I think some ppl here compare apples with oranges.
A 2.5k OP can get killed by 3.5k+ CWs or bleed points against opressor CWs, yes.
The other guy wrote about a premade v premade fight between top PvP guilds. Their IL is most likely 3.5-4k, OP included. Their OPs are near to immortal. Even if you team up on them and get them to 30% HP with their heals, THP etc on CD after a few minutes, they wont die bc it is a premade fight and it most likely goes like this in TS: OP: 'they teamed up on me, need some help' Faithful DC: 'one second.' DC runs to OP, procs feat. OP: 'OK all dandy, see you in another 10 minutes.'
BTW, I had the same combo a few days ago, when I got qued with a PvP semipremade. Enemy had 2 DCs, OP etc. We fought for something like a hour and I got DCed, score was at ca. 700 for either team. I dont mind long fights. My best matches have been taking ca. 45 min, bc the teams were balanced and knew tactics, but to fight for more than an hour with no end in sight and the ony way to end it is, to hope for a DC, a team to quit or a player to take a bathroom break is no fun.
Ok.. some thing from some of you..another blabla..
1) fighting a paladin is boring only for dc and paladin, because no one will kill the other ( excepting sometime a paladin die )
2) paladin got more than 3 skill, dont even think we only use 3 of them
3)tab, tab, tab, banish, tab tab, templar's wrath, tab tab repeat... ok
but the other class will always use the same kind of rotation during a fight, it's not paladin's privilege
4) banish? on a pvp? come on..
5) if you don't wanna some tactic on an mmorpg, let me suggest to play some fps instead of it
6) Once again, if a paladin can hold an entire team, it means that the player are terrible bad player ( for non being able to kill him and for not going on the other points)
7) playing against a paladin degenerate into a BRB moment, if you are a dc or a paladin with egal gears, maybe, if not, you will have to fight for your life against a real player
8) i agree that we shouldnt be able to have 2 paladin in same team, last pvp i made ( true story, you like this sentence ), i fought :
- 2 dc + 2 gf + 1 gwf ( all bis )
Troll comp arent always made with paladin, so stop with this arguement, it's worth peanuts
It never ended because of maintenance but after 40 min it was 700 for them 600 for us
9) You are on page 5 with 2.5k , good for ya, im on page 2 and nobody can kill me 1 vs 1, it doesnt makes me feel like god ( like i was page 10 1 week ago), i just do my job, but i loose like everyone, and rank means absolutly nothing about the players
10) myth about immortality, again, if you know your char and have the right build, you can survive to a paladin, if 2 of your team know their char and have the right build, they can kill any paladin
11) i will say it again, Top Tr dies less than Top paladin, can tank ( in a different way ) an entire team too
12) i think that i will not say something wrong but, i made few pvp till a year, and i never saw anyone immortal excepting the one who goes off the map
13) what is wrong is not the paladin, but the matchmaking ( and some of you.)
Ya well I'll disagree with several points here because I guess I can make certain encounters work to my advantage situationally (i.e. banishment). Your point about every class using tab in a fight is valid, but consider the outrage if TR's could have a capstone that would replenish their encounters every time they pressed tab. Imagine the ITC rage? The problem here lies with the fact that the paladin can spam tab up to 3 times (I'm at level 66, I think it increases to 4 at 70?) and get the benefits of reducing cooldowns 3 times in a row.
And just because other classes (like HR's) are broken in a similar manner, doesn't mean that it's still valid for paladins to be broken as well as your argument is stating. This is a "2 wrongs don't make a right" maxim.
As far as the leaderboards are concerned. Pre-level 70 pvp means nothing to me as builds change once you get to 70. I assume you haven't gotten to 70 yet since you are on the leaderboard as well. I don't know what page someone is on has anything to do with this discussion as the difference between page 2 and 5 is a difference of 2 close matches against the right teams. Congrats I guess.
I do agree with several other points you made though, namely limiting comps in pvp and what its like facing off against another paladin.
I am not gonna bother explaining things into details to you, cus you obviously like to assume things which doesn't make you look very smart.
A few things to prove you obviously dont THINK before you TALK.
Team A - 2 OP, 1 DC, GWF, TR
Team B - 2 OP, 2 DC, 1 TR (1 DC is DPS)
(Most players in that game are within top 10 NCL page, a few were within first 3 pages, needless to say their gear and premade experience.) So where is your CW and how do you Repel in this fight, Mr. Brain Dead...?
Oh, now there is better, you quoted " In worst case scenario you can make it a tie." Oh yea, how do you end a game with a "Tie"? Are you a bad player or just someone that doesn't know what he's talking about....?
