So I didn't believe you when you said wizards had less single target DPS so I couldn't resist running some ACT logs to prove you that wizards are currently dominant in preview server. This is a 2 minute DPS race single target on dummies in dread ring. Lv 60 character scaled to 70, both are using perfect vorpal, 17k GS each.
SW fury hellbringer - 2.7mil
CW renegade spellstorm mage - 6.5mil
So yeah, I don't think that any class will be able to compete against that kind of insane DPS, this was at lv 60 scaled to 70 that means using lv 70 DR lines, and the CW is missing chilling presence rank 4 and either spell twisting or icy veins which will give a substantial amount of boost to DPS. Also note, SS is still doing 43% of the total DPS inflicted, which is enormous. Something must be done about it. Even if you remove it completely the CW still outDPS the SW, but who would do that with such a powerful feat available?
I'm expecting to see it go up by 2,5mil DPS (wild guess) for having spell twisting (more encounters + more dailies) and rank 4 chilling presence. The SW already had all important feats aside from the 20% power boost dark revelry. So my estimation is 9mil DPS vs 3mil DPS at 70.
That doesn't put SWs as the single target highest striker. And 9mil DPS I doubt even the best of TRs or HRs will compete with that, if you can prove me wrong I would love that you play trough the same test as I did, I simply don't have the classes on the same gear levels to test this.
Cheers
that is: when I say "cws need to lose half of damage", that not only should be taken literally, but still conservative? hahahha. really? single target?
Uh...I see SW - 19k DPS, CW - 20.3k DPS. Your tests were not the same duration.
I didn't pay attention I might have been writing on the forums for a bit then started the test which would make the ACT log time metric incorrect, which is probably what happened.
I may have missed out by a second or two but no more, which puts CW well above twice the amount of dmg the SW did. All the data other than total damage may be unreliable on the ACT log itself because I'm fairly new and inexperienced at using ACT... (That's why I had to use my stopwatch to do this test, I don't know how to do it with the ACT.)
This time hit clear encounter, and the stop watch, then started DPS'ing and hit end encounter when 2minutes was up. (Difference is now I paid attention to when I hit clear encounter so the clock doesn't tick while I'm posting the forums :P) That should be the correct results.
Edit: I looked online and figured out my mistake, I'll post new results with correct values in a couple minutes
I am the monk, martial skill transcends the battlefield
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
The updated results for CW. Thanks for pointing out my mistake abaddon.
50k encounter DPS, that fits in with the numbers I was bringing up earlier.
I am the monk, martial skill transcends the battlefield
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
I play 3 characters: renegade CW, trapper HR, and buff/debuff/dps DC.
Of all 3 characters, CW is worst for solo. DC is middle. trapper HR is easily best for solo.
Trapper HR can solo cc-immune/resistant mob without too much trouble, as long I can avoid the one-shot.
All my characters have soulforged (for one-shot protection) and angel of protection (for incoming damage mitigation and for healing).
The problem with trapper HR is that, he does not support the party well, except to provide combat advantage, which the party may already have. CW is middle for party support. His support is actually very good but the DC has even better party support.
DC capstone feat gives a cooldown reduction which is very nice for spamming heals,buff,debuff,dps and "interrupts" such as sunburst. and chains for control.
Except for CW shield, I don't see how CW is overpowerd. CW only has 3 consecutive dodges. Without shield, 3 dodges is not enough to stay alive at all times in a difficult fight. CW's will need support to stay alive and, like HR's, people will start talking about "bad CW's" who are more liability than benefit to the party. Out of all my 3 characters, I have least faith in my CW to survive in module 6.
In module 6, we are much more likely to see 5 DC/paladin parties than 5 CW parties.
If other classes want to join a DC/paladin party, they better have some solo survivability because the tank/healer cant protect everyone all the time.
I think, that ppl should level their chars to 70, do some testing and demand a correction AFTER they have seen valid results.
On live a good 20k SW using AD and MC set can do TWICE the dmg of a 22k CW in ELOL. He kills scorpions and golems in seconds. He can get up to 3 million dmg from the first trash mob group by burning them all down with one TT.
I have seen TRs/ DCs outperforming similar geared CWs in ELOL dps wise.
The CW brings to much group buffs to the table, what about damage DC? He does more damage at BIS lvl AND buffs the party damage by up to 100% AND does some healing. Throw in one point in cleanse feat and he removes DOT effects. Sacrifice one other point and he heals while dishing dmg.
