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[Feedback] How to make Sentinel GWFs able to tank PVE content again. Balance Thread!!!
ayroux
Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
One of the issues that have come about with lvl 70 and the increase in NPC damage is that it made Sentinel GWFs unable to tank content.
The issue is because all the damage is very hard hitting and a Sentinel does not have adequate tools to use as a "preemptive" measure to counter damage on command. There are other issues with the class as a whole but I think this single issue highlights some of the key fundamental issues with the entire GWF class and must be dealt with before adjusting other areas.
Currently when going into PVE content ALL GWFs must first take damage to then build determination. Then, once they have determination can then RE-ACTIVELY use Unstoppable. So what ends up happening is the Sentinel who wants to tank, runs in and gets NAILED with hard damage only to then pop unstoppable however he is already either VERY low HP or already dead.
Sentinels (and I would argue all GWFs) need a more proactive ability that can be used - just like all the other classes. Especially tank classes.
Guardian Fighters and Paladins shift gives them "block" to mitigate damage. TRs can use stealth or ITC on command to mitigate inc damage. CWs have shield up all the time to mitigate big bursts as well as CC. DCs can use Astral Shield etc. So literally every class can mitigate damage except the GWF.
This suggestion would have deep implications but I think it is one of the only ways to bring some balance to the class. And also some FUN!
PROPOSAL: *REWORK* Unstoppable.
Now before you click the "back" button on your computer or exit the window just read this next paragraph really quickly.
CHANGE unstoppable to work much more like DC "Pips" or Paladin "Divine Call". Determination would be gained like it does now - although by BOTH attacking and receiving damage. Determination would then ALSO not go away when you leave combat. Allowing a Sentinel GWF to "save up" a determination/Unstoppable charge for the next battle.
Currently, what unstoppable does is you have your determination built up 50% of the way, you can pop unstoppable for 4 seconds @ 15% DR. If you "save up" to a FULL determination bar, you have access to 8 seconds and 30% DR. Sentinels have this boosted. Also your base Temp HP is 8% up to 16% at a FULL pop. Also the DR gained is currently on the SAME layer as "harcapped DR" meaning a Sentinel really doesnt get much in the way of benefits from this.
So here is how the new unstoppable could work:
Each "pop" is now a pure 4 seconds of unstoppable @ 30% DR (Sentinels would be 80% with capstone). Also it restores 20% Temp HP with each pop (NOT boosted by damage bonus anymore). Additionally the damage Resistance is now on its OWN layer of DR - much like GF block and Paladin shift and CW Shield - this provides the Sentinel with a massive bonus from their Unstoppable procs, more frequent procs, and the ability to save up determination and use it for the next fight.
So what this allows a Sentinel to do now is save up some determination and go into battle able to use it immediately. This is now a more "preemptive" Tab function rather than a reactive one. Also when you save up enough for TWO pops @ 20%, you would get the full 8 seconds but technically are benefiting from TWO "temp HP" boosts rather than just one as it currently stands - which can give Sentinels an additional buffer for taking damage. Also it allows you to use ONE pop and if it doesnt seem like you will be taking more damage, you can save the second one.
This change would also positively affect both other paths such as Destroyer - who are now able to build destroyer stacks more steadily/reliably since they will have more accessible access to unstoppable in shorter duration - rather than potentially one BIG/Long unstoppable pop followed by being defenseless. Or saving up determination maybe splitting it and saving a pop for NEXT battle to keep stacks up.
It also potentially helps the class have more sustain because currently when you are hit for a big hit and it takes 80%+ of your life, you only get a full 8 second unstoppable. This NEW proposal would instead give you 3x 4 second unstoppable which would give you 3x the Temp HP heal as well as up to 12 potential seconds (if used consecutively) of being CC immune and having more DR.
