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Pu/T. Elven Battle Enchantmnet
kweassa
Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
Synopsis
■ Let's imagine that there's an enchantment that gives you 200% more resistance to lightning/ice damage. And then, let's see what happens if someone slaps on that enchantment on a certain class and then goes on to fight a spellstorm CW.
■ Or conversely, let's say there's an enchantment that grants some sort of ULTRA PIERCING that ignores the effects of damage nullifiers such as Astral Shield or Divine Protector.
■ Enchantments provide useful bonus effects to your standard character, but what if such a bonus was so extreme that it effectively overpowers/nullifies a central mechanic of a character class laid out by its build path/paragon path/and power, class feature selection?
For the above examples, for a spellstorm CW the entire build/path capitalizes on damage that is focused on lightning and ice. Most of the CW's powers itself are elemental and being ice based. This is the most basic of powers, and upon it a CW adds either lightning or fire as main damage component. In contrast Arcane spells are mostly utility based and low damage. If there is such an enchantment that specifically targets those fire and lightning damages, and provides a jaw-dropping 200% resistance increase (additively!), then effectively, a single enchantment makes the entire paragon path useless -- upto a point where "skill" becomes irrelevant.
Same with the supposed enchantment that provides ultra piercing. Astral Shield, though hated by many, is still the most powerful and central mechanic of the DC class... and not even tweaked or balanced, but made completely useless by a single enchantment piece equipped on the weapon. Effectively, an entire paragon/class is made useless with this one enchantment,
Well, that is what is happening out there.
More and more people are realizing the worth of Elven Battle enchantments, now that Negation has been very much proliferated. While still extremely useful in 1vs1 situations, the effective nerf/balancing to Tenacity and Negation have made it very possible to focus down enemies. Especially with Paladins, DCs, and to an extent CWs, which are usually important priority targets for the team in PvP.
In retrospect I would say the attempt to revitalize old and overlooked enchantments was a good one. But still, some are too extreme, such as Terror enchantment with its "10% root chance" reported as being a lot higher than it seems, or the effects of Negation during the brief time period when Tenacity was acting abnormally. Much the same is with Elven Battle enchantment.
Now, many people do not realize this because the use of CCs are usually not their specialty. There are very limited classes which are really built into "CC specialists". One is the Trapper HR which HR players claim that there aren't any other alternatives for them. Another is the Scoundrel TR, which has been overly nerfed in mod6, but still has some amount of useful CC traits. And another, is the Oppressor CW, with full investments into CC traits such as WIS. It is a minor build, as most people prefer the joys of dealing pure, nuke-ish damage, but in terms of utility and team support the Oppressor CW still has a vital role, and my personal findings have more or less given me conviction that it is perhaps the BEST option against dealing with highly resilient classes like the Paladin or DC.
Then, Pure and Transcendent Elven Enchantments began appearing.
The Pure grade offers a 200% more resistance to additionally disables(dazes) as well as the standard slows and immobs. The Transcendent grade offers 200% to stuns(holds) as well. This is effectively, a 200% resistance against [color]ALL CCs.
The problem is this. Elven Battle enchantments, effectively REMOVE CCs as an aspect of PvP. I was long wondering if this "200%" meant additive or multiplicative all along. I am now mostly convinced that it is ADDITIVE.
In terms of multiplicative calculation, "200%" means "three times." If someone has the standard 40% resistance from Tenacity, this would be increased to 120%, and thus the factor the CC is reduced by would be calculated as: 1 / (1 + 1.2) = 0.45. A 4.0 second duration CC would be reduced to roughly half, around 1.8 seconds.
Now, my CC, usually, holds a person for around 4 seconds. But against am opponent wearing T.Elven, it literally lasts a split second. The target is held, and then immediately it is released. Not even 1.8 seconds spent under CC. This is why I think it is additive, in which case the factor would be calculated as: 1 / (1.4 + 2.0) = 0.29. My 4 second CC would be reduced to 1.16 seconds, and this isn't even counting other resistance aspects like race or WIS.
