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Open Letter / Request to the PuG Community

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  • kweassakweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    drkbodhi wrote: »
    ...I also think that 30 minutes is weak... you leave it should be a day ban from queuing... and another day of diminished glory gained...

    I am talking about any and ALL queues... not just PvP.

    In my case, I really, really can't blame any of the leavers when the devs refuse to split the queues, because I know some leavers are just wimps, but others are leaving in protest. Now that they have NCL, they should open up the team queueing only for NCL, and make all queueing in GG totally random, no teams.

    Because, when in timezones with smaller number of people, if the friggin' PvP guilders make premades, then that effectively gathers up EVERYONE who is worth a darn in PvP during that timezone to one team, and then pits it against everyone else, who are little to nothing more than just scrubs... and then to have that repeated again, and again, and again... it's just silly.



    Stop making excuses. Be a man.
    If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
    Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  • drkbodhidrkbodhi Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,378 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    The last time I played GG, which was a few days ago... I was on 5 teams that got stomped. So I headed to Dom... which is odd for me... and I started a roll of 9 straight wins. With pugs... and against pugs.

    I was not fighting premades in GG... either.

    If you don't like the results of the queues... and hate the state of PvP... then do yourself a favor and the team that you will abandon a favor and stay out of the queue.

    You dont enter a queue for a DD if you do not intend to stay with it and get the rewards.
    ez0sf4K.png
    Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
    Leadership Council of Civil Anarchy
    SYNERGY Alliance
  • benskix2benskix2 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 674 Arc User
    People leave DD runs all the time, or vote kick incompetent people. We can't do that in domination, all we can do is wait for the match to end and try again. If it's obvious what the result of the match is going to be there's very little reason to drag it out by running to a point and waiting to get ganked by 3 people. Best to leave the points red so the match ends as quickly as possible.
  • rschragerrschrager Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 59 Arc User
    Man... where are all the nice, considerate guys posting on this forum when I'm being assigned to Dom pugs? I don't have much new to add - you guys have already covered a lot of important points in a very honest, open way.

    I will say that I've had a similar experience to the one shared by a few people here: I sucked, I knew I sucked, but I was determined to get better. I had to sit through a lot of name calling and insults along the way, but what turned it around was a follow-up discussion with a guy who came off as a 7337 jackass during the match but turned out to be a pretty decent guy afterwards. He gave me a ton of advice, some really nice gear, and the motivation to stick with it, not only to get better, but to provide the same 'pay it forward' type of contribution to a few other guys.

    Some people want to blame the game for creating a rewards system that favors selfishness, or a leader board that provides constant, public, self-serving status, or the anonymity of the Internet: me, I'm not going to blame the tools for the way people choose to use them. If you want to be a jerk, you'll find a way, and a justification that helps you sleep at night.
  • subnoctesubnocte Member Posts: 341 Arc User
    I think that level 70 PvP should at least have lower gear scores matched together to avoid a lot of the issues. Give people new to 70 without good gear a chance to win matches rather than feel useless or get called names. Maybe anybody with a gear score under 1800 matched separately.
  • greyhawken777greyhawken777 Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    I'm relatively new to pvp having just started in earnest this past week during x2 glory, which was a tough incentive to ignore. As a GF with a 50/50 record, I don't think I'm doing too badly. Reading this thread confirms many observations I've had as a pvp noob. <long post incoming>

    For the tl/dr crowd: PvP is fun, but don't be a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about it.

