test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
[PvP] Showing some love for Archery...
Without further ado, without any explanations or introductions let's just jump in to the discussion.
1. Problems with Archery
■ Lack of Survival and Damage
For the most popular and viable path of Trapper, while severely lacking in damage, the survival and offense is rolled up into a singular function stemming from its CCs -- to disrupt constantly, denying enemy action, and stacking up small bits of damage constantly until the target is dead. For the Combat path, it still retains some of its classic traits of outlasting the other guy through constant LS, although in mod6 the changes with LS seems to have hit hard and the path is no longer considered as viable as early~mid mod5 days.
Then comes Archery. Yes. Nobody will doubt that Archery severely lacks in survival. It's not oriented towards "outlasting" as Combat is, nor can it continiously disrupt the others and constantly deal one-sided damage as the Trapper can. But when it comes to damage, some HR players will raise an eyebrow and say, "Wut?? Archery has the highest burst damage of all!"
Yes, it is true. When you go over the specs, some Archery does have higher singular damage value than the other two paths. However, the problem is that the lack of survival makes an Archer's lifespan very short in actual combat. You don't deal any damage when you are dead. This means, despite how Archery looks very high DPS in theory, in practicality the DPS is low.
■ Shaky Role in PvP
Now, having extensively experimented with Archery HR builds for PvP (still experimenting), I must say this is probably the most frustrating time I've ever had in NW PvP.
As it is there is no conventional concept of NW PvP combat that works with Archery. It doesn't work when you're among a team with team builds. It doesn't work if you try to solo capture/disrupt enemy nodes. You can't do jacksheet when you face a strong melee class with gapclosers, and you can't do jacksheet if you meet strong ranged classes with ranged CCs.
The only thing that works, so far, as I've found out, is range and stealth.
Range is the only defense you have, and thus the only thing that has worked so far is the "sniper mentality." This is somewhat interesting in that this is a reference to real world military snipers, rather than the fantasized ones. Many newbie HRs like to stand at high grond, atop pillars and such and do the "sniper" bit, except they stand there, plink a few good shots, and then get cornered and slaughtered -- much like what happens with real snipers in the real world.
In the real world, snipers are all about stealth -- meaning here not the systematic stealth mechanic, but how you select a target and get ready to hit him unknowingly. Then you attempt the attack, and then whether you fail or succeed you move. Once a position is compromised, if the sniper doesn't take immediate action for self defense, you can have the world's best crackshot as the sniper and it doesn't matter -- he's dead... and yes, this is what I've been feeling for the past month as I've failed countless times with Archery HR builds.
What this means, is that to make an Archery HR work in NW PvP, you have none of the great and useful defensive tactics the other paths have, so you have to provide it yourself, with just your brains. I must admit this is oddly satisfactory when it works, but it requires so much discipline in playing that it gives you a headache. For example, the amount of headache required when a domination match begins in Hotenow;
● when approaching the mid node your primary targets are always the squishier, easier targets
● you always attack from near-maximum range of 81' ~ 92' (Aspect of the Falcon) never closer
● even in that chaotic big fight, you must keep the look out for any ranged enemies
● once you see any ranged enemies, immediately change your position to pull out of his max range
● if things look bad, think fast. If it's not gonna work, just bold, don't look back
● if things look good, consider switching positions to atop the pillars for additional fire support
What do you see when you see the above Rules of Survival I've setup with Archery HRs?
I know exactly what you experienced players see. This is a classic newbie way of playing HR. A shocker, isn't it? Yeah, when you look at newbie HR players, they do exactly the above. When I see newbie HR players I tell them exactly not to do the above. Fighting outside the node... fighting from pillars... plinking away from max range... none of this helps with node taking. All it does is present your other guys fighting either in front of you, or under your pillar, as a primary target of focus, and gets them killed faster.
And through playing Archery HR, I have learned that this... is actually the only way to make it work.
Fighting like how a newbie HR player fights, except with much higher efficiency, aggression, and also discipline. Newbies fight like this but don't do any real damage with it, and they also get caught and die easily.
That means, to make an Archery HR work in PvP, which doesn't have any other survival tools than just the distance between you and the other guy, and the element of surprise, you basically play like how a newbie plays... but have to try to make it really count, so that:
...
Now, as mentioned, this probably raises a lot of skepticism from anyone who reads it because it goes against the conventional PvP rule of thumb. Like mentioned only newbie HRs fight like that, and for someone with actual experience to fight in that manner is like demanding a leap of faith from a cliff.
Simply acknowledging that you are going to lose any 1v1 situation and thus running away the moment someone's gaze falls on you... not fighting down there on the node with your friends... using your teammates as meatshields and bait to land your attacks... and then when you're sure they cannot win the fight on the node, just leaving them there and retreating alone... spending long time moving around between "sniping spots"... no PvP player does this in NW once they become experienced.
This, is what I mean by "shaky role."
In my extensive testings, I did find out that with a certain amount of confidence, this can work if the price of all that nubby thing you have to do above actually does pay off. When this actually works, and you help with removing enemy key players within a matter of seconds, or dragging around the 2 enemy tanks fixated on you all over the map while your teams pushes other nodes. This works when the intent behind these actions work. BUT when it doesn't work, then the entire Archery way of fighting loses all meaning. Its role is just gone, and you're nothing but deadweight to the team.
2. What does Archery need for PvP?
In other words, for Archery to work, then it must be guaranteed it's prime role as an absolutely powerful glass cannon.
Like said, you spend more than 90% of the time moving around for defense. Only about 10% of the time spent in PvP you attack. This means, for Archery to work, the amount of damage this path can put up in that 10% of the time should be threatening enough to any adversary in PvP, and if for any reason the enemy just leaves the Archery HR alone to free-deal his attacks with impunity it would mean total annihilation.
The Archery path currently, IMO, does have higher damage than the other paths, but it doesn't have enough damage to be able to realize the ideal as explained above.
Personally, I've accepted the fact that Archery HRs are basically the "artillery", the "glass cannon". So all the time I spend running around, hiding, escaping, repositioning -- basically all the time I spend "doing the newbie thing" and not helping with direct node capture, I accept it as being absolutely necessary for the Archer to be viable in PvP. This would probably become the balancing factor of this path -- extremely weak in any situations that forces a direct confrontation and therefore, a lot of time spent running away.
