Communication is always the key. And I think I had not convey the message clearly with the word "unthoughful designs" but yes it does equal to a nerf, as you can see in the sentences following that line The best DCs are indeed those that practice "intelligence, creativity and experience". I think we, DCs, as a collective should go for the request/demand for feat changes to Virt. It is like I've mentioned also, very behind the other trees minus the AP. A post in the temple with a link on your suggestions on the changes that could be implemented in the Temple might help since I doubt they trudge through all these posts in this one. I'm all for the GoH changes but also all for Virt Feats rework Hope that clear things up!
My comment is not a critic. Indeed I believe we're saying the same thing.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
And in order to do what you're describing, those two players must outnumber the OP on a node. Which means that the OP's team should be capping another node, making it an even trade.
Also, since GFs are widely acknowledged as being too strong in PvP, they're not a good basis for comparison in terms of balancing OPs, unless you're trying to imply that OPs should just go from being grossly overpowered to less overpowered, but still overpowered.
So your saying that its ok to nerf pals because GFs are overpovered in PvP jeeeeez logic runs strong in you padawan.....
Yes, it does, though I surmise you did not understand what you were responding to. I will break it up for you.
1. OPs are the strongest class in PvP. They're massively overpowered. 2. GFs are too strong as well, though not nearly as much as OPs. 3. When fixing #1, using another overpowered class like #2 as a yardstick for their performance is not a good idea because that still leaves them stronger than most other classes. 4. Hence, OP performance should be compared to classes like DC, HR, SW or CW, and balancing should aim at that, not at putting them with the still overperforming classes. 5. GFs need to be toned down a bit in PvP too, though not by nearly as much as OPs do.
There you go. Hopefully that should be laid in a way that you are abe to grasp.
You are speaking about a situation which does not happen every time, while GF can do something useful almost always. Yes, immortality can be good in a few situations, but that definitely does not mean OPs will be in balance. Wait... do you mean OP is stronger in PVP than GF? Really? You should have mentioned that before, since this point of view proves you are not very... good in understanding PVP. That's my opinion though. GF is the strongest class in PVP. Well... not everywhere - paladins are good in stronghold pvp (not very popular on our server) and sometimes in gauntlgrym (even less popular), though not because of immortality - they are valued for the bubble as it can protect party members until they deal with the enemy. But in Domination and 1x1 duels.... they are nothing. I've seen pvp tournament between strongest people on our server (to which OPs were not allowed because... guess what? They are immortal but won't be able to kill their opponent) and you know what - BiS players of any class are almost as immortal as paladins AND they can deal damage. And you know, who took first two places? Yes - GF. And you know, which class is always in abusive const-parties? GF again - sometimes even two or three GF and sometimes - sometimes - there is also one OP. I don't know, maybe on Dragon the situation is different, but on Drider const-party with GFs is a must-have if you are a balance abuser. Which makes the strongest class in PVP pretty obvious.
And yes, I compare GF and protection OP because in case you didn't notice - they both being tanks perform similar functions in party. And what I mean is not that OP must be as imbalanced as GF. They must be as good as GF, which leaves us with another option... nerf GF in PVP and give OP more damage or party buffs in PVE to compensate for all these ners that turn the class into a pile of character slots for invoking.
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darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,261Arc User
@amenar is the development team reviewing the actual state of bonding stones and active companions? Thats actually trivializing the content as much as lostmauth set or bubble.
The OPs Will need something un return to be desirables in groups. I remember the GFs long time ago and the rework was fine with agro handle and ITF buffs. OPs Will need something similar in return or will be forgotten, and paladin players and fans Will be sad when nobody wants them in groups
matiagronxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 251Arc User
Those who dont like a challenge can wholeheartedly leave this game, they will do a huge favor to human intelligence. You can play other games or kill your time with a thousand other ways that dont need any challenge at all. You can just stay still at your chair and look at an empty screen, hear some music, watch a video..plenty of non-challenging ways to spend your time. Dont undermine our intelligence, pretty please. Despite the fact that its cryptic's fault in the first place cause they let this bubble monstrosity for over 6 months, trivializing everything, they corrected it at last after they fulfilled their purpose of making the game's pathetic rewards seem better cause no effort was needed. There is a glimpse of light at the tunnel we got into the last 2 years and thats the only fact that actually has a value.