So now you assume my "Play Style" and "Mindset of Winning only by killing others" Did I say that, or where did you get that from...? Also, what makes you think anyone in the team was chasing after OP Tank? So you assume-after-assume but did not get one single thing right....?
Enough said, I only see someone that is not very smart but loves to assume things, Mr Brain-dead.
Everyone is seeing a problem here... except players that plays a certain class.... guess which...?
If OP cannot buff/absorb dmg/heal for his team but for himself only, then I guess there would be less complains, but with a highly geared OP standing on one node, and people being unable to take them as well as anyone next to them down, that doesn't sound very fair...
Now OP are saying 'If you have this class and that class combined, then you can kill OP', and how are we going to expect having BOTH very specific classes available that are also Geared Enough to take down the OP...? (yes a 4K+ OP can survive 2~3 x 3k+ CW/TR/HR, no problem, unless you send more than half of your team (3 people+) otherwise there is no chance of killing the OP... oh and if the OP team has a DC or another OP.. then you can forget about killing him...) now, sending half of your team on an OP... what's going to happen to two other nodes... when there are 4 other ppl whacking 1~2 of your members... the result is very obvious...?
The problem is not as simple as not being able to take down OP 1 vs 1, the fact is you need to have the Right Class Combination that are Geared Enough and know what they are doing to have the chance to take down OP... and the chance of this in a pug team vsing a 4k OP is....? yea, we all know... again like said above, even if you have 5 players ganking on the OP, as long as there is a DC or OP right next to the one you are ganking... there is still no chance u r gonna kill him..... I think Dragon Bait's first 170 NCL DOM matches with only 2 death explains a lot....
Paladin is OP not just because how well they can survive, but also how ridiciously they make the people around them near invicible, and if there is a DC for the OP... you might as well forget about it..
True story is, last week there was a Premade vs Premade DOM from two Big PvP guilds, the players in the game consist of 4 OP, 3 DC, 3 DPS.... and guess what... that game lasted 1Hours 45 Minutes, almost nobody died in the game, and people only decided to call off after someone got disconnected by the server... I don't think anyone would think this kinda PvP is fun...? Its really a patience test, see who gets bored and decides to quit first....
And no, if that someone did not get disconnected, the game could last another few more hours....
You're either brain dead or just bad player. You dont need to seen god knows how many players to kill enemy tank, because even one 2k item lvl CW can win that fight with repel spam. In worst case scenario you can make it a tie.
Playing against OP tank might be boring, not only for you but for the OP as well. Most of OP tanks would gladly trade some survivality for non buggy shift and GF burst, so we can 3-shot everyone instead of stare at them.
lol have you even seen him play? he is near bis gwf who owns everyone and is in purple dragons. prob pretty high up on the ncl leaderboard also. you should think before you start talking <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. if hes such a bad player then 1v1 him WITHOUT a pally. pally's are op stop pretending its not just because you play it.
I didnt judge his play style or character but what he wrote. His mindset of winnig the game only by killing others speak for itselfs. Anybody with some decent pvp experience will not waste his time trying to kill geared OP tank. They will either send a CW or tie on that one point and try to win elsewhere.
Only noobs spend several mins chasing OP tank and trying to kill him while enemy team is winning on 2 other points. I'd even say that OP tank add some depth to the game, because it often encourage entire team to rotate and switch abilities depending on enemy rotation.
Problems starts only when there's more than 1 tank and healer per team, but that's matchmaking issue.
This is matchmaking issue, not class balance problem. Also even if you tie on 3 flags, you still get points (depending on who's controling the point) but in a lot slower rate, like 1 point per 120s or so.
Even full BIS 5k OP will die to 1 TR with frist strike + SE and 1 CW or some other class with good CC. SE with first strike on a BIS geared TR will do about 120k+ and then it's quite easy to finish. As it is, OP wont have perma CC immunity so it's a matter of good timing.
I assume you haven't gotten to 70 yet since you are on the leaderboard as well
lol? ( sorry, that was cynical..)
banishement, is totally/absolutly useless on pvp excepting against impressionable players..
About tr, they already have something for resplnish their stealth, but i was talking about a rotation, everyone during a pvp will fight with 3 encounter 2 at will and 1 or 2 daily, without changing it until the end, will do exactly same rotation against all ( it's not paladin's privilege )
Paladin have almost itc as well ( difference is that we cannot hit while cc immune )
Difference in page means nothing, it's exactly what i said.
DC can be cleared through focused CC when out of EaS if you have enough DPS. So you look at the ground, count the seconds, when EaS is about to disappear you CC and burst.
The problem with Paladins is that the class is also not just VERY tanky, but mechanics are fluff puffypuff quite unclear. You see the guy walking around, spamming stuff, regenerating his temporary HP endlessly, or taking 0000000 damage.