But then, in turn, I expect this path to be really able to put up that massively threatening amounts of damage once that 10% of the time comes, and if I am left to unleash attacks freely, every target in my line of sight, whether it be DCs or GFs or OPs, should feel SEVERELY THREATENED.
Archery HRs need this amount of damage to work in PvP, and it currently does not have it.
3. Suggestion
In that sense, unlike how many people suggest in adding more defenses or utilities to Archery (which, IMO, would probably make the path bland and uninteresting), I would request to the devs to not add any of such.
I would like to ask the devs to leave all the flaws of this path as it is, and simply strengthen the one good feature of Archery EVEN MOAR!. Yes, it is weak in defense. Yes, it's not gonna be able to 1v1 anything since it lacks so much in utility. But then, if the player, can handle this "glass cannon" well enough then by golly, let it be the cannon it is -- the artillery of NW PvP field. Immense and inspiring levels of damage, strong enough to threaten DCs or OPs or GFs even, and constantly make them look above to see if there's an Archer somewhere instead of just ignoring them like they currently do, while the Archer plinks ineffective attacks to the horde of tanks and healers down there.
That is what i want to ask for the Archery path for the HR.
1. Problems with Archery
■ Lack of Survival and Damage
For the most popular and viable path of Trapper, while severely lacking in damage, the survival and offense is rolled up into a singular function stemming from its CCs -- to disrupt constantly, denying enemy action, and stacking up small bits of damage constantly until the target is dead. For the Combat path, it still retains some of its classic traits of outlasting the other guy through constant LS, although in mod6 the changes with LS seems to have hit hard and the path is no longer considered as viable as early~mid mod5 days.
Then comes Archery. Yes. Nobody will doubt that Archery severely lacks in survival. It's not oriented towards "outlasting" as Combat is, nor can it continiously disrupt the others and constantly deal one-sided damage as the Trapper can. But when it comes to damage, some HR players will raise an eyebrow and say, "Wut?? Archery has the highest burst damage of all!"
Yes, it is true. When you go over the specs, some Archery does have higher singular damage value than the other two paths. However, the problem is that the lack of survival makes an Archer's lifespan very short in actual combat. You don't deal any damage when you are dead. This means, despite how Archery looks very high DPS in theory, in practicality the DPS is low.
■ Shaky Role in PvP
Now, having extensively experimented with Archery HR builds for PvP (still experimenting), I must say this is probably the most frustrating time I've ever had in NW PvP.
As it is there is no conventional concept of NW PvP combat that works with Archery. It doesn't work when you're among a team with team builds. It doesn't work if you try to solo capture/disrupt enemy nodes. You can't do jacksheet when you face a strong melee class with gapclosers, and you can't do jacksheet if you meet strong ranged classes with ranged CCs.
The only thing that works, so far, as I've found out, is range and stealth.
Range is the only defense you have, and thus the only thing that has worked so far is the "sniper mentality." This is somewhat interesting in that this is a reference to real world military snipers, rather than the fantasized ones. Many newbie HRs like to stand at high grond, atop pillars and such and do the "sniper" bit, except they stand there, plink a few good shots, and then get cornered and slaughtered -- much like what happens with real snipers in the real world.
In the real world, snipers are all about stealth -- meaning here not the systematic stealth mechanic, but how you select a target and get ready to hit him unknowingly. Then you attempt the attack, and then whether you fail or succeed you move. Once a position is compromised, if the sniper doesn't take immediate action for self defense, you can have the world's best crackshot as the sniper and it doesn't matter -- he's dead... and yes, this is what I've been feeling for the past month as I've failed countless times with Archery HR builds.
What this means, is that to make an Archery HR work in NW PvP, you have none of the great and useful defensive tactics the other paths have, so you have to provide it yourself, with just your brains. I must admit this is oddly satisfactory when it works, but it requires so much discipline in playing that it gives you a headache. For example, the amount of headache required when a domination match begins in Hotenow;
● when approaching the mid node your primary targets are always the squishier, easier targets
● you always attack from near-maximum range of 81' ~ 92' (Aspect of the Falcon) never closer
● even in that chaotic big fight, you must keep the look out for any ranged enemies
● once you see any ranged enemies, immediately change your position to pull out of his max range
● if things look bad, think fast. If it's not gonna work, just bold, don't look back
● if things look good, consider switching positions to atop the pillars for additional fire support
What do you see when you see the above Rules of Survival I've setup with Archery HRs?
I know exactly what you experienced players see. This is a classic newbie way of playing HR. A shocker, isn't it? Yeah, when you look at newbie HR players, they do exactly the above. When I see newbie HR players I tell them exactly not to do the above. Fighting outside the node... fighting from pillars... plinking away from max range... none of this helps with node taking. All it does is present your other guys fighting either in front of you, or under your pillar, as a primary target of focus, and gets them killed faster.
And through playing Archery HR, I have learned that this... is actually the only way to make it work.
Fighting like how a newbie HR player fights, except with much higher efficiency, aggression, and also discipline. Newbies fight like this but don't do any real damage with it, and they also get caught and die easily.
That means, to make an Archery HR work in PvP, which doesn't have any other survival tools than just the distance between you and the other guy, and the element of surprise, you basically play like how a newbie plays... but have to try to make it really count, so that:
-
(1) the amount of damage you do while you're not on the node does really help significantly in clearing the node fast, so you need to deal enough damage to compensate for your absence on the node
-
(2) whenever you've become the center of attention of any number of opponents, you don't expect help from anyone. You need to survive and escape on your own, against whatever odds, and never bother others by having them come to save you
...
Now, as mentioned, this probably raises a lot of skepticism from anyone who reads it because it goes against the conventional PvP rule of thumb. Like mentioned only newbie HRs fight like that, and for someone with actual experience to fight in that manner is like demanding a leap of faith from a cliff.
