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The Lack of Epic Content - More Than Meets the Eye
aimeesellers
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 342 Arc User
With the recent addition of Strongholds, and the associated bonuses and boons... it is becoming more and more apparent there is a serious lack of Epic Content to support the End Game Player Base. Most of us have known this for some time now.
The implementation of Mod 6 stripped away many viable dungeons, which as far as many of us can tell, only needed a retuning to be in alignment with the new stat and power structure that also came along with Mod 6. Throne of Idris, Pirate King, Mad Dragon, Karrandaux, Frozen Heart, Cloak Tower, Spellplague, Dread Vault, Castle Never, Fardelvers, and the Dwarf King... 12 dungeons... twice what remains today... all gone in one fell swoop.
On April 22nd of this year... Scott Shicoff announced they would be looking into... among other things... the dungeons that were removed. Since that time, we have heard nothing about when, or if those dungeons will be returning. Why? Yes... I know that the devs have a lot on their plates. Mod 6 broke many things. Mod 7... while at first glance appears to be a shining achievement... has issues of its own as well. PvP is more unbalanced and broken than ever. The endless grind for insane amounts of resources needed for upgrades has gotten worse. And character balance is at an all time imbalance. Not to mention Mod 8 is on the near horizon.
But before we get too much farther down the road here... a serious look at reinstating the old dungeons is needed. If an list of reasons is needed... here are just a few I have come up with:
1) Bored Epic Player Base - The end game players are running out of anything to do besides grind. It is getting old... fast.
2) Lackluster Gear - The current Alliance gear drops are useless except for salvage to upper end players. With the reinstatement of the old dungeons, gear specific to those dungeons should be put into them. Keep the same bound to account setup as the Alliance sets... but change the stats up so players have more choices on what to use.
3) Lack of Variety - Running the same dungeons over and over and over again is monotonous.
4) Unfinished Storylines - The older dungeons were tied to the other storylines.. which now just... end. The lack of them makes the whole game seem unfinished and just cobbled together.
I see no reason the old dungeons cannot be added back into the game... and updated to be in line with the current power and gear structure. Some could even be set up as "Tier 3" dungeons... making them even more of a challenge than the T2's we have now. Which leads me to...
CASTLE NEVER... Probably the most missed of the removed dungeons. It was a true fight from start to finish. No long empty hallways like Gray Wolf Den... or Cragmire. It was a blood bath from beginning to end. Every corner held mobs of powerful monsters. It was beautifully crafted... and a joy to play through.
Every player that reaches level 70 is eventually going to run into the roadblock of... "What now?"... with the lack of content we have. There should have been at least one epic dungeon and epic skirmish tied to Elemental Evil... but that ball was dropped, (along with a whole bunch of other things in Mod 6) and I dont see anyone scrambling to pick it up now.
So I ask... when will we see the return of these? Especially Castle Never? Scott stated this was going to be addressed... and that was over 6 months ago. I think we have waited long enough for an answer.
Give your end game players what they want. More playable content. You have it... just put it back in.
The implementation of Mod 6 stripped away many viable dungeons, which as far as many of us can tell, only needed a retuning to be in alignment with the new stat and power structure that also came along with Mod 6. Throne of Idris, Pirate King, Mad Dragon, Karrandaux, Frozen Heart, Cloak Tower, Spellplague, Dread Vault, Castle Never, Fardelvers, and the Dwarf King... 12 dungeons... twice what remains today... all gone in one fell swoop.
On April 22nd of this year... Scott Shicoff announced they would be looking into... among other things... the dungeons that were removed. Since that time, we have heard nothing about when, or if those dungeons will be returning. Why? Yes... I know that the devs have a lot on their plates. Mod 6 broke many things. Mod 7... while at first glance appears to be a shining achievement... has issues of its own as well. PvP is more unbalanced and broken than ever. The endless grind for insane amounts of resources needed for upgrades has gotten worse. And character balance is at an all time imbalance. Not to mention Mod 8 is on the near horizon.