Have you seen the common denominator of successful runs on preview? DC and GF. They can tone down the incoming dmg while buffing party damage. Compare the CWs buffs to that feats. Temt SW can do insane dmg AND heal.
Did you see me in DC, SW or GF forum asking for a 'fix', no. This is the situation on live for month. Seen for month known for month. I am fine with one class outperforming the other concerning group utility. I am fine with other classes than CW doing more dmg than CW, why not. You ask for a 'fix' based on one ATC done with a lvl 60 char with lvl 60 gear and without the lvl 70 boons, way to go.
If this hits live and a CW can do twice the dmg of a dmg SW AND geve group buffs, I would ask for a buff for SW, not a 'fix' for CW.
PS. Do I like the fact, that 50% of CWs dmg is based on random procs, no, but nerfing one thing wthout a compensation will destroy a class. just look at the PvE GWF on live.
On live a good 20k SW using AD and MC set can do TWICE the dmg of a 22k CW in ELOL. He kills scorpions and golems in seconds. He can get up to 3 million dmg from the first trash mob group by burning them all down with one TT.
I have seen TRs/ DCs outperforming similar geared CWs in ELOL dps wise.
.
People who are talking for a nerf to CWs on mod6 should go uninstall the game as of right now
Current situation is exactly as described by the quoted post. SW rules all, TR/DC/CW come second with that usual order. Period. A note for the PVP radicals, this is PVE data, go back to your dom caves now.
Noone can say anything till module 6 hits live so whoever worries about the re-appearance of the ultra powerfull CW please stop, this is long gone and never coming back. The only stupid thing currently on this game, dps wise, is the SW gamebreaking 500k-1M hits, obliterating golems and scorpions like T1 adds..
People who are talking for a nerf to CWs on mod6 should go uninstall the game as of right now
Current situation is exactly as described by the quoted post. SW rules all, TR/DC/CW come second with that usual order. Period. A note for the PVP radicals, this is PVE data, go back to your dom caves now.
Noone can say anything till module 6 hits live so whoever worries about the re-appearance of the ultra powerfull CW please stop, this is long gone and never coming back. The only stupid thing currently on this game, dps wise, is the SW gamebreaking 500k-1M hits, obliterating golems and scorpions like T1 adds..
The tests were conducted in mod 6 preview server,
SWs were heavily nerfed in m6, don't confuse live with preview.
My tests effectively prove the wizards have double the DPS my warlock does in m6, so please stop making false/misleading claims.
I am the monk, martial skill transcends the battlefield
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
Oh sorry we got it all wrong, cws and stormspell are underperforming.
I think they deserve more procs more base damage a buff to shield more personal artifact gears and more control.
This should bring them in line in other classes.
Oh sorry we got it all wrong, cws and stormspell are underperforming.
I think they deserve more procs more base damage a buff to shield more personal artifact gears and more control.
This should bring them in line in other classes.
Is the proc mechanic stupid, yes. Would I prefer to deal dmg depending on skill, skills, build and rotation, yes. Do I want it 'fixed' by cryptic, no. Why not, bc they prefer to do the easy thing and not the right thing.
Just look at the GWF. A meh class, buffed to godlike OPness, nerfed to second to last place in PvP and last pace in PvE. PPl came up with the intimidation build and 23k+ GS GWFs oneshoted no tanacity 10k PuGs in PvP, I did it myself on my GWF. First nerf. Some ppl, with good intentions, suggested to make it depend on weapon dmg, to make power stacking obsolete. Now they did that, gave it a crappy base dmg and removed some multipliers, making it totaly undesireable.
A 'fix' would sound like 'we felt, that storm spell was overperforming, so we halfed its dmg and it will proc once in a blue moon. This should not effect CWs performance at all, have a good day'. In effect taking away 30-40% of CWs dmg and giving him nothing to compensate that. GWF did 40% of his damage with bleeds. They 'fixed' that, too.
Even if CW would be the top dog dmg dealer in PvE or PvP (he is not) 'fixing' storm spell on its own would not resolve an issue, but create one.
Is the proc mechanic stupid, yes. Would I prefer to deal dmg depending on skill, skills, build and rotation, yes. Do I want it 'fixed' by cryptic, no. Why not, bc they prefer to do the easy thing and not the right thing.
Just look at the GWF. A meh class, buffed to godlike OPness, nerfed to second to last place in PvP and last pace in PvE. PPl came up with the intimidation build and 23k+ GS GWFs oneshoted no tanacity 10k PuGs in PvP, I did it myself on my GWF. First nerf. Some ppl, with good intentions, suggested to make it depend on weapon dmg, to make power stacking obsolete. Now they did that, gave it a crappy base dmg and removed some multipliers, making it totaly undesireable.