Game is still in dire need of content, current content is so overplayed that makes the majority SICK of even seeing the name of any dungeon in the queue window, let alone playing it for the 1000th time. Correcting this bubble failure doesnt buy you time cryptic, there is absolutely no reason at all to play any of the current dungeons even with the difficulty upped a notch or two. CN is just covering 1 of the dozen new epic dungeons that are still missing, either new or old-revamped.
At least you have done a few steps at the right direction and give us hope again, but hope alone is not enough cause we have hoped for A LONG TIME to see actual RPG-like content. Hope slowly turns to despair, just make good use of the time you bought with mod9 and the good changes of last 2 patches.
And in order to do what you're describing, those two players must outnumber the OP on a node. Which means that the OP's team should be capping another node, making it an even trade.
Also, since GFs are widely acknowledged as being too strong in PvP, they're not a good basis for comparison in terms of balancing OPs, unless you're trying to imply that OPs should just go from being grossly overpowered to less overpowered, but still overpowered.
So your saying that its ok to nerf pals because GFs are overpovered in PvP jeeeeez logic runs strong in you padawan.....
Yes, it does, though I surmise you did not understand what you were responding to. I will break it up for you.
1. OPs are the strongest class in PvP. They're massively overpowered. 2. GFs are too strong as well, though not nearly as much as OPs. 3. When fixing #1, using another overpowered class like #2 as a yardstick for their performance is not a good idea because that still leaves them stronger than most other classes. 4. Hence, OP performance should be compared to classes like DC, HR, SW or CW, and balancing should aim at that, not at putting them with the still overperforming classes. 5. GFs need to be toned down a bit in PvP too, though not by nearly as much as OPs do.
There you go. Hopefully that should be laid in a way that you are abe to grasp.
You are speaking about a situation which does not happen every time, while GF can do something useful almost always. Yes, immortality can be good in a few situations, but that definitely does not mean OPs will be in balance. Wait... do you mean OP is stronger in PVP than GF? Really? You should have mentioned that before, since this point of view proves you are not very... good in understanding PVP. That's my opinion though. GF is the strongest class in PVP. Well... not everywhere - paladins are good in stronghold pvp (not very popular on our server) and sometimes in gauntlgrym (even less popular), though not because of immortality - they are valued for the bubble as it can protect party members until they deal with the enemy. But in Domination and 1x1 duels.... they are nothing. I've seen pvp tournament between strongest people on our server (to which OPs were not allowed because... guess what? They are immortal but won't be able to kill their opponent) and you know what - BiS players of any class are almost as immortal as paladins AND they can deal damage. And you know, who took first two places? Yes - GF. And you know, which class is always in abusive const-parties? GF again - sometimes even two or three GF and sometimes - sometimes - there is also one OP. I don't know, maybe on Dragon the situation is different, but on Drider const-party with GFs is a must-have if you are a balance abuser. Which makes the strongest class in PVP pretty obvious.
And yes, I compare GF and protection OP because in case you didn't notice - they both being tanks perform similar functions in party. And what I mean is not that OP must be as imbalanced as GF. They must be as good as GF, which leaves us with another option... nerf GF in PVP and give OP more damage or party buffs in PVE to compensate for all these ners that turn the class into a pile of character slots for invoking.
+1
Mainclass: DC
Mainchar: Mr. Shu
:cool:
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ichimaruginxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 230Arc User
Hey, I'm sorry to hear that part. But on a positive note, I hope you do like the faithful tree after trying it out. And yes, if I try to put ap gain for others on my righteous, I do spread out the encounters and also watch out for when they use their dailies and refill right after to prevent from overflow.
