it.

krymkac · August 2016

thefabricant said:
Terror and Plaguefire are double mitigated by monster damage reduction and the second layer of mitigation cannot be penetrated by RI. What this means is that the debuff itself is less effective against monsters that have DR. So against bosses, the debuff on terror or plaguefire is 60% less effective. The vorpal, dread, frost and bronzewood debuffs are not double mitigated. The trans vorpal debuff is applied on all hits not just criticals, unlike what the tooltip states. For reference, this means even a vorpal provides a better debuff than terror.

Omg english pls. xD
Jokes aside anywhere i can read about that? Double mitigated? What? 0_o

thefabricant · August 2016

krymkac said:

thefabricant said:
Terror and Plaguefire are double mitigated by monster damage reduction and the second layer of mitigation cannot be penetrated by RI. What this means is that the debuff itself is less effective against monsters that have DR. So against bosses, the debuff on terror or plaguefire is 60% less effective. The vorpal, dread, frost and bronzewood debuffs are not double mitigated. The trans vorpal debuff is applied on all hits not just criticals, unlike what the tooltip states. For reference, this means even a vorpal provides a better debuff than terror.
Omg english pls. xD
Jokes aside anywhere i can read about that? Double mitigated? What? 0_o

Ill explain it in maths terms then.

Perfect Plaguefire: Base defense debuff 3% per stack, 9% with 3 stacks.
Perfect Terror: Base debuff 4%.
Transcendent Plaguefire: Base defense debuff 3% per stack, 9% with 3 stacks. Hidden 2% DR debuff which is not listed on tooltip. Multiplies with defense debuff. Total magnitude 11.18%.

Boss DR: 60%
Your RI: 60%

Terror and plaguefire are mitigated twice by monster DR, the 1 layer is penetrated by RI, the second layer is not.

Result:

Perfect Plaguefire: 0.09*(1-0.6+0.6)*(1-0.6) = 0.036 = 3.6% debuff.
Perfect Terror: 0.04*(1-0.6+0.6)*(1-0.6) = 0.016 = 1.6% debuff
Transcendent Plaguefire: (1+0.09*(1-0.6+0.6)*(1-0.6))*(1.02)-1 = 0.05672 = 5.672% debuff.

carl103 · August 2016

I have enough recovery to cover for 100% uptime Hidden Dagger. Going for more wouldn't be good for me in the long run. I put those in defense and HP instead. Not too sure about Lightning. If it gives a bit more damage than Plague, I consider the swap or just go Holy Avenger.

I wasn't suggesting you should use lightning on GWF, bad idea, the damage boost is awful. I as just providing some number for reference purposes

.

ajlir · August 2016

Oh. Okay. Lightning's a bust.

Still considering Holy Avenger or Feytouched.

krymkac · August 2016

thefabricant said:

Ill explain it in maths terms then.

Perfect Plaguefire: Base defense debuff 3% per stack, 9% with 3 stacks.
Perfect Terror: Base debuff 4%.
Transcendent Plaguefire: Base defense debuff 3% per stack, 9% with 3 stacks. Hidden 2% DR debuff which is not listed on tooltip. Multiplies with defense debuff. Total magnitude 11.18%.

Boss DR: 60%
Your RI: 60%

Terror and plaguefire are mitigated twice by monster DR, the 1 layer is penetrated by RI, the second layer is not.

Result:

Perfect Plaguefire: 0.09*(1-0.6+0.6)*(1-0.6) = 0.036 = 3.6% debuff.
Perfect Terror: 0.04*(1-0.6+0.6)*(1-0.6) = 0.016 = 1.6% debuff
Transcendent Plaguefire: (1+0.09*(1-0.6+0.6)*(1-0.6))*(1.02)-1 = 0.05672 = 5.672% debuff.

I do get the math & idea. What i don't get is... what 2nd layer of dr? Your formulas show additional 60% on bosses that cant be penetrated by RI. Since when? 0_o Or this layer only exists for plague/terror enchantments but not for other debuffs/dmg? Recent rework/ninja nerf?

thefabricant · August 2016

krymkac said:

thefabricant said:

Ill explain it in maths terms then.

Perfect Plaguefire: Base defense debuff 3% per stack, 9% with 3 stacks.
Perfect Terror: Base debuff 4%.
Transcendent Plaguefire: Base defense debuff 3% per stack, 9% with 3 stacks. Hidden 2% DR debuff which is not listed on tooltip. Multiplies with defense debuff. Total magnitude 11.18%.

Boss DR: 60%
Your RI: 60%

Terror and plaguefire are mitigated twice by monster DR, the 1 layer is penetrated by RI, the second layer is not.

Result:

Perfect Plaguefire: 0.09*(1-0.6+0.6)*(1-0.6) = 0.036 = 3.6% debuff.
Perfect Terror: 0.04*(1-0.6+0.6)*(1-0.6) = 0.016 = 1.6% debuff
Transcendent Plaguefire: (1+0.09*(1-0.6+0.6)*(1-0.6))*(1.02)-1 = 0.05672 = 5.672% debuff.
I do get the math & idea. What i don't get is... what 2nd layer of dr? Your formulas show additional 60% on bosses that cant be penetrated by RI. Since when? 0_o Or this layer only exists for plague/terror enchantments but not for other debuffs/dmg? Recent rework/ninja nerf?

It only exists for some debuffs (not all debuffs). Well, sometimes monsters have additional layers of DR (like orcus during rifts phase) but that is a specific mechanic. This second layer of mitigation effects a specific list of debuffs and it effects them all the time.

krymkac · August 2016

Ok. Thanks. AT least now i know that upgrading pure plague isnt 100% pointless.
As for other stuff... pwi has to make ppl buy wards/rp (hello dread) somehow i guess xD

Transcent Frost or Transcent Plague Fire

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