Let's say there's a Halfling paladin with 25 WIS, (not using CC resist powers). If this Paladin wears TEB That itself adds another 0.25 to the factor, making it 1 / (1.4 + 2.0 + 0.25) = 1.08 seconds. (for less complication the 66% Tenacity penetration is not factored in this example)
Now, the problem is, some classes are given moderate-long durations CCs by default. For example the TR Shadow Strike being 4 second daze by default. However, for a CW, the CC it deals are at default much shorter, and it takes active investment to make it potent enough to matter in PvP. There's even a build/path that is devoted to better CCs -- the Oppressor.
But once some has TEB on, it doesn't matter anymore. Like said above this enchantment TOTALLY removes CC as a factor in game. Even the most potent of CCs are reduced to around 1.0 seconds.
Every veteran of PvP knows that without CC as a factor, PvP is nothing but a raw clash of defense and damage. Whomever has the bigger guns and thicker skin, who attacks more, wins. In normal PvP CC is a factor as it delays the speed of which the opponent lays down his attacks, or pre-emptively prevents certain important tactical features. When two CWs meet on the battlefield the first few seconds become a lightning-speed mind-game where each tries to avoid the other's CCs, while trying to trick the other guy. TEB? It simply removes all of this. The CW with the stronger damage and defense simply wins.
This means a path like the Oppressor, which takes on a totally different form than the Thaum or Renegade, is effectively also removed from the game, totally shut out by a single piece of enchantment on an armor. No new tactics, no mindgame, no respec, no rebuild, no practice, no new skillset... nothing is required when you meet a CC heavy class. Just get some AD, put one enchantment on yourself and effectively the other guy is shut off totally.
This also means classes previously known as "unkillable", except for a situation where multiple people cycle/coordinate their CCs so the DC or Pally is chained-CCd long enough to receive more damage than they can buff/heal out of... now effectively also becomes "unkillable" in every meaning of the word. He doesn't get slowed. He doesn't get rooted. He doesn't get dazed. He doesn't get stunned. Good luck in bringing down a Paladin that spends effectively 100% of the time CC-immune, whether it is by Sanctuary effect, or from TEB when shield is down.
Let me make this very clear for all of those who still many not understand:
■ What TEB does to classes/builds/situations that are heavy on CCs, easily exceeds the extreme effect that Negation + Tenacity had on everyone's survivability in early mod6, before the patch.
It really is THAT powerful --- OVERLY POWERFUL.
I'm really sorry for those who have, or currently are investing in it, but really, the reason those who use TEB love it so much, is exactly the reason why it is so OP.
The resistance against Disable(daze) and Stun(hold) in the Pure and Transcendent grades of this enchantment, must be removed, and replaced with some other useful buff
The defense against slows and immobs are OK, IMO. Elven combatants, light on feet, acrobatic, fits the concept. Also immobs and slows are relatively less important in terms of gameplay... but so much protection against daze/stuns... it breaks the game. It makes CC-heavy classes useless. It removes the only weakness some classes have like the DC or Paladin. It nullifies the effects of CC to such an extent to make it a non-factor in PvP.
I urge the developers to remove these effects (daze/stun resistance) and give it some other buff effect.
(ps) I know a lot of people hate TRs, especially MIs. What do you think happens when a MI TR is equipped ITC AND TEB...? A totally CC immune TR. He is "Impossible to Catch" ALL the time.
■ Let's imagine that there's an enchantment that gives you 200% more resistance to lightning/ice damage. And then, let's see what happens if someone slaps on that enchantment on a certain class and then goes on to fight a spellstorm CW.
■ Or conversely, let's say there's an enchantment that grants some sort of ULTRA PIERCING that ignores the effects of damage nullifiers such as Astral Shield or Divine Protector.