Simply acknowledging that you are going to lose any 1v1 situation and thus running away the moment someone's gaze falls on you... not fighting down there on the node with your friends... using your teammates as meatshields and bait to land your attacks... and then when you're sure they cannot win the fight on the node, just leaving them there and retreating alone... spending long time moving around between "sniping spots"... no PvP player does this in NW once they become experienced.
This, is what I mean by "shaky role."
In my extensive testings, I did find out that with a certain amount of confidence, this can work if the price of all that nubby thing you have to do above actually does pay off. When this actually works, and you help with removing enemy key players within a matter of seconds, or dragging around the 2 enemy tanks fixated on you all over the map while your teams pushes other nodes. This works when the intent behind these actions work. BUT when it doesn't work, then the entire Archery way of fighting loses all meaning. Its role is just gone, and you're nothing but deadweight to the team.
2. What does Archery need for PvP?
In other words, for Archery to work, then it must be guaranteed it's prime role as an absolutely powerful glass cannon.
Like said, you spend more than 90% of the time moving around for defense. Only about 10% of the time spent in PvP you attack. This means, for Archery to work, the amount of damage this path can put up in that 10% of the time should be threatening enough to any adversary in PvP, and if for any reason the enemy just leaves the Archery HR alone to free-deal his attacks with impunity it would mean total annihilation.
The Archery path currently, IMO, does have higher damage than the other paths, but it doesn't have enough damage to be able to realize the ideal as explained above.
Personally, I've accepted the fact that Archery HRs are basically the "artillery", the "glass cannon". So all the time I spend running around, hiding, escaping, repositioning -- basically all the time I spend "doing the newbie thing" and not helping with direct node capture, I accept it as being absolutely necessary for the Archer to be viable in PvP. This would probably become the balancing factor of this path -- extremely weak in any situations that forces a direct confrontation and therefore, a lot of time spent running away.
But then, in turn, I expect this path to be really able to put up that massively threatening amounts of damage once that 10% of the time comes, and if I am left to unleash attacks freely, every target in my line of sight, whether it be DCs or GFs or OPs, should feel SEVERELY THREATENED.
Archery HRs need this amount of damage to work in PvP, and it currently does not have it.
3. Suggestion
In that sense, unlike how many people suggest in adding more defenses or utilities to Archery (which, IMO, would probably make the path bland and uninteresting), I would request to the devs to not add any of such.
I would like to ask the devs to leave all the flaws of this path as it is, and simply strengthen the one good feature of Archery EVEN MOAR!. Yes, it is weak in defense. Yes, it's not gonna be able to 1v1 anything since it lacks so much in utility. But then, if the player, can handle this "glass cannon" well enough then by golly, let it be the cannon it is -- the artillery of NW PvP field. Immense and inspiring levels of damage, strong enough to threaten DCs or OPs or GFs even, and constantly make them look above to see if there's an Archer somewhere instead of just ignoring them like they currently do, while the Archer plinks ineffective attacks to the horde of tanks and healers down there.
That is what i want to ask for the Archery path for the HR.
Stop making excuses. Be a man.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
0
Comments
Aimed Shot
■Problems
(1) despite being the iconic move for archer-stereotypes in numerous fantasy games, Aimed Shot is deemed useless and generally abandoned even in PvE
(2) currently, according to tool-tip each rank into Aimed Shot only adds more to the recharge time discount, and does not include damage increase
(3) even the most minor of DoTs applied to the HR disrupts channeling of this power, rendering it useless and unuseable for the entire duration of the DoT
(4) despite being a long-range sniping power in concept, the actual range of this power is the same with any other ranged attack from other classes, at 80'
(5) the initiation of this power cancels out supplementary stealth powers like Ambush
(6) due to above problems, finding an opportunity to use Aimed Shot is difficult, upto the point that using a much weaker power without restrictions is actually more damage output for the HR, whereas using Aimed Shot results in very low actual contribution to your ability to deal damage
(7) In PvE, every mob moves around at almost the speeds of a sprinting GWF, making prolonged use of this power in combat difficult
■Solutions
(1) If it is not just a tool tip error, implement the +10% damage per rank progression as with all other powers
(2) Additionally add a 3' range increase per rank, for a total of +12' range at rank4. Combined with Aspect of the Falcon, this slow, charged-up attack will have a 24' range advantage over other attacks
(3) Get rid of the auto-channeling totally. Change it to manual channeling which requires player input to "hold down" the button to charge up the attack. Channeling timed set and locked to 3 seconds
(4) Implement a two-part charging of the attack, with a "half-draw" at 50% charge (1.5s) for 30% of the damage, and a "full-draw" at 100% charge (3.0s) for max damage. This is to add a demerit to just keep spamming half-draw attacks and getting the same DPS as a full-draw attack (especially with the above changes, people will be spamming a lot of 104' range half-draw Aimed Shot attacks)
(5) Charge-up of the attack only cancels on direct attack. No more bullsheet like someone casting a single DoT that lasts 20 seconds cancelling out the power for the entirety of the duration, or someone with an auto-proc minor damage walking by cancelling out your stealthed Aimed Shot.
(6) In accordance to other stealth inducing powers, powers like Snap Shot or the new Aimed Shot which requires a charge-up, will destealth from Ambush effects when the attack is fired, not while you are drawing the bow. What the heck is the use of ambushing someone when the moment you want to begin an actual ambush you announce yourself to everyone??
(7) In compensation any damage inflicted while the HR is charging up Aimed Shot will impose -15% to damage. Also, even if it is a non-targeted attack, any location-based/player-based AoEs and effects(stuff like Daring Shout or CAGI) which players actively cast, will also cancel the attack
2. Encounters
Marauder's Escape
■Suggestions
(1) Immunity Frames needed -- pretty much self-explanatory
(2) Needs to be effected by range-increasing features, such as Aspect of the Falcon
Rain of Arrows
■Suggestions
(1) Radius of the AoE needs to increased, around 15~20' radius. Currently the radius is face-palmly small to be of any use in both PvP and PvE.