But before we get too much farther down the road here... a serious look at reinstating the old dungeons is needed. If an list of reasons is needed... here are just a few I have come up with:
1) Bored Epic Player Base - The end game players are running out of anything to do besides grind. It is getting old... fast.
2) Lackluster Gear - The current Alliance gear drops are useless except for salvage to upper end players. With the reinstatement of the old dungeons, gear specific to those dungeons should be put into them. Keep the same bound to account setup as the Alliance sets... but change the stats up so players have more choices on what to use.
3) Lack of Variety - Running the same dungeons over and over and over again is monotonous.
4) Unfinished Storylines - The older dungeons were tied to the other storylines.. which now just... end. The lack of them makes the whole game seem unfinished and just cobbled together.
I see no reason the old dungeons cannot be added back into the game... and updated to be in line with the current power and gear structure. Some could even be set up as "Tier 3" dungeons... making them even more of a challenge than the T2's we have now. Which leads me to...
CASTLE NEVER... Probably the most missed of the removed dungeons. It was a true fight from start to finish. No long empty hallways like Gray Wolf Den... or Cragmire. It was a blood bath from beginning to end. Every corner held mobs of powerful monsters. It was beautifully crafted... and a joy to play through.
Every player that reaches level 70 is eventually going to run into the roadblock of... "What now?"... with the lack of content we have. There should have been at least one epic dungeon and epic skirmish tied to Elemental Evil... but that ball was dropped, (along with a whole bunch of other things in Mod 6) and I dont see anyone scrambling to pick it up now.
So I ask... when will we see the return of these? Especially Castle Never? Scott stated this was going to be addressed... and that was over 6 months ago. I think we have waited long enough for an answer.
Give your end game players what they want. More playable content. You have it... just put it back in.
A'Mie Stormshield (GF) / A'Mie Stormshard (CW)
Play Legit or Quit
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
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Strongholds added some gear and boons to the game, but as far as playable content, it has added more Heroic Encounters and one new PvP mode. Much of what we do daily for the stronghold is to re-run old content. So, here is what Mod 7 content is to me ....
1 - Show up at the stronghold and pick up dailys
2 - Run the Daily dungeon(s) for Astral Diamonds and Dungeoneering shards
3 - Do 5 Heroic encounters for my 400 influence
4 - Maybe go run a campaign area or run an old skirmish for Astral Diamonds
None of it is really new content, but it's what we need to do to get Astral Diamonds and to advance our stronghold.
More variety would be VERY welcome. A few more dungeons (please bring them back! Especially Castle Never!). More gear sets, some with stats that actually make sense for the classes wearing them (Whose idea was it to build the Warlock around lifesteal, then to leave it off all the PvE sets for Warlocks?). Give SWs Lifesteal, Deflection for TRs and HRs .. make the sets make sense, not be generic.
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
If the Devs pay attention to these posts, please can you look at reinstating previous dungeons? I believe they would generate much appreciation, if not more, from the player-base than just a new Mod, and fears of more grind and unbalancing.
You've just created more work for yourselves without providing new revenue producing content and now you are stuck in a state where you are constantly meddling which has frankly been disastrous.
The whole selling point of mod 7 lasted like a week before you broke it, and it's a stretch to say it ever worked right.
put the leveling dungeons back in intact. all you'll need to do is flag anything that said guardian fighter to guardian figther and pali. that should take all of 1 hour. you dont need to revamp them to be easier. or more streamlined. people want to play in the dungeons. heck put the old cragmire, tos, and gwd back in. rather than these completely linear snorefests we have now.
people want to play in dungeons. i will say it one more time so it sinks in. people want to play in dungeons.
It's well known they are hugely under-staffed. The developers they do have are not experts on the game engine and are under huge time constraints. Mod 6 was just rehashed maps and a new class which has the same animations as a guardian fighter. New powers given to each class are just re-hashed animations from other classes too. I wouldn't be surprised if the next class introduced uses the same animation another class already has.