■ Enchantments provide useful bonus effects to your standard character, but what if such a bonus was so extreme that it effectively overpowers/nullifies a central mechanic of a character class laid out by its build path/paragon path/and power, class feature selection?
For the above examples, for a spellstorm CW the entire build/path capitalizes on damage that is focused on lightning and ice. Most of the CW's powers itself are elemental and being ice based. This is the most basic of powers, and upon it a CW adds either lightning or fire as main damage component. In contrast Arcane spells are mostly utility based and low damage. If there is such an enchantment that specifically targets those fire and lightning damages, and provides a jaw-dropping 200% resistance increase (additively!), then effectively, a single enchantment makes the entire paragon path useless -- upto a point where "skill" becomes irrelevant.
Same with the supposed enchantment that provides ultra piercing. Astral Shield, though hated by many, is still the most powerful and central mechanic of the DC class... and not even tweaked or balanced, but made completely useless by a single enchantment piece equipped on the weapon. Effectively, an entire paragon/class is made useless with this one enchantment,
Well, that is what is happening out there.
More and more people are realizing the worth of Elven Battle enchantments, now that Negation has been very much proliferated. While still extremely useful in 1vs1 situations, the effective nerf/balancing to Tenacity and Negation have made it very possible to focus down enemies. Especially with Paladins, DCs, and to an extent CWs, which are usually important priority targets for the team in PvP.
In retrospect I would say the attempt to revitalize old and overlooked enchantments was a good one. But still, some are too extreme, such as Terror enchantment with its "10% root chance" reported as being a lot higher than it seems, or the effects of Negation during the brief time period when Tenacity was acting abnormally. Much the same is with Elven Battle enchantment.
Now, many people do not realize this because the use of CCs are usually not their specialty. There are very limited classes which are really built into "CC specialists". One is the Trapper HR which HR players claim that there aren't any other alternatives for them. Another is the Scoundrel TR, which has been overly nerfed in mod6, but still has some amount of useful CC traits. And another, is the Oppressor CW, with full investments into CC traits such as WIS. It is a minor build, as most people prefer the joys of dealing pure, nuke-ish damage, but in terms of utility and team support the Oppressor CW still has a vital role, and my personal findings have more or less given me conviction that it is perhaps the BEST option against dealing with highly resilient classes like the Paladin or DC.
Then, Pure and Transcendent Elven Enchantments began appearing.
The Pure grade offers a 200% more resistance to additionally disables(dazes) as well as the standard slows and immobs. The Transcendent grade offers 200% to stuns(holds) as well. This is effectively, a 200% resistance against [color]ALL CCs.
The problem is this. Elven Battle enchantments, effectively REMOVE CCs as an aspect of PvP. I was long wondering if this "200%" meant additive or multiplicative all along. I am now mostly convinced that it is ADDITIVE.
In terms of multiplicative calculation, "200%" means "three times." If someone has the standard 40% resistance from Tenacity, this would be increased to 120%, and thus the factor the CC is reduced by would be calculated as: 1 / (1 + 1.2) = 0.45. A 4.0 second duration CC would be reduced to roughly half, around 1.8 seconds.
Now, my CC, usually, holds a person for around 4 seconds. But against am opponent wearing T.Elven, it literally lasts a split second. The target is held, and then immediately it is released. Not even 1.8 seconds spent under CC. This is why I think it is additive, in which case the factor would be calculated as: 1 / (1.4 + 2.0) = 0.29. My 4 second CC would be reduced to 1.16 seconds, and this isn't even counting other resistance aspects like race or WIS.
Let's say there's a Halfling paladin with 25 WIS, (not using CC resist powers). If this Paladin wears TEB That itself adds another 0.25 to the factor, making it 1 / (1.4 + 2.0 + 0.25) = 1.08 seconds. (for less complication the 66% Tenacity penetration is not factored in this example)
Now, the problem is, some classes are given moderate-long durations CCs by default. For example the TR Shadow Strike being 4 second daze by default. However, for a CW, the CC it deals are at default much shorter, and it takes active investment to make it potent enough to matter in PvP. There's even a build/path that is devoted to better CCs -- the Oppressor.