(2) Duration of the "rain" needs to be increased, around +3 seconds
(3) Stacking slows upon each hit -- 10% slow per hit, upto 5 stacks
(4) Stacking damage per hit, in much the same manner the TR Cloud of Steel increases with each consecutive attacks hit, 5% increase in each consecutive "raindrop" hit
(5) Basically, in terms of PvE this would be one of the main source of AoE damage which the HR class sorely lacks. In PvP the offensive qualities would be much, much weaker, but would be a more or less useful as an
impromptu node-clear/safety-zone type of powerLongstrider's Shot
■Suggestions
(1) One of the most useful encounters I've ever used as a HR, it still has some QoL issues concerning the minimum range restriction associated with the activation of the buff effect
(2) Needs each rank of the power to increase the buff duration by +1s
(3) Needs each rank of the power to decrease the minimum range required to activate the buff by 3'
3. Archery Feats
Keen Eye
■Suggestions
(1) HRs already have enough means to gain AP as it is, upto the point that having an extra 5% would hardly be of any meaning
(2) Needs to change from 1/2/3/4/5% AP → 2/4/6/8/10% higher crit severity, basically changing into a conditional direct damage buff, which would be of some help to other paths as well. Consider the fact that the "burst damage" path of the TR, Executioner, has a +15% crit severity feat as well.
Broadhead Arrows
■Suggestions
(1) While a useful feature, as it is this feature seems a bit generic, equally of use to other paths than Archery as well
(2) I would like a slight twist to this feat, so while still being of use to all three paths as well, it would add a considerably higher merit to Archery HRs trying to fight at long ranges, at the same time posing a demerit for anyone trying to benefit from this by simply using ranged stance
(3) I would suggest that it; "increases critical chance in your ranged stance by 0.5/1.0/1.5/2.0/2.5% for every 10 feet of range difference between you and the target, starting from 30 feet"
(4) This would first seem like a nerf, since it doesn't add anything to your crit chance when you are inside 30' range of the target. But at maximum range of 80' this feat will give you 2.5 x 5% = 12.5% crit chance bonus. With rank4 Aspect of the Falcon, you will have 15% crit chance bonus at 92', and with r4 AsFalcon + r4 Aimed Shot at 124' distance, you will have 17.5% crit chance bonus. When combined with the +25% from the Stillness of the Forest, you have a woppin' 42.5% crit chance bonus at theoretical maximum range
(5) Is this overpowered? Absolutely not. The above is the theoretical maximum. In PvP catching someone offguard and hitting an attack from maximum range only applies very rarely, if ever at all. In most cases only the first couple of shots will be effected, and the opponent will either move away from max range, or attempt to close the range, which in both cases will rapidly deteriorate this bonus. Compare it with how stuff like EotS on the CWs guarantees a 100% crit chance. Even if it has a 20second interval to activate, which do you think is more likely to happen? You being able to shake off your chaser, or chase someone running away, and make perfect use of this crit bonus at max range within 20 seconds of first activation, or a CW surviving someone for 20 seconds for EotS to activate again?
(6) This suggestion, therefore, is to present a significant merit to playing along the basic concept of the "archer" -- the further the distance (within the limits of effective range, of course) the stronger you are, while at the same time presenting a significant demerit to losing the advantages of the bow weapon as the enemy enters close quarters. (...and yes, Lars Anderson is an idiot) "[/lost]
Longshot■Suggestions
(1) The tier must be switched around with Bottomless Quiver, so BQ comes down to T3, and Longshot moves up T4. The reason for this is because due to what the power is -- piercing -- traits and advantages like these should be exclusive to the path itself, not become something any other path can simply use around. Imagine what it would be like if Shadowy Opportunity came down to Tier3 of Saboteuer path, and thus proliferated to all other paths of the TRs as well
(2) Should be changed to 15/30/45/60/75% of weapon damage, the encounter bonus changed from triple to double(150%), and daily bonus from five-times to triple(225%)
Predator
■Suggestions
(1) No need to halven the 40% bonus damage for PvP. It might have made sense prior to mod6 where everyone only had 40~50k or so HP, but nowadays, in the world of DCs, Paladins, Negation enchants and 120k HP, there is no reason at all. Even if the devs increased it to 60% damage bonus an Archery HR would still have significant problems in taking down Palys or DCs
(2) I'd like to propose a special function to the "Predator" debuff: the game's first stamina debuff. This idea comes from the concept of the predator, a hunter, which stalks the prey, wounds it, and then tracks it down and hounds it until the prey topples from fatigue. In the olden times, when there was a mighty strong prey, a hunter would wound it and track it, corner it, until he is sure that he can deal the final death blow. I would like this concept to apply with the Archery HR.
(3) Aside from getting rid of the "this is halved on players" with the bonus damage, I would like to suggest that when the Archer attacks the target with Predator debuff, each successful attack will deal 5% damage to the stamina bar. When the attack is deflected or dodged, then it does not work. When the attack is blocked by a shield then it only deals 2.5% -- half damage to the stamina bar
With the above changes in mind, ultimately, my vision of the Archery HR is a long-range, bow-focused ranged combatant that deals quite higher damage than current, but not at jaw-dropping levels. The drawbacks -- its weakness to 1v1 situations, it's weakness to ranged CC casters, "shaky role" in PvP is still all there. However, if it is left to deal attacks freely, from a very long range it will almost always land critical attacks, it will be using the powerful Aimed Shot much more often at varying levels of damage, from the weaker "half-draw" shots, to the stronger "full-draw" shots.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The devs were worried about our damage output initially, which is why they made the Archery capstone half as effective in pvp. Perhaps it may be time to revisit that and remove the penalty to see how archers fare then. One thing I feel may help our survivability greatly is giving Marauder's Escape the ability to use when CC'd and provide an immunity frame so we can actually escape our foes. We need something more than just raw damage.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
For class features, Pathfinder's Action and AsFalcon. People can laugh all they want, but IMO the only tactic I could come up to actually fight CWs or SWs that have strong DPS+CC, were with that meager, small range advantage of 12 feet.
At-wills, for me, Rapidshot and Aimedshot. IMO in the end, I believe it comes down to whether you can make Aimedshot work or not... and by golly, I've come down to a few practical techniques, but even that being considered this power also needs some major tweaking.
For encounters I've basically come down to Hindering/Longstrider's/Marauder's, with minor variations.