    1. The matchmaking queue feels very random. I'm not exactly sure how it chooses how to pair the opposing teams but when it's good, it is very good, and when it's bad, it is very, very bad.
    2. No one talks, or only very rarely do they talk. I flagged myself as a noob in my first few matches when I said "Hi" in party. The replies bordered on sociopathic. I didn't use chat for several matches after that first time.
    3. Any attempts at coordinating efforts is met with "Who made YOU the boss?" in voice and in chat. Even me just mentioning what node I'm about to head to and cap is shouted down. I would reply with "just trying to that 'teamwork' thing..." that often makes others even more mad. True story: in a recent match, I was calling out how many enemies were at a node, that I've got them tied up, and that 2 should go cap another node. Voice chat comes back with "...stop telling me what to do." I offered "feel free to make the call where the caps should go."
    4. The "M" key seems foreign to most players. I make a point to check the map often, especially while on a node waiting for it to cap to see where I should head to next. If I see four at a red mid-node, I head to the very likely open far node. If I see a single teammate at a contested node spinning like a top, I head there as they are most likely in need help.
    5. Tenacity is important, as well as debuffs. I didn't at first thinking that DPS is king. Guess what...your DPS = 0 when you are dead. You don't need BiS gear, but at least invest enough in battle scarred gear to have some survivability. While I'm on the subject, feel free to buff up as you enter the fight. Sometimes, that extra 3% bonus is just enough to turn a fight.
    6. Movement is important. You may not be able to kill that BiS opponent, but you can sure draw them away from that node they're camping if you do it right. And fight smart: unless you're delaying the other team (and your own team knows that you're doing this), it's never a good idea to run into a 1v3 or 1v4 situation.
    7. Fight on the nodes, please. Fun as it is to chase that TR or HR with just 5% health, know that he's probably drawing you away from the node you are guarding or trying to cap. See #6 above.
    8. Don't be a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Sure, you stomped me, You stomped me real good, you pvp god you with your 3k+ iLvl, with your super negation enchantments and your premade group. But do you have to be a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on chat about it? Really?
    9. Don't whine. Sure, we lost. Don't start whining, especially when you were the one at the campfire just standing there in the last 2 minutes of the match with just 200 points between us, or the one who kept running into 1v4 situations instead of capping a node. See #4 above.
    10. Don't leave. I believe in fighting to the bitter end. You just never know what can happen with those close matches if you just hang in there. Maybe that's just me, or my misplaced feeling of obligation to the other gamers I'm grouped with. Sure, we'll probably never meet again and you may not deserve this courtesy I'm extending to you, but I know that for the next match I've got your back and I hope you got mine. In the end, teamwork and coordination are key.

    Overall, PvP is a nice change from the usual PvE. Having the human element adds unpredictabilty and randomness that forces me to up my game beyond rote pushing buttons. Improvisation, tactical awareness, character development and application all come into play beyond what any AI can challenge you with. Is it perfect? Hardly, especially given all the issues others above have listed. But it's good enough for now as it is still fun.
  • rschragerrschrager Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 59 Arc User
    Nice post, greyhawken777. I've experienced pretty much everything you've described; if anything, I'm surprised it took you this long to realize that team PVP is something you're supposed to experience in absolutely silence. Hell, even PvE pugs are expected to follow that rule. If you see anything at all in chat, it's pretty much a guarantee that it's someone griping about what an idiot someone else (probably you) is. Even saying hello, or 'nice job' causes as much confusion as using one's directionals in Massachusetts.
  • subnoctesubnocte Member Posts: 341 Arc User
    The random nature of matching means that on the whole you're going to get about 50/50 wins unless you're in premades. It's why the win/loss ratio is so meaningless (yet very dominant) in the league when you mix groups and solo people together. Even with purely solo matching, if your team decides to quit a loss is out of your control.

    I guess it's partly human nature to chase down someone you've been attacking when they get to low health. I've used this myself to draw people away from points when I know I'm going to die anyway - as a SW I'm usually the main target. They pretty much always do it too, but with no team communication, the rest of the team rarely takes any advantage of it.

    I've said in another post that I feel the first priority has to be to fix matching, as this would eliminate so many of the problems that come from it. Then encourage people to join PvP to shorten the queues - don't just throw great rewards onto a broken system, as that encourages farming from the BiS people and frustration from the new players. After that address the issues with people going afk (e.g. auto kick someone if they stay at camp for >30 secs, allow new people to enter games to replace them), and all these things will bring more people in to play PvP regularly.
  • richardtheleorichardtheleo Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    I inspect the players on my team to decide whether I want to waste my time or not. If they don't have the decency to even have the cheap pvp gear I won't waste my time. When three of the 5 members have 0(zero) tenacity it is a waste of time. I don't call them names, I save that for the other team....But I will not run with people who have zero respect for their teammates and running PVP without having any PVP gear at the higher levels is insulting.
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    I play since beta and I PvP a lot. I used to go semipremade, before my friends left the game, now I play mostly PuG.

    I try to be nice and I try to give advice. In thousands of matches I fought, I still can count the ppl who asked for advice or the reason for my comments on one hand.

    Here are the reasons I dont have a bad conscience, if I quit:

    'I am a TR, I am a killer. Dont tell me to cap, you are not my boss.'