"Send a CW to repel" might work, but the point is that it just underline the issue: inability to clear geared paladins even with multiple players. You're basically saying: you can't kill him. So just stall and push him away. What if there's no CW in team?
So instead of yelling at people, Paladins could do like some mod3 GWF did, or some TR did, and so on, and clearly explain when and how focus, what are the powers and what they do. Would be a good start, don't you think guys...
As for me, i think problem with current heal tanks is that you can have a chance to clear them only dishing out an unholy amount of CC, while there should be the option to out-DPS their healing when 2v1.
If they can't kill anyone 1v1, then they should not die 1v1. But die 2v1, slowly. 3v1 faster. 4v1 fast. 5v1 FAST. This is the golden rule for balance.
Issue is, balancing PvP while not breaking them in PvE, where they are quite precious assets.
as i wrote in this thread http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1193808/general-issues-with-pvp the issue is not with how tanky paladin is (paladin isnt that tanky, attack afk one and hell go down fast) issue is that in neverwinter damage doesnt stick, paladin is just better suited to use those mechanics and have access to all 3 of them(temphp, heal, shield), also there isnt such thing as mana that normally regulate sustain over longer period of time
healing depression should affect shields, hp and heals(currently i dont think lay on hands is affected by it, wrote a topic in bug section) and healing depression should be increased by a shitton.
total power(sum of stuff like tankiness/cc/dps/etc.) of paladin isnt higher than that of other classes, its just the way paladin works isnt fun in pvp, at least if there are multiple ones
and if paladin survivability is nerfed for pvp so it can be killed in 1v1 paladin damage should be increased some 3x(to smth higher than gf since gf have cc), so pala can kill smth also, else the class will be much worse than SW, but then the whining gang of morons will cry that paladin is op because it 1shots their noob <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
DC can be cleared through focused CC when out of EaS if you have enough DPS. So you look at the ground, count the seconds, when EaS is about to disappear you CC and burst.
The problem with Paladins is that the class is also not just VERY tanky, but mechanics are fluff puffypuff quite unclear. You see the guy walking around, spamming stuff, regenerating his temporary HP endlessly, or taking 0000000 damage.
"Send a CW to repel" might work, but the point is that it just underline the issue: inability to clear geared paladins even with multiple players. You're basically saying: you can't kill him. So just stall and push him away. What if there's no CW in team?
So instead of yelling at people, Paladins could do like some mod3 GWF did, or some TR did, and so on, and clearly explain when and how focus, what are the powers and what they do. Would be a good start, don't you think guys...
As for me, i think problem with current heal tanks is that you can have a chance to clear them only dishing out an unholy amount of CC, while there should be the option to out-DPS their healing when 2v1.
If they can't kill anyone 1v1, then they should not die 1v1. But die 2v1, slowly. 3v1 faster. 4v1 fast. 5v1 FAST. This is the golden rule for balance.
Issue is, balancing PvP while not breaking them in PvE, where they are quite precious assets.
I assume you haven't gotten to 70 yet since you are on the leaderboard as well
lol? ( sorry, that was cynical..)
banishement, is totally/absolutly useless on pvp excepting against impressionable players..
About tr, they already have something for resplnish their stealth, but i was talking about a rotation, everyone during a pvp will fight with 3 encounter 2 at will and 1 or 2 daily, without changing it until the end, will do exactly same rotation against all ( it's not paladin's privilege )
Paladin have almost itc as well ( difference is that we cannot hit while cc immune )
Difference in page means nothing, it's exactly what i said.
I'm not going to debate the point with you as obviously you have your mind set. You therefore, must be correct. You win.
I call BS any OP regardless of IL can be CCed down in quickly, just like any other class except TR since you have to see one to CC it:),and it has to be not dodging which never happens TR have the best defense of all classes by farrr. they are untochable with some skill on their part.
Now a HR, TR, or SW,HR, TR CW, or any 2 Control classes will own any Paly Build at all, and any other dps in the vacintiy and 10-15 sec OP is dead.
OP Is the worst PvP classes by far, all you hear is why cant i kill one, when you should be asking why would i need to bother killing it anyway, it cant do anything to help win a game, Node holder yea right not gonna happen, cant kill hardly anyone of the same gear level, party buffs not necessary.
Cant hold a node by yourself it always be contested, if they have a Paly, TR, CW, DC, GF, and we all know those classes are never in PvP..lol.
Most premade run 3-4 CC and a Dps plate class or DC, making Paly's irrelevant in PvP, Which I believe is what Cryptic wanted for the class to be PvE only class as OP, and OD can go either route.