Rolewise, as I've explained in the opening post I basically gave up all hope or fantasies of me being able to 1v1 anyone with Archery at closequarters(~29 feet) or medium (30 ~ 59 feet) ranges. Maybe players with superb equipment and skill like ralexinor can do it, but nope, not me. Therefore the first discipline I've held for myself while using Archery was "deny all 1v1s". That means no 1v1 node contesting, no node-guarding, and node taking only when relative certain opponents won't come.
It also means, (as also laid out in the opening post) I'm useless in terms of conventional node-contesting environment of NW PvP, therefore, the only way to not become a deadweight is to make my presence count as a DPS... so when it's a 2v2 situation and there's one of our own on the node, I'm standing like 80' away from him -- therefore that guy is going to be fighting 1v2 for some time. If I can make that 1v2 into a 2v1 by taking out or routing one of the opponents, then my Archery tactics have meaning. If I can't do that then I'm useless.
In terms of defense, I've been chased and hounded by so many people when using Archery that I've actually come to be quite proficient at sniffing out an imminent attack and simply bolting from the scene. As also explaind in the opening post I'm totally willing to accept the fact that Archery is such a glass cannon, that anything that comes close and denies me range (or anything that has ranged CCs that land on me constantly) is going to kill me.
As mentioned before I'm ready to accept this as one of the quirks with Archery. If a path will have that much powerful damage, then it must have as much powerful drawbacks. If you're singled out, chased, pinned down then you become useless to your team. I totally get that concept. So under that premise, Archery will have a totally different way of fighting, a method that goes against the 'conventional rules' set forth by NW PvP norm. In order to make Archery HRs useless just send in one person to go chase it away. But in turn (!!), if a player can manage to avert that situation and set himself up as an undetected, or unreachable, "sniper/artillery" on the field, then Archery must have that much damage to work. This is why I'm totally focused on only requesting more damage for Archery path in PvP.
At least, if Archery is indeed going to work like how the devs have set the path up as a "long-range"/bow-and-arrow focused type, as opposed to how Combat is more "close-range"/twin blades fighting type, and trappers as CC/special utility type, then it needs much more damage.
IMO, this is mainly because NW is actually quite wierd in this aspect when you compare it to other MMOGs and how they depict the "ranged vs. melee" aspect of combat.
■ In other games, ranged players have quite strong/potent CCs (especially roots and slows) to help with keeping range, so it's not too difficult to stay away... but once the distance is closed then the combat becomes very difficult and disadvantaged. Almost every MMOGs depict ranged vs. melee fights in this manner, so this concept is probably more familiar to most people.
■ In NW it's wierd. In NW it's freakishly difficult to keep range. Every melee class has incredibly powerful gap closers, and (not withstanding trappers) the CCs available to HRs are pathetic. None of the roots last for more than maybe 1 second. The moment you shoot a root and turn around to run, *poof* the effect is gone, relative distance doesn't change, and the chase is on... but then when someone is constantly on your tail, it's actually not too difficult to fight melees by dodging or evading them at close range.
...
Most HRs fight this way. The old Stormwarden Combat HRs fought this way. The classic, pre-mod6 Pathfinder Combat HRs fought this way, and the current Pathfinder Trapper HRs fight this way as well. There aren't many long-range attacks, it's almost always openers, and then almost immediately the distance closes, and then it's the opponent vs. the HR in a dodging and weaving, chaotic close-quarters fight.
The problem is Archery -- we can't fight that way.
(1) We don't have any of the tools to do that, and we're more of the classic "long range pew-pew".
(2) ...but then none of our tools help with the pew-pew either. Just like other HRs we only have maybe one or two shots worth of time before the range closes. Our roots aren't worth a daamn in PvP.
(3) ...and once that happens, since we can't fight like other HRs, we have to run
(4) ... but I've mentioned above it's freakishly difficult to keep range in NW, much less shake the enemy. So almost all of time is spent in keeping range, and almost 90% of the player skill involved with Archery is how well you can sniff out the act in advance and pre-emptively make a run for it
Then, my contention is, if that be how Archery is played, then Archery needs to have much more potent, and fearful amounts of damage to work. Something on the level even DCs or Palys would fear, so the opponent tries to chase you or drive you away for a reason. If it's the "bit strong, but not overly threatening" level as it is, then it's just a useless path which is meaningless no matter how strong your survival skills are.
Currently Archery is "glass", but not a "cannon" yet.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
1. At-Wills
[Premise] HR at-wills also need supplementary effects associated with it. For example, TR Cloud of Steel, has the supplementary option that increases the thrown dagger damage with each hit. TR Sly Flourish, deals damage resistance debuff with the last attack of the combo. TR Duelist's Flurry, deals a potent bleed effect with the 3rd flurry strikes. GWF Weaponmaster's Strike deals DR debuff. What does the HR at-wills have?? NOTHING.
■ Rapid Shot
Each attack from Rapid Shot will increase the critical chance of the next Rapid Shot against the target by 1%, upto 5 stacks
■ Split Shot
Split Shot will receive an increased Critical Severity rating according to the time the power is charged up. On tap-shots, 0%, with full-charge, +5%
■ Aimed Shot
Base effective range of this power should be increased from 80' to 100'
The power activation should no longer be an auto-channel which cancels from any damage
The power activation should be changed to become a hold/charge type activation, with two stages of charges in the form of "half-draw" and "full-draw" shots.