Since the DR is on its own layer @ 30% for none sents, when you run the math (15-30% on the base layer DR versus 30% on its own layer) its a smaller effect actually on damage than a full 30% would be to the base DR. For Sentinels this would actually make them very tanky and have more sustainability. For Destroyers gives more flexibility on gaining destroyer stacks and on Instigators it also gives them more flexibility for Unstoppable.
I think this is a very positive change for the QoL of the class, mimics something like two other classes abilities and sets the GWF up for future balancing. Unstoppable has always been such a HUGE crutch for the class and you can track how well it performs just by the nerfs and buffs to this ONE ability.
Allowing it to have "stacks" and "save it up" while giving it a flat bonus that doesnt scale, its own layer of DR etc only adds more flexbility to the class which is something it needs. Since the Temp HP is no longer scaled off damage bonus, I dont think it would be TOO overpowered in PVP either. I think this is just the adjustment the class needs to take a step towards being more viable.
The issue is because all the damage is very hard hitting and a Sentinel does not have adequate tools to use as a "preemptive" measure to counter damage on command. There are other issues with the class as a whole but I think this single issue highlights some of the key fundamental issues with the entire GWF class and must be dealt with before adjusting other areas.
Currently when going into PVE content ALL GWFs must first take damage to then build determination. Then, once they have determination can then RE-ACTIVELY use Unstoppable. So what ends up happening is the Sentinel who wants to tank, runs in and gets NAILED with hard damage only to then pop unstoppable however he is already either VERY low HP or already dead.
Sentinels (and I would argue all GWFs) need a more proactive ability that can be used - just like all the other classes. Especially tank classes.
Guardian Fighters and Paladins shift gives them "block" to mitigate damage. TRs can use stealth or ITC on command to mitigate inc damage. CWs have shield up all the time to mitigate big bursts as well as CC. DCs can use Astral Shield etc. So literally every class can mitigate damage except the GWF.
This suggestion would have deep implications but I think it is one of the only ways to bring some balance to the class. And also some FUN!
PROPOSAL: *REWORK* Unstoppable.
Now before you click the "back" button on your computer or exit the window just read this next paragraph really quickly.
CHANGE unstoppable to work much more like DC "Pips" or Paladin "Divine Call". Determination would be gained like it does now - although by BOTH attacking and receiving damage. Determination would then ALSO not go away when you leave combat. Allowing a Sentinel GWF to "save up" a determination/Unstoppable charge for the next battle.
Currently, what unstoppable does is you have your determination built up 50% of the way, you can pop unstoppable for 4 seconds @ 15% DR. If you "save up" to a FULL determination bar, you have access to 8 seconds and 30% DR. Sentinels have this boosted. Also your base Temp HP is 8% up to 16% at a FULL pop. Also the DR gained is currently on the SAME layer as "harcapped DR" meaning a Sentinel really doesnt get much in the way of benefits from this.
So here is how the new unstoppable could work:
Each "pop" is now a pure 4 seconds of unstoppable @ 30% DR (Sentinels would be 80% with capstone). Also it restores 20% Temp HP with each pop (NOT boosted by damage bonus anymore). Additionally the damage Resistance is now on its OWN layer of DR - much like GF block and Paladin shift and CW Shield - this provides the Sentinel with a massive bonus from their Unstoppable procs, more frequent procs, and the ability to save up determination and use it for the next fight.
So what this allows a Sentinel to do now is save up some determination and go into battle able to use it immediately. This is now a more "preemptive" Tab function rather than a reactive one. Also when you save up enough for TWO pops @ 20%, you would get the full 8 seconds but technically are benefiting from TWO "temp HP" boosts rather than just one as it currently stands - which can give Sentinels an additional buffer for taking damage. Also it allows you to use ONE pop and if it doesnt seem like you will be taking more damage, you can save the second one.
This change would also positively affect both other paths such as Destroyer - who are now able to build destroyer stacks more steadily/reliably since they will have more accessible access to unstoppable in shorter duration - rather than potentially one BIG/Long unstoppable pop followed by being defenseless. Or saving up determination maybe splitting it and saving a pop for NEXT battle to keep stacks up.