I call BS any OP regardless of IL can be CCed down in quickly, just like any other class except TR since you have to see one to CC it:),and it has to be not dodging which never happens TR have the best defense of all classes by farrr. they are untochable with some skill on their part.
Now a HR, TR, or SW,HR, TR CW, or any 2 Control classes will own any Paly Build at all, and any other dps in the vacintiy and 10-15 sec OP is dead.
OP Is the worst PvP classes by far, all you hear is why cant i kill one, when you should be asking why would i need to bother killing it anyway, it cant do anything to help win a game, Node holder yea right not gonna happen, cant kill hardly anyone of the same gear level, party buffs not necessary.
Cant hold a node by yourself it always be contested, if they have a Paly, TR, CW, DC, GF, and we all know those classes are never in PvP..lol.
Most premade run 3-4 CC and a Dps plate class or DC, making Paly's irrelevant in PvP, Which I believe is what Cryptic wanted for the class to be PvE only class as OP, and OD can go either route.
Just going to chime in here briefly to make a few statements...
1. PvP Domination really should have a limit of 1 Class per team. No doubling up.
2. Any changes to OP in PvP (and for all classes for that matter) that isn't a Bug Fix, and is more a balancing change for PvP, needs to be made independent of (and not impact) PvE.
*ninja dodges return fire, and returns to his PvE adventures*
True story is OP needs bug fixes 1st, because people are exploiting bugged mechanics, thats all. You are trying to ruin skills that arent broken, leaving insanely exploitable mechanic alone.
DCs have a bugged mechanic as well - guess why you cant do anything to OP + DC combo?
P.S. Top 1000 players in NCL - just 148 OPs. Doesnt sound like a broken class
1000/8 classes in the game should mean there are 125 people of every class top 1000. 148 seems OP, 23 more than the fair share they should have. Lets all pout and nerf a class which cant dps down into the ground. If they get the defense nerfed then up the damage they do, or would it be safe to say no matter what gets done to them, no one will ever be happy?
Most of you are ignoring the real issue: the Justice tree and how it interacts with Enchantments/Class Features/Encounters.
Any Protection Paladin that isn't abusing the way the Justice tree works and interacts with other things is not immortal. I don't care if they can chain Divine Protector twice and make it last 40 seconds, its nowhere near as <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> annoying as the Justice Tree. If they're getting their whole team to be immortal then you and your team are idiots for trying to fight 5 people at a time under DP, they gave you the game on a platter.
Most of your problems with Paladins, and the reason CC works so <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> well against them, is that the ones that stick out like a sore thumb are abusing Binding Oath and the Justice Tree. At one point the Justice Tree was resetting artifact cooldowns as well. On my Devotion OP I realized this and switched to Light because being able to spam Artifacts was BROKEN.
Again, the people that are making Oathbound Paladins appear to be immortal and REQUIRE a class that PERFECTLY times its CC (Like Control Wizards) are using and abusing the broken Justice tree. Without the broken Justice tree interactions with other things the Paladin is much easier to deal with and cannot tank you forever.
Macjae, the issue might me essentially that. Only way to deal with healing tanks right now is heavy cc. We are left a bit out of options. You either basically prevent the tank healer (DC or OP) from doing anything till you killed him, or you will not kill him. It's heavy cc, nothing else. Some cc and high damage? With no cc, you can have 5 gwfs hitting a pally or DC and he will not even budge.
Also, as you mentioned above, a tank DC or pally in pvp can be like that and also provide enough support to make his team mates unkillable. So often it cuts out the option to focus the other guy and kill the healer later.
Only option is slot as much cc as you can, heavy cc the healer and hope it is enough.
Trapper + TR works best imho. HR trapper has best cc in whole game. TR has smoke bomb, dazes and piercing. Worst class vs DC/pally is gwf. Not enough cc. Can work if supported by HR trapper with heavy cc.
Can you explain a bit how animations and pally stuff work, what we should look at, when fighting them? I can't roll a pally. How much are cooldowns on powers?
Just going to chime in here briefly to make a few statements...
1. PvP Domination really should have a limit of 1 Class per team. No doubling up.
2. Any changes to OP in PvP (and for all classes for that matter) that isn't a Bug Fix, and is more a balancing change for PvP, needs to be made independent of (and not impact) PvE.
*ninja dodges return fire, and returns to his PvE adventures*
1. there are not enough ppl pvping for that, i tried to do some pvp yesterday, in every of 3 games there were just some scrubs in trash/pve gear
2. why, damage 3x buff for survivability nerf should be in pve also
3.
True story is OP needs bug fixes 1st, because people are exploiting bugged mechanics, thats all. You are trying to ruin skills that arent broken, leaving insanely exploitable mechanic alone.
DCs have a bugged mechanic as well - guess why you cant do anything to OP + DC combo?
