OP is straight up better than GF. They can make the group immortal forever, especially with a dc around, no issues holding threat. Why even bring anything else for pve. Its like why bring dps other than gwf this mod, everything else is trash in comparison and the only reason you would want "control" is if the paladin is badly geared.
OP is straight up better than GF. They can make the group immortal forever, especially with a dc around, no issues holding threat. Why even bring anything else for pve. Its like why bring dps other than gwf this mod, everything else is trash in comparison and the only reason you would want "control" is if the paladin is badly geared.
This is wrong. Most PvE dps comes from stacking powerful buffs/debuffs and it works like that since day 1. GWF has highest raw damage, but no team support. He will always top paingiver, but not necessarily make the run fastest.
Example - eLoL, you have OP and 4 GWFs (with Vorpals). Each GWF does, lets say 100k dps. OP does 20k dps. Total group DPS = 420k. Now remove 1 GWF and take a GF with permanent Into The Fray +50% damage buff for everybody and 20k personal dps. Now you have 340k team dps +50% with ITF = 510k with just 1 encounter. The GF will probably have some weapon enchantment that lowers targets defense + permanent combat advantage + some other buffs I cant remember, not to mention additional movement speed that hastens run even more and safety, because of "backup" tank.
This is just an example. Stacking GWFs will not optimise your damage. Especially that GWF, except of damage, is worst class to have in dungeon.
Also, GF holds threat better than OP.
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romotheoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 729Arc User
But that's the thing, why hold aggro when nobody dies?
OP is straight up better than GF. They can make the group immortal forever, especially with a dc around, no issues holding threat. Why even bring anything else for pve. Its like why bring dps other than gwf this mod, everything else is trash in comparison and the only reason you would want "control" is if the paladin is badly geared.
DC with Gift Of Haste and OP with almost permanent Divine Protector daily - no one loses HP except OP, DC is focused on OP to heal and feed him with AP. I don't say it easy task for OP, my opinion is that 100% DP immunity is way superior than only 50% reduction from Knight Valor and you don't spend more effort on healing OP alone compared to effort to heal GF plus party, rather opposite.
But if your GF is holding aggro you're only healing him anyways. Couple that with SD and your GF is barely taking any damage in between dailies. At any rate it just comes down to personal preference. Though I know when I hit ITF you can see huge chunks of hit points dropping off npcs.
But that's the thing, why hold aggro when nobody dies?
Because since your damage reduction (especially under sancutary) is way higher than DPS damage reduction you get hit for way less when you take damage, rather than when damage is redirected to you. Sure, it may not matter that much if you bring 3k+ OP to t1 dungeon, but it helps in fights where you have to care about your survivability
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onegaki101Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 327Arc User
After playing both GF and OP, OP wins hands down in all categories.
They have better survivability and best protection for the group. Members in the group will pull agro or get hit by aoe or regular attacks at some point regardless of types of tanks. However, only the OP can guarantee their survivability via DP. KV will not guarantee their survivability.
DPS boost: ITF is a nice boost, but usually accounts for roughly 10~20k dps for each member of the group, not the 50% as it has been incorrectly provided in this thread. Aura of Courage provides the same range amount. The difference between the two is that one is an encounter while the other is a class feature. AoC is always active and as long as members stay within 30(40if feated) feet of the paladin. ITF drawback is that it is an encounter so it uses one of the three encounter slots. It also needs to be casted every time and members need to stay near the GF for the buff, probably 30 feet. If the GF is engaged blocking, he cannot cast it while OP always has it active.
Agro management: Boss agro is easy for both, they both have ways to get and keep agro. For trash mobs, agro does not matter so much to the OP as DP will keep everyone alive, regardless of who has agro. On the other hand, if GF does not have agro, whoever has agro will die in seconds unless the GF can grab the agro or the mob gets CC.
Own survivability: Both are capable of surviving by themselves (without healer), but it is a lot riskier with a GF. This is assuming the GF is a swordmaster and has steel defense slotted. OPs have lots of temp hp and shields that mitigates a lot of damage. Rarely will you see paladins lose actual hp. Furthermore, since paladins can self maintain much more easily, your healer (or bring extra dps class) becomes more of a buffer/debuffer. Paladins can also ignore all damage with binding oath. They might fix this in the future, but doesn't seem likely.
If you want easy mode tanking/easy dungeon run, you bring a paladin.
If you want advance mode/not so easy dungeon run, bring a gf.
But if your GF is holding aggro you're only healing him anyways. Couple that with SD and your GF is barely taking any damage in between dailies. At any rate it just comes down to personal preference. Though I know when I hit ITF you can see huge chunks of hit points dropping off npcs.
Steel Defense applies only to you. Divine Protector is Steel Defense (except cc part) placed on rest of team.
Let consider situation when bad thing happens. Whole team takes huge series of spike damage in form of lag, AoE and addfest invasion, all together enough to kill average+ OP(DP)/GF(KV).
At this very moment when tank dies, in OP team rest of players has still 100% HP, while in GF team they will lose of 30-70% of HP, in lucky circumstances.
But if your GF is holding aggro you're only healing him anyways. Couple that with SD and your GF is barely taking any damage in between dailies. At any rate it just comes down to personal preference. Though I know when I hit ITF you can see huge chunks of hit points dropping off npcs.
Steel Defense applies only to you. Divine Protector is Steel Defense (except cc part) placed on rest of team.
Let consider situation when bad thing happens. Whole team takes huge series of spike damage in form of lag, AoE and addfest invasion, all together enough to kill average+ OP(DP)/GF(KV).