It also potentially helps the class have more sustain because currently when you are hit for a big hit and it takes 80%+ of your life, you only get a full 8 second unstoppable. This NEW proposal would instead give you 3x 4 second unstoppable which would give you 3x the Temp HP heal as well as up to 12 potential seconds (if used consecutively) of being CC immune and having more DR.
Since the DR is on its own layer @ 30% for none sents, when you run the math (15-30% on the base layer DR versus 30% on its own layer) its a smaller effect actually on damage than a full 30% would be to the base DR. For Sentinels this would actually make them very tanky and have more sustainability. For Destroyers gives more flexibility on gaining destroyer stacks and on Instigators it also gives them more flexibility for Unstoppable.
I think this is a very positive change for the QoL of the class, mimics something like two other classes abilities and sets the GWF up for future balancing. Unstoppable has always been such a HUGE crutch for the class and you can track how well it performs just by the nerfs and buffs to this ONE ability.
Allowing it to have "stacks" and "save it up" while giving it a flat bonus that doesnt scale, its own layer of DR etc only adds more flexbility to the class which is something it needs. Since the Temp HP is no longer scaled off damage bonus, I dont think it would be TOO overpowered in PVP either. I think this is just the adjustment the class needs to take a step towards being more viable.
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Sentinels need a way to initiate combat and mitigate initial damage. Until the DEVs think of a way the path is completely 100% useless as a tank. Plus they still need more threat generation.
Besides, they'll still be useless even with such a change. Their unstoppable runs, then they die.
"Sentinels need a way to initiate combat and mitigate initial damage" This is the key. So what do you suggest?
"Plus they still need more threat generation." - this IMO should come with an increase to base damage for the class, remove the +dmg from daggers and add it to the base. Then you could add something to intimidation as well where foes deal X% LESS damage for X seconds which would also give an initial way to mitigate damage for them to build up unstoppable.
Thats the way I would work it. So intimation (CAGI or DS) becomes an essential tanking tool. Run in, Daring Shout, foes deal less damage, get hit, build determination, pop unstoppable, tank more, then CAGI, etc.
If you increase base damage across the board and allow Sents + Instigators to build determination by DEALING damage as well as taking damage with this proposal I think it can definitely work well.
Another idea would be to change Steadfast determination to work both inside and outside combat which then it could be ANOTHER tanking tool as well, build up determination via the feat to be able to use it pre-emptively. Only issue there is it provides really crappy deter gain.
The first is why paladins with a sigil and an ap dc are so redonkululus, the party is immortal more or less forever. Even if you aren't using this borderline abusive combo the mitigation a gf produces is top notch as well and it really cuts down on the domino effect.
The second is the main issue. If we're being honest its the tanks that are doing the relevant control in pve. The wizard/wizards put down/control the archers decently enough but if anyone else could be bothered they could too. What genuinely matters is the the one shot mobs (including bosses) don't start randomly attacking the squish party members. If they do fuggedaboutit. The tanks keep them under control. And everything else really by holding threat. THe tanks are grateful for the interrupts other classes provide but well, doing dungeons without a tank is a much rockier road than doing them without a dc. I don't see sentinels doing that even if they can take the required beating. Especially if they are doing tosspot damage compared to others. What you really need for that kind of thing is a proper ranged taunt.
In general the pips idea is pretty interesting.
Sidenote, I don't see any half decent cws using shield in pve. It might be a thing among the undergeared
GRUDGE STYLE: your critical hits generate x% of temporary hp (cap y%)
Defiance: slam now cost x% less ap and inflict y% more damage debuff.
