I guess u misunderstood my stance. I am a 2k DC who usually happily pug everything. If you let a 2k DC carry whole skirmish or dungeon dont you think something is wrong? There is some 3k or near 3k dpser in your party but yet, your dps is still higher than them. If you were me, will you slowly grind for 1 hour and die many times to settle that CN run or just requeue for a better party??
I responded to your post where you said you will leave KR. I dont believe you can carry a group in CN.
Another statement i want to propose is, there are always some slow players ( I called them slackers ) who prefer slow and steady action, burdenning whole team behind. When we are pushing, he loots the green junks and search for skill nodes. When we are pushing hard, he slacks behind and not seriously dpsing. Some of them not even using the right skill and in result when you open the dps chart, as a 2k DC without shadow demon and damaging enchant (vorpal/dread etc), you still have higher dps than those high il guys, what do you think?
Wot i think? Well..i dunno how theese slackers can make any damage if they loot every green item and open every skill node meanwhile you are fighting. I think its no wonder if yo can make more dps as a higher il player if he is just slacking.
Are they right? Yes you will say everyone can play anyway as they like, but in fact this brings inconvenience to others. I geared so hard to support and to speed up YOUR run, in return you give me such jokes, you still think playing slowly, enjoying and exploring is good?? I will still quit any run with low completing speed unless helping guildies in future. If you met me, it is ok if you dont want to do maximum speed run with those exploits, at least play seriously and dont slack. DPS chart shows everything from you, please at least dps 150% more than the 2k DC, especially when he doubles your dps with all his effort.
I will never do runs with exploits. DPS chart shows abolutely NOT everything from a player. I dont know how a player in a pug group can bring inconvenience in this group. Its a pug group...you should know what that means. You can leave grps so often you will. I dont care. But you leave groups cuzz you dont like the way they playing....think about it: What if i inv you in a group and whole group is leaving dungeon after first boss cuzz i say "Nahh...this DC suxx. He is not playing the style i like.Lets get another one"?
I guess u misunderstood my stance. I am a 2k DC who usually happily pug everything. If you let a 2k DC carry whole skirmish or dungeon dont you think something is wrong? There is some 3k or near 3k dpser in your party but yet, your dps is still higher than them. If you were me, will you slowly grind for 1 hour and die many times to settle that CN run or just requeue for a better party??
I responded to your post where you said you will leave KR. I dont believe you can carry a group in CN.
Another statement i want to propose is, there are always some slow players ( I called them slackers ) who prefer slow and steady action, burdenning whole team behind. When we are pushing, he loots the green junks and search for skill nodes. When we are pushing hard, he slacks behind and not seriously dpsing. Some of them not even using the right skill and in result when you open the dps chart, as a 2k DC without shadow demon and damaging enchant (vorpal/dread etc), you still have higher dps than those high il guys, what do you think?
Wot i think? Well..i dunno how theese slackers can make any damage if they loot every green item and open every skill node meanwhile you are fighting. I think its no wonder if yo can make more dps as a higher il player if he is just slacking.
Are they right? Yes you will say everyone can play anyway as they like, but in fact this brings inconvenience to others. I geared so hard to support and to speed up YOUR run, in return you give me such jokes, you still think playing slowly, enjoying and exploring is good?? I will still quit any run with low completing speed unless helping guildies in future. If you met me, it is ok if you dont want to do maximum speed run with those exploits, at least play seriously and dont slack. DPS chart shows everything from you, please at least dps 150% more than the 2k DC, especially when he doubles your dps with all his effort.
I will never do runs with exploits. DPS chart shows abolutely NOT everything from a player. I dont know how a player in a pug group can bring inconvenience in this group. Its a pug group...you should know what that means. You can leave grps so often you will. I dont care. But you leave groups cuzz you dont like the way they playing....think about it: What if i inv you in a group and whole group is leaving dungeon after first boss cuzz i say "Nahh...this DC suxx. He is not playing the style i like.Lets get another one"?
1. My dps is far from carrying CN, that is the rights of the BIS 4ks. My dps however, is close to if not more than those 3k+ despite I am 2k DC (Yes any DC can deal that much of dmg even not using heavy dps encounter but normal buffing skills only.)
2. I dont care what he is doing as long as he contribute enough dps. You can go and do anything you want as long as you done your part.
3. I doubt someone will kick me out unless they have some logic problems. "Hey, this DC dps is higher than us, he cheated, not fun so lets quit this run and let him get other pugs." "OMG i dont want free AD and fast run, i want to grind slowly and enjoy the game *click leave party* "
4. Although i dont think there is another answer for this question, "Which type of teammates you want to encounter? A slacker or a competitive one?" I chose the latter, and tried to be one. How about you?
I wouldnt want either. But id be willing to guess that the slacker will be much friendlier and easy to go along with then the competitive player. Competitive players tend to be jerks. Especially when there is little to actually compete against.
For me personally, id just want a competent player.
I guess u misunderstood my stance. I am a 2k DC who usually happily pug everything. If you let a 2k DC carry whole skirmish or dungeon dont you think something is wrong? There is some 3k or near 3k dpser in your party but yet, your dps is still higher than them. If you were me, will you slowly grind for 1 hour and die many times to settle that CN run or just requeue for a better party??
I responded to your post where you said you will leave KR. I dont believe you can carry a group in CN.
Another statement i want to propose is, there are always some slow players ( I called them slackers ) who prefer slow and steady action, burdenning whole team behind. When we are pushing, he loots the green junks and search for skill nodes. When we are pushing hard, he slacks behind and not seriously dpsing. Some of them not even using the right skill and in result when you open the dps chart, as a 2k DC without shadow demon and damaging enchant (vorpal/dread etc), you still have higher dps than those high il guys, what do you think?
Wot i think? Well..i dunno how theese slackers can make any damage if they loot every green item and open every skill node meanwhile you are fighting. I think its no wonder if yo can make more dps as a higher il player if he is just slacking.
Are they right? Yes you will say everyone can play anyway as they like, but in fact this brings inconvenience to others. I geared so hard to support and to speed up YOUR run, in return you give me such jokes, you still think playing slowly, enjoying and exploring is good?? I will still quit any run with low completing speed unless helping guildies in future. If you met me, it is ok if you dont want to do maximum speed run with those exploits, at least play seriously and dont slack. DPS chart shows everything from you, please at least dps 150% more than the 2k DC, especially when he doubles your dps with all his effort.