A 'fix' would sound like 'we felt, that storm spell was overperforming, so we halfed its dmg and it will proc once in a blue moon. This should not effect CWs performance at all, have a good day'. In effect taking away 30-40% of CWs dmg and giving him nothing to compensate that. GWF did 40% of his damage with bleeds. They 'fixed' that, too.
Even if CW would be the top dog dmg dealer in PvE or PvP (he is not) 'fixing' storm spell on its own would not resolve an issue, but create one.
just wanting to point out that cws have the lowest cooldowns on skills, the highest damage, the highest damage multiplier after gwf and is the class with less target cap.
fixing storm spell is not a drama like they making it seem. Indeed stuffs should not proc for 20k !
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fr3akout3Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 72
edited March 2015
Running all maxed up TR, GWF & CW. CW outperforms in PVE any way.. 30-50% more dps. Mod 6 CW all rounder better than any class.
Isn't the CW the dev teams favourite class anyway? So it's expected. The main devs play it and pay most attention to the class, hence the OP power greed possibly.
Needs a tone down or buff other classes.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited March 2015
Or maybe it's because when the Devs post changes to the class, the CW threads are filled with productive posts, active (and respectful) discussion and actual data.
Most of the other class "balance" threads are just PvP pissing contests, with each class desperately fighting to get everyone else nerfed.
just wanting to point out that cws have the lowest cooldowns on skills, the highest damage, the highest damage multiplier after gwf and is the class with less target cap.
fixing storm spell is not a drama like they making it seem. Indeed stuffs should not proc for 20k !
With the right build and buffs it procs way higher than 20k, but it would be a serious nerf. To lose 30-40% of your PvE dps is a serious nerf. Only GFs would do less dmg than a CW on live with this changes (based on compareable gear and skill).
I agree on the target cap argument (there are other classes with no target cap abilities, but with smaller areas of effect as far as I know), but seriously, you play a HR and you are trying to tell me, that CWs have the lowest CDs? Even without royal guard set a trapper can almost run a whole dungeon spamming encounters and dailies without waiting on CDs (the ones ignoring the tab mechanics excluded), when playing WAI. TRs can (ab)use a certain daily and a certain feat, to reset CDs. DCs with a certain build can cast an empowered encounter for every at will attack they cast.
IF CWs would have the lowest CDs, highest dmg and multipliers, they would deal the most damage in dungeons, they do not.
Running all maxed up TR, GWF & CW. CW outperforms in PVE any way.. 30-50% more dps. Mod 6 CW all rounder better than any class.
Isn't the CW the dev teams favourite class anyway? So it's expected. The main devs play it and pay most attention to the class, hence the OP power greed possibly.
Needs a tone down or buff other classes.
I agree on GWF, disagree on TR and you did not mention SW, HR or DC. Is your argument, that GWFs dmg sucks, so plz nerf CWs dmg, too?
By your agument I could ask them to double the dmg of my CW bc BIS SWs do more than twice the dmg of any other class in ELOL atm.
I run sometimes with a 20k+ SW. He claims, that he has NEVER seen any char (besides some other SWs) doing HALF of his dmg in ELOL. I have not seen him proven wrong and we did runs with BIS or close to BIS players.
Or maybe it's because when the Devs post changes to the class, the CW threads are filled with productive posts, active (and respectful) discussion and actual data.
Most of the other class "balance" threads are just PvP pissing contests, with each class desperately fighting to get everyone else nerfed.
MM ok so all cws pissing on other classes forums about nerf this and nerf that and the crying on own forum as soon some adjustment dowards happens is all imaginary ...
Dear me i must have read it all wrong again ......
MM ok so all cws pissing on other classes forums about nerf this and nerf that and the crying on own forum as soon some adjustment dowards happens is all imaginary ...
Dear me i must have read it all wrong again ......
So if it happens to CWs it is called an 'adjustment dowards' and all other classes get 'nerfed'. Interesting.
I know, that there are some ppl crying to nerf this or that, no matter the class. Thing is, if it WOULD be a broken machanic, making CWs OP, I would not defend it, like assailant dealing true dmg at the beginning of mod 4, I think. Run a dungeon with good PvE dps DCs, TRs, SWs or HRs. IF CW would outdps them (he wont) by 30-40%, you could start an argument, not bc it contributes to a high ammount af overall dmg.