But once some has TEB on, it doesn't matter anymore. Like said above this enchantment TOTALLY removes CC as a factor in game. Even the most potent of CCs are reduced to around 1.0 seconds.
Every veteran of PvP knows that without CC as a factor, PvP is nothing but a raw clash of defense and damage. Whomever has the bigger guns and thicker skin, who attacks more, wins. In normal PvP CC is a factor as it delays the speed of which the opponent lays down his attacks, or pre-emptively prevents certain important tactical features. When two CWs meet on the battlefield the first few seconds become a lightning-speed mind-game where each tries to avoid the other's CCs, while trying to trick the other guy. TEB? It simply removes all of this. The CW with the stronger damage and defense simply wins.
This means a path like the Oppressor, which takes on a totally different form than the Thaum or Renegade, is effectively also removed from the game, totally shut out by a single piece of enchantment on an armor. No new tactics, no mindgame, no respec, no rebuild, no practice, no new skillset... nothing is required when you meet a CC heavy class. Just get some AD, put one enchantment on yourself and effectively the other guy is shut off totally.
This also means classes previously known as "unkillable", except for a situation where multiple people cycle/coordinate their CCs so the DC or Pally is chained-CCd long enough to receive more damage than they can buff/heal out of... now effectively also becomes "unkillable" in every meaning of the word. He doesn't get slowed. He doesn't get rooted. He doesn't get dazed. He doesn't get stunned. Good luck in bringing down a Paladin that spends effectively 100% of the time CC-immune, whether it is by Sanctuary effect, or from TEB when shield is down.
Let me make this very clear for all of those who still many not understand:
■ What TEB does to classes/builds/situations that are heavy on CCs, easily exceeds the extreme effect that Negation + Tenacity had on everyone's survivability in early mod6, before the patch.
It really is THAT powerful --- OVERLY POWERFUL.
I'm really sorry for those who have, or currently are investing in it, but really, the reason those who use TEB love it so much, is exactly the reason why it is so OP.
The resistance against Disable(daze) and Stun(hold) in the Pure and Transcendent grades of this enchantment, must be removed, and replaced with some other useful buff
The defense against slows and immobs are OK, IMO. Elven combatants, light on feet, acrobatic, fits the concept. Also immobs and slows are relatively less important in terms of gameplay... but so much protection against daze/stuns... it breaks the game. It makes CC-heavy classes useless. It removes the only weakness some classes have like the DC or Paladin. It nullifies the effects of CC to such an extent to make it a non-factor in PvP.
I urge the developers to remove these effects (daze/stun resistance) and give it some other buff effect.
(ps) I know a lot of people hate TRs, especially MIs. What do you think happens when a MI TR is equipped ITC AND TEB...? A totally CC immune TR. He is "Impossible to Catch" ALL the time.
Stop making excuses. Be a man.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Post edited by zebular on
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Comments
You find a single enchantment simply removing a gameplay mechanic as a factor in PvP funny? Every player in game already has 40% CC resistance from tenacity. Is this thread some kind of complaint to have this removed so a CW player can have his wet dream?
In a game where CCs are generally short duration than compared to contemporary MMOGs, where 3 seconds is around the norm, just by having PvP gear alone cuts that down by full 1 second. You don't invest in anything. You don't build for CC resistance as CWs build for CC bonus, do you? No. You do nothing and just gain this resistance for free, whereas CWs that goes for CCs give up the entire DPS section of the class that people are so in awe of. Just by playing a few matches and getting gear, you undermine a full build path as well as characteristic of certain classes and make it weaker. Did I ask someone remedy this?
...
How about we really introduce the "ultra piercing" enchantment and have 50% of everyone's damage simply ignore your precious Paladin's shield? Oh I'm sure the GFs and Palys will enjoy, that, don't you think?