Gift of Faith is just amazing. Sometimes I kinda missed it when in edemo haha. Righteous is more to group buff than to personal dps increase. You will give 10% power and 25% damage increase on target to party with 3 of the feats. There's also a 5% DR buff for party in Virt Tree if you are interested instead of the 10% extra heals, it's called Have Faith. Hope the changes didn't hit you too hard
Does Gift of Faith not work in eDemo? O_o
Yes but I'm currently righteous spec, used to be Faithful^^ And wearing HP set w/o the Gift of Faith isn't a pretty sight in there haha
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
Great changes +1
Bubbldin needs to go, it makes the PvE VERY unchallenging. All contents currently there can be completed without a OP, so dont lie to yourself saying they are NEEDED, cus they are NOT. As to PvP? Its just boring and frustrating when there's 1~2 OP in the field that makes their whole team immortal. Once again, great changes!
i doubt pala is a good tank some of the powers are broken binding oath does not do the aggro part shield on tab has a delay of 1 to 2 sec (apparently it works similar to GF's in that it needs server response in place of just client response but i know from playing both that GF shield is faster = much more usable)
relentless avenger draws aggro well but most groups would object heavily in us using it as you know it pushes critters away before they converge back on pala
This is a great change for those of us that can already perma binding oath and build a bubble in six seconds. Not going to transfer as much power to the team but that will be fine.
I think im out. And not because of the nerf, basically because GF is better in every way then OP except in DMR, and not with all things being equal there is really no reason to want OPs anymore. I spent a lot of time leveling my character and some real money. I do not intend to waste any more time or money on this game if you do not even have the foresight to think how your actions effect the player base (your revenue stream). Not only did you nerf Paladins but you buffed GFs damage.
They already had better damage then PALS!!!!. Stop making classes useless. I mean seriously my 10 year old taking an introduction to game design course has sense enough to know that. If you wanted to do it right you should have changed some paladin skills to also give a buff to damage like GFs do now and buffed some of there DPS skills.
Right now I cannot think of a single reason to take a Paladin when you can have a GF after this nerf. None, so now you have a class that is not great at anything. And this is the class that you released last, that a lot of people who came in at mod 6 are playing.
That is also my concern, before it was -take a paladin to play god mode, now it is omg why should we take a paladin... buff wisdom and courage auras to be on par with what GF brings to the party and i am all in.
Please fix Zhentarim Warlock companion's skill "Arcane Warping" to the originally intended "Arcane Boost" zhentarim-warlock-companion
Here is what we need to do since we are cutting the Bubble to 1/3 (actually more) of what it was as well as nerfing other palidan items. Lets just do it for every class at once so we can see how people feel.
Reduce all GF buffs to 1/3 of what they were. and Crazy 1dailies to 1/3 time
Reduce all Pathfinder Hold durations to 1/3 of what they were.
Reduce Rogue stealth time to 1/3 of what it was and burst dps to 1/3
Reduce GWF encounter damage to 1/3 of what it is
etc. etc.
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kwsapphireMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 671Arc User
edited April 2016
I am not sure I agree that no one will ever want to have a paladin on their team again. My husband is still an excellent tank, even without perma bubble. High HP and a good amount of temp HP help keep him alive, and he still taunts enemy aggro. The disadvantage is that he feels more and more of the powers and feats available to him are utterly useless. That's a sad state for any class to be in.
Since this is a nerf focused on pve (according to devs themselves), let's not forget that GWFs can solo almost every content (all epic dungeons - even CN) with the exception of demo/edemo (maybe, i'm not sure they can't), SH's dragons (not sure they can't) and Tiamat. About OP's: This will change nothing for OPs themselves concerning their "immortality", since it is not the bubble that keep us alive (it helps alot, but it's not the life saver - it was not my bubble that kept me alive from this [Combat (Self)] Katatheo the Proud deals 1839314 (5575974) Fire Damage to you with Fire Breath.). This nerf will only hurt healers (they can't heal who is dead), OPs when it comes to find a party to do epic content - nobody will want them anymore and new players. I've created my OP to be able to do those dungeons since I wasn't able to complete them most of the time with my cw (2.2k back then). Now, most of the time I run dungeons, etc to help undergeared players to get their equipments - t1, t2, seals for dragonflight, etc. Sometimes I don't even have a key to check the final chest. Now, when i see players saying that they want more challenge and this is more than welcome bla bla bla, I call it bulls#!t. For PVE, nothing is forcing them to do it with an OP in their parties, they can make their own party and queue private - problem solved. About PVP - create a threat focused on pvp, and any changes for pvp must be applied only for pvp. You (devs) can't keep breaking the game every time you try to fix the pvp, after all this is a DnD game.