HR RoA does more than 30% of your dps, nerf that. Exe TR SoD does 25-50% of your dmg, OP. I have not seen the ATC of a good dmg DC, so no comment there. Last but not least SW TT does 40% of the dmg of the PARTY, nerf that spell,...wait they did.
Do not know on other classes threads, but on GWF-class thread, the main complainers about our suggested buffs to the class are, curious thing, CW-players whose deny actual and provided data, ignore facts, making false statements and providing biased and false data and, best at all, telling us, GWF-players, how to play our own class.
I agree on GWFs needing a buff. Seems like they got it in PvE MOD 6, PvP...
Just bc ppl started out playing a CW does not say, that they cant or dont play other classes. I, for an example can only comment on my expirience playing mid level PvP and end game PvE. I would refrain from comments on end game premade PvP performaces. I know for a fact, that GWF is screwed PvE wise compared to other classes, concidering dps and group utility. I know, that CW is doing well, but DCs are much stronger concerning group utility with good dps and SWs, if played right are so far above every other class, that I wonder, that a SW started a 'nerf that' post.
Lets just wait for REAL SOLID COMPAREABLE data and not one ATC, based on tweaked lvl 60 toons before we fill 10 more pages with 'nerf this' posts.
Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited March 2015
Every mod comes out with the same effing threads , how or why they are allowed is beyond me but whatever.
I want to see the top DPS classes act logs with proficient players at same gear level, (then it needs to be done at blue and epic levels to see how starters do, you cant just nerf things without looking at all of this)
This is what they did to the GWF and that class had its heart ripped out of it due to across the board nerfs that were way over the top, of course the people who only play one class dont care, they are quite happy to see other classes ripped apart. Which is why the actual people calling for balance is a very small minority.
Most people do not want balance, they just want that "other" class ripped apart and their own class buffed.
Showing a couple of act logs do not prove anything.
Every mod comes out with the same effing threads , how or why they are allowed is beyond me but whatever.
I want to see the top DPS classes act logs with proficient players at same gear level, (then it needs to be done at blue and epic levels to see how starters do, you cant just nerf things without looking at all of this)
This is what they did to the GWF and that class had its heart ripped out of it due to across the board nerfs that were way over the top, of course the people who only play one class dont care, they are quite happy to see other classes ripped apart. Which is why the actual people calling for balance is a very small minority.
Most people do not want balance, they just want that "other" class ripped apart and their own class buffed.
Showing a couple of act logs do not prove anything.
Yes,that was always the case and it's a good thing the Devs do what they think is best,without listening too much to the forums and the pety squabbles that go on there.The bugs section of the forum,including all "technical issues" stickys, is the only thread that i find,has any reason of existing.
Showing a couple of act logs do not prove anything.
Game history does. Who would you take to CN in m1? CWs, so they time Sings or push the adds through the door (before it got fixed. Any other class - shoo shoo. M2, "wow, gwfs are kicking us from a throne. Let's make friends with em and secretely complain about em so they leave it" and so in m3 GWF get nerfed, still could catch up CWs in DPS but not really... m4 Class balancing post, devs telling us they realized that CWs were fitting to many roles. What we've got in the end? Broken storm spell, basically pseudonerf. m5-m6 the story repeats but with SWs.
...and they say ACT is not enough. I bet you've got a lame counteragument for any data one could ever provide.
Most people do not want balance, they just want that "other" class ripped apart and their own class buffed.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. And a lot of it revolves around PvP.
Part of playing the PvP-meta game is to make sure that when you post on the forum about "balance", it's making sure you get the best buffs and the other classes get nerfed.
Luckily a vast majority of this player "feedback" is ignored by the Devs because they can see through it. But if a class lacks vocal advocates that can communicate their ideas effectively, they get squashed. That's one thing that benefits the CW. Most of the top CWs could care less about PvP, and focus their testing on PvE. So that feedback works its way up the chain and gets listened to, and its rare that a CW thread gets highjacked for more than a few posts about PvP, whereas in other threads stupid PvP back and forth can go on for pages.
It's ultimately why we need a PvP forum, so that all that feedback can get bottled up and contained, and hopefully some classes, like the GWF, will stop getting torn apart because of PvP complainers.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. And a lot of it revolves around PvP.
Part of playing the PvP-meta game is to make sure that when you post on the forum about "balance", it's making sure you get the best buffs and the other classes get nerfed.
Luckily a vast majority of this player "feedback" is ignored by the Devs because they can see through it. But if a class lacks vocal advocates that can communicate their ideas effectively, they get squashed. That's one thing that benefits the CW. Most of the top CWs could care less about PvP, and focus their testing on PvE. So that feedback works its way up the chain and gets listened to, and its rare that a CW thread gets highjacked for more than a few posts about PvP, whereas in other threads stupid PvP back and forth can go on for pages.