I will never do runs with exploits. DPS chart shows abolutely NOT everything from a player. I dont know how a player in a pug group can bring inconvenience in this group. Its a pug group...you should know what that means. You can leave grps so often you will. I dont care. But you leave groups cuzz you dont like the way they playing....think about it: What if i inv you in a group and whole group is leaving dungeon after first boss cuzz i say "Nahh...this DC suxx. He is not playing the style i like.Lets get another one"?
1. My dps is far from carrying CN, that is the rights of the BIS 4ks. My dps however, is close to if not more than those 3k+ despite I am 2k DC (Yes any DC can deal that much of dmg even not using heavy dps encounter but normal buffing skills only.)
2. I dont care what he is doing as long as he contribute enough dps. You can go and do anything you want as long as you done your part.
3. I doubt someone will kick me out unless they have some logic problems. "Hey, this DC dps is higher than us, he cheated, not fun so lets quit this run and let him get other pugs." "OMG i dont want free AD and fast run, i want to grind slowly and enjoy the game *click leave party* "
4. Although i dont think there is another answer for this question, "Which type of teammates you want to encounter? A slacker or a competitive one?" I chose the latter, and tried to be one. How about you?
Unless you aren't using word and bastion so actually no type of heals and are actually doing just dmg and buffing. In that case you aren't really doing your job as a cleric of the party . You are a damage dealer, not a healer. In that case you are not going to be behind the group but you will be up front making a mess and crying when you die.
Second of all , as we said before, it is not your place to decide what others want and how they will play. If you feel you only want to do fast runs, without collecting loot and checking out nodes, then pick an adequate party from your guild and do so. Or alliance.. or PE chat.
Don't expect pugs to grant you wishes, We are not genies and we don't grant endless wishes.
Last but not least important, my main is a 3.3 DC. I do not do damage and am absolutely fine with it. Not all of us want the build you have and are fine with other builds and ways of playing our character and the game in general.
And i am not going to run after anyone if he or she decides to jump into a fray , to boost their ego. And there isn't a single person that will refuse to do a dungeon with me or kick me out of a party. Never happened and i hope never will.
You have no right to say someone is a slacker just cos you out-damage him or her or cos they are slower then you are. Damage is not an indication of a players value. Being Slow is not an indication of value. And if you feel that way then you are mistaken.
I wouldnt want either. But id be willing to guess that the slacker will be much friendlier and easy to go along with then the competitive player. Competitive players tend to be jerks. Especially when there is little to actually compete against.
For me personally, id just want a competent player.
Guess again. Bad manners are not the result of good gear and vice versa. When I did PuG TOS runs ppl complained, bc I 'just' killed 90% of the mobs and did not clear all adds. A friend of mine got insulted by a player for running to fast. This guy tried to 'punish' him, by not triggering the boss fight. His only problem was, that my friend did the run just bc he was bored and he had more fun by sharing this guys rants with us, then by completing the dungeon.
I guess u misunderstood my stance. I am a 2k DC who usually happily pug everything. If you let a 2k DC carry whole skirmish or dungeon dont you think something is wrong? There is some 3k or near 3k dpser in your party but yet, your dps is still higher than them. If you were me, will you slowly grind for 1 hour and die many times to settle that CN run or just requeue for a better party??
I responded to your post where you said you will leave KR. I dont believe you can carry a group in CN.
Another statement i want to propose is, there are always some slow players ( I called them slackers ) who prefer slow and steady action, burdenning whole team behind. When we are pushing, he loots the green junks and search for skill nodes. When we are pushing hard, he slacks behind and not seriously dpsing. Some of them not even using the right skill and in result when you open the dps chart, as a 2k DC without shadow demon and damaging enchant (vorpal/dread etc), you still have higher dps than those high il guys, what do you think?
Wot i think? Well..i dunno how theese slackers can make any damage if they loot every green item and open every skill node meanwhile you are fighting. I think its no wonder if yo can make more dps as a higher il player if he is just slacking.
Are they right? Yes you will say everyone can play anyway as they like, but in fact this brings inconvenience to others. I geared so hard to support and to speed up YOUR run, in return you give me such jokes, you still think playing slowly, enjoying and exploring is good?? I will still quit any run with low completing speed unless helping guildies in future. If you met me, it is ok if you dont want to do maximum speed run with those exploits, at least play seriously and dont slack. DPS chart shows everything from you, please at least dps 150% more than the 2k DC, especially when he doubles your dps with all his effort.
I will never do runs with exploits. DPS chart shows abolutely NOT everything from a player. I dont know how a player in a pug group can bring inconvenience in this group. Its a pug group...you should know what that means. You can leave grps so often you will. I dont care. But you leave groups cuzz you dont like the way they playing....think about it: What if i inv you in a group and whole group is leaving dungeon after first boss cuzz i say "Nahh...this DC suxx. He is not playing the style i like.Lets get another one"?
1. My dps is far from carrying CN, that is the rights of the BIS 4ks. My dps however, is close to if not more than those 3k+ despite I am 2k DC (Yes any DC can deal that much of dmg even not using heavy dps encounter but normal buffing skills only.)
2. I dont care what he is doing as long as he contribute enough dps. You can go and do anything you want as long as you done your part.
3. I doubt someone will kick me out unless they have some logic problems. "Hey, this DC dps is higher than us, he cheated, not fun so lets quit this run and let him get other pugs." "OMG i dont want free AD and fast run, i want to grind slowly and enjoy the game *click leave party* "
4. Although i dont think there is another answer for this question, "Which type of teammates you want to encounter? A slacker or a competitive one?" I chose the latter, and tried to be one. How about you?
Unless you aren't using word and bastion so actually no type of heals and are actually doing just dmg and buffing. In that case you aren't really doing your job as a cleric of the party . You are a damage dealer, not a healer. In that case you are not going to be behind the group but you will be up front making a mess and crying when you die.
Second of all , as we said before, it is not your place to decide what others want and how they will play. If you feel you only want to do fast runs, without collecting loot and checking out nodes, then pick an adequate party from your guild and do so. Or alliance.. or PE chat.
Don't expect pugs to grant you wishes, We are not genies and we don't grant endless wishes.
Last but not least important, my main is a 3.3 DC. I do not do damage and am absolutely fine with it. Not all of us want the build you have and are fine with other builds and ways of playing our character and the game in general.