Because that's how powerful and serious TEB is to anyone who relies on the use of CCs to fight. How would you feel if somebody simply buying an enchantment and using it can easily negate your Paly's entire defense mechanic centered around on your shield? How about someone can buy a "stone of clearsight" and put it on his armor, and that gives you wide-area stealth detection? A single enchantment simply negating the entire TR defense mechanic, that would be lovely, don't you think?
If you have no idea how serious this is, go play any build or class that needs CCs to work, and then maybe you'll understand.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Practically speaking it makes all CCs non-viable, since prones are generally rare and limited. The only other form of CC that works is smokebomb, in which case being (maybe) the game's only persistent-AoE CC that constantly applies itself while within duration.
Just this single enchantment and it:
■ breaks SWs, relying on their one good, impressive stun power to gain the upperhand in a fight
■ breaks Oppressor CWs, which, when CCs stop functioning its like equivalent to -1000 Item Level.
■ breaks TRs, by putting them in a state resembling perma-CC-deflect, even for Whisperknives
■ breaks GF or Paly, those with already CC-immune states, and removes their weakness to CCs totally
■ breaks DC by making them even more unkillable -- nothing stops their constant self heal/buffs
■ breaks GWFs by making them near-immune to CCs outside Unstoppable
■ breaks HRs, also becoming near immune to CCs in terms of self-defense
A single piece of enchantment, that just simply lifts an important PvP mechanic, and makes it null and void. The only thing left when TEB is associated in the game is just a raw trade of punches, mashing on any attack power button is the only thing you do, because there is no tactic anymore. There is no variable in which you can disrupt or gain upperhand with. If you have more HP and/or higher damage, then you simply win. If you have lower damage and/or HP, then you simply lose.
This is gamebreakingly serious. The only reason people don't see this YET is because Negation is still much more popular, and the proliferation of TEB is relatively low at the moment.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I could care less what they will implement, because i've few lvl70 toons. I just wanted to point out hypocrisy where players report stuff only when it affect their main toons.
As long as CW can deal cr.p ton of dmg from high range, with very short cd's and have insane survivality on top of that (for a ranged spec) i would ignore any complains about TEB.
If they're going to change one, they should adjust the rest as well. Which includes Negation and Wheel of exploits.
But I have to say that elven battle is here to stay. CC is halved in pvp for a reason. Its too powerful sepecially at level 70.
dont forget about classes that provide massive damage and massive aoe cc, while being tanky, have best sustain of non healing classes and have one of the highest win% of among all top players of all classes
When we complain about elven battle its not ok too.. am i missing something?
Not a nerf, just a tooltip change. It's still the same as before, just the tooltip makes it easier to understand how much CC is reduced by.
Elven battle is fairly broken on DCs and OPs. Even on non-DC/OP classes, it's still overpowered especially against classes like HR and CW, which rely on CC to survive and kill, though not nearly as much (elven on a TR is pretty up there too, though).
The CC resistance factor should be reduced and the stamina gain possibly also reduced, however I would prefer the CC resistance be changed first before looking at the stamina, as that could be an overnerf.
+1. This enchant is just sick....
I had a lesser on my DC and yeah on heal tanks it works wonders. Even at low ranks.
May be the only enchant that can replace negation on some classes.
I think it's however an issue only on heal tanks, but follow me:
if i meet another class using EB, i switch to no-CC, full damage encounters and just fight with no CC.
the issue with tank heal classes currently is that the ONLY way to take them down is CC, and if it gets pretty much nullified, you lose the one and only weapon to kill them.
A group of 2-3-4-5 players should be also able to outdamage the healing, and not be forced to dish out an unholy amount of CC or gtfo. In my opinion.
I mean, my 2k tank DC can be immortal vs 2x much more geared DPS classes unless they can keep me CCed long enough. Should not happen...
You dont have to kill, send CW with Repel and you'll be fine.
And if you don't have CW?