At this very moment when tank dies, in OP team rest of players has still 100% HP, while in GF team they will lose of 30-70% of HP, in lucky circumstances.
both are good only if played correctly.
and one question why with op is easy mode? for WHO? those dont avoid red ? or attacks? nice gameplay.
both are good only if played correctly.
and one question why with op is easy mode? for WHO? those dont avoid red ? or attacks? nice gameplay.
Its not easy mode its cheesy mode. I had a virtuous cleric but I switched paths, one of the reasons I switched was because the Palladin was immortal, they turned hard dungeons to what felt like playing in cheat mode. It got so sick of running PUGs runs with Palladins that I started leaving them as soon as I saw a Palladin in the party, I want a challenge I don't want to play in endless god mode. What I don't get is why some people will proudly declare their class the best when it ends up being a "press this button to win game" class.
As for who is a better tank, a tank is somebody who pulls aggro and takes damage for the party, Palladins don't draw aggro and that god mode trick I would imagine will be nerfed. I consider it broken design and it should not be used in debates about tanks.
both are good only if played correctly.
and one question why with op is easy mode? for WHO? those dont avoid red ? or attacks? nice gameplay.
It is different game mode for rest of party because they don't lose health when DP daily active. It is not easy mode for OP. For cleric it is slightly easier because only one member (tank) takes damage and has to be focused to receive heals. It applies to situation when DP daily active. In other cases, OP without DP is comparable to GF without KV, each has own ways to aggro and provides nice buffs.
Comments
This is wrong. Most PvE dps comes from stacking powerful buffs/debuffs and it works like that since day 1. GWF has highest raw damage, but no team support. He will always top paingiver, but not necessarily make the run fastest.
Example - eLoL, you have OP and 4 GWFs (with Vorpals). Each GWF does, lets say 100k dps. OP does 20k dps. Total group DPS = 420k. Now remove 1 GWF and take a GF with permanent Into The Fray +50% damage buff for everybody and 20k personal dps. Now you have 340k team dps +50% with ITF = 510k with just 1 encounter. The GF will probably have some weapon enchantment that lowers targets defense + permanent combat advantage + some other buffs I cant remember, not to mention additional movement speed that hastens run even more and safety, because of "backup" tank.
This is just an example. Stacking GWFs will not optimise your damage. Especially that GWF, except of damage, is worst class to have in dungeon.
Also, GF holds threat better than OP.
— (The unwritten rule)
Because since your damage reduction (especially under sancutary) is way higher than DPS damage reduction you get hit for way less when you take damage, rather than when damage is redirected to you. Sure, it may not matter that much if you bring 3k+ OP to t1 dungeon, but it helps in fights where you have to care about your survivability
They have better survivability and best protection for the group. Members in the group will pull agro or get hit by aoe or regular attacks at some point regardless of types of tanks. However, only the OP can guarantee their survivability via DP. KV will not guarantee their survivability.
DPS boost: ITF is a nice boost, but usually accounts for roughly 10~20k dps for each member of the group, not the 50% as it has been incorrectly provided in this thread. Aura of Courage provides the same range amount. The difference between the two is that one is an encounter while the other is a class feature. AoC is always active and as long as members stay within 30(40if feated) feet of the paladin. ITF drawback is that it is an encounter so it uses one of the three encounter slots. It also needs to be casted every time and members need to stay near the GF for the buff, probably 30 feet. If the GF is engaged blocking, he cannot cast it while OP always has it active.
Agro management: Boss agro is easy for both, they both have ways to get and keep agro. For trash mobs, agro does not matter so much to the OP as DP will keep everyone alive, regardless of who has agro. On the other hand, if GF does not have agro, whoever has agro will die in seconds unless the GF can grab the agro or the mob gets CC.
Own survivability: Both are capable of surviving by themselves (without healer), but it is a lot riskier with a GF. This is assuming the GF is a swordmaster and has steel defense slotted. OPs have lots of temp hp and shields that mitigates a lot of damage. Rarely will you see paladins lose actual hp. Furthermore, since paladins can self maintain much more easily, your healer (or bring extra dps class) becomes more of a buffer/debuffer. Paladins can also ignore all damage with binding oath. They might fix this in the future, but doesn't seem likely.
If you want easy mode tanking/easy dungeon run, you bring a paladin.
If you want advance mode/not so easy dungeon run, bring a gf.
Let consider situation when bad thing happens. Whole team takes huge series of spike damage in form of lag, AoE and addfest invasion, all together enough to kill average+ OP(DP)/GF(KV).
At this very moment when tank dies, in OP team rest of players has still 100% HP, while in GF team they will lose of 30-70% of HP, in lucky circumstances.
— (The unwritten rule)
Never got the hang of it
Urlord
both are good only if played correctly.
and one question why with op is easy mode? for WHO? those dont avoid red ? or attacks? nice gameplay.
Its not easy mode its cheesy mode. I had a virtuous cleric but I switched paths, one of the reasons I switched was because the Palladin was immortal, they turned hard dungeons to what felt like playing in cheat mode. It got so sick of running PUGs runs with Palladins that I started leaving them as soon as I saw a Palladin in the party, I want a challenge I don't want to play in endless god mode. What I don't get is why some people will proudly declare their class the best when it ends up being a "press this button to win game" class.
As for who is a better tank, a tank is somebody who pulls aggro and takes damage for the party, Palladins don't draw aggro and that god mode trick I would imagine will be nerfed. I consider it broken design and it should not be used in debates about tanks.
— (The unwritten rule)