Sentinel Aegis: inverse of Knight's Challenge; when you strike or are striked by a foe (single), both will deal x% less damage against other, but that target will receive y% more damage for the party. Attacks against that target will generate a ap bonus.
great to tank (and only tank) x1+utility for the striker friend, some extra control and great debuff aoe for the party in general. seens a exotic option. the "perma daily" will bring back the damage lost in pve x1 and, iam not sure, seens good to sustain positions in pvp.
i dont think we really need sent as main tank anymore now that we have 2 tank classes, but...
to make sent a viable tank(without overhaul of the class) there should be many feats that alter skills, or capstone could alter them similarly as paladin paragon does
to successfully tank mod6 content you need 3 things(not counting threat, that can be solved by simply adjusting numbers, maybe threat multiplier on capstone or a sent feat)
1. ability to survive 1st hit, that sometimes even kills my 130k hp paladin
2. way to deal with mob attacks
3. deal with huge attacks(ive received 550k+ mitigated to some 290k from last boss in eToS)
daring and cagi are nice abilities to build on, ds could provide longer DR buff/monster damage debuff that can be maintained throughout the fight, cagi could be taunt, shield/temphp whatever
, maybe TR mark could be upgraded to reduce damage they deal to you. some single target ability(takedown or restoring) could be altered to make it better boss tanking skill(dmg debuff, temp hp etc.), roar could be upgraded
so solving 2.(and partially 3.) is quite easy
now for the harder part
1. gwf needs a way to survive the juicy 1st hit, when you engage but havent been able to get your defensive buffs up(that hit doesnt even allow casting templars after avenger) so gwf either needs a cc or a shield/temphp before initiation one way would be adding knockup to mighty leap so you can get daring, or daring could provide that bonus out of combat, or cagi could be altered to help with this
and now the hardest part - 3.
how to make gwf have enough survivability to live through those huge hits that sometimes oneshot paladins without making dps spec op in pve and pvp and sent into another paladin in pvp
while sprint and unstoppable with mitigation on separate layer(smth that should happen anyway) can help it still wouldnt be enough and you cant use unstoppable on demand
adding shield/temphp to ds/cagi or increased/stacking temphp on unstoppable would be one way, or damage to temphp could build up more determination for sent, but that be really bad for pvp, so this is the main issue. maybe steel defense could be used, or altered for this
I agree that you need a source of mitigation after DR. Otherwise you're toast as tank. My GF gets 200k+ hits without shield no matter how much DR I have.
I just like how your suggestion literally feels like GWF would become pvp gods.
Kills you in two hits, tanks like a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. noty?
It makes sense in PvE. But really not in PvP
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
I like the Slam change.
The temp HP mechanic still needs to be focused on defensive stats.
aesthetically, temporary hp for gwfs - and determination - seens to me something like a Battle euphoria. because that - and gwf be a offensive class - i defend the current concept.
These are all good points. This dilemma of "needing a way to survive the big hit" is what I was thinking with this change and especially this PLUS steadfast determination. This would allow you to build determination PRIOR to any battle. I think they would need to prevent "swaps" but could allow it just the same IMO. Either way, Steadfast deter could provide the Sent a way to have unstoppable up at the beginning. Then also look into all these other things.
I know one thing I always hated was emphasis on mark. So another area you could adjust would be "Powerful Challenge" Could be turned more into a tanking tool. Something like Marked targets deal up to 10% less damage to you and your allies, this would give room to buff STR as an ability score having 2% damage (up from 1%) with little effect on total damage.
The other thing that the Capstone could do is increase effectiveness of Constitution as well. GF and OP have a 4% benefit from Con while GWFs have 2%. The Sent Capstone could ditch Restoring Strike and instead have Constitution provide an additional 2% effectiveness to Con.
Intimidation could be changed/Added to be a target DEBUFF that also de buffs damage. Meaning Daring Shout would provide a Mark + Debuff with Intimidation combined with more Con effectiveness (140k HP wouldnt be a stretch anymore) and combined with Steadfast Determination and this Unstoppable change it would provide you a way to facetank some initial damage.
