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[Suggestion PvE] Archery
silvereldunari
Member Posts: 69 Arc User
What are your thoughs on giving something like 0.5 Cooldown Reduction on ranged critical hits against our target with Prey?
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That's gonna be overpowered as heck unless;
(1) ICD on cooldown reduction
(2) no recharge reduction from ranged-DoT effects
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
What's past is past. When they remove something its for a reason.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The point still stands, Sandy. For example a simple shot of Rapid-Shot to the target to crit and proc a LostM bonus damage.. then what? A full 1-second recharge discount? Or, even if they disallow its activation the path already has a 30% recharge reduction. The way its set up, every shot you take that crits will root, and then consequentially daze, at the same time taking off 0.5 seconds from the recharge. This isn't right.
Not sure what the purpose behind the suggested changes are, but if it is to buff up the archery path then IMO what it needs is a straight-forward more direct damage buff... or, I'd rather prefer stuff like "your aimed shot is no more effected by non-direct/DoT forms of damage
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The issue with lostmauth is a lostmauth issue not necessarily an issue with the suggestion, and that can easily be fixed by making it only proc off at wills, encounters and dailies. Also if absolutely necessary, an icd of one second could also work.
I think it would give archery something it lacks as well. The capstone should also have full effect on players rather than half effect.
Regarding crushing roots, that bs should just get an icd or be deleted once hrs can get a base damage increase, and trapper nerfed.
The thing is, I've been running certain number of 'pet projects' to revisit overlooked builds and paths and to see if I can find a use for it. One of them is the Archery HR and I already know you've also tried making it work for PvP, so I'm pretty certain you've probably seen and experienced what I'm seeing and experiencing as well.
Unless they redesign everything, which I don't see happening for a long long time, the thing with Archery is that it doesn't have any reliable survival tools except pure distance, and with the amount of lunge/gap-closing powers available to melee classes in this game, running a HR that cannot constantly root/daze people means any mode of defense purely depends on your judgement alone. Distance is the one advantage you have, and against the same ranged classes like CWs with straight-up nuke damage and CCs (or even against the SWs that begin with the big stun) you don't even have that advantage. (...it's actually hilarious in that I'm beginning to appreciate that 12' extra distance you get through AsFalcon than other ranged classes...)
This means the Archery HR, if played in PvP, isn't a node contester, can't help at all with nodes that confine you into fixed distances, so the only way this path has any meaning would be to be able to deal an amount of damage that is leaps and bounds above what others can, or else it has no meaning.
In that sense, even if the capstone changed in that manner, it doesn't help at all in PvP. IMO for archery, what matters is the amount of singular damage you can put up within a limited amount of time, rather than being able to use powers often and repeatedly to put up damage. I don't think having shorter cooldowns would be of any real help.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I played archery a bit on preview, fought against a BiS gf (lothor) and nearly won. The main issues I noticed was:
A) Damage was lacking compared to trapper, meaning I struggled to outdamage his heals sometimes, although it was more a case of not having enough damage to properly compete. With trapper, you have more or less the same or higher amount of damage boosts, coupled with thorned roots, which is another 40% damage.
C) I didn't mind the longer cooldowns too much, but considering hr pathetic base damage and the lack of options while your things are on cooldown, archery would do much better with a feat like prime critical (the suggestion in op). The class would have felt smoother if the cooldowns were a bit lower, which can be achieved with a feat like that. The 30% rsi is decent, but having a feat which requires more active gameplay and more opportunity during encounter cooldown periods would be more effective in terms of contributing to the class feel.
D) I don't remember right now, but I think I did take serpent off so I was a bit more tankier with lone wolf, although I think I did keep crushing roots. The dazes are no where near as broken, which is probably how it was intended.
E) obviously archery is meant to be a pew pew playstyle after the mod 4 rework which I don't really agree with, since hr was originally intended to be a hybrid melee ranged class, and was hence originally designed for that. The rework didn't accomplish a total class redesign because the core parts of the class in the powers was not changed, only the feats were. I did find myself mostly using ranged only encounters and at wills, since archery is obviously feated for that, but it was actually probably mostly because the melee versions of the encounters I was using (thorn ward, constricting arrow, hindering shot) are complete and utter trash, particularly for thorn ward. I was using the hindering shot melee encounter when I could, but that was mostly as part of combos to maximise damage, not so much as a standalone skill.
Archery isn't quite as bad as people think it is but it is weak, particularly against other ranged classes like sw and cw. Against a melee class is a different story - it can still somewhat compete but will ultimately fall because of the mediocre damage and lack of options. It doesn't do quite enough damage to be considered a ranged striker, and because of the additional tenacity next mod, archery will fall behind anymore because it is the path that relies the most on crit out of all three paths.
