a cw hit me 44k damage...
a gwf hit us all 38k damage area...
a gf hit me 36k damage
a tr hit me 32k damage
a dc hit me dot 33k damage
any questions?
all you people saying you made a tr to test... troll somewhere else...
some cw said tr is king pve..
cw can sit in the center of 100+ monsters and win without stealth.. so whats your point?
gwf can do the same...
other classes as well.
stop trying to nerf tr and just stick to your classes.
you wouuld actually play better if you learned how to win instead of copy catting the class and play styles that killed u...
My dear TR deffender, watch this short video and tell me where can you see any shadow of balance? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu8X-bll7aQ
And this isn't exception- this TR has got a few enchants rank 5 and believe me 15k gs TR can shot my 25k GWF with lashing 20k and second, there are DoTs for 20k so this is 40k dmg from 1 skill. If you cant see it and cant do it there are 3 possibilities
- You have no skill and you are just weak in pvp
- you are blind
- you do it for yourself becouse you dont want to nerf TR.
You are very "funny" guy
Nah mate, stop defending this mess. What needs to be done is easy. Removed piercing damage entirely, reduce dazes. problem solved. It is quite shocking to me, to read people are actually in belief that the current TR-PvP mess is caused by people suddenly becoming good at PvP, when in fact their results are due to broken class features/skills...
If the devs finally address the mess they created, believe me, PvP will become a better place again. A 9k GS toon, should never ever be able to 1 hit a 25k GS toon, NEVER. It is nothing but 'disgusting', to say the least.
I am aware of the fact, you all like the easymode gameplay, but this has got to stop. (And you know it)
Sir, that kind of blanket treatment on all TR players is what brings extreme resistance which is the source for all this madness in the boards, if I may advise.
What people are seeing in the TRs is basically a glance upon the coin. TR players see one side and make their comments based on it, while other players see only the opposite side of the coin and make their statements based on it. Ultimately speaking, BOTH parties are right, and therefore the extreme antagonism between people. When you take a step back and try seeing the coin itself, instead of just the sides, then it pretty much comes evident that there is no satisfying everyone when they are obsessed with each of the sides.
That is why balancing IMO should be done in terms of the human element.
I never "defended" anything, sir. Those who actually took time to see what I've wrote in other posts know that I'm with the TRs who actually want the broken OP stuff identified and fixed. Facing down some TR players who are pretty much evident that they don't have any special qualities at all, but only get to win duels or matches because they can spam 3k-per hit BB or 40k+ SE every 30 seconds thanks to broken artifacts and cloaks is just as much a thing to loathe as for us as well.
We think it's basically a joke. There is no worth in any tactics, or outsmarting, or anything in a TR vs TR fight against one of those. Things actually used to be different in around mod2. Every node fight with a TR vs TR situation was breathtaking as I used to remember it. But now, there is no such thing, sir. It's just who has the most broken AP gain with items and gets to spam BB more. It doesn't matter if you outsmart the guy and gain the upperhand. Just a certain amount of time flows and its daily spamming time.
Play badly? It's okay, sir. Wait a bit and spam daily. Outsmarted? Smokebomb, buy time, wait and BB. Got the Sigil of the Devoted? Add in a few extra dailies to be spammed. Win.
No self respecting TR with any sense of balance or PvP gaming fun sees this as normal in my opinion, sir, hence this needs to be addressed as quickly as any other for all classes and their own version of daily spamming included. Then we can see how the TRs are really operating with their capabilities alone, and make judgements, IMO, sir.
Currently, I can guarantee you sir that ALL of the TRs in the first 10 pages of the leaderboards, are the exact same one or two types of TRs with at least more than 70% of their attacks and kills coming from purely dailies alone. This is even affecting the PuG scene now, sir. I see everyday TRs getting kills or wins they should not be getting, surviving, and even winning situations that they shouldn't be winning, because they can simply dance around and daily spam.
Let's get this fixed first, sir, and then we can talk about what's right or wrong.
a cw hit me 44k damage...
a gwf hit us all 38k damage area...
a gf hit me 36k damage
a tr hit me 32k damage
a dc hit me dot 33k damage
any questions?
all you people saying you made a tr to test... troll somewhere else...
some cw said tr is king pve..
cw can sit in the center of 100+ monsters and win without stealth.. so whats your point?
gwf can do the same...
other classes as well.
stop trying to nerf tr and just stick to your classes.
you wouuld actually play better if you learned how to win instead of copy catting the class and play styles that killed u...
dude is rly hard to engage in a talk with someone like you, I cant hit higher than 30k with my Intimidation and that is only if i somehow can manage to stack both marks and you have no dmg reduction. 38k hits are when you got debuffed from multiple sources, i need at least 2 extra debuffs and that means that we are 2v1, while TR can open with a 38k lashing...
You have no clue what other classes do or how they feel when going vs a tr, so how about for a change you start playing other classes and tell us how that goes?!
And TR is PVE king, do you want me to bring out parses from Tia to see that half the dmg done to tiamat comes from SoD?!
dude is rly hard to engage in a talk with someone like you, I cant hit higher than 30k with my Intimidation and that is only if i somehow i can manage to stack both marks and you have no dmg reduction. 38k hits are when you got debuffed from multiple sources, i need at least 2 extra debuffs and that means that we are 2v1, while TR can open with a 38k lashing...
You have no clue what other classes do or how they feel when going vs a tr, so how about for a change you start playing other classes and tell us how that goes?!
And TR is PVE king, do you want me to bring out parses from Tia to see that half the dmg done to tiamat comes from SoD?!