P.S. Top 1000 players in NCL - just 148 OPs. Doesnt sound like a broken class
1000/8 classes in the game should mean there are 125 people of every class top 1000. 148 seems OP, 23 more than the fair share they should have. Lets all pout and nerf a class which cant dps down into the ground. If they get the defense nerfed then up the damage they do, or would it be safe to say no matter what gets done to them, no one will ever be happy?
say that to trs and cws, considering OP is a new class its just normal that more ppl are playing it
ncl top1000 by class
TR-253
GF-92
HR-100
CW-186
SW-16
GWF-76
OP-159
DC-118
So few GWFs left.....
SWs on the brink of extinction...
imho its more because of mod4/5, and how expensive it is to be a good gwf, bis ones seem to be quite strong, but it does suck playing a class that doesnt have any good cc
say that to trs and cws, considering OP is a new class its just normal that more ppl are playing it
ncl top1000 by class
TR-253
GF-92
HR-100
CW-186
SW-16
GWF-76
OP-159
DC-118
We are talking about top 1000, so ppl should have decent gear and a full set of boons. CWs are one of the first classes and the one with most players. TRs are a PvP powerhouse and have been fotm last season.
OPs, well there are a few BIS OPs and the rest has no problem to reach top 10 pages with 2.5k-ish IL. Try that with a GWF. My GWF had 22k+ GS in Mod 5. Now he has 2.7k IL, leg. mainhand, 4 leg. artiefacts, epic offhand and lvl 60 leg artefact gear. To make him viable for PvP I would have to change weapon and armour enchant, get LOL set etc. Long story short, drop some 30+ million ADs into a char that will be decent at best for PvP or drop another 30 million AD, to make him BIS, while a OP is playable with much less investment.
kind of low ilvl, i have 2.9k on my pala without any legendary stuff, full epics, r7&r8 + perfect&pure
you dont need all that stuff, i kicked plenty of rear on my gwf with legendary weapon, blue artifact gear and epic artifacts, no lol set either, some 2.5k ilvl, the only reason im not playing gwf more is that i cant afford enchants for 2 characters, switching is a pita, and PF isnt that good for gwf
say that to trs and cws, considering OP is a new class its just normal that more ppl are playing it
ncl top1000 by class
TR-253
GF-92
HR-100
CW-186
SW-16
GWF-76
OP-159
DC-118
We are talking about top 1000, so ppl should have decent gear and a full set of boons. CWs are one of the first classes and the one with most players. TRs are a PvP powerhouse and have been fotm last season.
OPs, well there are a few BIS OPs and the rest has no problem to reach top 10 pages with 2.5k-ish IL. Try that with a GWF. My GWF had 22k+ GS in Mod 5. Now he has 2.7k IL, leg. mainhand, 4 leg. artiefacts, epic offhand and lvl 60 leg artefact gear. To make him viable for PvP I would have to change weapon and armour enchant, get LOL set etc. Long story short, drop some 30+ million ADs into a char that will be decent at best for PvP or drop another 30 million AD, to make him BIS, while a OP is playable with much less investment.
You can get in to top 10 pages with 2.5k GWF, as long as you got perfect negation and some decent weapon enchant. Itemlvl itself doesnt show the real power and survivality value.
You can get in to top 10 pages with 2.5k GWF, as long as you got perfect negation and some decent weapon enchant. Itemlvl itself doesnt show the real power and survivality value.
As I said, armor and weapon enchant, thats 15-30 million on its own (I used p. vorp and p. barkshield, now I would need feytouched and negation).
All my chars have a full PvP set and between 2.4-3.6k IL, all with perf. weapon enchant (exept HR). As you can see, I do some PvP and ofc can I kill some PuGs with my GWF, but a similar geared char of any class (exept SW) will beat him, if he knows what he is doing and I dont have a DC in my team. GWF is one of the most gear dependent classes. More dmg, more unstoppable, more stacks, more temporary HP. More HP, more temp HP, so better gear will bring you better performance because of the synergy of these effects.
You can get in to top 10 pages with 2.5k GWF, as long as you got perfect negation and some decent weapon enchant. Itemlvl itself doesnt show the real power and survivality value.
As I said, armor and weapon enchant, thats 15-30 million on its own (I used p. vorp and p. barkshield, now I would need feytouched and negation).
All my chars have a full PvP set and between 2.4-3.6k IL, all with perf. weapon enchant (exept HR). As you can see, I do some PvP and ofc can I kill some PuGs with my GWF, but a similar geared char of any class (exept SW) will beat him, if he knows what he is doing and I dont have a DC in my team. GWF is one of the most gear dependent classes. More dmg, more unstoppable, more stacks, more temporary HP. More HP, more temp HP, so better gear will bring you better performance because of the synergy of these effects.