Additionally, the setup I was using was mostly a setup for fighting on a node, and a full trapper or longshot build is far more effective anyway. Fighting off a node, the setup would be extremely weak because a large portion of debuff and damage was from thorn ward (haven't thoroughly tested but tw could be giving up to 20% Hard RI at max stacks?), with hindering and constricting also making up a large portion of dps.
Trapper overperforms while archery and combat underperform. The class is fragile and fairly weak at its most basic level, but it gives the illusion of being strong due to broken mechanics synerygising far too well with each other. I understand your point, but I can tell you that it won't be the same as mod 3 hr, which is where the prime critical feat was most broken. It was an issue because of yes, careful attack multiprocing it. Hence as I said, either an icd or having it only proc on at wills, encounters and dailies would be a better option. However, I don't really expect it to be much of a problem if it doesn't synergise with lostmauth, because hr cds are fairly long in general, and one of the highest single target dps skills in pvp, hindering shot, is not affected by cooldown reductions. Additionally the large problem with mod 3 hr was careful attack, which would not be an issue in this case because it's not a ranged skill.
Removing the player reduction from the capstone would go a long way though. Adding the op's suggestion would help the path a lot as well, and possibly make it finally viable. It does have the potential to be a strong path, although trapper would still need tone downs tbh.
Pretty much as I expected.
No disrespect intended at all, Sandy, but my impression of your assessment is that of a "bastardization" (please excuse the term). What I mean by this is having seen your preference of combat, you've probably basically deviated from the concept of Archery and how it is to be played (as hinted/laid-out by the devs) and made the proper skill choices and investments to severely alter it into a version that fits the conventional close-mid range combat HRs currently do -- meaning that aside from a few feats that would fit the situation, others features of archery that emphasize in long-range combat are probably dumped and abandoned.
So my other thread which I've posted while you were typing this response, would probably be an emphasis towards "How can archery work as that 'pew-pew' mode," I guess. Which, from that point on a lot a lot of what you've mentioned also echo in my assessments as well -- in which case I've come to seeking solution in probably the exact opposite direction -- if they want Archery to be pew-pew, then by golly let it be the most pew-pew of all pew-pews!
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Some people think that archery = trapper, we have no daze on every critical, that's something from trapper
Lostmauth wouldn't be able to proc this, it is no a ranged attack.
Many hitting Encounters wouldn't proc multiple times, the thing that would proc the most would be rapid shot indeed.
The reasoning behind this is to allow us to have Encounters Like RoA up all times, and make more use of others since our At wills are doing so little damage.
Saying this can be Over Power when Swiftness is a thing just doesn't make any sence
Trapper's Cunning is on tier-3 of the path. With a 50% crit chance that turns about 12% out of all your attacks made proc roots, which will automatically proc a daze when combined with Crushing Roots.
At the same time, according to the suggestion the capstone will keep reducing the recharge time as well, which, by your own words, will allow you to "have encounters up all times", which is just another fancy way of saying, "non-stop encounter spamming".
What do you think is going to happen when you pull a big group of mobs, gather them nicely with Cordon, and then fire off RoA as well as Plantgrowth? I'll tell you what happens. As soon as the mobs are gathered, Cordon laid down, and then P.Growth + RoA, you will see all your encounter's recharge time tick down like crazy and have all of it finish recharge within a few seconds, then you can spam all those encounters again. During the entire process every mob caught within the raidus kept dazed during the entire process of that AoE encounter spamming happening.
If things were like that, as long as the mobs can be dazed, I'd bet a HR can solo a 5-man encounter if it survives through the mob-hordeing process.
....
If there's anything Predator needs, it's increase in DPS by way of direct damage. It needs to make each shots coming from the Archer HR powerful enough to be felt both in PvP and PvE -- not by way of increasing DPS through encounter spamming.
I'd propose:
(1) Ranged encounter powers apply "Prey" debuff on target
(2) Prey deals 40% additional damage to your target
(3) This additional damage remains SAME in both PvP and PvE
(4) Prey deals 25% of your weapon damage per second for 5 seconds as bleed
(5) while bleeding through Prey effect, the target is debuffed for -3% DR and slowed by 25%
(6) each attack refreshes and stacks the bleed for 5 stacks total
(7) at maximum, -15% DR and 125% weapon damage as bleed. The slow effect does not stack
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Although your suggestion to prey is nice, it's already 40% additional damage, 25% slow does not help a lot since prey is focused on boss advantange (not gonna help slowing one target on a 5 mob group)
the bleed idk how I feel about it since you didn't metionet an internal CD, it would just make prey deal 25% weapon damage per second, this would just be another weaker longshot
About the capstone do you guys think it would be too hard or even impossible without a heavy class rework to let us move while using at wills attacks?
It's not gonna help at all.
As I've mentioned many times, the problem with Archery is that the combat conditions of NW doesn't allow the Archery HR (hereafter 'Archer') to fight within his own element, which is ofcourse, at medium~long ranges. This applies even in PvE -- give me the chance and I can down even a tough lv73 ToD mob with 3 or more HP 'notches' within 3~4 shots. But the problem is my strongest attack can be used only as an initiator, only once, and then the ranged mob mixed within the mob group always interrupts everything else, and of course all the melee mobs arrive at your position within 2~3 seconds, and then from that point on you will never be able to kite them again.
In terms of PvP, my repeated experiments to survive without Crushing Roots (= basically, without playing a makeshift-trapper) have led me to the conclusion that the best survival/damage balanced set-up is with Marauder's Escape and Longstrider's -- with this setup I can permanently keep range and pucker away at any melee class except the TR.
The problem is, if we are forced to use this set-up to keep to our favored range, then the problem is that to deal damage we only have 1 encounter slot to use. What are we going to use in that slot? Is that enough to damage anyone? Longstrider's is a very useful power, one of the best IMO, but the buff effect only lasts 4 seconds or so, and then goes into a cooldown longer than 15 secs. It allows for a damage buff long enough to fire off maybe 2~3 powers.
When you fire off that one encounter which is not Longstrider's nor Marauder's, is that enough to secure your advantage in any meaningful manner? H3ll no. I can get my Hindering Shot or any other encounter to land at maybe 7~8k damage at most even against Negation-equipped opponents, but that's 7~8k out of his 100k HP. After that shot he is going to close in, and I have to run, and the only attacks will be another 7~8k attacks at long intervals, or smaller 3~4k Rapidshots from time to time.
If anything, it is now my belief that to make Archery work, the Capstone must give us the dreaded, dreaded and dangerous effect which everyone hates -- it needs to give us piercing damage. That's the only way currently, IMO.
Make the Archery Capstone deal the 40% more damage BOTH in PvP AND PVE, and at the same time, against targets with PREY activated, 50% of our damage dealt should be counted as piercing -- on the condition that the ranged to target is further away than 40 feet. (This is to discourage the medium, close-range Trapper style fighting to receive the same bonuses as us Archers do)
IMO, this is the only way Archery will work. We have such short time on target when the distance is to our favor. Then the only way to ensure that Archers can also be made of use in PvP or PvE, is that "short time on target" is so powerful and inspiring enough to make an impression.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
...which is IMO going to help somewhat in raising the overall sustained DPS of the class (higher rate of power cycling = more damage dealt over time), but the problem is Archery does not have the tools required for sustained survivability.
In other words, basically, having a higher "rate of fire" takes only noticeable effect when you can survive throughout that time. If the recharge time doubles and the Archer can fire twice as much encounters as attacks, it will be able to double its DPS output only under the condition that your 'firing time' is guaranteed. Except, even if you have twice as much use in powers like Marauder's Escape, you will still be spending a lot of the time trying to distance yourself or evade incoming ranged attacks.
For example, suppose an open, face-to-face engagement against a SW or a CW. If you get higher recharge time on your powers, then you might be able to match his firepower when both parties are guaranteed to be allowed to start shooting at each other for a certain amount of time. The problem is, the CW or SW has significant burst damage powers as well as CCs, and therefore no matter how you do it, in the end you are the one who will be trying as best as you can to dodge enemy CCs and powers, and the CW/SW will be the one that will just casually be freed up to deal his maximum rate of attack/damage upon you -- because the CW/SWs does not have any reason to fear a HR when it does not use Crushing Roots, and especially when the HR still has that mediocre damage that's mostly blocked off by stuff like Tenacity and Tab-Shield. This means that no matter how fast you recharge your own encounters, you won't have a chance to use them that often anyway because you'll be spending your time in the defensive, dodging and maneuvering, and when you are doing that, you aren't attacking
It's not the recharge times of powers that are the problem with HRs and especially Archery. It's with the damage itself. Unless you give an equal reason for the CW/SW to fear you, and force him to try and distance away, or dodge often, what they will do is simply keep on barging in as you try to dodge and retreat, they will open fire with "cannons" at high frequency, while you will be shooting back with "peashooters" at low frequency.