It's ultimately why we need a PvP forum, so that all that feedback can get bottled up and contained, and hopefully some classes, like the GWF, will stop getting torn apart because of PvP complainers.
this is one reason pvp and pve should be 2 separte games nerfing pve cw when it hurts pvp cw makes no sence and vice versa
this woudl also make les compalints about pve players in pvp matches and pvp players in pve content
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fr3akout3Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 72
I agree on GWF, disagree on TR and you did not mention SW, HR or DC. Is your argument, that GWFs dmg sucks, so plz nerf CWs dmg, too?
By your agument I could ask them to double the dmg of my CW bc BIS SWs do more than twice the dmg of any other class in ELOL atm.
I run sometimes with a 20k+ SW. He claims, that he has NEVER seen any char (besides some other SWs) doing HALF of his dmg in ELOL. I have not seen him proven wrong and we did runs with BIS or close to BIS players.
Omg how blunt are you, slap across the face. Mod 6 is not ATM! Before you post anything please just go on preview and test few things out and come back with a few results.
Yeah yeah yeah, same old arguments again. "Let's not mix PvP with PvE". IT IS NOT JUST PVP! It's PvE too, in fact, it's even worse in PvE than in PvP . Class is literally better for everything then the rest, Denvald and the others have pointed it out many times in previous pages. And devs do listen to what the players are crying about. TRs got nerfed at first because casters complained a lot. Now TRs got buffed because TRs requested changes since they were literally rolled into the ground with the nerf hammer and noone wanted them in a party for PvE, I say that as a former PvE rogue.
And the worst thing is that all of you guys, noone of you, acknowledges that the arguments might be true. I mean, I do agree 2.3m ticks of SW's TT is not OK as a SW. But 22k tick of a **** class feature which happened on at-will...haha...really. Not to mention I also seen it procing twice or thrice on 1 crit instead of supposed one proc. And your daily, Opressing Force. I saw some CWs scoring 2.5m+ damage with just this daily. So I am with Lazaroth on his statement except for I am going to add that "Everything that applies to GWFs and SWs, does not seem to apply for CWs".
Yeah yeah yeah, same old arguments again. "Let's not mix PvP with PvE". IT IS NOT JUST PVP! It's PvE too, in fact, it's even worse in PvE than in PvP . Class is literally better for everything then the rest, Denvald and the others have pointed it out many times in previous pages. And devs do listen to what the players are crying about. TRs got nerfed at first because casters complained a lot. Now TRs got buffed because TRs requested changes since they were literally rolled into the ground with the nerf hammer and noone wanted them in a party for PvE, I say that as a former PvE rogue.
And the worst thing is that all of you guys, noone of you, acknowledges that the arguments might be true. I mean, I do agree 2.3m ticks of SW's TT is not OK as a SW. But 22k tick of a **** class feature which happened on at-will...haha...really. Not to mention I also seen it procing twice or thrice on 1 crit instead of supposed one proc. And your daily, Opressing Force. I saw some CWs scoring 2.5m+ damage with just this daily. So I am with Lazaroth on his statement except for I am going to add that "Everything that applies to GWFs and SWs, does not seem to apply for CWs".
Spot on.
A TT nerf while boosting other aspects of the class would be good. A TT nerf on its own is very meh, but perhaps, closing both eyes and plugging, understandable.
Nerfing TT, nerfing Creeping Death, and ****ing up Temptation capstone is where I go "My mind is full of ****."
And then of course we get people here arguing about poor widdle wizards in mod 6 using data from *live* AKA mod 5 SW damage output for comedy gold.
Omg how blunt are you, slap across the face. Mod 6 is not ATM! Before you post anything please just go on preview and test few things out and come back with a few results.
Reason why I mentioned the 3 because of testing.
OMG english is not my first language, but the problem is, what YOU wrote, not what I understand. You said:
'Running all maxed up TR, GWF & CW. CW outperforms in PVE any way.. 30-50% more dps....'
Are you talking about Mod 6? Concidering your NEW post, I would assume. You might have added a 'on preview' or in Mod 6, but hey, YOU knew, what you wanted to say...
Next sentence: '...Mod 6 CW all rounder better than any class.' Well, I think, I must be a little bit slow, bc I did not understand, that THIS implements, that the FIRST sentence was clearly a statement concerning Mod 6, because I should have seen the logical context of CW outdpsing TR and GWF = better than ANY class.