When you are attacked/receive damage while you are drawing the bow, the power will be debuffed for -20% damage instead of being cancelled
On half-draw, the power will deal 40% of its base damage
On full-draw, the power will deal 100% of its base damage
On full-draw, the power will daze the target for 3.0 seconds (1.5 second in PvP)
2. Class Features
■ Aspect of the Falcon
Range increase is upped from 3' per rank → 5' per rank
3. Encounters
■ Marauder's Escape
Extra ranks of the power will now increase the retreating distance by 10' → Rank3 = 70'
■ Hawk Shot/Hawk Eye
Base damage of Hawshot increased by 20%
Hawk Shot will now deal damage as 10' width Cylinder
Each rank of the power will now add +1 extra stack for Hawk Eye → Rank3 = next 3 powers
■ Commanding Shot/Stag Heart
Activation time of Commanding Shot decreased by 20%
Commanding Shot now applies as an AoE with a 30d cone upto the effective range
The temp HP given by Stag Heart is now doubled
■ Longstrider's Shot
Extra ranks of the power will now add +1 second to effect duration → Rank3 = 6s
4. Archery Feats
■ Longshot → Pointblank Shot
Longshot feat will be changed to "Pointblank Shot"
Your ranged powers will now deal 4/8/12/16/20% higher damage when within 20' of the target
■ Unflinching Aim → Suppressive Fire
Unflinching Aim will be changed to "Suppressive Fire"
Critical hits from your ranged powers will now slow the target by 25% for 4 seconds
Critical hits from your ranged powers will now repel the target by 2/4/6/8/10'
■ Stillness of the Forest
Ranged damage bonus is increased from max 10% → 30%
■ Predator
The 40% bonus damage from the "Prey" debuff inflicted upon target will now apply equally in both PvP and PvE
"Prey" debuff will now induce 50% of your damage inflicted upon the target as piercing damage, if the target is more than 40' away
Frankly speaking, this much change is required to bring Archery up to snuff in both PvP and PvE. Honestly, even if these changes take place it will need the Archery HR to play very carefully and constantly on the defensive, trying to keep range as much as possible. Naturally, the above changes suggest that the initial alpha-strikes from the Archery will be very powerful and nothing like what it is currently. So the basic playstyle of the Archer would/should be:
(1) Land very powerful initial attacks that seriously/critically damages the target
(2) The target notices the Archer and then closes in
(3) The Archer goes into the defensive, distance is easily closed
(4) If the Archer successfully inflicts more occasional damage while trying to defend/retreat, he wins
(5) If the Archer fails to deal more damage and gets caught, and swamped, then he loses
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Show me.
When my 120k Aimed Shot deals only 25k damage in actual PvP combat, that with a triple damage buff coming from stacking of Commanding Shot(target defense debuff), Longstrider's(straight up damage buff), Throw Caution(15% DR ignored), I'd be immensely curious as to just what "good build" you are talking about here.
(ps) The above suggestions are with the premise that Crushing Roots gets removed, or significantly nerfed, of course.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I would not like a HR mate that cant fight in 1 vs 1 in a node, with all the rotations at the end you will 1 vs 1 and you will die.
...and that is precisely because even with the so-called "damage buffs" we have in the Archery tree, the actual damage output is depressingly low against modern PvP builds with 100k HP, 40% Tenacity DR, and additional 30% Negation. The damage buffs the Archery path has, how it works, only start to show in a prolonged engagement and the means to survive and fight that prolonged time is precisely what the path does not have.
Hence, unless the Archer can deal a very devastating amount of damage from much longer distance than current, like you said, it basically has no chance at all against ANY class of ANY path. Like said, the Archer can't even square off with the SWs, and not even the good/BiS equipped ones. Just any decently equipped SW meets an Archer in a shoot-out and it's just a one-sided massacre.
Like said, I've got my Aimed Shot to deal preferably as high damage as possible, and this 120k hit from an at-will, in PvP, is chucked down to less than 30k on most classes -- for example on a CW with Negation. Basically you find the chance-moment and lob one of these, and it only hits for like maybe 20k on a CW. The CW turns to face you, fires his own rotation and 1/3rd of your HP is gone. So he is at 80% HP while I'm down to 66%, and from that point on the CW just starts walking toward you firing a mix of his own encounters and Ray of Frost, your Aimed Shot just goes dead and unuseable, and you can lob 4~5 shots from your encounters and rapid shot combined and that does what.. another 15~20% damage to him at most?
Weak. Damage just too goddarn weak. The Archer has no self defense except range. How does this work out?
Against melees that are supposedly 'weak at range' ...
■ The GWF sprints toward you, and if he's got Bravery slotted it takes maybe 2 seconds for him to close down to melee distance. From that point on it's a close-range weaving fight, all your long-range powers are unuseable or ineffective, so you just plink at-wills while weaving and dodging, and the moment the stamina dries up you're dead. Did I mention the most powerful of encounter attacks against GWFs deal maybe 3k~4k damage at most? Or how about the fact that the daggers they lob at you with their hands, hits harder than your arrow you shoot from a longbow?
■ The GFs and Palys, oh wow, they've got their frickin' big-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> shield. No matter how much you plink at that damned shield their stamina just doesn't seem to drain enough, they just walk toward you and then go into a lunging strike that has a stupid-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> 55' range, or a bull charge which has 30' range. Your attacks are at most 80' range, so these supposedly heavily-armed classes, has a single move which covers on average more than half the distance you have against them. You can't even get away with Marauder's when they have Lunging Strike slotted. None of your attacks make through the shield, and then once they close in the game's over.
■ The TR... stealth. Approach. Attacks you, you can't retaliate. Self-explanatory. Game over.
So no. Even at range, the melees just dominate you when you're an Archer. So then how about when you face a ranged? I mean, conceptually many MMOGs depict it the way that bow-and-arrow archery classes are like natural predators to supposedly weak, frail ranged classes.
■ Against a CW... they shoot with cannons. You fire back with a peashooter. They also have potent CCs that connject into a strong rotation. You have no CCs. Game over.
■ Against a SW... look above... game over.
■ Against a DC... their stun spamming and DoTs deal more damage than the powers you shoot at them... not to mention the self-heals. game over.
Literally, all of this is because of the damage. Nobody fears the Archer, because not only is it the most weak and frail class/path in the game, but also it's got nothing that hurts. Nobody fears the Archer. Any ranged class just barge in with random push of ranged power buttons and the Archer goes down before you do. Any melee class just run up and close the distance once, and then from that point the game's over.
Damage.
The Archer needs damage.
The fight I see that should be coming with the Archer, is that all of his encounters hit at least twice as harder than any other HR path can deal, and Aimed Shot should be made free to use at all situations. Basically if you aren't aware that an Archer's around, he will deal sniping shots from a distance where you can't even see his name tag, and that's going to hit like 20~30k damage through even your tenacity AND negation.
So you suddenly get struck by a really hard shot that knocks 30k off your HP, you're surprised, you see that a Archer is nearby and you make toward him. By the time you are within like 40~50' range of him, his additional attacks have dealt more damage and you are down to like half HP.