I know another thing that could be buffed on the Sent capstone as well is the DR effectiveness. Boosting that to ALSO increase the effectiveness of AC as well even further would provide some additional DR out of unstoppable.
I think it starts becoming doable. Now I agree its not AS good as a GF or Paladin but it does start setting the GWF up to become more oriented that way.
I think one of the issues with unstoppable is that its 100% re-active and you have zero control over getting it. This would help alleviate that concern since it would work much more like DC/OP Tab.
Now if there are PVP concerns about the changes, it can be adjusted if needed. I think it sets he class up for some good balance in the future and if they nerf negation (which will happen) you have to remember how big an impact that will be on GWFs in PVP since ALL they can do is face tank classes. Destroyers will start to become much much weaker.
Another POTENTIAL suggestion could be to re-work Countless Scars so that it works more like CW "shield" than it does now.... So it INSTEAD provides initial damage reduction benefits but gets WEAKER as you go through combat. It could either work like Barkshield OR just be a flat buff more like Shield or Cold Shoulder. Either way this would buff PVE and actually HURT PVP. So that could be balance if Unstoppable is too good for PVP (I doubt this BTW).
lets put hypothetical numbers (more op than i think). a boss that can hit you by 550k
lets suposed the slam feat give 15% of extra debuff (the main is 15%). so, you have a total of 30%+6% of ws. that means, mitigate 198k of damage only using a daily+atwill.
take now the capstone; both give 50% less damage against other. you will receive 176k of damage x1, ignoring your dr and the party debuffs. X1 sentinels will be a really solid tank against that boss in tos, over some circunstances IF using that numbers. the point is... dont need any general rework. just work the lasts feats of sentinels.
The sentinel can be greatly improved if the feat tree is reworked. In the same way as the DR is increased after using tab due to the capstone, the Temp hp can also be increased (some % more) and share a significant portion of this total THP to the party members, providing an absorption of damage just like the GF using Knight Valor or an OP using Divine Protector/Shields. The sentinel will provide Temp hp (not stackable but can be refreshed) in order to protect the group. The problem would be the beginning of any fight, so passively the Sentinel will gain determination until is full when out of combat (like the OP) and will regen during combat receiving damage as usual. The class feature Steadfast Determination can be improved so the sentinel receives a surge of determination after using Sprint according to the amount of stamina spent which will allow him to press TAB when is most needed. Sprint will be necessary to avoid damage because they don't have shield nor parry but since the sentinel requires to receive dmg in order to build determination, this class feature will allow him to build it as much as if he received a hit.
Increase Living Wall bonus and share part of the DR granted by Countless Scars to the party members.
Thereby, the sentinel will be able to tank and will require some skills in order to use it efficiently.
This sounds much better than the first idea IMO
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
It would require reworking whole class/tree so much it would be better to create a new one - look from economical point of view, devs arent going to completely rework class that already has a more than viable role in dungeons, just so it can be something else.
Currently while tanking trash the most important thing is surviving the "Alpha strike" before you and your team members start to cc/debuff and when mobs attack animation makes them attack in different times, which leaves you time frames to heal up/dodge/interrupt enemies. You may love TRs in your party (I love them), because of their ability to completely negate the Alpha strike with stealth + smoke bomb under enemies legs - especially these pesky archers that usually stand far from you.
As for GWF tank I think the only way to reliably deal with Alpha strike is Avalanche of Steel. I think GWFs wouldnt have hard time charging AP, especially if tanks start to stack some recovery (currently I think its not a very favored stat for them, while both GF and OP make great use of it) and took DC artifact. Jumping right before getting aggro and knocking enemies down on landing seems to be a strong fight initation. Plus Steel Defense - 5s of immunity seems to be a very strong tanking skill if used in the middle of combat - Im not sure what would be best GWF daily to cast, though.