I DID play on preview, I DID NOT start some 'nerf post' with flawed ACT data, I said, that we need SOLID data, we dont have. IF someone asks for a change HE has to back up his claims, NOT the other way around.
BTW, concidering the ACT logs I HAVE seen GWF did the most dmg in group fights, but no one started a nerf MOD 6 GWF post, bc GWF needs some love and nobody can really predict, what will go live in a few weeks.
Comments
that is: when I say "cws need to lose half of damage", that not only should be taken literally, but still conservative? hahahha. really? single target?
ps: no, i still dont like act.
I didn't pay attention I might have been writing on the forums for a bit then started the test which would make the ACT log time metric incorrect, which is probably what happened.
I may have missed out by a second or two but no more, which puts CW well above twice the amount of dmg the SW did. All the data other than total damage may be unreliable on the ACT log itself because I'm fairly new and inexperienced at using ACT... (That's why I had to use my stopwatch to do this test, I don't know how to do it with the ACT.)
This time hit clear encounter, and the stop watch, then started DPS'ing and hit end encounter when 2minutes was up. (Difference is now I paid attention to when I hit clear encounter so the clock doesn't tick while I'm posting the forums :P) That should be the correct results.
Edit: I looked online and figured out my mistake, I'll post new results with correct values in a couple minutes
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
50k encounter DPS, that fits in with the numbers I was bringing up earlier.
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
Of all 3 characters, CW is worst for solo. DC is middle. trapper HR is easily best for solo.
Trapper HR can solo cc-immune/resistant mob without too much trouble, as long I can avoid the one-shot.
All my characters have soulforged (for one-shot protection) and angel of protection (for incoming damage mitigation and for healing).
The problem with trapper HR is that, he does not support the party well, except to provide combat advantage, which the party may already have. CW is middle for party support. His support is actually very good but the DC has even better party support.
DC capstone feat gives a cooldown reduction which is very nice for spamming heals,buff,debuff,dps and "interrupts" such as sunburst. and chains for control.
Except for CW shield, I don't see how CW is overpowerd. CW only has 3 consecutive dodges. Without shield, 3 dodges is not enough to stay alive at all times in a difficult fight. CW's will need support to stay alive and, like HR's, people will start talking about "bad CW's" who are more liability than benefit to the party. Out of all my 3 characters, I have least faith in my CW to survive in module 6.
In module 6, we are much more likely to see 5 DC/paladin parties than 5 CW parties.
If other classes want to join a DC/paladin party, they better have some solo survivability because the tank/healer cant protect everyone all the time.
On live a good 20k SW using AD and MC set can do TWICE the dmg of a 22k CW in ELOL. He kills scorpions and golems in seconds. He can get up to 3 million dmg from the first trash mob group by burning them all down with one TT.
I have seen TRs/ DCs outperforming similar geared CWs in ELOL dps wise.
The CW brings to much group buffs to the table, what about damage DC? He does more damage at BIS lvl AND buffs the party damage by up to 100% AND does some healing. Throw in one point in cleanse feat and he removes DOT effects. Sacrifice one other point and he heals while dishing dmg.
Have you seen the common denominator of successful runs on preview? DC and GF. They can tone down the incoming dmg while buffing party damage. Compare the CWs buffs to that feats. Temt SW can do insane dmg AND heal.
Did you see me in DC, SW or GF forum asking for a 'fix', no. This is the situation on live for month. Seen for month known for month. I am fine with one class outperforming the other concerning group utility. I am fine with other classes than CW doing more dmg than CW, why not. You ask for a 'fix' based on one ATC done with a lvl 60 char with lvl 60 gear and without the lvl 70 boons, way to go.
If this hits live and a CW can do twice the dmg of a dmg SW AND geve group buffs, I would ask for a buff for SW, not a 'fix' for CW.
PS. Do I like the fact, that 50% of CWs dmg is based on random procs, no, but nerfing one thing wthout a compensation will destroy a class. just look at the PvE GWF on live.
I suppose it makes a change from complaints about TR...
People who are talking for a nerf to CWs on mod6 should go uninstall the game as of right now
Current situation is exactly as described by the quoted post. SW rules all, TR/DC/CW come second with that usual order. Period. A note for the PVP radicals, this is PVE data, go back to your dom caves now.
Noone can say anything till module 6 hits live so whoever worries about the re-appearance of the ultra powerfull CW please stop, this is long gone and never coming back. The only stupid thing currently on this game, dps wise, is the SW gamebreaking 500k-1M hits, obliterating golems and scorpions like T1 adds..