You can get in to top 10 pages with 2.5k GWF, as long as you got perfect negation and some decent weapon enchant. Itemlvl itself doesnt show the real power and survivality value.
As I said, armor and weapon enchant, thats 15-30 million on its own (I used p. vorp and p. barkshield, now I would need feytouched and negation).
All my chars have a full PvP set and between 2.4-3.6k IL, all with perf. weapon enchant (exept HR). As you can see, I do some PvP and ofc can I kill some PuGs with my GWF, but a similar geared char of any class (exept SW) will beat him, if he knows what he is doing and I dont have a DC in my team. GWF is one of the most gear dependent classes. More dmg, more unstoppable, more stacks, more temporary HP. More HP, more temp HP, so better gear will bring you better performance because of the synergy of these effects.
You could try another option and queue up with some friends that use specific classes. This way you can:
- minimalize weakness of each class
- increase killing and capping potential
- minimalize the chance of getting intentional afkers or players without any tenacity gear. (depending on how big your premade is)
Certain specs can make really powrful combinations. Solo q is mostly for wallet warriors who dont need to rely so much on cooperation due to their superior gear.
You could try another option and queue up with some friends that use specific classes. This way you can:
- minimalize weakness of each class
- increase killing and capping potential
- minimalize the chance of getting intentional afkers or players without any tenacity gear. (depending on how big your premade is)
Certain specs can make really powrful combinations. Solo q is mostly for wallet warriors who dont need to rely so much on cooperation due to their superior gear.
I played premade, before my friends left. We never had a big guild, 6 players from a LOTRO T2 HM raid, we left, when they said, that they wont make new endcontent for raiders. Then my GWF was pg. 5 and our TR pg. 2 of a few thousands (he wrote '<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> perma TR' into his char description, bc most of the enemy players insulted him like that.^^).
They all left and now I play with some friends who are PvE oriented, so a premade que with them would be suicidal.
A friend of mine plays his GWF with a faithful DC, they rock.
BTW I que solo with my 2.4k char as with my 3.6k char. Not everyone with near BIS gear is a wallet warrior. I play since beta, inherited some gear from friends who left and made some wise investements. I know for a fact, that some BIS players neither paid a dime nor exploited. For example one of the top 10 players is a student who never paid a dime or cheated. He earned his gear with CN farmruns and crafting/ selling R 8 enchants, some Mods ago.
Comments
A 2.5k OP can get killed by 3.5k+ CWs or bleed points against opressor CWs, yes.
The other guy wrote about a premade v premade fight between top PvP guilds. Their IL is most likely 3.5-4k, OP included. Their OPs are near to immortal. Even if you team up on them and get them to 30% HP with their heals, THP etc on CD after a few minutes, they wont die bc it is a premade fight and it most likely goes like this in TS: OP: 'they teamed up on me, need some help' Faithful DC: 'one second.' DC runs to OP, procs feat. OP: 'OK all dandy, see you in another 10 minutes.'
BTW, I had the same combo a few days ago, when I got qued with a PvP semipremade. Enemy had 2 DCs, OP etc. We fought for something like a hour and I got DCed, score was at ca. 700 for either team. I dont mind long fights. My best matches have been taking ca. 45 min, bc the teams were balanced and knew tactics, but to fight for more than an hour with no end in sight and the ony way to end it is, to hope for a DC, a team to quit or a player to take a bathroom break is no fun.
Protection Pally is broken. That temporary HP has to be an incorrect value.
Ya well I'll disagree with several points here because I guess I can make certain encounters work to my advantage situationally (i.e. banishment). Your point about every class using tab in a fight is valid, but consider the outrage if TR's could have a capstone that would replenish their encounters every time they pressed tab. Imagine the ITC rage? The problem here lies with the fact that the paladin can spam tab up to 3 times (I'm at level 66, I think it increases to 4 at 70?) and get the benefits of reducing cooldowns 3 times in a row.
And just because other classes (like HR's) are broken in a similar manner, doesn't mean that it's still valid for paladins to be broken as well as your argument is stating. This is a "2 wrongs don't make a right" maxim.
As far as the leaderboards are concerned. Pre-level 70 pvp means nothing to me as builds change once you get to 70. I assume you haven't gotten to 70 yet since you are on the leaderboard as well. I don't know what page someone is on has anything to do with this discussion as the difference between page 2 and 5 is a difference of 2 close matches against the right teams. Congrats I guess.
I do agree with several other points you made though, namely limiting comps in pvp and what its like facing off against another paladin.
This is matchmaking issue, not class balance problem. Also even if you tie on 3 flags, you still get points (depending on who's controling the point) but in a lot slower rate, like 1 point per 120s or so.