Then we have another problem with tank GWF - team support. Currently GF/OPs provide great party protection (KV/DP/Shield of Faith) along with powerful buffs (Into the fray, Combat advantage from Mark, AP generation from Tactician tree, Aura of Courage, Aura of Wisdom, Justice feats, Sharing 25% of power, Bane, Im sure there are more which I cant remember) and strong cc/debuffs on mobs (burning light, templars wrath, bane, smite) . What GWFs do for parties? Nothing. Even as tanks all they would do would just be surviving and maybe, maybe taking aggro and soaking single target enemy hits - 0, or close to 0 team utility would make them very, very inferior tanks compared to GF/OP. This is as big problem as survivability. The only person GWF supports is GWF himself.
In case we really want GWFs as tanks I think Lazaroth ideas are better, since it makes GWFs party stronger as well.
As for bosses hits - the 300-500k hits are coming from bugs. Recently CM answered our call and I really really hope its getting fixed soon. Currently there is no way to make GWF survive these hits without breaking him in PvP - even immortal OPs can die from them.
Pray....log.
Dude... Do you even realize how much of a straw man this is?
Do you not know its Destroyers that are the king of DPS not the Sentinel tree? Or the Instigators are just garbage. Its like having an UBER DPS Conqueror tree (which GFs do for PVP anyways) and then someone making a post about how Prot Spec GFs are worthless and cant tank in PVE. Then a guy comes around saying "GFs DPS is leet, so should they even be able to tank PVE?!?!"
See how silly that is?
These are all great points! Ill update the OP to include them. The only thing I dislike is the determination gain from Sprinting. I think this should be part of the instigator tree.
I think Sentinels feat such as "Countless Scars" Needs to be flipped around. So that it provides MORE DR upfront but then loses "stacks" and provides much less. Heck you could even just flip it around and give the GWF 15 stacks @ 1% each and each time you are hit you lose a stack. When you leave combat you regenerate the stacks. I would actually rather change it to 5 stacks @ 5% each or something so its a 25% DR boost initially but take 5 hits and now its all gone.
In PVP and PVE it would actually make DEstroyers more squishy since they would have less DR mid combat.
I still really believe that swapping the entire tab from a "one pop" to a "3 pop potential" system makes more sense. It sets the class up for better balance in the future and gives the entire class more "flexibility".
Right now if you are hit for 40% of your life or 80% there is nearly zero difference. You get 8 seconds of unstoppable and a tiny bit of Temp HP. If they did this new system it would be 12 seconds of unstoppable and THREE TIMES the Temp HP. Also it doesnt ALL have to be used at once so in tandem with a healer (DC capstone) you may not NEED to use all 3 pops and could save 1-2 of them for another fight.
so shouldn't every class have a viable tank tree then?
no, every class should have a viable hibrid tree more focused in your secundary function (some classes have a tree focused in a non function).
gwf is a primary striker, secundary defender. not strange to have a tank tree, inferior to the main tanks, but still tank.
Exactly. When the ROLL of a GWF is a defender, should he not have a tank tree lol?!
It would be silly to have a CW with a tank tree (although they are more tanky than Sent GWfs!) Since they are a striker/controller.
Same with TR (who also are more tanky actually) who are mainly strikers.
If you have a Striker/defender then yes - it should have a viable tank tree at the loss of its DPS. Currently Sent can NEITHER dps NOR tank. So its just a pure fail.
In PVP he's some sort of man-god. Tanky as hell, can hold off the OPs and creates a massive amount of issues for the enemy team due to his mobility.
In PVE he really, REALLY lacks damage. I'm not ever dropping below 3/4 of my HP, but it takes so painfully long to kill a monster compared to what my destroyers can do.
I think Ayroux's 80% damage buff (with a change to focused destroyer and removal of hidden daggers damage buff) is really in line with what the class needs right now.