The other upcoming game that will likely be the final nail in NWO's coffin is Black Desert which should be heading into Beta for NA/Euro regions soon. Instead of trying to get the attention of devs who don't listen to you here, you might want to look these two games up, which have active communities already and are looking to players to help steer their direction.
I won't be satisfy with only the old ones coming back.
black desert is still far off.
check also wildstar which is right around the corner.
The headstart experience was so bad, I decided to get a refund. I haven't been so disappointed in a video game since ... uhhh, well, Neverwinter, come to think of it.
The T1's can be bullied with enough dps, and really eLoL, I never considered a dungeon. It's a jacked up skirmish. Pug groups have a fair chance at winning them even if they do not all play their roles and collaborate as a team. Rarely will a pug group stick together and try to problem solve a dungeon, at least that is what I've found. Trying to beat epic DV, giving up, going back and then finally winning it, felt like a great accomplishment. Similar for CN. You had to try different methods, powers and group mixes, and it taught you the game. Random entry into Tiamat with 5 mins to prep 25 (if you get a full instance) does not teach you the game. It may eventually teach you how to contribute in Tiamat, but ugh, once you get that last boon why the hell would you ever go back!?
Dropping set bonuses may have worked well for the devs, but they removed part of the treasure hunt that dungeon crawls were. Everyone (well most I think) like a treasure hunt. The feeling of finally getting your chosen head piece after running epic SP 20 plus times was thrilling, and gave you a reason to create alts to play, not just for leadership.
All of these experiences running together in a group, built teams, built friendships and loyalty for the game. Cryptic may not want loyalty for the game. I don't know, it seems at times they prefer churn and new players who may drop 20 bucks then leave. It certainly seems like it at times. I hope that's not the case. This game in it's current state is pushing it by including "dungeons" in it's D n D brand. I still have friends here. Many have left, but really I think we all know we are just pining for the game to be as fun as it once was. Bringing back those dungeons would at least give us some hope.
*Shameless off topic plug*: For the love of the game, ditch the AD costs in the stronghold. The GMoP change is excellent for personal advancement, but the AD sink in there is killing it on a larger scale now, not just for individuals.
Module 1 - New skirmish (Master of the hunt), new dungeon (Malabog's Castle)
Module 2 - New Skirmish (Dread Legion), new dungeon (Valindra's Tower)
Module 3 - Heroic Encounters, new skirmish (Kessels Retreat)
Module 4 - More Heroic Encounters, New skirmish (Shores of Turrin), New Dungeon (Lair of Lostmauth)
Module 5 - Tiamat, yet more heroic encounters
Module 6 - Even more heroic encounters, and many dungeons removed
Module 7 - Stronghold Heroic encounters
If this continues Mod 8 will be some campaign quests and an endless series of Heroic Encounters. As others have pointed out this is DUNGEONS and Dragons ... we need more dungeons.
Heroic Encounters are NOT content, they are a filler for a lack of real content.
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
Personally... I am not looking forward to Mod 8 after these last two. I would rather see them put "Underdark" on the shelf, bring back the content that was taken from us, and fix the issues that have resulted from the last two modules.
And if I even hear talk of another new class while the Paladin is still stomping around in uber mode... I think I will throw up.
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
Tabatha@rotters // Scourge Warlock // Co Leader // Civil Anarchy
We are looking for non elitist guilds to join our alliance.
I believe there is a NDA in place and that will not be lifted. They are allowed to comment when they can comment. When the CMs agree with a lot of what is being posted right now... says a lot... as well.
I love this game, as much as I love Skyrim... and I will probably be here as it sinks... but the HAMSTER has to stop.
If you want us to spend more money... guess what makes that happen? Customer satisfaction.
I was the General Manager of a store that was ALL about Customer Service and making the customer feel at home in the store. I trained every employee how to do exactly that. We had people spend $1000 on their first trip to the store... and we did not sell expensive mass consumer products. Those people loved the store so much they would come in weekly to see what was new... or even chat with the employees. These same people would tell their friends about the store and the store was featured in numerous photo shoots, a few different local news shows and a ton of articles including one in the Huffington Post and both local papers.