Even full BIS 5k OP will die to 1 TR with frist strike + SE and 1 CW or some other class with good CC. SE with first strike on a BIS geared TR will do about 120k+ and then it's quite easy to finish. As it is, OP wont have perma CC immunity so it's a matter of good timing.
lol? ( sorry, that was cynical..)
banishement, is totally/absolutly useless on pvp excepting against impressionable players..
About tr, they already have something for resplnish their stealth, but i was talking about a rotation, everyone during a pvp will fight with 3 encounter 2 at will and 1 or 2 daily, without changing it until the end, will do exactly same rotation against all ( it's not paladin's privilege )
Paladin have almost itc as well ( difference is that we cannot hit while cc immune )
Difference in page means nothing, it's exactly what i said.
The problem with Paladins is that the class is also not just VERY tanky, but mechanics are fluff puffypuff quite unclear. You see the guy walking around, spamming stuff, regenerating his temporary HP endlessly, or taking 0000000 damage.
"Send a CW to repel" might work, but the point is that it just underline the issue: inability to clear geared paladins even with multiple players. You're basically saying: you can't kill him. So just stall and push him away. What if there's no CW in team?
So instead of yelling at people, Paladins could do like some mod3 GWF did, or some TR did, and so on, and clearly explain when and how focus, what are the powers and what they do. Would be a good start, don't you think guys...
As for me, i think problem with current heal tanks is that you can have a chance to clear them only dishing out an unholy amount of CC, while there should be the option to out-DPS their healing when 2v1.
If they can't kill anyone 1v1, then they should not die 1v1. But die 2v1, slowly. 3v1 faster. 4v1 fast. 5v1 FAST. This is the golden rule for balance.
Issue is, balancing PvP while not breaking them in PvE, where they are quite precious assets.
healing depression should affect shields, hp and heals(currently i dont think lay on hands is affected by it, wrote a topic in bug section) and healing depression should be increased by a shitton.
total power(sum of stuff like tankiness/cc/dps/etc.) of paladin isnt higher than that of other classes, its just the way paladin works isnt fun in pvp, at least if there are multiple ones
and if paladin survivability is nerfed for pvp so it can be killed in 1v1 paladin damage should be increased some 3x(to smth higher than gf since gf have cc), so pala can kill smth also, else the class will be much worse than SW, but then the whining gang of morons will cry that paladin is op because it 1shots their noob <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
I'm not going to debate the point with you as obviously you have your mind set. You therefore, must be correct. You win.
Now a HR, TR, or SW,HR, TR CW, or any 2 Control classes will own any Paly Build at all, and any other dps in the vacintiy and 10-15 sec OP is dead.
OP Is the worst PvP classes by far, all you hear is why cant i kill one, when you should be asking why would i need to bother killing it anyway, it cant do anything to help win a game, Node holder yea right not gonna happen, cant kill hardly anyone of the same gear level, party buffs not necessary.
Cant hold a node by yourself it always be contested, if they have a Paly, TR, CW, DC, GF, and we all know those classes are never in PvP..lol.
Most premade run 3-4 CC and a Dps plate class or DC, making Paly's irrelevant in PvP, Which I believe is what Cryptic wanted for the class to be PvE only class as OP, and OD can go either route.
somebody hasnt met a decent pala
1. PvP Domination really should have a limit of 1 Class per team. No doubling up.
2. Any changes to OP in PvP (and for all classes for that matter) that isn't a Bug Fix, and is more a balancing change for PvP, needs to be made independent of (and not impact) PvE.
*ninja dodges return fire, and returns to his PvE adventures*
1000/8 classes in the game should mean there are 125 people of every class top 1000. 148 seems OP, 23 more than the fair share they should have. Lets all pout and nerf a class which cant dps down into the ground. If they get the defense nerfed then up the damage they do, or would it be safe to say no matter what gets done to them, no one will ever be happy?
Any Protection Paladin that isn't abusing the way the Justice tree works and interacts with other things is not immortal. I don't care if they can chain Divine Protector twice and make it last 40 seconds, its nowhere near as <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> annoying as the Justice Tree. If they're getting their whole team to be immortal then you and your team are idiots for trying to fight 5 people at a time under DP, they gave you the game on a platter.
Most of your problems with Paladins, and the reason CC works so <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> well against them, is that the ones that stick out like a sore thumb are abusing Binding Oath and the Justice Tree. At one point the Justice Tree was resetting artifact cooldowns as well. On my Devotion OP I realized this and switched to Light because being able to spam Artifacts was BROKEN.
