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Nerfed regen gave back 10 times as much healing with weapon set/boons/insignias/artifacts/mounts
ltgamesttv
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
Several mods back now the devs stated that regen gave too much in terms of reliable self healing. The decision was to nerf regen in combat so that it primarily increased incoming healing as a bonus and only kicked in after combat to give back some of the health lost before returning to combat. Then came the onslaught of every type of internal healing that the devs could come up with. Some examples of this are:
1) Lifesteal with endless consumption. Many classes began running with 20% + Lifesteal and occasionally got 3x as much healing from it.
2) Waterwheel artifact. Many classes, if not all at some point, ran with this artifact to get the heals (100% of your health or 50% with healing depression).
3) Drowned weapons. Procs every 60 seconds and gives 30 seconds worth of heals (50% of your health or 25% in healing depression).
4) Boons. Elven tranquility 20000 HP, Enraged regrowth 20000 HP, Engine Inspiration 20000 HP, Wall of wind 24000 HP or Gale of retribution 24000 HP. All of these should be halved in healing depression, I haven't tested to make sure they are. This also doesn't include the bonuses to lifesteal severity and incoming healing bonuses which contribute to overall self healing.
5) Mount Insignia Bonuses. Vampires craving lifesteal gives you 3% of max HP, Survivors blessing deflecting gives you 3% of your Max HP, Oppressor's reprieve when you are CC'd you get 4% of your Max HP, Barbarian's revelry when you crit you get 1.5% of your Max HP, Champions return when you hit 50% HP you get 20% HP. There are lesser versions of these as well that can either be used separately or stacked (with huge diminishing returns). There are more healing insignias showing on the PTR for next mod as well.
6) Mounts. Skeleton steed using a daily power gives you 20% of your HP, Lion mount healed for 10% HP when attacked over 10 seconds after the shield from the combat power expires.
What we are finding end game is that all these elements combined with healing pots and or any healing classes makes end game PVP a joke. There are exactly two classes on live server right now that can kill at end game. The TR and the GF, only because they have huge burst damage. The TR still needs the ITF buff from the GF to be an effective clearer as everyone also has high HP.
Many an end game Premade has been fought with zero deaths on either side related to this exact problem. A possible solution I would suggest would be to adjust PVP healing depression to 75% and make sure ALL forms of healing are affected. Perhaps excluding player powers thus making Healers more relevant again.
Another suggestion would be to add healing debuffs to classes like SW that can then be very important in PVP causing their foes to experience even less healing from internal/external sources similar to the Shadowtouch boon from dread ring. This would allow some classes to function as debuffs that are very important for wiping a node in PVP.
Bring back killability in PVP. Focus less on internal healing devices like these and more on actual class balance. The reason people want internal healing is because a few classes have all the burst damage and CC to use it appropriately and the rest of the classes must rely on internal healing to keep them alive vs. that type of DPS. Using healing to make all classes unkillable and thus "balanced" isn't true balance. It's boring quite frankly and many end game players will tell you this.
If you agree or disagree, let me know what you think.
P.S. I'd also like to hear what primarily PVEers think about all this healing. Is it too much? Not enough? Does it really make a difference? Feel free to post relevant comments below!
1) Lifesteal with endless consumption. Many classes began running with 20% + Lifesteal and occasionally got 3x as much healing from it.
2) Waterwheel artifact. Many classes, if not all at some point, ran with this artifact to get the heals (100% of your health or 50% with healing depression).
3) Drowned weapons. Procs every 60 seconds and gives 30 seconds worth of heals (50% of your health or 25% in healing depression).
4) Boons. Elven tranquility 20000 HP, Enraged regrowth 20000 HP, Engine Inspiration 20000 HP, Wall of wind 24000 HP or Gale of retribution 24000 HP. All of these should be halved in healing depression, I haven't tested to make sure they are. This also doesn't include the bonuses to lifesteal severity and incoming healing bonuses which contribute to overall self healing.
5) Mount Insignia Bonuses. Vampires craving lifesteal gives you 3% of max HP, Survivors blessing deflecting gives you 3% of your Max HP, Oppressor's reprieve when you are CC'd you get 4% of your Max HP, Barbarian's revelry when you crit you get 1.5% of your Max HP, Champions return when you hit 50% HP you get 20% HP. There are lesser versions of these as well that can either be used separately or stacked (with huge diminishing returns). There are more healing insignias showing on the PTR for next mod as well.
6) Mounts. Skeleton steed using a daily power gives you 20% of your HP, Lion mount healed for 10% HP when attacked over 10 seconds after the shield from the combat power expires.
What we are finding end game is that all these elements combined with healing pots and or any healing classes makes end game PVP a joke. There are exactly two classes on live server right now that can kill at end game. The TR and the GF, only because they have huge burst damage. The TR still needs the ITF buff from the GF to be an effective clearer as everyone also has high HP.
Many an end game Premade has been fought with zero deaths on either side related to this exact problem. A possible solution I would suggest would be to adjust PVP healing depression to 75% and make sure ALL forms of healing are affected. Perhaps excluding player powers thus making Healers more relevant again.