That was all within the first 6 months of opening. Our competition hated us and often tried to copy us... but failed. One of these stores even had the same items we sold... and more... and they were losing money. They even came in during our first days and took a lot of pictures... and opened a carbon copy of our store a month later.
Why did they fail? Why would they be losing money and we were making money?
They had no idea how to make the customer feel at home. Much of our competition folded before we had been in business a year... because they could not compete with what we offered. When you offer employees who listen and care... you will never have competition.
If Cryptic would focus on customer satisfaction... the rest will fall into place. You want players to spend money on the new things you are selling? Stop forcing them to buy it.
Diplomacy is the art of getting what you want... and making the other party think it was their idea to give you everything you wanted. That is the same thing with Customer Service. Make us support you, by supporting US. At this point you have a lot of crow to eat and feathers to unruffle.
I don't like the fact that they removed dungeons, but for all the complaints about them recycling content, I don't see what good spending time to revamp the old dungeons does.
The question, IMO, is why they can't just re-introduce all or most of the previous dungeons, just scaled up to level 70 for their epic versions. Adjusting the reward tables shouldn't be too difficult or time consuming, and they can also go back and tweak them when time permits.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Secondly yes, I would like to see at least 3 more dungeons in next mod. Maybe 2 more epic skirmish.
Join the Greycloaks
Ana-GWF SM Destroyer | Farseer-CW MoF Renegade | Leon-GF SM Tactician
Adrik Battlefate-DC DO Virtuous | Cassi Woodsheart-HR PF Trapper
Removing the dungeons sucked...but revamping CN would just be a huge step backward...
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
Revamping CN would be a great addition... and there was no reason at all for removing it... or any of the older dungeons for that matter. They took 60% of the game content away from us, and have replaced it with what? Heroic encounters? Dragonflight? That barely comes close to touching what we lost.
As for CN itself... read these forums. It is the most requested of the old ones to come back. Everyone is entitled to their opinion... everyone had favorite dungeons. CN may not have been yours.... but for what seems to be the majority here... it was theirs.
That aside... the real issue here is LACK OF CONTENT. They TOOK 12 dungeons away... and replaced them with NOTHING. HE's are not content... its filler. With Mod 8 we will be lucky to see one dungeon, and maybe a skirmish out of it... MAYBE.
We can bicker back and forth until the cows come home about which dungeon was better than that dungeon... but it all comes down to removed, and un-replaced content. Content that provided variety, and fun to all of us.
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
meanwhile we're at -9 dungeons so where are the 3 new ones to replace those. putting the old dungeons back would take very very little effort. that cryptic can not supply that effort is very telling about the game. what was a huge step backwards was making everything a purely linear snore fest. yes im against recycling content. that doesnt mean im not against taking content away. they promised us the old dungeons would come back. 5+ months is plenty of time to have waited for them. there's plenty of interns at UC that would love to pad their resume working on this for free or nearly free. the only thing stopping them from doing so is a complete disregard for the players.
edit: i would ask you to stop making excuses for them and let them acutally respond to this for once. soon doesn't mean 5 months. then again changing the prices on gmops somehow broke sh pvp. so go figure.
Run a contest for players to create a new dungeon. Devote a Cryptic intern to review them to make sure they're of the desired length, and to ensure they contain no cheats or anything. Take the winning submission and implement it as an official dungeon. Give the winner some nice incentive - like maybe a unique legendary mount, (you could easily recolor some existing mount, just upped to a legendary speed rating - BtA). You'd now be able to generate new content with little effort required on Cryptic's part, and you'd be able to really see what the playerbase has to offer. I'd even go so far as to add an NPC version of the creator's character in the entrance to the dungeon, to greet players.
You could put in certain restrictions, in order to avoid people who would just spam the contest with submissions - like perhaps you need to fill out a rather lengthy form in order to qualify. Heck, the devs could even set certain parameters - like maybe you need to use certain enemies or a particular tileset.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums