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The economy is more than Astral Diamonds
angrysprite
Member Posts: 4,982 Arc User
[Please do not debate the Gateway/Leadership scenario here, there are other threads for that.]
Though it is *greatly hoped* Cryptic Staff will see this thread, I am proffering it for community discussion and ideas concerning the state of the Neverwinter economy and I get the strongest impression the economy is broken and I don't mean Astral Diamonds. I believe the Astral Diamond situation is the result of the problem, not the cause of it.
Here is how I see the economy as broken - and I am attempting to give the perspective of the ‘average’ player of the game, even though I’ve been here since even ‘before’ the beginning (Alpha/Closed beta time frame).
Ever since day one I’ve found playing and leveling up in Neverwinter to be a bit of a slog; gear and item drops and loot always seem to be lagging behind in terms of quality and capability for wherever the player is at, content-wise.
The asynchronous leveling (player versus loot) is far worse now than it ever has been. For example: If a player never purchases gear or items from the Auction House they are at a massive disadvantage against standard content (not even including extra-curricular content like Skirmishes and Dungeons, etc.)
Even if the player purchased gear and items from NPC Vendors, such as zone currency vendors and even Ardent Coin gear - the player is already far out-leveled that gear by the time they have earned enough of the required currency to purchase it which renders the very effort useless and moot.
To earn gear and items (such as high-ranked enchantments and other “basic” items) requires the optional extra-curricular efforts such as Skirmishes and Dungeon runs, etc, where they are barely equipped well enough to be able to finish and other players eject them from the party for the same reason. This makes acquiring desirable (sometimes 'required') gear frustrating at best. So let us, for now, put these extra content options (Skirmishes and Dungeons) to the side for the sake of discussion.
Hence the average player is forced to rely on the Auction House or player-to-player trading in order to acquire even decent gear to match the current zone content that player level is paired-up with.
The Auction House requires Astral Diamonds. The ability to earn or generate Astral Diamonds legitimately (I do not condone illegitimate methods) is ridiculously limited in methods to do so and in time-frame required and amount earned. The Leadership Profession takes a ludicrously long time to level-up to where it can become an Astral Diamond generator for anyone, and even then the generation takes so long for so little return.
In short: the very reason so much Astral Diamonds are required has directly to do with the ability of the player to maintain an even keel of earning appropriate equipment and enhancement items on par with the current player “Skill Level” by only playing official developer content.
This leads the player to either give-up and move on to entertainment outside of Neverwinter or to find alternative ways to obtain the gear and items he needs just to continue playing the official content. I believe this is the genesis of the root of the problem (in over-simplified terms, perhaps).
Certainly the Developer wants players to purchase Zen Points to advance their characters and there’s nothing wrong with that (profit is not a bad word, folks). Though it is often claimed, however, that Neverwinter is a 100% free-to-play game with zero content-gates, meaning a player never has to spend any real money to play the game to it’s end.
Except that this unequal leveling between player and gear/items obtainable through normal play is itself a content-gate. It becomes a “paywall” that requires the spending of currency, either virtual (as in Astral Diamonds) or real (as in Zen Points) - The paywall is becoming higher and thicker because of the increasing difficulty of earning said currency in-game through normal game-play without spending legal tender to 'accelerate' acquisition. Perhaps this is working as intended (and that’s okay, but if it is at least admit it outright and call the duck a duck and admit it is not a swan).
The economy is broken not because of Astral Diamond farming by bots. The economy is broken because it is so damned difficult to equip the average player with needed gear and items (needed just to survive zone content in some cases) that he must spend so much Astral Diamonds.
And because he needs so much Astral Diamonds so much faster than he can possibly earn it in game he turns to the Astral Diamond farmers. Because so many feel the need to turn to the Astral Diamond farmers more people start farming Astral Diamonds. Because more people are farming Astral Diamonds there comes a glut of Astral Diamonds in-game.
And the cycle feeds on itself.
TL;DR:
My idea: Make it easier (more frequent in terms of loot) to obtain the gear I need to play the game. You’ve increased NPC damage by so much it’s become ridiculous to even attempt plain zone mobs without “Best in Slot” equipment. It’s becoming far too difficult to obtain that equipment through normal play. (I know: paraphrased hyperbole, but you get my point.)
And I’m not even mentioning things like Artifact-based gear.
How about including as rare mob drops things like rank 7 enchantments? Or a lot more blue-gear that actually works for my class? (I seem to be getting drops that are only one in three that are for my own class.)
I see the problem as this: rewards for anything from Zone Mobs all the way to epic Dungeon Delves are paltry at best, an insult at worst. I shouldn't feel like I have to rely on the Auction House to gear-up my character.
And feeling a need to rely on the Auction House to get decent (read: required) gear for character that matches the same level of content I’ve reached through normal play - well, I am with the impression that is the root of the problem.
@Community: How can this vicious cycle be broken? I don’t blame the Devs and staff for doing what they are doing, they’re trying, but everything is an experiment. Without ever being able to see the big picture the way they can, what is your perspective?
What ideas do you have?
Okay, my diatribe is done. Perhaps it's all hot-air; it doesn't matter. It's off my chest and I feel better now.
EDIT: correcting autocorrupt spelling, etc.
EDIT TO CLARIFY: Great comments so far from everyone. Allow me to clarify: when I say "Player leveling" - I am referring to a player leveling from 1 - the tutorial- all the way up to level 70. Certainly the process from 1 to 60 is okay, and as painful a grind as it may be, the Elemental Evil zones do provide decent enough gear for the Sharandar zone and going forward. But the real problem comes with the enchantment/enhancements issue. But that sudden cliff players hit when they reach 68-70 is where it hurts the most, I suspect.
To prove my point: look at all the comments in this and every other thread about gear or enhancements and almost every solution proffered includes "Buy it from the AH". To me this is the problem, and more or less the primary point I am trying to make. When the first answer we toss out "SPEND MONEY" (it doesn't matter if real or virtual) then there is a mindset issue; a problem in the way we have come to think of the problem to begin with.
Thank you all for keeping this a discussion, rather than a debate. Discussions are healthier.
Though it is *greatly hoped* Cryptic Staff will see this thread, I am proffering it for community discussion and ideas concerning the state of the Neverwinter economy and I get the strongest impression the economy is broken and I don't mean Astral Diamonds. I believe the Astral Diamond situation is the result of the problem, not the cause of it.
Here is how I see the economy as broken - and I am attempting to give the perspective of the ‘average’ player of the game, even though I’ve been here since even ‘before’ the beginning (Alpha/Closed beta time frame).
Ever since day one I’ve found playing and leveling up in Neverwinter to be a bit of a slog; gear and item drops and loot always seem to be lagging behind in terms of quality and capability for wherever the player is at, content-wise.
The asynchronous leveling (player versus loot) is far worse now than it ever has been. For example: If a player never purchases gear or items from the Auction House they are at a massive disadvantage against standard content (not even including extra-curricular content like Skirmishes and Dungeons, etc.)
Even if the player purchased gear and items from NPC Vendors, such as zone currency vendors and even Ardent Coin gear - the player is already far out-leveled that gear by the time they have earned enough of the required currency to purchase it which renders the very effort useless and moot.
To earn gear and items (such as high-ranked enchantments and other “basic” items) requires the optional extra-curricular efforts such as Skirmishes and Dungeon runs, etc, where they are barely equipped well enough to be able to finish and other players eject them from the party for the same reason. This makes acquiring desirable (sometimes 'required') gear frustrating at best. So let us, for now, put these extra content options (Skirmishes and Dungeons) to the side for the sake of discussion.
Hence the average player is forced to rely on the Auction House or player-to-player trading in order to acquire even decent gear to match the current zone content that player level is paired-up with.
The Auction House requires Astral Diamonds. The ability to earn or generate Astral Diamonds legitimately (I do not condone illegitimate methods) is ridiculously limited in methods to do so and in time-frame required and amount earned. The Leadership Profession takes a ludicrously long time to level-up to where it can become an Astral Diamond generator for anyone, and even then the generation takes so long for so little return.
In short: the very reason so much Astral Diamonds are required has directly to do with the ability of the player to maintain an even keel of earning appropriate equipment and enhancement items on par with the current player “Skill Level” by only playing official developer content.
This leads the player to either give-up and move on to entertainment outside of Neverwinter or to find alternative ways to obtain the gear and items he needs just to continue playing the official content. I believe this is the genesis of the root of the problem (in over-simplified terms, perhaps).
Certainly the Developer wants players to purchase Zen Points to advance their characters and there’s nothing wrong with that (profit is not a bad word, folks). Though it is often claimed, however, that Neverwinter is a 100% free-to-play game with zero content-gates, meaning a player never has to spend any real money to play the game to it’s end.
Except that this unequal leveling between player and gear/items obtainable through normal play is itself a content-gate. It becomes a “paywall” that requires the spending of currency, either virtual (as in Astral Diamonds) or real (as in Zen Points) - The paywall is becoming higher and thicker because of the increasing difficulty of earning said currency in-game through normal game-play without spending legal tender to 'accelerate' acquisition. Perhaps this is working as intended (and that’s okay, but if it is at least admit it outright and call the duck a duck and admit it is not a swan).
The economy is broken not because of Astral Diamond farming by bots. The economy is broken because it is so damned difficult to equip the average player with needed gear and items (needed just to survive zone content in some cases) that he must spend so much Astral Diamonds.
And because he needs so much Astral Diamonds so much faster than he can possibly earn it in game he turns to the Astral Diamond farmers. Because so many feel the need to turn to the Astral Diamond farmers more people start farming Astral Diamonds. Because more people are farming Astral Diamonds there comes a glut of Astral Diamonds in-game.
And the cycle feeds on itself.
TL;DR:
- Problem root: Players rapidly out-level any loot or rewards that are of equivalent quality needed for the content he is playing.
- Players forced to turn to AH to acquired gear needed to play some zone content (even before Skirmish/Dungeon)
- Players earning/generation AD is ridiculously slow for the amount earned/generated.
- Players turn to bots/farmers for AD
- Bot-farmers are profitable - they keep at it.
- Rinse and repeat.
My idea: Make it easier (more frequent in terms of loot) to obtain the gear I need to play the game. You’ve increased NPC damage by so much it’s become ridiculous to even attempt plain zone mobs without “Best in Slot” equipment. It’s becoming far too difficult to obtain that equipment through normal play. (I know: paraphrased hyperbole, but you get my point.)
And I’m not even mentioning things like Artifact-based gear.
How about including as rare mob drops things like rank 7 enchantments? Or a lot more blue-gear that actually works for my class? (I seem to be getting drops that are only one in three that are for my own class.)
I see the problem as this: rewards for anything from Zone Mobs all the way to epic Dungeon Delves are paltry at best, an insult at worst. I shouldn't feel like I have to rely on the Auction House to gear-up my character.
And feeling a need to rely on the Auction House to get decent (read: required) gear for character that matches the same level of content I’ve reached through normal play - well, I am with the impression that is the root of the problem.
@Community: How can this vicious cycle be broken? I don’t blame the Devs and staff for doing what they are doing, they’re trying, but everything is an experiment. Without ever being able to see the big picture the way they can, what is your perspective?
What ideas do you have?
Okay, my diatribe is done. Perhaps it's all hot-air; it doesn't matter. It's off my chest and I feel better now.
EDIT: correcting autocorrupt spelling, etc.
EDIT TO CLARIFY: Great comments so far from everyone. Allow me to clarify: when I say "Player leveling" - I am referring to a player leveling from 1 - the tutorial- all the way up to level 70. Certainly the process from 1 to 60 is okay, and as painful a grind as it may be, the Elemental Evil zones do provide decent enough gear for the Sharandar zone and going forward. But the real problem comes with the enchantment/enhancements issue. But that sudden cliff players hit when they reach 68-70 is where it hurts the most, I suspect.
To prove my point: look at all the comments in this and every other thread about gear or enhancements and almost every solution proffered includes "Buy it from the AH". To me this is the problem, and more or less the primary point I am trying to make. When the first answer we toss out "SPEND MONEY" (it doesn't matter if real or virtual) then there is a mindset issue; a problem in the way we have come to think of the problem to begin with.
Thank you all for keeping this a discussion, rather than a debate. Discussions are healthier.
iBooks - http://j.mp/WPFFj1 and PDF - http://j.mp/1o2L7qy
Post edited by angrysprite on
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Comments
Amen to this. In the whole scheme of "End Game" things, this is what keeps players from being able to get the POWER they need to progress. RP/Coal Wards/GMOPS. Actual "Gear" has less of an economic impact. Hell, I am sporting all blue Lifesteal gear bought cheap (saving Seals for Mod7/8 upgrades). My Artifacts, Enchants, etc "cost" me a fortune in Time/AD/ZEN.
EDIT: almost forgot...GREAT POST ANGYSPRITE.
It changes once the gear drops start having enchantment slots; as a player with l.70s sitting around invoking I'm able to mail R5 chants to the new account that will make the 25-60 levels pretty easy regardless of gear quality/level. A new player doesn't have that; on the other hand R5s are so cheap at the AH now that a new player who gets leadership up and running can afford them easily. And a stack MOPs sells for ~150K AD now I think (maybe less already?) so leveling those to R7 isn't such an obstacle. MOPs are so cheap a new player doesn't really even need wards from the ZEN store - just burn the MOPs.
With seals I recall I used to auction the zone currencies and use the AD to buy currencies from higher zones so I could grab anything useful from the higher zone seal vendor as soon as I got there. But I wouldn't even bother doing that now when I can upgrade chants so cheaply.
In summary, given how easy 1-60 content is and how cheap chants (R5-R7) and refining stones are, I don't see gear drops as a real problem in the 1-60 game. The 60-70 game (artifact gear, R12s, etc) is another story and I think there's a couple of threads on the forum about that.
The problem that I see... based on their past extremely, heavy-handed actions... is that once the experiment has been proven to be a bad choice... they refuse to remove it. Sorry... they don't refuse, they just don't reverse the changes. Which no longer makes it an experiment but a QoL change that in the long run will destroy the game. I am eluding the the 25% decrease in damage dealt by mobs, and the added balancing buff of a 50% increase in their HP... and quite a few other "experimental" things they tried. Many of them are still in place and they have not been adjusted or removed.
From the 1-60 leveling, one of the issues regarding gear that drove me nuts was related to professions. What is the point of only being able to craft green level items with no enchantment slots? Most gear you loot whilst leveling have these slots from about level 15 onward, so why not crafted items as well?
At level 60 progressing to Mod 6 leveling content, the gear gap is like hitting a wall. Players at that time need to be able to gain a decent level of gear reasonably easily. They cannot craft it (see above), so at the moment they either have to go to AH or buy it from WoD quartermaster with campaign tokens that they probably won't have been able to gain enough of! I feel there needs to be a better option here, particularly given how useless the leveling zone seals are.
As for refinement, would it not be an idea to have mop's and gmop's as quest rewards for finishing zones? Most of the times I find the current end rewards to be of little use, especially when they are enchants that aren't favourable for the class/path I am taking. The other suggestion for quest rewards would be identification scrolls - for the most part, buying them with AD is a complete waste, to the extent that most of the identifiable gear I find gets sold without identification. This upsets the (slight!) OCD side of me, not to mention takes the fun out of finding loot as well.
For me, getting Coal Wards isn't too much of an issue. They are sold by the Tarmalune Trade Merchant for 200 bars. As I normally end up opening around 20 lockboxes a month, I find I have enough bars to purchase a ward when I feel the need to. I agree with others though that there should be a way for newer players to gain a couple when they reach level 60 - maybe as an extra boa reward from doing the Minsc quests for the first time?
I only buy keys when I get a coupon, and then only because there's a half-decent chance that whatever comes out of the box, I can sell on the AH for roughly the (discounted) price of the key.
I have found professions to be very disappointing in NW. I don't expect to be able to craft BiS gear (that should come from dungeons) but I do expect to be able to craft useful gear without having to spend $RL to do it. I can happily grind away at crafting if I see a point to it but I see little point in NW. As you observed, random drops are better than crafted gear unless you spend up big on crafting. Unless you're going to make a 'business' out of producing shirts and pants then Leadership is really the only thing worth bothering with. Some people say that jewel-crafting for rings is worthwhile but I haven't tried it and I don't know what sort of investment they've made for it to be useful.
I just sell all mats on the AH without blinking and use the AD to buy other stuff. If that's stupid then no doubt someone will tell me.