Again, the people that are making Oathbound Paladins appear to be immortal and REQUIRE a class that PERFECTLY times its CC (Like Control Wizards) are using and abusing the broken Justice tree. Without the broken Justice tree interactions with other things the Paladin is much easier to deal with and cannot tank you forever.
Macjae, the issue might me essentially that. Only way to deal with healing tanks right now is heavy cc. We are left a bit out of options. You either basically prevent the tank healer (DC or OP) from doing anything till you killed him, or you will not kill him. It's heavy cc, nothing else. Some cc and high damage? With no cc, you can have 5 gwfs hitting a pally or DC and he will not even budge.
Also, as you mentioned above, a tank DC or pally in pvp can be like that and also provide enough support to make his team mates unkillable. So often it cuts out the option to focus the other guy and kill the healer later.
Only option is slot as much cc as you can, heavy cc the healer and hope it is enough.
Trapper + TR works best imho. HR trapper has best cc in whole game. TR has smoke bomb, dazes and piercing. Worst class vs DC/pally is gwf. Not enough cc. Can work if supported by HR trapper with heavy cc.
Can you explain a bit how animations and pally stuff work, what we should look at, when fighting them? I can't roll a pally. How much are cooldowns on powers?
1. there are not enough ppl pvping for that, i tried to do some pvp yesterday, in every of 3 games there were just some scrubs in trash/pve gear
2. why, damage 3x buff for survivability nerf should be in pve also
3.
say that to trs and cws, considering OP is a new class its just normal that more ppl are playing it
ncl top1000 by class
TR-253
GF-92
HR-100
CW-186
SW-16
GWF-76
OP-159
DC-118
SWs on the brink of extinction...
imho its more because of mod4/5, and how expensive it is to be a good gwf, bis ones seem to be quite strong, but it does suck playing a class that doesnt have any good cc
We are talking about top 1000, so ppl should have decent gear and a full set of boons. CWs are one of the first classes and the one with most players. TRs are a PvP powerhouse and have been fotm last season.
OPs, well there are a few BIS OPs and the rest has no problem to reach top 10 pages with 2.5k-ish IL. Try that with a GWF. My GWF had 22k+ GS in Mod 5. Now he has 2.7k IL, leg. mainhand, 4 leg. artiefacts, epic offhand and lvl 60 leg artefact gear. To make him viable for PvP I would have to change weapon and armour enchant, get LOL set etc. Long story short, drop some 30+ million ADs into a char that will be decent at best for PvP or drop another 30 million AD, to make him BIS, while a OP is playable with much less investment.
you dont need all that stuff, i kicked plenty of rear on my gwf with legendary weapon, blue artifact gear and epic artifacts, no lol set either, some 2.5k ilvl, the only reason im not playing gwf more is that i cant afford enchants for 2 characters, switching is a pita, and PF isnt that good for gwf
You can get in to top 10 pages with 2.5k GWF, as long as you got perfect negation and some decent weapon enchant. Itemlvl itself doesnt show the real power and survivality value.
As I said, armor and weapon enchant, thats 15-30 million on its own (I used p. vorp and p. barkshield, now I would need feytouched and negation).
All my chars have a full PvP set and between 2.4-3.6k IL, all with perf. weapon enchant (exept HR). As you can see, I do some PvP and ofc can I kill some PuGs with my GWF, but a similar geared char of any class (exept SW) will beat him, if he knows what he is doing and I dont have a DC in my team. GWF is one of the most gear dependent classes. More dmg, more unstoppable, more stacks, more temporary HP. More HP, more temp HP, so better gear will bring you better performance because of the synergy of these effects.
You could try another option and queue up with some friends that use specific classes. This way you can:
- minimalize weakness of each class
- increase killing and capping potential
- minimalize the chance of getting intentional afkers or players without any tenacity gear. (depending on how big your premade is)
Certain specs can make really powrful combinations. Solo q is mostly for wallet warriors who dont need to rely so much on cooperation due to their superior gear.
I played premade, before my friends left. We never had a big guild, 6 players from a LOTRO T2 HM raid, we left, when they said, that they wont make new endcontent for raiders. Then my GWF was pg. 5 and our TR pg. 2 of a few thousands (he wrote '<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> perma TR' into his char description, bc most of the enemy players insulted him like that.^^).
They all left and now I play with some friends who are PvE oriented, so a premade que with them would be suicidal.
A friend of mine plays his GWF with a faithful DC, they rock.
BTW I que solo with my 2.4k char as with my 3.6k char. Not everyone with near BIS gear is a wallet warrior. I play since beta, inherited some gear from friends who left and made some wise investements. I know for a fact, that some BIS players neither paid a dime nor exploited. For example one of the top 10 players is a student who never paid a dime or cheated. He earned his gear with CN farmruns and crafting/ selling R 8 enchants, some Mods ago.