The tests were conducted in mod 6 preview server,
SWs were heavily nerfed in m6, don't confuse live with preview.
My tests effectively prove the wizards have double the DPS my warlock does in m6, so please stop making false/misleading claims.
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
I think they deserve more procs more base damage a buff to shield more personal artifact gears and more control.
This should bring them in line in other classes.
Is the proc mechanic stupid, yes. Would I prefer to deal dmg depending on skill, skills, build and rotation, yes. Do I want it 'fixed' by cryptic, no. Why not, bc they prefer to do the easy thing and not the right thing.
Just look at the GWF. A meh class, buffed to godlike OPness, nerfed to second to last place in PvP and last pace in PvE. PPl came up with the intimidation build and 23k+ GS GWFs oneshoted no tanacity 10k PuGs in PvP, I did it myself on my GWF. First nerf. Some ppl, with good intentions, suggested to make it depend on weapon dmg, to make power stacking obsolete. Now they did that, gave it a crappy base dmg and removed some multipliers, making it totaly undesireable.
A 'fix' would sound like 'we felt, that storm spell was overperforming, so we halfed its dmg and it will proc once in a blue moon. This should not effect CWs performance at all, have a good day'. In effect taking away 30-40% of CWs dmg and giving him nothing to compensate that. GWF did 40% of his damage with bleeds. They 'fixed' that, too.
Even if CW would be the top dog dmg dealer in PvE or PvP (he is not) 'fixing' storm spell on its own would not resolve an issue, but create one.
just wanting to point out that cws have the lowest cooldowns on skills, the highest damage, the highest damage multiplier after gwf and is the class with less target cap.
fixing storm spell is not a drama like they making it seem. Indeed stuffs should not proc for 20k !
Isn't the CW the dev teams favourite class anyway? So it's expected. The main devs play it and pay most attention to the class, hence the OP power greed possibly.
Needs a tone down or buff other classes.
Most of the other class "balance" threads are just PvP pissing contests, with each class desperately fighting to get everyone else nerfed.
With the right build and buffs it procs way higher than 20k, but it would be a serious nerf. To lose 30-40% of your PvE dps is a serious nerf. Only GFs would do less dmg than a CW on live with this changes (based on compareable gear and skill).
I agree on the target cap argument (there are other classes with no target cap abilities, but with smaller areas of effect as far as I know), but seriously, you play a HR and you are trying to tell me, that CWs have the lowest CDs? Even without royal guard set a trapper can almost run a whole dungeon spamming encounters and dailies without waiting on CDs (the ones ignoring the tab mechanics excluded), when playing WAI. TRs can (ab)use a certain daily and a certain feat, to reset CDs. DCs with a certain build can cast an empowered encounter for every at will attack they cast.
IF CWs would have the lowest CDs, highest dmg and multipliers, they would deal the most damage in dungeons, they do not.
I agree on GWF, disagree on TR and you did not mention SW, HR or DC. Is your argument, that GWFs dmg sucks, so plz nerf CWs dmg, too?
By your agument I could ask them to double the dmg of my CW bc BIS SWs do more than twice the dmg of any other class in ELOL atm.
I run sometimes with a 20k+ SW. He claims, that he has NEVER seen any char (besides some other SWs) doing HALF of his dmg in ELOL. I have not seen him proven wrong and we did runs with BIS or close to BIS players.
MM ok so all cws pissing on other classes forums about nerf this and nerf that and the crying on own forum as soon some adjustment dowards happens is all imaginary ...
Dear me i must have read it all wrong again ......
So if it happens to CWs it is called an 'adjustment dowards' and all other classes get 'nerfed'. Interesting.
I know, that there are some ppl crying to nerf this or that, no matter the class. Thing is, if it WOULD be a broken machanic, making CWs OP, I would not defend it, like assailant dealing true dmg at the beginning of mod 4, I think. Run a dungeon with good PvE dps DCs, TRs, SWs or HRs. IF CW would outdps them (he wont) by 30-40%, you could start an argument, not bc it contributes to a high ammount af overall dmg.
HR RoA does more than 30% of your dps, nerf that. Exe TR SoD does 25-50% of your dmg, OP. I have not seen the ATC of a good dmg DC, so no comment there. Last but not least SW TT does 40% of the dmg of the PARTY, nerf that spell,...wait they did.
I agree on GWFs needing a buff. Seems like they got it in PvE MOD 6, PvP...