Mod 5 everybody could tank and nobody ever died. Mod 2-3 CNs were CWs playground - they had so much control tanking wasnt needed. Were GFs needed back then? No. Could they tank better? Yes, they had more aggro, more defense, more cc, more team buffs (old captain set). GWFs were taken because you didnt need any of these. Mod 6 was not indirect nerf to Sentinel - it was revealation that they never were actual tanks - more like 1 man armies with life steal + their damage + wet paper damage coming from mobs.
What happens if we rise Sentinels survivability so much that ~2.5k iLvL Senti can reliably survive T2 damage? We have poor <2.4k ilvl Sentis that dont really do anything in dungeons. 2.4k-~2.8k Sentis being able to survive, but unable to prevent their team from dying and not supporting them at all. And then we get the 3-3.5k+ Sentis that dont need so much survivability anymore, still cant protect their team, because they are not designed to do so... What is left? Take lostmauth set, some destroyer feats, stack some crit (not even close as much as destroyer, of course) and you have a rocky run where GWF tops paingiver, because everybody else is dying and his damage is very high - dont compare Sentinels damage to destroyers, compare it to any other class in game. Add a fact that currently one of main dps issues Sentis have is lack of reliable way to gain determination, which would vanish if they were tanks. Who has fun in such run? Nobody, except of GWF and perhaps after a few times not even him, because when DC dies he follows him soon after. How would boss fights look? Everything Senti does is taking boss attacks, while mobs are usually main pain in fight - he cant do anything against them and its much more probable other party members would die, than with OP/GF. I really doubt GWFs could prevent non overgeared party from wiping in the room with 2 spread hexers + 3 archers in eCC (after blazers) and areas like that.
What does an offtank need then? Some survivability/control/aggro to hold single mobs on himself. Mobility to reach enemies that attack party members. They do not need hard survivability to survive Alpha Strikes, because main tanks are designed to take them. Some personal HP replenish is welcome, so healer doesnt have to split his attention between main tank and offtank as well, temp HP is nice as well from same reason and GWF does all these things - just not well enough to be viable offtank. They do not need any mechanic overhaul more like some stat increase here and there, so they can survive a hit from normal mob + 2 more on determination without protection + appropriately more when using controlling/defensive encounters (and thats a lot, main tanks trying to facetank anything die after 3-4 hit max). That would force them to stack recovery (no more power + crit stacking after you overgear dungeon, we dont need BiS 1 man armies), because most safety comes either from encounters, or dailies - perhaps give them a strong tanking daily? The more recovery is stacked the better GWF is in offtanks role, because he can cast protective buffs more often.
That would be a useful role, main tanks do lose aggro sometimes as well and running for mob into team is bad idea (actually any kind of running that is not dodging while being mashed by other mobs is bad). It would help greately in t2 boss fights if you had somebody who would take summoned mobs hits, take melee critters from healers and CWs that want to cast steal time/frost terrain, who would replace a dead tank for a few seconds needed to revive him without sacrificing live of party member etc. That is the only tank role I see GWF in. And I would welcome him in this role.
Heavy focus on damage debuff on enemies.
Something like overall 40% enemy damage reduced.
Then boost RS damage and healing from capstone. Double healing from RS and 50% damage increase considering Sentinels don't have other damage sources.
Could be a 10% damage debuff applied from Daring Shout, plus a AoE stun.
Buff Come and Get it to bring the enemies on top of the GWF and stun them.
Plus on capstone:
Every time you hit and enemy, you decrease their damage by 6% for 20 seconds, stacks 5 times.
Something like this.
But i'd go for a massive damage reduction on enemies. so it could work in sinergy with tanks. Tanks deal with first damage burst, sentinel attacks and provides some CC, buffing himself with DS, dragging enemies on himself, then AoE at-will for massive damage debuff so the mobs now hit for a lot less.
Instigator should go for a massive enemy DR and received healing debuff, party damage buff, and massive increase in CC.