It's imho a non-solution...if you need so much CC to have a chance to take down heal tanks, and also have EB involved and tenacity reducing CC further...you see the issue?
There should be multiple ways to take down a heal tank, not only a tidal wave of CC. A tidal wave of DPS too.
what a see on pvp, it make's TR almost perfect!
*Stealth/Speed
*endless dodge
*Piercing dmg /chance to 1-Shot
*100% Crit Guaranteed
*and Now Perma CC immunity
Gz. Devs..
That's like saying;
"Ok, we'll fix the Paladin issue. We will adequately nerf some of the overboard survival mechanics. And then, in compensation, we'll give them 100k more HP.
The average duration of most CCs in this game are 3 seconds. You don't even have to put 1 point into WIS for CC resist (unlike how CC-focused builds like mine sacrifice other stats to put into WIS) you simply get a contemporary PvP gear, and that alone reduces the CC's duration down to 2.1 seconds for free. ...and for the compensation of fixing a game-breaking enchantment you want to cut that 2.1 second down an additional 66%, making it 0.7 seconds?
Why don't you just tell the devs to remove all CCs from the game? That's what you're aiming for, it seems.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Trs and CWs complain about Elven Battle enchant:
What a coinsidense:The two most powerfull Control classes of te game,want the anti cc enchant to get nerfed.
Cw with endless control,incdredibly short cooldawns and dear TR which its cc are DAZES that means annaffected by tenacity.
Cw is already ignnore 66% of tenacity cause in mod2,the usual situation:Impotent whining CWs complaining "hey we cannot kill anything"
meanwhile for them Negation is ok....
LMAO.Trololol.
The posters that posted about Elven enchant are
Elven battle is fine i wear a pure on my GF and it feels great.Although SW controls BYPASS It.I mean the similar to entagle power,which even with pure elven and steel grace rank4 slotted(40% CC resist) and 40% tenacity lasts 2-3 secs.how much is it normal duration?One minute?
I fotgot "SW needs buufs".Meanwhile MacJae SW has a 7-1 kill death ratio.And Misery is melting tanks in pvp like is no tomorrow.
What a hypocritical word!!!
The situation with Elven closely resembles, in that, this gives any player a fighting chance against control-focused character (to a gamebreaking extent--I don't know. I won't comment on that).
But the important thing is; control is a strong (perhaps strongest) component of PvP.
Let's look at the balance and imbalance;
- On a single Oppressor CW, spec full control, 80% less control duration neuters the gameplay, almost to uselessness.
- On a fight against two controllers, against any two others, the advantage quickly goes to the controllers simply because they can chain their powers to give their opponents zero reaction time. So the 80% less CC here, it's necessary.
Control is overpowered when you are able to chain it and paralyze a player without a chance to react. Control resistance is also overpowered when it renders a core aspect of a class near-useless.
There is no easy way here, so I hope some sad kid doesn't propose a knee-jerk nerf, and everybody is suddenly on board with it.
If I would propose a change, it might be something along the lines of;
Example; "You are 80% more *resilient* to control effects for 10 seconds. Successive applications of controls such as daze, stun, immobilize have their duration reduced. This bonus is reset every 20 seconds. While this effect is on cooldown you gain 30% stamina regeneration."
^^^
Myu proposal for negation enchant in the same lines as your proposals.negation is what squishieis classes (HR.CW.Tr) wear:
"You are more 30% resilient to damage for 10 secs.Succesive applications of damage such as necrotic,piercing and physical have thier damage sum reduced.This bonus is reset every 20 secs.While this effect is on cooldawn you gain 30% more healing."
Sounds fair...or not?
no, because i need it all the time while tanking dungeon, not same bs like old trash negation
But let's say,
"After a control effect ends, you are immune to other control effects for 20% of the duration you were first disabled. This bonus is multiplied by the number of players within X range of you. Max 4 players."
Basically, you get a small fraction of immunity frame between being controlled so you have enough time to react. You are still controlled for the full duration.