Another suggestion would be to add healing debuffs to classes like SW that can then be very important in PVP causing their foes to experience even less healing from internal/external sources similar to the Shadowtouch boon from dread ring. This would allow some classes to function as debuffs that are very important for wiping a node in PVP.
Bring back killability in PVP. Focus less on internal healing devices like these and more on actual class balance. The reason people want internal healing is because a few classes have all the burst damage and CC to use it appropriately and the rest of the classes must rely on internal healing to keep them alive vs. that type of DPS. Using healing to make all classes unkillable and thus "balanced" isn't true balance. It's boring quite frankly and many end game players will tell you this.
If you agree or disagree, let me know what you think.
P.S. I'd also like to hear what primarily PVEers think about all this healing. Is it too much? Not enough? Does it really make a difference? Feel free to post relevant comments below!
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Post edited by ltgamesttv#0999 on
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Don't get me wrong, it should be adjusted but I would rather they adjust what they want with the classes first then start fooling around with healing in pvp.
I do like the idea of a player healer (cleric/pally) being more effective than other forms of healing in pvp. However it would be more interesting if it only affected allies. AKA keep your healer alive and your party lives rather than here comes the immortal cleric to hold node 1/3 by herself
As far as healer tanks. My thought process is always if you can't kill in PVP you should be able to fight 1v1 and not die. It should take a 2v1 to kill you if you're a healing class because you should at least be able to stand and moot out a point if you can't kill your opponent. This goes for Pallies and DCs.
A big problem is that classes like SW and HR are made moot because their DoT DPS is made irrelevant by this type of internal healing. They get reduced to utility classes. Then classes like GWF who have good internal healing and lifesteal and, if all their stacks are up, good DPS but have zero CC that is worth anything are also mooted out. These issues aren't as plain though when all this healing muddies the waters.
Thanks for your reply.
Rough suggestions below, may be subject to addition/revision. Give it a day or so before kneecapping.
Only GF and TR can kill stuff on live and with GF nerf even less kills will be seen in PvP. The healing needs to be toned down a lot or buff some classes damage like CW, HR and SW (dont know how HR/SW are after the balance changes).
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
DPS characters usually go with offensive boons and bonuses instead of defensive, of cause one or two defensive sources are nice to have, especially when being a 1,6k IL warlock doing solo content (then your character only survives the combat with more than 2 mobs due to those healing sources).
I have a virtous cleric and because I dont care about dealing dmg being a buffer/ healer, I only went for defensive/ healing boons and bonuses. Although they are next to useless for me considering that I play a virtous cleric.
But if I played PVP again, then I would definitely (no matter which class) stack up on all kind of healing and defensive boons and bonuses because in pvp defense is better than offense. Full pvp gear, all kind of incoming healing sources and shitloads of armor penetration. And of cause 3/3 lathander artifact set + Soulforge enchantment. Even if you should fall, you will have your revenge... immediately.
Thats probably the only way how to "deathmatch".
In my opinion Healers need healing depression as well. Back in mod 5 when I still pvp'ed fully geared pvp clerics only had to pop up astral shield and all dmg was reduced to 0. Now I was mainly a pve player and only had 60% RI. But good clerics still heal more than dmg is done.
For instance the healing over time ticks just of divine glow (a pretty weak healing spell) of my virtous cleric usually heal 60K average, 100K+ on Tanks. Each tick has a chance to proc Engine Inspiration, and if the tick crits it heals additionally for +15% ( due to the heroic feat "Repurpose Soul"). And I do not even use a vorpal/ dread enchantment, I use holy avenger.
If I did pvp with my cleric, opponents wouldnt have a chance to kill me or my team mates due to the huge amount of healing over time.
I'm not that sure about it but I think the Critical Chance Resistance provided of PVP gear does not affect healing spells (never have done pvp on my cleric). So if a high crit virtous cleric in full pvp gear + vorpal/ dread enchantment would join a pvp match... Im pretty sure its just not possible to kill them or their mates around them (if they are fully geared as well).
I really think healing depression needs to affect healers as well, also if they are rightous cleric.
I have to disagree with you on only TRs and GFs being able to get kills. I find the opponents that kill me most often are high-end CWs and HRs for the same reason I'm able to get plenty of kills as a CW as well - CC powers. HR Trappers pecking me to death when I can do *nothing* for 10 seconds is infuriating! In fact, DC/OP aside, my biggest problem with PvP is that kills happen across the board TOO fast. Generally, you can tell your opponent is pvp geared when you don't kill them in under 2 seconds - healing is irrelevant. Those healing abilities are necessary to compensate for the massive power creep, so while calling for a "fix" to the healing sources, you also need to call for a power creep overhaul as well, both will need to happen at the same time. The massive power creep is why you have 1000-200 matches, not the healing creep - when the other team is just unlucky enough to have no or only a couple actual pvp players and therefore get totally crushed - healing doesn't really do the under powered team any good.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
The problems you address are all relevant but I didn't intend to try and address an overarching issue facing PVP. If I were to do so it would cover:
1) Tenacity should be on character sheet, not gear bound. Thus PVP wouldn't be such a hazing ritual for new players. Tenacity is ungodly OP in PVP. If you don't have it... you will 100% get rekt.