And i am not going to run after anyone if he or she decides to jump into a fray , to boost their ego. And there isn't a single person that will refuse to do a dungeon with me or kick me out of a party. Never happened and i hope never will.
You have no right to say someone is a slacker just cos you out-damage him or her or cos they are slower then you are. Damage is not an indication of a players value. Being Slow is not an indication of value. And if you feel that way then you are mistaken.
A DC who does not heal, does not do his job? Then every DC in BIS groups plays wrong, bc this groups take a DC for buff/debuff. No one needs heals, if he has decent gear and knows how to play.
I wouldnt want either. But id be willing to guess that the slacker will be much friendlier and easy to go along with then the competitive player. Competitive players tend to be jerks. Especially when there is little to actually compete against.
For me personally, id just want a competent player.
I'd pick even an incompetent player over the jerk. This game (and forum ftm) are over-run with them.
Remember when this game had nice people? Before Cryptic ramped the difficulty to 11 at mod6 and most of the adult-casuals left. Cryptic didn't take into account that casual adult players have jobs and credit cards with big GD limits.
They listened to twitchies whines about difficulty, now this game is on life support with < 2k steam chart players and all the bait&switch and nerfs in the name of the bogus bot war to make an extra 30 cents per player isn't going to save it.
I doubt someone will kick me out unless they have some logic problems.
I'll kick you out regardless because you're mad when people don't do stuff that you wanted them to do. You're no different than any GWF that tells righteous DCs to spam Bastions, Shields and Words.
You shouldn't be giving out orders. You should be sending them requests in a polite manner. Are you forgetting that characters are controlled by someone on a keyboard on the other side of the screen?
If you really want to kill slackers, you have to kill them with kindness. Results are already obvious to you when you're flaming someone for their.....beginner's DPS, so why don't you cook up something that gives you better results instead of blaming? Don't just go turn off your brain, leave instance and go full tilt.
I'm assuming all of them are English speakers and if they don't know English or they didn't respond to you because they're using TeamSpeak (I have one PUG where all of them are in the same guild and knows English but no one responds to me), you're free to leave by dropping bb on chat.
Positive Mental Attitude, dude. Learn it. Don't be like Trick2g.
A DC who does not heal, does not do his job? Then every DC in BIS groups plays wrong, bc this groups take a DC for buff/debuff. No one needs heals, if he has decent gear and knows how to play.
Don't confuse with BiS groups (where else can you call for BiS players if not LFG and guild channel?) and PUG groups, which in every case of PUG, needs moderate heals or they'll die.
You don't know whether someone who supposedly tanks for the group runs for either heals for OP or DPS for GF.
I have a righteous DC and it's all PUG life for me before re-spec to clutch heals DC since more often than not, CWs have to go melee mode to lay out Icy Terrain for their rotation have a spike lag and dies and Divine Glow doesn't help. In PUG, expect every ping from players to be between 300 (as far as Australia) to more than a thousand (already a spike, which characters will be standing still from a good 2 seconds to the abysmal 10 minutes, which is disconnected from server).
A DC who does not heal, does not do his job? Then every DC in BIS groups plays wrong, bc this groups take a DC for buff/debuff. No one needs heals, if he has decent gear and knows how to play.
We are not talking about BiS groups. Do you play only with + 3 k people? I certainly do not. The only dungeon that might not need heals is Elol. And that is also a very big stretch .... Decent gear has to be earned. Be it running T1s or T2s . How do you expect people to get it if they can not do dungeons? They have to start somewhere, don't they? Please tell me how a little level 70, who just got to 70, and is trying to get the lowest level 70 gear is going to be able to survive any of the current dungeons without heals? With magic?
In any case that is not a point of this thread. I agree with deathbeez and sockmunkey and what they said.
Too many ppl doesn't even know what a DC is capable of...
We know what DC is capable off.
We do remember when DC was the best damage dealer out there. Or when you did not need any heals to do dungeon, even with low level people in your freaking party.
When the righteous build was something to be admired to. When a dc could tank a dungeon better then gf. And yes until today with right tweaks it can be what it was if you know how to play that freaking character. We freaking get it. The fact is a low IL DC is not ready to keep the low IL party alive, without heals. It is not good to be condescending. It can backfire.
The fact is a low IL DC is not ready to keep the low IL party alive, without heals.
You mean SOME of the low IL DCs have Daunting Light and Chains slotted. Because, I don't do that on my low IL DC. Even with the Bastion AoE, I still can't heal some of them if the fight is too spread out.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
So here is a video of a recent speedrun we did, with an explanation of everything we did included:
Please bare in mind I have very limited editing skills, which is very evident in the video. However, please try and tell me that there wasn't more organization and teamwork going on there than in most groups, both slow groups and fast. After every run, we would sit down and discuss where we could save time, which powers we could swap out, etc. Do groups who go slowly spend this much time on trying to perfect their runs and improve their performance? No. To get runs like that, we spend hours trying new stuff and running the dungeons over and over again.
The fact is a low IL DC is not ready to keep the low IL party alive, without heals.
You mean SOME of the low IL DCs have Daunting Light and Chains slotted. Because, I don't do that on my low IL DC. Even with the Bastion AoE, I still can't heal some of them if the fight is too spread out.
Please bare in mind I have very limited editing skills, which is very evident in the video. However, please try and tell me that there wasn't more organization and teamwork going on there than in most groups, both slow groups and fast. After every run, we would sit down and discuss where we could save time, which powers we could swap out, etc. Do groups who go slowly spend this much time on trying to perfect their runs and improve their performance? No. To get runs like that, we spend hours trying new stuff and running the dungeons over and over again.
It seems like a great and carefully planned run. And you should be proud you have a group like that to run with. ( Also my editing skills really suck so this seems fine to me!! )
To answer your question, yes they do. XD Or to correct myself, yes we do. I think it all comes down to how you approach people. I tend to try to be as polite as possible and if they ignore me , well, tough luck for them. They need me more then i need them. I have 3 characters level 70 and ready to run, now leveling 2 more. My main, cleric, sometimes really needs a break from speed runs. So i either pug or do guild / alliance slow runs. In my exp. i had more success in explaining things ,then you did. I do not really get ignored much.