From that point on the Archer now does not have enough time to use long-activation powers, so he starts to retreat firing his at-wills at you, you try harder to close in, and if his smaller powers and attacks can knock off the rest of your HP then you lose, if you close in and deal your full rotations then you turn the tables and win.
If you are a ranged class, then the Archer will be shooting at you from at least 20' longer than your own attacks, you try to close in to deal your own attack but the Archer keeps retreating to keep distance, and finally when you are in your own firing range, it becomes a shoot-out. If you miss your crucial CCs then the amount of ranged damage the Archer is going to land should overcome your own, and basically you are fekked. If you land your crucial CCs and are free to make your own CC rotation without the Archer being able to fire back, then the Archer is fekkd. In terms of power balance no ranged class will deal pure, pure damage as strong as the Archer, but in turn the Archer does not have any major CCs except for 10sec interval Disruptive Shots. So no ranged class should ever feel so confident and cocky as to just mash on any ranged attacks and simply outgun the Archer, because the Archer, in compensation for his most frail and unstable defense, should have the highest pure ranged-DPS of them all, and should be the one outgunning EVERY ranged class when CCs are not involved.
This, is what the Archer should be. It NEEDS damage. And a LOT of damage, at that.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
■ Longshot → Pointblank Shot
■ Unflinching Aim → Suppressive Fire
Those changes would affect pve, pointblank would just reduce our damage since we're losing on Longshot (in group content we can always maintain the distance).
Suppressive fire is, IMO, a very bad change to unflinching Aim, think about a group of mobs beeing pushed away from our Rain of Arrows after every crit, this is straight up losing a lot of damage.
So I suggest that, instead of Suppressive Fire, hawk shot when fired at 20 ft or closer would push away the target for a set amount of fts. say 50 ft for max rank.
The others suggestions I like a lot, but I have doubts about the aimed shot increased range, because at that range it would be the only thing we can do, and as suggested many, many times on these forums, I agree that Aimed shot should only be interruped by CC. About the stun on max charge is really nice, but should have an internal CD, because 3 seconds is enough to charge another one, even 1.5 sec, at max range, we could shot another, that wouldn't be balanced,
Good point. Had not considered the effect in PvE. Was thinking of powerful arrow shots which keep staggering the opponent -- instead of how currently everybody just merrily walks up and barges in to your personal space. Probably would have to rethink suppressive fire or how it works.
IIRC Aimed Shot is 3.0 sec default, and at rank 4 cut down to 2.25 seconds. Maybe the time should be lowered to 2.0 daze in PvE and 1.0 in PvP, in which case would give you 1.25 seconds time to dodge the next incoming Aimed Shot. Compared to this, the meta of cheesey Trapper builds actually deals more damage and is much more threatening in that it literally dazes you non-stop for long, unending streaks, thus guaranteeing unending damage no matter how small it is. Usually, when combined with stuff like Thorned Roots, this actually would deals a h3lluva higher DPS than spamming Aimed Shot.
It is absolutely necessary, for the Archer to really become a long-range threat. Currently, for example, nothing we shoot off can match the pure (bullsheet) power of stuff like Disintegrate. For CWs, that's supposed to be an encounter power yet only having 6 second recharge, and no way to stop the CW from spamming it.
Frankly no CW or SW should just walk in with guns blazing and still out-damaging the Archer HR so ridiculously, such as they can now. The long-range sniping shot from Aimed Shot must be strong and threatening enough to force the CW to use up dodges or think twice about whether to engage or not, etc etc.. force him to make decisions or mistakes.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
these simple things would make HR a more balanced class in pvp and pve for melee
little things we may get. An overhaul wont happen just a nerf like the SW if to many complaints
jhp
Honestly, for the moment, it feels better to suggest possible changes to the class to make it fun than actually playing, it's a D&D game after all, there's no harm in using the imagination (like talking to your DM about some household rules to make your class more useful)
Forest ghost with less CD wouldn't help that much since we can't have so much AP that fast.
Your suggestions about Trapper aren't quite clear to me, sorry.
You do know that at low lv pvp, someone with that is doing a lot of damage anyway right? Balancing the game based on low lvl stuff is not ideal in any way, we have scaling powers for that.
Forest ghost with less CD wouldn't help that much since we can't have so much AP that fast.
Your suggestions about Trapper aren't quite clear to me, sorry.[/quote]
probably make forest ghost have a longer duration would have been the better thing to say. These were just an example of simple things that would help each class but us as HRs are in need of an overall damage boost and melee and archer need some survival boost but if it takes much effort then its not going to happen. the problem is at the BIS level in PVP HR is a strong class and in a one on one that can play they can take every one but there are a few GFs and CWs that are really good and its hard to 1v1 any BIS TR if over all damge was buffed and thornward was stronger then the HR would be more evenly matched in pvp at lower levels especially and might help give an alternative to perma cc .
jhp
as far as low level pvp you will always see alts already geared BIS they will roll over any one changes wont make any difference one way or another in PVP matches its easy at my level to build second tune and for 20k ad get a killer build and drop all kinds of good things like dragon bone set artifact belts and cloaks and level 8 enchants.
0. General
■ Shifting(HR dodge)
- HR shifts are now increased in their shift distance by 50%, duration of shifting remains same (covers more ground within the same amount of time)
1. At-Wills
[Premise] HR at-wills also need supplementary effects associated with it. For example, TR Cloud of Steel, has the supplementary option that increases the thrown dagger damage with each hit. TR Sly Flourish, deals damage resistance debuff with the last attack of the combo. TR Duelist's Flurry, deals a potent bleed effect with the 3rd flurry strikes. GWF Weaponmaster's Strike deals DR debuff. What does the HR at-wills have?? NOTHING.
■ Rapid Shot
- Each attack from Rapid Shot will increase the damge of the next Rapid Shot against the target by 2%, upto 5 stacks
■ Split Shot
- Split Shot will receive an increased Critical Severity rating according to the time the power is charged up. On tap-shots, 0%, with full-charge, +5%
■ Aimed Shot
- Base effective range of this power should be increased from 80' to 100'
- The power now increases damage by 10% per rank invested, in consistency with all other powers
- Base effective range of this power increased from 80' to 100'
- The power activation is no longer be an auto-channel which cancels from any damage
- The power activation is changed to become a manual hold/charge activation, with two stages of charges in the form of "half-draw" and "full-draw" shots.