2) Boons from end game guilds. There should be some level of equivalence amongst players in PVP. Not allowing it then causes a disparity that can't be bridged.
3) Class balancing. Burst damage tends to win in PVP as DoT damage with so much healing tends to be mooted out except at low level with no tenacity/internal healing.
4) Drains and Ambush rings abolished. For the love of the gods do we even need to go over this again?
5) Getting rid of AD for people who have 600 points. So many people Q just to instantly "GG" and get 600 points to farm their daily AD. If you end up on their team it's an insta loss, if you end up against them it's a boring waste of a match. There should not be AD involved unless you win, period. Thus it would encourage people who are competitive and seeking to actually PVP to play, farm, get gear, get better builds, and get in guilds that do PVP. Give PVEers another source of AD to compensate for it. It makes it too tempting for them to throw matches they have no interest in fighting.
These are the primary issues I would see related to PVP.
If you are dying "TOO fast" I would say it's a lack of either tenacity, guild boons, insignias/internal healing related, or perhaps all the above.
Thanks for your reply.
whoop, I just fixed your pvp system.
I may even come back if they did all of this..
Healers heal.. dps damage.. tanks hold things.. wowzers.
I would also institute a 50% penalty on ap gain source while flagged for pvp.
I would then drop out all mount and comp bonuses in all sources of pvp.. even open world.
I would also dump ambush and all drains.
Bam..
players can just play their class again. The world sings in harmony and things might even be fun.
But alas, even 50% of that is a pure wish list.
To anyone who reads their posts it's quite obvious what their goal is. They never add anything of value or integrity to the conversation because they don't have anything worthwhile to say.
This is a post about healing and the changes made to it. The fact that regen was considered OP but then we've been given more healing than we ever had before and the discussion is if it's necessary both in PVE and in PVP or if only one side is suffering from it. This being a GENERAL discussion about GENERAL game play I don't think I should be relegated to wherever you or other forum trolls feel like placing me or my forum posts.
I understand that when you FINALLY got to your point that you think healing in PVE is fine, this is the type of feedback for discussion I was looking for. I'm glad that you've finally been able to focus your attention on the actual content of the post rather than the headline for it (I realize this is difficult for some). Thanks for your input that PVE healing is appropriate, I would love to see if others agree or disagree with this one bit of relevant discussion buried in your verbiage.
Thanks for your reply.
What I don't like seeing is people soloing T2 Dungeons in youtube videos because they can maintain enough self heals to do so. I don't like seeing people soloing any "group" content. If they can it means 1) The content is too easy 2) There is too much self heals. At least imho.
I never ever want to stand toe to toe with Orcus and have to take off my gear in order to die and reset again. What a joke!
There is no point having heal classes in this game at the moment, save perhaps for in pvp. Being a DC has never been so boring. You are just about to heal someone and poof... their health is full from some unknown source that you didn't proc. No one builds for surviving anymore because they are constantly in a state of healing hp, so they build for pure dps. Dungeons are completed in a matter of minutes and all in all, it's extremely lacking in fun.
I remember better days, where Castle Never runs were hard, and picking up a group to run it could keep you in front of the pc for hours. I definitely remember joining some 2 hour runs, they were long and a whole bunch of fun!
Let DC's and Healing OPs do the healing, give us something to do, give us a challenge again.
Admittedly, Mod 6 didn't help but push pvp off the cliff, still, once they added pvp gear and tenacity the pvp matches started to become more and more 1 sided. The power creep isn't helping but also its as bad as some would make it out to be.
Also, lets not forget, you really shouldn't base the game around BiS since the majority of the players will probably never achieve it. I honestly miss PvP, I wish it could go back to the old days, back when it was fun and the main complaint was the lack of maps.
List of issues with PvP is so long Im not sure there is any quick fix for it. They could literally devote an entire mod to just trying to rebuild PvP into something fun for all.
More importantly what do you think about the healing in both PVE and PVP related to gear/insignias/mounts/artifacts?
But you might have started with ArPen. You can have the Stronghold boon, rock Darks in your offensive slots, and trot around on a multimillion AD axebeak and still not have enough.
Tenacity is a wrecking ball for crit, so bye-bye Vorpal, azure enchants, etc. Everyone gets to carry Feytouched.
Do you prefer Negation or Elven Battle? Choice? There's your choices.
You say you wanted a Hybrid build??? Hahahahahahah.
Stop saying that dungeons are too easy, they might be easy with a 4k IL team, or a perfect class combination, but they're not too easy for 90% of the players...
I have a 3.9 GWF, and a 2.9 GF, and, if i end up with a random team, then even ETOS can be difficult.
Each time we pay to build our characters someone sneezes to knock down our card castle.
I built my character based on regeneration first... 6000+ regeneration with buffs and maxing artifacts, then regeneration got nerfed.
Next I built my character around lifesteal, and now you are asking for it to get nerfed.
Instead of asking for life steal nerf, ask for stronghold boon nerfs!