What i am trying really hard to explain here is, even the slowest group can do careful planning. It does not matter if they are slow or are just taking their sweet time to do what they do. You get to the boss eventually. And their value is the same as any other fast runner out there. So maybe they will not earn as much AD as you do, and maybe our planning can not be as awesome , but it still works. A random pug group does not have hours of of trying things together and running together. You basically get one shot at trying it and if people like you, they ll ask you to run again. There is a difference, right?
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
The fact is a low IL DC is not ready to keep the low IL party alive, without heals.
You mean SOME of the low IL DCs have Daunting Light and Chains slotted. Because, I don't do that on my low IL DC. Even with the Bastion AoE, I still can't heal some of them if the fight is too spread out.
Please bare in mind I have very limited editing skills, which is very evident in the video. However, please try and tell me that there wasn't more organization and teamwork going on there than in most groups, both slow groups and fast. After every run, we would sit down and discuss where we could save time, which powers we could swap out, etc. Do groups who go slowly spend this much time on trying to perfect their runs and improve their performance? No. To get runs like that, we spend hours trying new stuff and running the dungeons over and over again.
It seems like a great and carefully planned run. And you should be proud you have a group like that to run with. ( Also my editing skills really suck so this seems fine to me!! )
To answer your question, yes they do. XD Or to correct myself, yes we do. I think it all comes down to how you approach people. I tend to try to be as polite as possible and if they ignore me , well, tough luck for them. They need me more then i need them. I have 3 characters level 70 and ready to run, now leveling 2 more. My main, cleric, sometimes really needs a break from speed runs. So i either pug or do guild / alliance slow runs. In my exp. i had more success in explaining things ,then you did. I do not really get ignored much.
What i am trying really hard to explain here is, even the slowest group can do careful planning. It does not matter if they are slow or are just taking their sweet time to do what they do. You get to the boss eventually. And their value is the same as any other fast runner out there. So maybe they will not earn as much AD as you do, and maybe our planning can not be as awesome , but it still works. A random pug group does not have hours of of trying things together and running together. You basically get one shot at trying it and if people like you, they ll ask you to run again. There is a difference, right?
This is my experience with most people in NWO. Lets say we doing a dungeon and its going slowly, I recommend, "hey person xyz, would you mind slotting skill abc instead of hij? It should help us for the following reasons.... If you don't like it after trying it, you can swap back, but would you mind at least trying it out " Most people ignore you, leave the party, kick you or pretend that they have done it when they actually have not, a very small minority actually listens to that advice. I am not asking for much, I am asking for them to try something different and see how it goes and yet very few people are willing to do that and guess what, most of the people who are, play efficiently and finish dungeons fast, its normally the slow people who are unwilling to accept any advice, because they are so strung up about playing the game, "their way" that they are unwilling to try playing it differently. Are all my runs fast? No. Sometimes, I will do slow runs and do things like full clear MC for the fun of it. The point is, I would rather choose to play with people who do listen, than those who do not.
This is my experience with most people in NWO. Lets say we doing a dungeon and its going slowly, I recommend, "hey person xyz, would you mind slotting skill abc instead of hij? It should help us for the following reasons.... If you don't like it after trying it, you can swap back, but would you mind at least trying it out " Most people ignore you, leave the party, kick you or pretend that they have done it when they actually have not, a very small minority actually listens to that advice. I am not asking for much, I am asking for them to try something different and see how it goes and yet very few people are willing to do that and guess what, most of the people who are, play efficiently and finish dungeons fast, its normally the slow people who are unwilling to accept any advice, because they are so strung up about playing the game, "their way" that they are unwilling to try playing it differently. Are all my runs fast? No. Sometimes, I will do slow runs and do things like full clear MC for the fun of it. The point is, I would rather choose to play with people who do listen, than those who do not.
I can understand that. It seems I may have different exp. then you do in how people react to me, maybe i am just lucky lucky. I do know it is not the case for all people of-course but i really do not remember the last time i said something and people ignored or kicked me. Some are just plane rude and unnecessary abrasive. But usually that sorts itself in the best possible way and no one gets offended. There is just people like that, just like in real life. If we can not finish a run i am usually the first person to volunteer my spot if people are not happy. But that is really really rare. In any case i do see your point and do agree with your point. Choosing people who do listen to you is nothing bad.
one time i told a GF to use his TAB ability cause he was contnuasly forgot it while we were fightin orcus, and if only for 1s the aggro is lost, i am dead... so i guess the guy couldn't press TAB every 10s-15s , when i told the guys "hey please press TAB " he got so defensive and told me "mind your own class" , lol ... i asked the same from a paladin, since they have also a mark, and i noticed that they can keep a better aggro with that, they gone defensive cause i told them.
Not to mention recently i asked a GF fella to go ahead of the group, i swear that he was goin slowly on purpose, because after a group of mobs were cleared he was having like 3-4 seconds to procces that he has to move further, so i ended up having CN runs of 40 minutes, even thou the normal runs last for 11-15 minutes.
But i do belive there are some speedfreaks around there that just enjoy a slow run, and instead of adjusting themself to the party they are using this mentality "let them die" , even thou if you use /walk 1 from the beginnin to the end, you are sitll goin to arrive first at the end boss, reminds me of the turtle and the rabbit race, in which the rabbit chooses to take huge breaks... Thats how some players are in this game too, they just want to waste time.
Speedfreak here Just kidding. I let people die , only when they really really ask for it. Come have a picnic with me in the middle of GW den. I promise lots of fun XD
I have days when i collect greenies. Usually i warn people before hand and it may be said it is not even a normal run. It is more of a slow, have a picnic, look at fashion items, compare companions run. Give fashion advices as well, run. But if i want to do a fast CN run , running it 5 times in a row, 15 min each i can do it without any problems as well.
I guess what i am trying to say is.. have you seen my rabbit? Check it out
My experience is, that good players ask you or your teammate for your/his build/ rotation, if everything went better then they are used to or if you/another teammate did really good dps as a DD.
With most players everything goes ok and there is no need for communication, except a ty at the end of the run.
Furthermore there are those 'individualists'. Dont get me wrong, everyone can play as he wants, but if your character/build is so messed up, that you and your teammates cant complete a T1 dungeon, even with a 3k+ player doing 90% of the work, you might consider taking advice from this guy after 5 failed boss fights, bc otherwise it is just wasted time.
I had a 2k+ IL CW with a cosmetic skin in the weapon slot doing 1/100th of my CWs dmg. Many GFs playing without enhanced mark or ITF, constantly losing aggro. Tanks with bad gear kiting Valindra in VT with a group of melee DDs, wondering, why there was so little dps.