These are very good ideas - -%damage debuffs on enemies is one of best ways of survivability. Another idea would be some "leashing" skills - "Come and get it" could be made one of best offtanking skills if flat damage buff for GWF was swapped with -% damage debuff on enemies
http://www.teralancerguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/tera-lancer-leash.png
Yeah Damage debuffs can work the only issue is it still doesnt allow a GWF to take initial damage. So debuffs only work after applying them.
The GWF needs a way to first tank then apply debuffs and then can rely on those debuffs TO tank.
This is why reversing Countless Scars IMO would be a good way to go. Heck you could even just keep it AS IS but reverse the "coding". Taking the feat gives you 15% added DR. Each consecutive hit reduces your damage resistance by 1%, stacks 15x.
Thus when you are NOT hit, you have no stacks but the full 15% DR boost. When you are hit constantly w.e number of stacks you have applied, your DR is reduced that amount. THIS would help taking initial damage.
Then rather than reducing the damage and healing from RS (what are players to use CAGI/DS/RS?! And lose 40-80% damage AOE Daggers?) Id REMOVE that from the capstone and beef up the Sentinels DR flat out. Then give a flat 50% increased threat AND some determination gain mechanic there as well.
so it would be this:
Sentinel's Aegis: Increases your Damage Resistance by 10%, determination gain by 25% and threat by 50%. Unstoppable now also grants 80% DR when activated.
THEN you can go to feats like:
Intimidation - DS/CAGI still deal damage (Id prefer making this like the DC or GF feat where its DoT) and then it DEBUFFS targets damage by up to 25% (maybe debuff has a shorter duration like 6 seconds)
Grudge Style - SS and Reaping now reduce enemies damage by 2/4/6/8/10% for 4 seconds.
You can take it a step further and remove Powerful Challenge - instead Powerful Challenge increases your threat against market targets by 15% and causes marked targets to deal 1/2/3/4/5% less damage.
NOW you have your 40% reduced damage.
You also have higher DR and threat gain is now from the capstone.
You also changed Countless Scars to work as an initial DR boost of 15% that reduces over time rather than an increase.
I STILL advocate heavily for the Unstoppable change as I think this offers great utility to the class and with the removal of Temp HP multiplied by damage bonus, I think this would be an effective but not OP change to the class.
because now its only the initial fight that a Sentinel has to worry, once he gets his damage debuffs up, builds determination now much faster AND he will have much easier time tanking targets. He can save Unstoppable pops inbetween fights as well allowing him (once build up) to use those on demand rather than re-actively after a big hit since it comes in "charges" now. Capstone + Countless Scars providing up to 25% more DR right off the bat as well so that would significantly help taking those big initial hits.
considering the possibility of debuff - i prefer some slam combo/ws combo - gwf will start the turn bring the enemies close> leave the area> debuffing-slowing to slam>mark using ds. then controllers strikers sustain-kill the enemies.
if you take the idea of temporary hp of laz+rs change, well... that extra heal can be temporary hp, and part of that temporary hp is divided to the party in some radius.
Well CAGI's pull could also stun for 1-2 seconds as well rather than "immune" the immunity could be abused potentially.
Slam is very good and could be buffed as well for tanking. Slam debuffs enemy damage (maybe it should debuff more) and possibly give a damage bonus against those enemies for the rest of the team.
Honestly Battle Fury should give its FULL benefits to allies rather than just 1/4th. This would be a substantial damage bonus for the team (should feel and work much like ITF IMO.) So you could even just Battle Fury, CAGI, DS WS combo mobs around.
With higher DR and having Unstoppable as a "Stackable" system, this would actually feel and be very fun indeed.
slow in the case is not a solid way to a melee class protect yourself, just give some time for a range controller REALLY neutralize the target.
note: i dont know how be immune for 2 seconds after 14 secs of cooldown can be so abusive. if you hit a target, the bonus is gone. is just during the red glow.