About Clerics - Again you're punishing them for things that are broken in another class. Most ppl i know would rather have a GF than a Cleric in a party, even me, because they can do better dps and have way better buffs for the whole party. I don't need ap now and I won't need it later (OP dailys are trash now, and mostly because i'll find another game when those changes come to live). Right now, ideal party is 3 dps, 1 tank (op) and 1 support (GF - better dmg, very nice buffs/debuffs). After this changes, you're going to change OP for DC, also GF will be buffed. Do you call this a balance?
My sugestion: do not try to fix something by focusing on what is broken at first. First you need to have a clear idea of what is that class' job, then you look into whatever is broken but ask yourselves, will this "fix" change this class' role? (after all this is a roleplay game) if the answer is yes, then you're doing it wrong. With all this changes, you should change remove the "protector" part from OP's name.
Hey, I'm sorry to hear that part. But on a positive note, I hope you do like the faithful tree after trying it out. And yes, if I try to put ap gain for others on my righteous, I do spread out the encounters and also watch out for when they use their dailies and refill right after to prevent from overflow.
Gift of Faith is just amazing. Sometimes I kinda missed it when in edemo haha. Righteous is more to group buff than to personal dps increase. You will give 10% power and 25% damage increase on target to party with 3 of the feats. There's also a 5% DR buff for party in Virt Tree if you are interested instead of the 10% extra heals, it's called Have Faith. Hope the changes didn't hit you too hard
Does Gift of Faith not work in eDemo? O_o
There's 10 people in e-demo. The bubble protects 4+OP. And the 4 aren't guaranteed to come from his own party. The 4 also aren't guaranteed to be people not already under a bubble effect. You can be protected by multiple bubbles at the same time. It's just a random 4 people in a range.
Divine Protector: Duration reduced to 3 seconds plus 1 second per additional rank (6 second max, down from 20 second max).
Divine Protector: Now reduces all damage you take while active by 50%, down from 80%.
Heroism: Duration reduced to 4 seconds plus 2 seconds per additional rank (10 second max, down from 20 second max).
Shield of Faith: Duration reduced to 6 seconds plus 2 seconds per additional rank (12 second max, down from 24 second max).
Shield of Faith: Now decreases incoming damage by 30% (down from 50%) and increases healing taken by 30% (up from 20%).
Aura of Vengeance: The damage proc from this Class Feature no longer counts as At-Will damage.
Binding Oath: Modified tooltip wording slightly to be more succinct and understandable.
Binding Oath: The damage dealt to other targets at the end of the duration can no longer exceed the Max HP of the Paladin.
Feats: Echoes of Light: This effect can now only occur once every 15 seconds. The proc chance no longer secretly increases if you are hitting multiple targets. The proc chance has been increased from 1/2/3/4/5% to 2/4/6/8/10%.
Oathbound Paladins will no longer receive a 20% damage buff for 1 second every 20 seconds.
Devoted Cleric
Feats: Gift of Haste: Now grants AP over 5 seconds, instead of instantly. If you are already affected by Gift of Haste, having it applied to you again will refresh the duration.
Feats: Gift of Haste: Now places a buff icon on the recipient, instead of popping up combat floating text with every application.
Feats: Gift of Haste: When casting Healing Word, Gift of Haste no longers fail to apply to the caster in certain circumstances.
Healing Word: The targeting of this power is now more reliable on angled terrain.
Healing Word: Buff tooltip now accurately reflects what the power does when applied in Divinity mode.
Divine Glow: Modified tooltip wording slightly to be more succinct. Also added tooltip text to the buffs and debuffs.
Divine Glow: No longer incorrectly states that the effect stacks 3 times when cast in Divinity mode.