I dont want everyone to use the same build, gear and rotation, but there are some things, that clearly work and somethings, that obviously dont work. If you whipe time after time, something is wrong.
You cant blame the fact, that ppl dont understand what you are writing. I played with other german players and I asked them in german, if they would try XY, who ignored me. I did share my build with russian, polish and italian players, who did not speak one word english or german. They asked for my build, I uploaded screenshots of it and we communicated via google translator.
Imo not the player doing 90% of the work, sticking with an undergeared group and offering advice, if something does not work is the snob, but the PuG player that prefers failing to taking advice.
Lastly, if the content required an il of 2k, please at least enter when you have the ability of 2.5k. I had met several new 2k cleric that dont even understand what i told him and what his skill effect does nor how to use them efficiently. Most of them are healer, a healer that do 0 dps, failed to heal and keep dying in hand of adds. I know everyone have to have a start on something, but dont ever go for things you cant do. There are also a GF i met today with barely over 2k il requirement without knowing how to tank in CN, he just go and wipe and go and wipe while we dps behind, 4 manned the first boss of CN. I know we cant make it to orcus with him, so i left.
What i want to say is, please dont burden your team and let them carry you. I can accept 1k players in PoM/ToDG or even Kessel, as long as they really put effort on their jobs. I can accept fresh people running a dungeon with me. But i cannot accept slackers or people enter waiting for you to carry them ( aka leecher ). Please be prepared for things you queued, 1.6k il will wipe in KR, so as 2k for CN. Please at least get some gear or learn to play your character but not put all hope onto other people. I built to support, not carry.
Imagine a crystal maiden or omniknight forced to carry the whole team while the anti mage, drow, sven etc was feeding. That is what i feel when i met those incompetent ones.
To make things clear: Slow but relaxing tempo etc may cause slow run, but slow run doesnt only means the player dont want to rush. The main reason i hate slow run is because of irresponsible of the player either on bad playing attitude or aiming to leech on others. Period.
Watched what you wanted me to look at and it was quite boring to say the least.
Of course they were boring to watch (I don't watch NWO plays either and I assumed you prefer real-time action-oriented instead of turn-based) since they are meant to be played to enjoy (I don't want to encourage people to play this and asked them to stay way instead since it has more grind than NWO itself).
Those games can't be patched anyway. Some classes are way much more broken than SW and GF combined together but it doesn't have glitches like previous examples.
Actually, I'm all for Turn-based gameplay. Shining Force II, Final Fantasy VI, Phantasy Star IV, Skies of Arcadia just to name a few of my favorite games. Still, yes, speedruns are far more enjoyable when they're practically hacking with the controller. >:)
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Lastly, if the content required an il of 2k, please at least enter when you have the ability of 2.5k. I had met several new 2k cleric that dont even understand what i told him and what his skill effect does nor how to use them efficiently. Most of them are healer, a healer that do 0 dps, failed to heal and keep dying in hand of adds. I know everyone have to have a start on something, but dont ever go for things you cant do. There are also a GF i met today with barely over 2k il requirement without knowing how to tank in CN, he just go and wipe and go and wipe while we dps behind, 4 manned the first boss of CN. I know we cant make it to orcus with him, so i left.
What i want to say is, please dont burden your team and let them carry you. I can accept 1k players in PoM/ToDG or even Kessel, as long as they really put effort on their jobs. I can accept fresh people running a dungeon with me. But i cannot accept slackers or people enter waiting for you to carry them ( aka leecher ). Please be prepared for things you queued, 1.6k il will wipe in KR, so as 2k for CN. Please at least get some gear or learn to play your character but not put all hope onto other people. I built to support, not carry.
Imagine a crystal maiden or omniknight forced to carry the whole team while the anti mage, drow, sven etc was feeding. That is what i feel when i met those incompetent ones.
To make things clear: Slow but relaxing tempo etc may cause slow run, but slow run doesnt only means the player dont want to rush. The main reason i hate slow run is because of irresponsible of the player either on bad playing attitude or aiming to leech on others. Period.
See, we do agree on things, when you say them like that XD
I have to admit, i have seen plenty of 2k or less, players trying runs for the first time and not knowing what to do.
But do have in mind they need to try it eventually. And people tend to freak out and not show their full potential. It is normal, they are human after all. We all make mistakes and it is only when they get to 70 do they truly start to learn how to play their character in dungeons.
By doing little dungeons they can do, people tend to feel overpowered. And i am not saying it is bad. But then they pug for their first elol and bam XD They get wiped at the first boss. It tends to make people frustrated. Especially if there is no guildies to explain things to them properly. Like : " see that really big red circle on the ground ? avoid it at all cost " X
So many times we took our little ones to CN, to try it for the first time. And people would get scared at Porcus. It takes patience, different skills should be used, rotations are important. Make a mistake and not even a scroll of mass life will save you.
But they really need to learn, you know... To them it all seems too hard at first. And some can not handle it. That is all i wanted to say.
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myles08807Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 409Arc User
I started this thread, and I'm glad that it provoked an ongoing discussion. Based on the comments I've seen here, I guess I'll always be far to one side of the divide between "omg play your class right and keep up or you're kicked" and parties with legit suggestions and more of a group spirit. I'm forever grateful that my main is in a helpful and relentlessly positive guild populated not just by amazing toons, but amazing people.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Please bare in mind I have very limited editing skills, which is very evident in the video. However, please try and tell me that there wasn't more organization and teamwork going on there than in most groups, both slow groups and fast. After every run, we would sit down and discuss where we could save time, which powers we could swap out, etc. Do groups who go slowly spend this much time on trying to perfect their runs and improve their performance? No. To get runs like that, we spend hours trying new stuff and running the dungeons over and over again.
I will never say that speed running doesn't take a lot of teamwork and coordination.
It is not a style I enjoy AT ALL but when done correctly I definitely respect the skill it takes to do that (in any game).
What I hate, though, is when somebody watches or hears about gameplay like that and neglects to notice the prep, skill and teamwork required for such a playstyle and then try to force PUGs to attempt to repeat the feat in the most irritating and insulting way possible.
Every group is different and every person will react differently to various behaviors. It's something that people in true leadership positions learn quickly. Too often the people described above try to "lead" their party to victory by making people wish they could kill that player instead of the monsters.