    'LOL, look at our points, I am a much better player, bc I have more points and more kills.' (From a CW after I asked my team to help on the enemy node in MOD 5, when I constantly fought 1v3 with my intimidation GWF and the rest of my team farmed home and mid 4v2).

    'Why are you upset? I only went for a quick phone call, like 5 minutes'.

    I could go on for several pages, but this are the most common idiotic replies to my comments in party chat. I dont mind carrying my team. I dont mind getting carried (thank you PvP semipremades queing with 4 ppl^^). I dont mind having crappy stats, bc I constantly die 1v2 or 3. I mind ppl going AFK midfight, leechers etc who are immmune to tactics advice etc. with bad attitude. I dont feel an obligation to carry them to a victory, even when it is possible, when they clearly dont deserve it.

    I just left a decent team once. The teams had faithful DC and OPs. After 45 mins+ I could either go or <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> my pants, so I left. I am sorry for my team there, but not for the other teammates I 'abandoned' bc a team is not one or two players carrying the rest, but 5 ppl playing for a common goal (for some dense ppl, to win and not a 10/1 k/d ratio for your TR).

    PS. If someone plays like an idiot and does not mind polite advice, I feel free to tell him that, but IF he asks why I verbaly insuled him, I give him my reasoning. Would be a big coincidence, if rschrager is one of the few ppl who asked for my reasoning and got free advice and some help from me.

    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • lirithiellirithiel Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    drkbodhi wrote: »
    In GG that may have become the case... but that is not the case in Dom. Which is why many of us have asked for a leaver penalty for GG and a glory reduction for future matches. I also think that 30 minutes is weak... you leave it should be a day ban from queuing... and another day of diminished glory gained.

    I am talking about any and ALL queues... not just PvP.

    If you enter a match you are committing to play for X time... regardless. You want to leave? There needs to be a loss of skin when they leave. Without that loss there is no threat. If you can't commit to the team you get... then don't <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> join a match. Odds are you will not be matched well unless you join a premade.

    I think your suggestion is a bit harsh. The leaver penalty already hurts in NW as it doesn't just prevent you from doing pvp for the next 30 minutes, but locks you out of ALL group content from that time frame. In WoW if you left or were kicked for being AFK too long you'd only be barred from pvp for 30 minutes, which I was fine with. The reason it hurts so much more here when someone leaves is because there are no replacements during the match. If that was allowed this quitter plague wouldn't be nearly so problematic.
    Our pain is self chosen.

    The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
  • shillaenshillaen Member Posts: 57 Arc User
    subnocte wrote: »
    I think that level 70 PvP should at least have lower gear scores matched together to avoid a lot of the issues. Give people new to 70 without good gear a chance to win matches rather than feel useless or get called names. Maybe anybody with a gear score under 1800 matched separately.

    sorry sir..i think this is not going to work.......
    BiS 70 geared players (p2W or not)..will have hours for pvp queue..and they get pissed..and next what they do..they will stripped some of their armors put in bag...queue for lower gear pvp...and when inside..put all of their gear again...BOOOOMMM !!! they stomprofl again.....
    believe me this will happen.....
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    quitting a game before it ends in case its a save lose is a personal decision and leads to 30min break from all activities in the queue
    camping for the rest of time to prevent getting farmed in a row and taking your 6 coins is more rational/profitable

    so I think this discussion is more or less obsolete, there is no need to change anything except the matchmaking and the ability to queue in premade groups of 3 ppl getting matched with a random PUG team
    just make it that way: decide to queue solo or in a full 5 man premade to contest another premade
    and do not build teams with and without a healer
    my experience during lots of matches is: facing a pug team equally geared that have a medium geared faithfull DC against your group without, makes things stupidly unbalanced (sure it depends on the DC)
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    My expirience from today: 4 PuG matches with teammates between 1,2-2,3k IL against a bunch of PvP players with neg, feytouched, LOL set etc. Matchmaking sucks.

    Even if I would be able to kill one 1v1, I had 2 or 3 ppl killing me after a few seconds.

    Seriously, if ppl dont bother to get BLUE or 'god forbid' PvP gear to play PvP, que as 'noob-premade', keep hugging home with 3 ppl and ignore all reasoning, I should be the bigger player and keep going to my death like a good little sheep?