- When you are attacked/receive damage while you are drawing the bow, the power will be debuffed for -20% damage instead of being cancelled
- On half-draw, the power will deal 40% of its base damage
- On full-draw, the power will deal 100% of its base damage
- On full-draw which hits critically, the power will prone the target for 3.0 seconds (1.5 second in PvP)
2. Class Features
■ Aspect of the Falcon
- Range increase is upped from 3' per rank → 5' per rank
3. Encounters, Dailies, and Class Features
■ Marauder's Escape
- Extra ranks of the power will now increase the retreating distance by 10' → Rank3 = 70'
■ Rain of Arrows/Rain of Swords
- Rain of Arrows AoE is now increased to a 15' radius circle
- Each hit of Rain of Arrows will now stack a debuff upon the target: each stack of debuff deals a -10% slow/-5% DR for 3 seconds, upto 5 stacks.
- Rain of Swords is now totally redesigned. RoS is now a flurry of blades that resembles TR/Duelist's Flurry
- RoS will have an AoE as 120 degrees cone, 15' range, non-targeting required
- RoS will deal 5 quick slashes with the blades over 1.5 seconds, with CC-immunity during those 1.5 seconds
- Each rank of RoS will add +1 slash/+0.3s power duration → at r4, 8 slashes over 2.4 seconds
■ Hindering Shot
- The root effect is removed from Hindering Shot
- Each shot of Hindering Shot now deals a debuff to the target which lasts 6 seconds, upto 3 stacks
- Each stack deals a -20% movement speed debuff
- At 3 stacks, the next encounter attack dealt by the HR upon the target will hit with 100% Crit Chance/+10% Crit Severity. Upon the use of an encounter the stacks are spent and gone
■ Hawk Shot/Hawk Eye
- Base damage of Hawshot increased by 20%
- Each rank of the power will now increase the minimum damage of Hawk Shot by 100% → at r4, the minimum damage is increased by 300% (4 times )
- Each rank of the power will now add +1 extra stack for Hawk Eye → Rank4 = next 4 powers
■ Constricting Arrow/Steel Breeze
- Constricting Arrow now stuns your target for 1 second (0.5 in PvP) after the initial root wears off
- Steel Breeze now increases your rate of stamina regeneration by 20% for 5 seconds, each rank adds +5% regeneration rate → rank4 = 35%
■ Binding Arrow
- Binding Arrow now deals roots in an 15' AoE radius around the initial target
■ Commanding Shot/Stag Heart
Activation time of Commanding Shot decreased by 20%
Commanding Shot now applies as an AoE with a 30d cone upto the effective range
The temp HP given by Stag Heart is now doubled
Any unspent temp HP during the course of a single full duration of Stag Heart recharge time, is converted as true HP (= heals)
■ Split the Sky
- Split the Sky lightning bolts will now proc on ALL sources of damage, including DoTs
- Split the Sky lightning bolts will now have a 0.5s ICD (the number of bolts are not affected)
■ Ambush/Bear Trap
- Ambush stealth now expires AFTER a power has been activated, not upon its activation
- Bear Trap now has 3 charges instead of 2
- Location of Bear Trap is now invisible to the enemy
- Base damage of Bear Trap is now increased by 200% (3 times higher damage)
- Base stun duration of Bear Trap is now set to 6 seconds (3 seconds in PvP)
■ Cold Steel Hurricane
- CSH is now a location-based AoE, approximately same AoE radius as CW/Furious immolation
- CSH now lasts for 5 seconds
- Base damage of CSH increased by 20%
■ Longstrider's Shot/Gushing Wound
- Extra ranks of the power will now add +1 second to effect duration → Rank4 = 7s
- Activation time of Gushing Wound changed to instant melee activation
■ Crushing Roots
- Root-daze mechanic is now removed
- Crushing Roots now adds +1s to the duration of ALL your root powers(+0.5 in PvP). This duration does not respect CC resistance/immunity in PvE (respects CC resistance/immunity in PvP)
Each rank of Crushing Roots adds +1s (+0.5 in PvP) → r4 = +4s (+2s in PvP)
4. Archery Feats■ Longshot → Pointblank Shot
Longshot feat will be changed to "Pointblank Shot"
Your ranged powers will now deal 4/8/12/16/20% higher damage when within 20' of the target
■ Unflinching Aim → Suppressive Fire
- Unflinching Aim will be changed to "Suppressive Fire"
- Critical hits from your ranged powers will now increase your deflect severity by 5/10/15/20/25% for 4 seconds
- Critical hits from your ranged powers will now increase your chance to deflect attacks from the target by 2/4/6/8/10% for 4 seconds
■ Stillness of the Forest
- Ranged damage bonus is increased from max 10% → 30%
■ Predator
- The "Prey" receives 30% extra damage from the "Predator" -- this applies equally in PvE AND PvP
- Critical hits from your ranged attacks landed on your "Prey", will deal 20% of your base damage inflicted as extra piercing damage
- Critical hits from your ranged attacks landed on your "Prey", will reduce healing effects on the "Prey" by 20% (incoming heals)
- Critical hits from your ranged attacks landed on your "Prey", will bleed them for 1% of their HP for 5 seconds, 1 tick per sec (0.5% HP per tick in PvP, gets adjusted values against bosses in PvE)
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Increasing deflect severity should be available only for Combat Tree but instead this we can implement old Alone Wolf.
Even if devs wanna to do deflect severity feat then amount of this cant be more than 15%.
50% base + 10% pot + 5% heroic feat + your 25% = 90% deflect severity
You dont think thats is too OP?
There are old mod2 feats if anyone wanna look:
The numbers itself could always be tweaked, so if +25% at 5 points invested is too much, then it can always be toned down to something like 2/4/6/8/10%.
Besides, the krapcheese steroid-doping should be removed from PvP anyway, so naw. I don't think its too severe.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'