Compared to a large amount of people I go fast...but I also play smart. I don't do anything to get my team killed and try to adapt to do what is needed for the party to be successful. I try to start dungeons slow and try to judge how the party copes with enemies rather than starting full speed.
Just because some group you saw did a dungeon in X time doesn't mean this group should or even can do it at the same rate and when players get that mentality they really only make life harder on themselves; especially if the speeds are achieved by running through rooms on the main paths which not all players are willing to do or even capable of doing.
I think the problem is less that people are going fast and more that they assume everybody else should or even can do so. Some people, like me, simply don't enjoy zerging. Other people are not capable of zerging due to the gear they have or simply lack the playskill to do so and to permit myself one slight generalization: the players who try to force the party to go faster than they are willing or capable of going are very often those who lack gear and/or playskill themselves.
EDIT - Just to be clear this isn't a rebuttal. My opinion relates to The Fabricant's post and I felt it was worth pointing to.
If I run along as a DC I run along with the slowest moving member(s) in the group. If people charging forward cry about it then let them cry. I am there for teamplay and not to save some solo idiots HAMSTER.
I even had it once that we had 3 rushers who left a load of HAMSTER to kill in their wake so the GF and I just killed them along the way, taking our time and not bothering with the cries of agony of the idiots who were half the dungeon ahead of us.
Not everyone can outsprint all the HAMSTER ahead, so I stick with the slowboats. And if the sprinters get too insulting I will even take my time and make me a coffee in between just to annoy them more while they wait at another gate that needs to be group activated. Heck I can even wait long enough to make part of them quit and find themselves a nice rush rush group. Me and the slowboats will get it finished anyways.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
This is my experience with most people in NWO. Lets say we doing a dungeon and its going slowly, I recommend, "hey person xyz, would you mind slotting skill abc instead of hij? It should help us for the following reasons.... If you don't like it after trying it, you can swap back, but would you mind at least trying it out " Most people ignore you, leave the party, kick you or pretend that they have done it when they actually have not, a very small minority actually listens to that advice. I am not asking for much, I am asking for them to try something different and see how it goes and yet very few people are willing to do that and guess what, most of the people who are, play efficiently and finish dungeons fast, its normally the slow people who are unwilling to accept any advice, because they are so strung up about playing the game, "their way" that they are unwilling to try playing it differently. Are all my runs fast? No. Sometimes, I will do slow runs and do things like full clear MC for the fun of it. The point is, I would rather choose to play with people who do listen, than those who do not.
I agree and disagree with this statement.
I have dealt with people on both ends acting this way although it is often for different reasons altogether.
There are definitely people in the world such as you described. I dealt with one for years who lacked playskill and had a bad build they refused to improve upon because the character was designed based on how their Pen and Paper character was built (more or less).
The goal of the guild for a long time was to try to get enough people geared and skilled enough to be able to carry that character/player through dungeons because having that character/player in a group was akin to not having a fifth person. In fact it was almost like only having 3.5 people because the party had to worry about keeping them alive instead of doing what they needed to do.
The extra bit of frustration was that the person never quite understood how much they hindered groups. Everytime they died or missed a swing it was the game, computer or lag's fault.
So yeah I have been there...
But being in a guild which focused on having casual gamers also meant that when pugs were used I dealt with a lot of players like I described in my previous post. Often those people didn't need to be told to swap skills or anything like you described. Often they simply refused to accept that they needed to slow down and change tactics if there were people less geared or less skilled players in the group.
There were of course quality players as well who would assess the situation and realize that they not only needed to slow down but were skilled enough to know which powers and gear would benefit the group the best...
But those were always the minority. The vast majority of PUGs would charge into rooms all alone or would continue to rely on tactics that only worked if the group had enough DPS or playskill to kill mobs fast enough which in my guild groups were simply not the case.
Yesterday I duo qued with my GF and a BIS righteous DC. Things melted like butter. Guess what, the 2-3k PuGs started running in front of me, to feed their ego and dont get outdpsed by a DC.
They did big trash pulls, died and I died trying to revive them. They left the trash, to do the next pull, so the DC and I hand to clear things up, catching up after a few seconds, bc their dps was a joke without GF and DC buffs.
I dont blame them for doing big pulls, I do the same with my CW or my GWF, but I can clear them on my own, if I dont die in a lag.
The problem are not good geared players 'forcing' others to adopt their playstyle, but ppl with bad gear trying to emulate it.
If I can handle a big pull alone, I do it. If I PuG with a lesser geared alt, I watch the first few pulls and see how the group fares, to find out, what is possible. The problem here are not ppl 'forcing' their playstyle to other players, but ppl using a playstyle they cant handle on their own, whining about the rest of the group if they fail and the rest of the group giving a HAMSTER about their rants.
PS. There is one situation, where I go mad. If I do a big pull, the OP follows, uses his auras, the game lags and I die. I curse the OP to myself, even though I know, that it is a game issue.
Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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myles08807Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 409Arc User
This is simple, join people who enjoy same speed (fast or slow). Problem solved.
Please to be pointing out the enhanced queue dashboard slider so I can adjust my grouping preferences between "lightspeed" and "casual, loots everything, takes time to smell the roses, etc."
Comments
What if i inv you in a group and whole group is leaving dungeon after first boss cuzz i say "Nahh...this DC suxx. He is not playing the style i like.Lets get another one"?
2. I dont care what he is doing as long as he contribute enough dps. You can go and do anything you want as long as you done your part.
3. I doubt someone will kick me out unless they have some logic problems. "Hey, this DC dps is higher than us, he cheated, not fun so lets quit this run and let him get other pugs." "OMG i dont want free AD and fast run, i want to grind slowly and enjoy the game *click leave party* "
4. Although i dont think there is another answer for this question, "Which type of teammates you want to encounter? A slacker or a competitive one?" I chose the latter, and tried to be one. How about you?
For me personally, id just want a competent player.
In that case you aren't really doing your job as a cleric of the party . You are a damage dealer, not a healer.
In that case you are not going to be behind the group but you will be up front making a mess and crying when you die.
Second of all , as we said before, it is not your place to decide what others want and how they will play.
If you feel you only want to do fast runs, without collecting loot and checking out nodes, then pick an adequate party from your guild and do so. Or alliance.. or PE chat.
Don't expect pugs to grant you wishes, We are not genies and we don't grant endless wishes.
Last but not least important, my main is a 3.3 DC. I do not do damage and am absolutely fine with it.