Simply put, unless a CW/SW sees you and thinks to himself "oh sheet... it's an Archery HR, and he's at range...! I've gotta get out of here! One or two shots from his arrows really hurt!", the CW/SW simply goes, "Meh. He can hit me for what... 6k? 8k at most with his puny encounters? I shave off 20k per pop with my 4 sec recharge Disintegrate. He's a ranged-Archery and does not use Crushing Roots. So puny. I just move toward him with guns blazing and he's toast" and that's exactly what happens, which, in the end, forces Archers to just go with makeshift trapper setups and fight like trappers, using Hindering Shots and other rooting powers, instead of the more range-friendly attacks.
Frankly speaking, I can guarantee that once the devs remove the goddarned "power canceled from attacks" bullsheet from Aimed Shot, this alone will have a big effect in bringing up the ante for Archers.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
So do you think it's would or would not help in PvP (since I don't do it) the marauder's change I suggested, I know that it would help a lot on solo PvE at least.
IMO, it would help partially, as in, the part where you need to increase the distance between you and the target. Hence, in my latest suggestion (http://perfectworld.vanillaforums.com/discussion/1195138/pvp-showing-some-love-for-archery#latest) I've suggestd to increase the retreat distance by 10' per extra rank to the power, so at rank2 the retreat distance is 60', at rank3 70', at rank4 80'. I've forgot to add a suggestion regarding immunity times and yes, I strongly believe Maurauder's needs to be treated as a dodge type damage/CC immunity escape.
I mean, did you know that Lunging Strike the GFs use, actually has a 55' range? That's more than half the maximum distance of ranged powers (80').
...
But the problem persists. So you've now bought a woppin' 80' distance with your escape power. Now what? What can you fire at the enemy that is going to hurt them?
Nothing.
Damage. Archery needs more, decisive, frightening amounts of more damage, as I've basically laid down in my recent suggestions(http://perfectworld.vanillaforums.com/discussion/1195138/pvp-showing-some-love-for-archery#latest)
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Here's an open question for any Archery HRs, and the developers as well as the moderators.
If you've ever succeeded without just chugging in scrolls of life, I'd like to see it please. And then, I'd like to ask you people if you even actually try your content with each of the classes... and then, would like to know why in the world would you put one of the ToD lair quests as a part of the start-up sequence quests for ToD that cannot be skipped or abandoned.
Specifically, I'd like to see how you guys handle 2 x Guard Drakes with an Archery build.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
(1) It's not a makeshift mid-close range Trapper knock-off using Crushing Roots
(2) The IL stays between 2,000 ~ 3,000
(3) No 10 minute long-runs on a single mob group, killing one, run away, come back, kill one...
(4) No tanking companions
I'd really, really like to see just how much your intent on how this path is supposed to be played, as a medium-long range skirmisher, is actually working out in your hands, because for the rest of Archery HRs -- it doesn't, unless you are someone else's companion NPC just following him around and shooting from behind him.
I mean, the devs MUST have had some reason to leave Archery this way even in PvE, right? How else would they expect an Archer to do any of the normal PvE content?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
That first thing is impossible really, there's no way to keep mobs always from you, although I do use crushing roots, it's only rank 1 (I got a power point and decided to test it) it helps to stop an attack, not for the daze itself, I use it with hindering shot/strike only.
Not that Archery is balanced but I did manage to almost complete Drake Pen Solo IL 2300, I got through all the fights without dying, but the Master Alchemist fight, although I manage to get him to 10% health, it's just insane, what always killed me is the undodgeable ranged poison spits that always took a lot of my health.
What helped me survive the Guard Drake fights was the Lathander's set that I use for hard fights.
The only reason I tryed this insanity is because I couldn't find a party since it wasn't a quest of that day, and it was the last one to get my final WoD boon (not counting the ones that requires Linu's) or else I'd just find a party and roll my face on the keyboard since it doesn't make any difference with 5 people.
Pretty much what I've figured, and concluded as well. There's absolutely no variation possible IMO, with the Archery build. You can't play an Archer with the Archery build. How ironcal is that?
IMO actually fighting against other people in PvP, has more chance for you to really put your bow and arrows into works. In PvE, for the Archery build, is to simply be a poor-man's version of the Trapper build with less effective nonstop dazing. The at-will Aimed Shot becomes impossible to use, the feat Stillness of the Forest also totally loses all function, as well as Hasty Retreat -- since basically all mobs chase you at the speed of a sprinting GWF -- permanently(in lairs), until your death. Ghostwalker also becomes pointless, as the amount of constant dodges you need to avoid 2x Guard drakes swiping with their tail for a 15k damage each, resulting in like 30~40% off your HP per every.. what.. 5 second exposure?