    Ppl should not expect decent behaviour, if they, by ignorance laziness or stupidity, hurt their teammates more than any decent player, if he would leave the team or goes AFK.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    asterotg wrote: »
    My expirience from today: 4 PuG matches with teammates between 1,2-2,3k IL against a bunch of PvP players with neg, feytouched, LOL set etc. Matchmaking sucks.

    Even if I would be able to kill one 1v1, I had 2 or 3 ppl killing me after a few seconds.

    Seriously, if ppl dont bother to get BLUE or 'god forbid' PvP gear to play PvP, que as 'noob-premade', keep hugging home with 3 ppl and ignore all reasoning, I should be the bigger player and keep going to my death like a good little sheep?

    Ppl should not expect decent behaviour, if they, by ignorance laziness or stupidity, hurt their teammates more than any decent player, if he would leave the team or goes AFK.

    its a sin to leave, don´t forget that
    be aware of beeing cursed from the mighty PVP community :)
    ......
    its also a sin to throw a matchstick into a fuel tank, its no excuse to say : "I did not know its gonna explode"
    "sry to suck" " I was not informed"
    nono sry, inform yourself before stumbeling into that game
    I did inform myself in the forum reading a lot about basic tactics, armor, setup/builds, mechanics etc.
    in case you don´t, pay the price being left alone with some PVP monster hunting you
  • reds351reds351 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 343 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    They need to make it so you can rejoin a PvP match (within x minutes) if you get disconnected before making a worse leaver penalty.
    Because the system can't tell a DC from a leave so just make it you have to return to instance within 5 mins or else you get x penalty.

    Edit:Words
    Post edited by reds351 on
  • ucanthandleucanthandle Member Posts: 211 Arc User
    I hate leavers as well, and people that camp at the fire. But I must admit there are times I understand it and will do it myself. If you are pugging and get put against a BiS premade that is just farming, there is no point. By that I mean they have already captured all 3 bases, on the board its showing there team has 20+ kills and your team has 0 and all 5 of them are sitting at your spawn. At that point it is hopeless. And when you have a character that is just inside the top 40 for the class what is best, going 0-3 and lose, or fighting back and going 0-15 and lose. There are times when it is hopeless. That being said, just because your team is losing 400-600 is not an excuse to stop.

    The best way to stop this from happening is separate the queue into a group (must be 5 main) or solo q. If there are 3 friends that want to play together either find 2 more, or allow the solo q to accept people to q as a group but make it random which team each person will be on that way they are atleast in the same match.
  • neoxyphusneoxyphus Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    there's asshats in every game...I'm pretty new to lv60 and haha I get yelled at cause I'm trying to learn the wk TR build, so I don't mind.

    But coming from games like MWO...I used to think pugs need help there, I was being spoiled. It is horrid here.

    More often than not there is some coordination in mwo...heck even if it's just team moving as a blob. But here its non existent.

    A lot of people chasing that lone TR or hopelessly trying to oust that OP that is twined out.

    A lot of completely one sided matches here. Usually 5 minutes into it when progress bar is half of the other team you are outclases by a lot and is hopeless.

    Anyway I digress...yes people need to play through what is dealt as much as they can until it's obvious it's hopeless. Really hate 3v5 Dom games.
    Casamir
    3K IL WK Sabo TR
    Trying to suck less @ pvp near you
  • cloudius1978cloudius1978 Member Posts: 292 Arc User
    I always solo queue for PVP and have my fair share of running with pugs.

    The scenario of 3-4 teammates chasing a TR, all over the place, instead of contesting a node is very real.

    Other common situations I see, are ranged classes perched on top of pillars/high ground trying to bring that TR/Tank/DC down (to no avail usually), while the enemy team gains points.

    I usually start by suggesting in party chat, in the nicest tone possible (throwing in "please", smiley, etc) that we should contest nodes instead of chasing that 1-2 guys around.

    There're usually 3 possible outcomes:

    Scenario 1 (best scenario)

    Team got their act together, members start to cooperate and we might be able to turn the tide sometimes if we're not lagging behind too much.

    Scenario 2

    Team ignores your suggestions and continues with their TR hunt or what not.

    Scenario 3

    There are times when I met with replies like "Shut up and play..." or other variants of vulgarities which I certainly cannot/will not reproduce here.

    The worst players I've met will chose to sabotage the team, either by starting to AFK or no longer contesting nodes and instead join the "Catch the TR" contest.

    When 2 or 3 happens, I know it's time to get that 600 points and chill.
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