Not all of us want the build you have and are fine with other builds and ways of playing our character and the game in general.
And i am not going to run after anyone if he or she decides to jump into a fray , to boost their ego.
And there isn't a single person that will refuse to do a dungeon with me or kick me out of a party.
Never happened and i hope never will.
You have no right to say someone is a slacker just cos you out-damage him or her or cos they are slower then you are.
Damage is not an indication of a players value. Being Slow is not an indication of value.
And if you feel that way then you are mistaken.
Remember when this game had nice people?
Before Cryptic ramped the difficulty to 11 at mod6 and most of the adult-casuals left.
Cryptic didn't take into account that casual adult players have jobs and credit cards with big GD limits.
They listened to twitchies whines about difficulty, now this game is on life support with < 2k steam chart players and all the bait&switch and nerfs in the name of the bogus bot war to make an extra 30 cents per player isn't going to save it.
You shouldn't be giving out orders. You should be sending them requests in a polite manner. Are you forgetting that characters are controlled by someone on a keyboard on the other side of the screen?
If you really want to kill slackers, you have to kill them with kindness. Results are already obvious to you when you're flaming someone for their.....beginner's DPS, so why don't you cook up something that gives you better results instead of blaming? Don't just go turn off your brain, leave instance and go full tilt.
I'm assuming all of them are English speakers and if they don't know English or they didn't respond to you because they're using TeamSpeak (I have one PUG where all of them are in the same guild and knows English but no one responds to me), you're free to leave by dropping bb on chat.
Positive Mental Attitude, dude. Learn it. Don't be like Trick2g. Don't confuse with BiS groups (where else can you call for BiS players if not LFG and guild channel?) and PUG groups, which in every case of PUG, needs moderate heals or they'll die.
You don't know whether someone who supposedly tanks for the group runs for either heals for OP or DPS for GF.
I have a righteous DC and it's all PUG life for me before re-spec to clutch heals DC since more often than not, CWs have to go melee mode to lay out Icy Terrain for their rotation have a spike lag and dies and Divine Glow doesn't help. In PUG, expect every ping from players to be between 300 (as far as Australia) to more than a thousand (already a spike, which characters will be standing still from a good 2 seconds to the abysmal 10 minutes, which is disconnected from server).
The only dungeon that might not need heals is Elol. And that is also a very big stretch ....
Decent gear has to be earned. Be it running T1s or T2s .
How do you expect people to get it if they can not do dungeons? They have to start somewhere, don't they?
Please tell me how a little level 70, who just got to 70, and is trying to get the lowest level 70 gear is going to be able to survive any of the current dungeons without heals? With magic?
In any case that is not a point of this thread.
I agree with deathbeez and sockmunkey and what they said.
We do remember when DC was the best damage dealer out there.
Or when you did not need any heals to do dungeon, even with low level people in your freaking party.
When the righteous build was something to be admired to.
When a dc could tank a dungeon better then gf.
And yes until today with right tweaks it can be what it was if you know how to play that freaking character.
We freaking get it.
The fact is a low IL DC is not ready to keep the low IL party alive, without heals.
It is not good to be condescending. It can backfire.
Please bare in mind I have very limited editing skills, which is very evident in the video. However, please try and tell me that there wasn't more organization and teamwork going on there than in most groups, both slow groups and fast. After every run, we would sit down and discuss where we could save time, which powers we could swap out, etc. Do groups who go slowly spend this much time on trying to perfect their runs and improve their performance? No. To get runs like that, we spend hours trying new stuff and running the dungeons over and over again.
( Also my editing skills really suck so this seems fine to me!! )
To answer your question, yes they do. XD
Or to correct myself, yes we do. I think it all comes down to how you approach people.
I tend to try to be as polite as possible and if they ignore me , well, tough luck for them. They need me more then i need them.
I have 3 characters level 70 and ready to run, now leveling 2 more.
My main, cleric, sometimes really needs a break from speed runs. So i either pug or do guild / alliance slow runs.
In my exp. i had more success in explaining things ,then you did. I do not really get ignored much.
What i am trying really hard to explain here is, even the slowest group can do careful planning.
It does not matter if they are slow or are just taking their sweet time to do what they do. You get to the boss eventually.
And their value is the same as any other fast runner out there. So maybe they will not earn as much AD as you do, and maybe our planning can not be as awesome , but it still works. A random pug group does not have hours of of trying things together and running together. You basically get one shot at trying it and if people like you, they ll ask you to run again.
There is a difference, right?
It seems I may have different exp. then you do in how people react to me, maybe i am just lucky lucky.
I do know it is not the case for all people of-course but i really do not remember the last time i said something and people ignored or kicked me.
Some are just plane rude and unnecessary abrasive. But usually that sorts itself in the best possible way and no one gets offended. There is just people like that, just like in real life. If we can not finish a run i am usually the first person to volunteer my spot if people are not happy. But that is really really rare.
In any case i do see your point and do agree with your point. Choosing people who do listen to you is nothing bad.
Just kidding. I let people die , only when they really really ask for it.
Come have a picnic with me in the middle of GW den. I promise lots of fun XD
I have days when i collect greenies. Usually i warn people before hand and it may be said it is not even a normal run.
It is more of a slow, have a picnic, look at fashion items, compare companions run. Give fashion advices as well, run.
But if i want to do a fast CN run , running it 5 times in a row, 15 min each i can do it without any problems as well.
I guess what i am trying to say is.. have you seen my rabbit?
Check it out
With most players everything goes ok and there is no need for communication, except a ty at the end of the run.
Furthermore there are those 'individualists'. Dont get me wrong, everyone can play as he wants, but if your character/build is so messed up, that you and your teammates cant complete a T1 dungeon, even with a 3k+ player doing 90% of the work, you might consider taking advice from this guy after 5 failed boss fights, bc otherwise it is just wasted time.
I had a 2k+ IL CW with a cosmetic skin in the weapon slot doing 1/100th of my CWs dmg. Many GFs playing without enhanced mark or ITF, constantly losing aggro. Tanks with bad gear kiting Valindra in VT with a group of melee DDs, wondering, why there was so little dps.
I dont want everyone to use the same build, gear and rotation, but there are some things, that clearly work and somethings, that obviously dont work. If you whipe time after time, something is wrong.