So basically 3 of the feat choices don't even have any meaning in PvE. I thought the devs were supposed to be primarily centered in PvE?? Wut??
Which is simply put, basically the same thing as using scroll of life. You're mentioning the Soulforge effect, right?
...and I thought an Oppressor CW was difficult to mange in the boss fights where a sheet-ton of mobs with CC immunity appear. I did manage to complete Cultist Prison alone, the one with the Prison Warden and two Guard drakes from the beginning -- with the use of 7 x scroll of life.
At this moment the only thing I am really surprised is why all the HR players that came before me kept so quiet about this, relatively speaking. I am aware of the few complaints that Archery is underpowered when these changes took place in mod5, but I've never imagined it would be this bad.
Devs, without any bit of sense of falsification or exaggeration, I must warn all of thee:
ARCHERY, IS BAD TO THE POINT THAT IT IS ALMOST UNPLAYABLE.
Anyone who disagrees, follow the challenges issued above this post and educate me please. Really, no sarcasm intended. I really want to know how you can play Archery, basically as a long/medium ranged skirmishing bow-and-arrow pew-pew, instead of just spamming Crushing Root dazes, spreading out location-based AoE powers and then swiping stuff with AoE at-wills with craapton of lifesteal stat, because I really don't consider that as an "Archer".
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
- Rapid shot/strike: each time you hit a target it gets easier to hit it again gain 3/6/9/12/15% more damage with each hit.
- Marauders Scape: dash backwards for 50/60/70/80 feet (ranks 1/2/3/4)
- Aspect of the falcon 5/10/15/20 extra range
- Electric Shot: 50% chance to slow 10/20/30% (rank 4 70% chance)
- Hawk shot: this power is now a line based encounter (similar to Green Dragonfang Aimed shot), enemies at max range are slowed for 10/20/30% enemies not at max range are pushed backwards (40/45/50 feet max) (same damage scaling as it is now)
- Hawk eye: for 2/2.5/3/3.5 seconds additional 35/40/45/50% critical severity (party gets 5/10/15/20%)
- Blade Storm --> Static Storm: same as old blade storm and has a 20% chance for ranged attacks to deals 5/10/15/20% of your attack damage in a area around the target.
- Twin Blade Storm --> Streak Static Storm 5/10/15/20% Increased damage on hitting more than 2 enemies
- Cold Steel hurricane: 50% action point cost, changed to circle location based (like CoA, RoA)
- Unflinching Aim: ranged powers deal 10/15/20/25/30% more damage and 4/8/12/16/20% of your power is granted as critical strike
- Bottomless quiver: additionally Rain of Arrow has 50% shorter cool down
- Rising focus: now stacks 5 times, additionally, Aimed Shot instead of being canceled when you get hit you need 0.35/0.30/0.25/0.20/0.15 extra time to charge
- Stillness of the forest: additionally reduces cool down for marauders scape in 30/35/40/45/50%
- Predator: 50% more damage on prey, ranged critical strikes on prey reduces ranged cool downs on 0.5 seconds.
Any suggestion to Pathfinder is welcome, all the numbers used are for show since I cannot test them in game.Amen. Let's hope a change comes soon, because living out a life of an Archery HR, which can't really play an Archer at all, in both PvP and PvE, is just.. shameful. Dreadful.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
When I started NW, I chose the Archery path. I've always been a distance fighter, and I played solo for most of the content to level 60. As I got closer to 60, it was becoming near impossible to play solo, and I had only a healer companion for most of the game. I picked up some friends and a guild at one point, started partying together for the 60-70 stretch, but I still died. A. LOT.
PvP was just as impossible, and I still don't play it much (quest has been at 2/4 for weeks).
I ultimately respec'd to a trapper just because I wanted to contribute to a fight, or be able to make it to an epic boss without being kicked.
Archery would be my preferred play style, but without some major damage increases and maybe encounter cooldown changes, it is definitely not a path for solo play anywhere but the lower level content, and even then, you need to be a glutton for some punishment
Thats plain overpowered, i dont mind the 40% dmg increse but 125% wepon dmg who crits 2/3 of the atacks anyways and does 50% piercing dmg along that, that would be even more Op that trapper is ATM
In other words you stand in one place, spam aimed shot, when you hit you crit ( always ), you crit for idk like 200% critical sevierity with vorpal + prey + 50% wepon dmg = most skill required path ever!