You want nerf Palladin to be a rag in game.. Yes, my main is OP and i like protect ppl in my pt, if you really need nerf, dont nerf 99% skills for prot to 30-40%, so if bubble now have 20s you want 6s, get only 12-15s..
You guys saying that the bubble needed to go... maybe? And I say maybe coz all the new level 70s have few options to complete a dungeon now that is supposedly made for them. Please, explain to me how a group of randoms level 70 with 1.8k IL can complete ELOL without bubble or with a nerfed astral shield that won't save any of them from a one-shot? Like many have said, you can't heal when they are dead. For the ones asking for a challenge, you should've stopped asking for an OP's bubble to tank you then, instead of asking for one and then complain it was too easy, that makes no sense, everyone played the game their own way and if you can't stand that, then grab a bunch of friends and do it your own way.
With this changes you basically killed the solo q, the Protection OP brings absolutely anything to the table that could be considered even slightly better than any GF. People wouldn't want to run a 30 min dungeon only for the shxtty rewards that await them. Unless you do edemo with your guildies, you will never get gold, the green and blue dragons will be so hard to kill and only to get up to 3 miserable fangs. A nerf to the bubble may be needed, but everything else was out of necessity, now we OPs are basically a bunch of underleveled, undergeared, low dmg-not as good buffs GFs.
Like someone said in another post, this games 'fixes' and 'balance' is always against the players. What's next?! Let's balance the Trapper HR coz its doing more dmg and has more control than the Archery and Combat!! Balance the other 2?? Why?! This way we only shxt on the Trapper...
Comments
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Wait... do you mean OP is stronger in PVP than GF? Really? You should have mentioned that before, since this point of view proves you are not very... good in understanding PVP. That's my opinion though.
GF is the strongest class in PVP. Well... not everywhere - paladins are good in stronghold pvp (not very popular on our server) and sometimes in gauntlgrym (even less popular), though not because of immortality - they are valued for the bubble as it can protect party members until they deal with the enemy. But in Domination and 1x1 duels.... they are nothing. I've seen pvp tournament between strongest people on our server (to which OPs were not allowed because... guess what? They are immortal but won't be able to kill their opponent) and you know what - BiS players of any class are almost as immortal as paladins AND they can deal damage. And you know, who took first two places? Yes - GF. And you know, which class is always in abusive const-parties? GF again - sometimes even two or three GF and sometimes - sometimes - there is also one OP. I don't know, maybe on Dragon the situation is different, but on Drider const-party with GFs is a must-have if you are a balance abuser. Which makes the strongest class in PVP pretty obvious.
And yes, I compare GF and protection OP because in case you didn't notice - they both being tanks perform similar functions in party. And what I mean is not that OP must be as imbalanced as GF. They must be as good as GF, which leaves us with another option... nerf GF in PVP and give OP more damage or party buffs in PVE to compensate for all these ners that turn the class into a pile of character slots for invoking.
The OPs Will need something un return to be desirables in groups. I remember the GFs long time ago and the rework was fine with agro handle and ITF buffs. OPs Will need something similar in return or will be forgotten, and paladin players and fans Will be sad when nobody wants them in groups
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
Game is still in dire need of content, current content is so overplayed that makes the majority SICK of even seeing the name of any dungeon in the queue window, let alone playing it for the 1000th time. Correcting this bubble failure doesnt buy you time cryptic, there is absolutely no reason at all to play any of the current dungeons even with the difficulty upped a notch or two. CN is just covering 1 of the dozen new epic dungeons that are still missing, either new or old-revamped.
At least you have done a few steps at the right direction and give us hope again, but hope alone is not enough cause we have hoped for A LONG TIME to see actual RPG-like content. Hope slowly turns to despair, just make good use of the time you bought with mod9 and the good changes of last 2 patches.
Mainchar: Mr. Shu
:cool:
Join Now! - Infernal Paragons , The Infernal Alliance
Bubbldin needs to go, it makes the PvE VERY unchallenging. All contents currently there can be completed without a OP, so dont lie to yourself saying they are NEEDED, cus they are NOT. As to PvP? Its just boring and frustrating when there's 1~2 OP in the field that makes their whole team immortal. Once again, great changes!