Just bc ppl started out playing a CW does not say, that they cant or dont play other classes. I, for an example can only comment on my expirience playing mid level PvP and end game PvE. I would refrain from comments on end game premade PvP performaces. I know for a fact, that GWF is screwed PvE wise compared to other classes, concidering dps and group utility. I know, that CW is doing well, but DCs are much stronger concerning group utility with good dps and SWs, if played right are so far above every other class, that I wonder, that a SW started a 'nerf that' post.
Lets just wait for REAL SOLID COMPAREABLE data and not one ATC, based on tweaked lvl 60 toons before we fill 10 more pages with 'nerf this' posts.
I want to see the top DPS classes act logs with proficient players at same gear level, (then it needs to be done at blue and epic levels to see how starters do, you cant just nerf things without looking at all of this)
This is what they did to the GWF and that class had its heart ripped out of it due to across the board nerfs that were way over the top, of course the people who only play one class dont care, they are quite happy to see other classes ripped apart. Which is why the actual people calling for balance is a very small minority.
Most people do not want balance, they just want that "other" class ripped apart and their own class buffed.
Showing a couple of act logs do not prove anything.
Yes,that was always the case and it's a good thing the Devs do what they think is best,without listening too much to the forums and the pety squabbles that go on there.The bugs section of the forum,including all "technical issues" stickys, is the only thread that i find,has any reason of existing.
...and they say ACT is not enough. I bet you've got a lame counteragument for any data one could ever provide.
WTB Class Reroll please
This is exactly what I'm talking about. And a lot of it revolves around PvP.
Part of playing the PvP-meta game is to make sure that when you post on the forum about "balance", it's making sure you get the best buffs and the other classes get nerfed.
Luckily a vast majority of this player "feedback" is ignored by the Devs because they can see through it. But if a class lacks vocal advocates that can communicate their ideas effectively, they get squashed. That's one thing that benefits the CW. Most of the top CWs could care less about PvP, and focus their testing on PvE. So that feedback works its way up the chain and gets listened to, and its rare that a CW thread gets highjacked for more than a few posts about PvP, whereas in other threads stupid PvP back and forth can go on for pages.
It's ultimately why we need a PvP forum, so that all that feedback can get bottled up and contained, and hopefully some classes, like the GWF, will stop getting torn apart because of PvP complainers.
this woudl also make les compalints about pve players in pvp matches and pvp players in pve content
Omg how blunt are you, slap across the face. Mod 6 is not ATM! Before you post anything please just go on preview and test few things out and come back with a few results.
Reason why I mentioned the 3 because of testing.
And the worst thing is that all of you guys, noone of you, acknowledges that the arguments might be true. I mean, I do agree 2.3m ticks of SW's TT is not OK as a SW. But 22k tick of a **** class feature which happened on at-will...haha...really. Not to mention I also seen it procing twice or thrice on 1 crit instead of supposed one proc. And your daily, Opressing Force. I saw some CWs scoring 2.5m+ damage with just this daily. So I am with Lazaroth on his statement except for I am going to add that "Everything that applies to GWFs and SWs, does not seem to apply for CWs".
WTB Class Reroll please
Spot on.
A TT nerf while boosting other aspects of the class would be good. A TT nerf on its own is very meh, but perhaps, closing both eyes and plugging, understandable.
Nerfing TT, nerfing Creeping Death, and ****ing up Temptation capstone is where I go "My mind is full of ****."
And then of course we get people here arguing about poor widdle wizards in mod 6 using data from *live* AKA mod 5 SW damage output for comedy gold.
OMG english is not my first language, but the problem is, what YOU wrote, not what I understand. You said:
'Running all maxed up TR, GWF & CW. CW outperforms in PVE any way.. 30-50% more dps....'
Are you talking about Mod 6? Concidering your NEW post, I would assume. You might have added a 'on preview' or in Mod 6, but hey, YOU knew, what you wanted to say...
Next sentence: '...Mod 6 CW all rounder better than any class.' Well, I think, I must be a little bit slow, bc I did not understand, that THIS implements, that the FIRST sentence was clearly a statement concerning Mod 6, because I should have seen the logical context of CW outdpsing TR and GWF = better than ANY class.
I DID play on preview, I DID NOT start some 'nerf post' with flawed ACT data, I said, that we need SOLID data, we dont have. IF someone asks for a change HE has to back up his claims, NOT the other way around.
BTW, concidering the ACT logs I HAVE seen GWF did the most dmg in group fights, but no one started a nerf MOD 6 GWF post, bc GWF needs some love and nobody can really predict, what will go live in a few weeks.