You cant blame the fact, that ppl dont understand what you are writing. I played with other german players and I asked them in german, if they would try XY, who ignored me. I did share my build with russian, polish and italian players, who did not speak one word english or german. They asked for my build, I uploaded screenshots of it and we communicated via google translator.
Imo not the player doing 90% of the work, sticking with an undergeared group and offering advice, if something does not work is the snob, but the PuG player that prefers failing to taking advice.
What i want to say is, please dont burden your team and let them carry you. I can accept 1k players in PoM/ToDG or even Kessel, as long as they really put effort on their jobs. I can accept fresh people running a dungeon with me. But i cannot accept slackers or people enter waiting for you to carry them ( aka leecher ). Please be prepared for things you queued, 1.6k il will wipe in KR, so as 2k for CN. Please at least get some gear or learn to play your character but not put all hope onto other people. I built to support, not carry.
Imagine a crystal maiden or omniknight forced to carry the whole team while the anti mage, drow, sven etc was feeding. That is what i feel when i met those incompetent ones.
To make things clear: Slow but relaxing tempo etc may cause slow run, but slow run doesnt only means the player dont want to rush. The main reason i hate slow run is because of irresponsible of the player either on bad playing attitude or aiming to leech on others. Period.
Still, yes, speedruns are far more enjoyable when they're practically hacking with the controller. >:)
I have to admit, i have seen plenty of 2k or less, players trying runs for the first time and not knowing what to do.
But do have in mind they need to try it eventually. And people tend to freak out and not show their full potential.
It is normal, they are human after all. We all make mistakes and it is only when they get to 70 do they truly start to learn how to play their character in dungeons.
By doing little dungeons they can do, people tend to feel overpowered. And i am not saying it is bad. But then they pug for their first elol and bam XD They get wiped at the first boss. It tends to make people frustrated.
Especially if there is no guildies to explain things to them properly. Like : " see that really big red circle on the ground ? avoid it at all cost " X
So many times we took our little ones to CN, to try it for the first time. And people would get scared at Porcus. It takes patience, different skills should be used, rotations are important. Make a mistake and not even a scroll of mass life will save you.
But they really need to learn, you know... To them it all seems too hard at first. And some can not handle it.
That is all i wanted to say.
It is not a style I enjoy AT ALL but when done correctly I definitely respect the skill it takes to do that (in any game).
What I hate, though, is when somebody watches or hears about gameplay like that and neglects to notice the prep, skill and teamwork required for such a playstyle and then try to force PUGs to attempt to repeat the feat in the most irritating and insulting way possible.
Every group is different and every person will react differently to various behaviors. It's something that people in true leadership positions learn quickly. Too often the people described above try to "lead" their party to victory by making people wish they could kill that player instead of the monsters.
Compared to a large amount of people I go fast...but I also play smart. I don't do anything to get my team killed and try to adapt to do what is needed for the party to be successful. I try to start dungeons slow and try to judge how the party copes with enemies rather than starting full speed.
Just because some group you saw did a dungeon in X time doesn't mean this group should or even can do it at the same rate and when players get that mentality they really only make life harder on themselves; especially if the speeds are achieved by running through rooms on the main paths which not all players are willing to do or even capable of doing.
I think the problem is less that people are going fast and more that they assume everybody else should or even can do so.
Some people, like me, simply don't enjoy zerging.
Other people are not capable of zerging due to the gear they have or simply lack the playskill to do so and to permit myself one slight generalization: the players who try to force the party to go faster than they are willing or capable of going are very often those who lack gear and/or playskill themselves.
EDIT - Just to be clear this isn't a rebuttal. My opinion relates to The Fabricant's post and I felt it was worth pointing to.
If people charging forward cry about it then let them cry. I am there for teamplay and not to save some solo idiots HAMSTER.
I even had it once that we had 3 rushers who left a load of HAMSTER to kill in their wake so the GF and I just killed them along the way, taking our time and not bothering with the cries of agony of the idiots who were half the dungeon ahead of us.
Not everyone can outsprint all the HAMSTER ahead, so I stick with the slowboats. And if the sprinters get too insulting I will even take my time and make me a coffee in between just to annoy them more while they wait at another gate that needs to be group activated.
Heck I can even wait long enough to make part of them quit and find themselves a nice rush rush group. Me and the slowboats will get it finished anyways.
I have dealt with people on both ends acting this way although it is often for different reasons altogether.
There are definitely people in the world such as you described. I dealt with one for years who lacked playskill and had a bad build they refused to improve upon because the character was designed based on how their Pen and Paper character was built (more or less).
The goal of the guild for a long time was to try to get enough people geared and skilled enough to be able to carry that character/player through dungeons because having that character/player in a group was akin to not having a fifth person. In fact it was almost like only having 3.5 people because the party had to worry about keeping them alive instead of doing what they needed to do.
The extra bit of frustration was that the person never quite understood how much they hindered groups. Everytime they died or missed a swing it was the game, computer or lag's fault.
So yeah I have been there...
But being in a guild which focused on having casual gamers also meant that when pugs were used I dealt with a lot of players like I described in my previous post. Often those people didn't need to be told to swap skills or anything like you described. Often they simply refused to accept that they needed to slow down and change tactics if there were people less geared or less skilled players in the group.
There were of course quality players as well who would assess the situation and realize that they not only needed to slow down but were skilled enough to know which powers and gear would benefit the group the best...
But those were always the minority. The vast majority of PUGs would charge into rooms all alone or would continue to rely on tactics that only worked if the group had enough DPS or playskill to kill mobs fast enough which in my guild groups were simply not the case.
They did big trash pulls, died and I died trying to revive them. They left the trash, to do the next pull, so the DC and I hand to clear things up, catching up after a few seconds, bc their dps was a joke without GF and DC buffs.
I dont blame them for doing big pulls, I do the same with my CW or my GWF, but I can clear them on my own, if I dont die in a lag.
The problem are not good geared players 'forcing' others to adopt their playstyle, but ppl with bad gear trying to emulate it.
If I can handle a big pull alone, I do it. If I PuG with a lesser geared alt, I watch the first few pulls and see how the group fares, to find out, what is possible. The problem here are not ppl 'forcing' their playstyle to other players, but ppl using a playstyle they cant handle on their own, whining about the rest of the group if they fail and the rest of the group giving a HAMSTER about their rants.
PS. There is one situation, where I go mad. If I do a big pull, the OP follows, uses his auras, the game lags and I die. I curse the OP to myself, even though I know, that it is a game issue.