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
i doubt pala is a good tank
some of the powers are broken
binding oath does not do the aggro part
shield on tab has a delay of 1 to 2 sec
(apparently it works similar to GF's
in that it needs server response in place of just client response
but i know from playing both
that GF shield is faster = much more usable)
relentless avenger draws aggro well
but most groups would object heavily
in us using it
as you know it pushes critters away
before they converge back on pala
They already had better damage then PALS!!!!. Stop making classes useless. I mean seriously my 10 year old taking an introduction to game design course has sense enough to know that. If you wanted to do it right you should have changed some paladin skills to also give a buff to damage like GFs do now and buffed some of there DPS skills.
Right now I cannot think of a single reason to take a Paladin when you can have a GF after this nerf. None, so now you have a class that is not great at anything. And this is the class that you released last, that a lot of people who came in at mod 6 are playing.
zhentarim-warlock-companion
Pure -> Transcendent Plague Fire weapon enchantment giving 80damge/20 seconds for 500k+ AD is a joke.
plague-fire-weapon-enchant-r11-vs-r12
Ah hah, of course. Sorry, apparently I had a brain HAMSTER. >_>
Since this is a nerf focused on pve (according to devs themselves), let's not forget that GWFs can solo almost every content (all epic dungeons - even CN) with the exception of demo/edemo (maybe, i'm not sure they can't), SH's dragons (not sure they can't) and Tiamat.
About OP's: This will change nothing for OPs themselves concerning their "immortality", since it is not the bubble that keep us alive (it helps alot, but it's not the life saver - it was not my bubble that kept me alive from this [Combat (Self)] Katatheo the Proud deals 1839314 (5575974) Fire Damage to you with Fire Breath.). This nerf will only hurt healers (they can't heal who is dead), OPs when it comes to find a party to do epic content - nobody will want them anymore and new players. I've created my OP to be able to do those dungeons since I wasn't able to complete them most of the time with my cw (2.2k back then). Now, most of the time I run dungeons, etc to help undergeared players to get their equipments - t1, t2, seals for dragonflight, etc. Sometimes I don't even have a key to check the final chest.
Now, when i see players saying that they want more challenge and this is more than welcome bla bla bla, I call it bulls#!t. For PVE, nothing is forcing them to do it with an OP in their parties, they can make their own party and queue private - problem solved.
About PVP - create a threat focused on pvp, and any changes for pvp must be applied only for pvp. You (devs) can't keep breaking the game every time you try to fix the pvp, after all this is a DnD game.
About Clerics - Again you're punishing them for things that are broken in another class.
Most ppl i know would rather have a GF than a Cleric in a party, even me, because they can do better dps and have way better buffs for the whole party. I don't need ap now and I won't need it later (OP dailys are trash now, and mostly because i'll find another game when those changes come to live).
Right now, ideal party is 3 dps, 1 tank (op) and 1 support (GF - better dmg, very nice buffs/debuffs). After this changes, you're going to change OP for DC, also GF will be buffed. Do you call this a balance?
My sugestion: do not try to fix something by focusing on what is broken at first. First you need to have a clear idea of what is that class' job, then you look into whatever is broken but ask yourselves, will this "fix" change this class' role? (after all this is a roleplay game) if the answer is yes, then you're doing it wrong. With all this changes, you should change remove the "protector" part from OP's name.
With this changes you basically killed the solo q, the Protection OP brings absolutely anything to the table that could be considered even slightly better than any GF. People wouldn't want to run a 30 min dungeon only for the shxtty rewards that await them. Unless you do edemo with your guildies, you will never get gold, the green and blue dragons will be so hard to kill and only to get up to 3 miserable fangs. A nerf to the bubble may be needed, but everything else was out of necessity, now we OPs are basically a bunch of underleveled, undergeared, low dmg-not as good buffs GFs.
Like someone said in another post, this games 'fixes' and 'balance' is always against the players. What's next?! Let's balance the Trapper HR coz its doing more dmg and has more control than the Archery and Combat!! Balance the other 2?? Why?! This way we only shxt on the Trapper...