Another reason to get the darned bug fixed quickly, sir. IMO the whole SoD concept itself is a problem, and I think the initial attack is by itself plenty heavy and deadly.
Not to talk about how GWF, to do what he says, must be at what, 20k+ GS?
Also i doubt GWF can tank that much in PvE now after unstoppable nerfs. Sentinel intimidation for sure have better chances. But again, we talk about 20k+ toons to have the build work right, so it also means they outgear the content by 5k+ GS.
Destroyer can't "stay inside a sea of mobs and win". Destro in PvE cannot tank. Can gear up to increase HP and be "tankier", but if you talk about "old-style" GWF who could just jump inside seas of mobs and stay there, you're stuck in module 2-3. Current destroyer can't.
You must be in full PBI armor or perhaps draconic templar, with tons of ls and i'd say sentinel spec to be a PvE brawler, from my experience.
PvE destro can't tank. Determination/ Unstoppable nerf turned DPS builds into runners. You're sprinting all the time, it's not practical and it's all time taken away from DPS where a CW does not have to spend half the time dodging.
Another reason to get the darned bug fixed quickly, sir. IMO the whole SoD concept itself is a problem, and I think the initial attack is by itself plenty heavy and deadly.
And unfortunately the same bug works for HR, but they take so long to fix things...
a cw hit me 44k damage...
a gwf hit us all 38k damage area...
a gf hit me 36k damage
a tr hit me 32k damage
a dc hit me dot 33k damage
any questions?
all you people saying you made a tr to test... troll somewhere else...
some cw said tr is king pve..
cw can sit in the center of 100+ monsters and win without stealth.. so whats your point?
gwf can do the same...
other classes as well.
stop trying to nerf tr and just stick to your classes.
you wouuld actually play better if you learned how to win instead of copy catting the class and play styles that killed u...
The biggest problem with the info you are giving is especially that you give nothing, was those number take in 1vs1 or in a pool of fight.
For me the biggest difference between TR and the rest is how to deal the maximum damage.
TR, does is maximum damage while in stealth, mean in most time on the first shoot. since you also have mechnism that allow 100% crit chance it a real one shot
if we compare with CW (but can be done for most of other class), main damage are very low, to do this kind of damage you need to use combo to prepare your damage. Actually for doing one shot damage you require 2 thing, 1 stack ice on the target with a feat that give 6% more damage per ice lvl and *2 while freeze (also there in pvp the freeze time again someone with 25% tenacity is under the invoc time of ice dagger). the second is absolutly random since you need to get combat advantage and the feat have 20% chance ative while you crit. also if yo uplay with this mechanism you need luck to crit since it mean you are not playing with EOTS.
that the biggest difference. the TR will do is max damage on the begining of the fight and since if you are no concious of TR presence it mainly a non dodgeable attack while in CW case you need at best 4-5 second + some luck to unleash it. and that without considering mechanism that destroy ice stack.
That for the attack part.
The defense part is also TR's favor since only the GF can be compare in defense mechanism.
Only reason GWFs can crit so high is double mark with both TR and Daring Shout THEN youll see a crit for 30k possibly. Also dont forget not only did you have to GET in melee range you had to hit them 2x and then have to CRIT them and THEN it cant be deflected.
For TR?
100% crit chance, bypasses all DR so it cant be deflected. You can stealth and EVERYTIME GUARANTEED get a crit for 30k+.
I was just in GG this morning and a TR 1 shot me with shocking for 44k and my barkshield netted out 2.4k and it STILL 1 shot me since the 41.6k that came through is more HP than I have.
He can do this on command.
No other class has 100% crit and attacks that bypass all DR.
Double mark on GWFs SHOULD be fixed, however this is nowhere near TR OPness. No other class can do that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
a cw hit me 44k damage...
a gwf hit us all 38k damage area...
a gf hit me 36k damage
a tr hit me 32k damage
a dc hit me dot 33k damage
any questions?
all you people saying you made a tr to test... troll somewhere else...
some cw said tr is king pve..
cw can sit in the center of 100+ monsters and win without stealth.. so whats your point?
gwf can do the same...
other classes as well.
stop trying to nerf tr and just stick to your classes.
you wouuld actually play better if you learned how to win instead of copy catting the class and play styles that killed u...
Can't believe ppl are seriously posting stuff like that. I agree that a lot of hyperbole is surrounding the topic, but the fact that TR are currently OP is so obvious it hurts.
Only reason GWFs can crit so high is double mark with both TR and Daring Shout THEN youll see a crit for 30k possibly. Also dont forget not only did you have to GET in melee range you had to hit them 2x and then have to CRIT them and THEN it cant be deflected.
For TR?
100% crit chance, bypasses all DR so it cant be deflected. You can stealth and EVERYTIME GUARANTEED get a crit for 30k+.
I was just in GG this morning and a TR 1 shot me with shocking for 44k and my barkshield netted out 2.4k and it STILL 1 shot me since the 41.6k that came through is more HP than I have.
He can do this on command.
No other class has 100% crit and attacks that bypass all DR.
Double mark on GWFs SHOULD be fixed, however this is nowhere near TR OPness. No other class can do that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
On a related note: GFs can also double mark with TAB + TR. Both marks do not disappear if the GF is hit.
On a related note: GFs can also double mark with TAB + TR. Both marks do not disappear if the GF is hit.
true, but you cant mark what you cant see ). To keep 5 WM stacks, apply double mark and crit hit with both, that is one dumb tr... GFs can do a bit better if they know where is the TR, not get dazed and stack tenebrous enchants.
true, but you cant mark what you cant see ). To keep 5 WM stacks, apply double mark and crit hit with both, that is one dumb tr... GFs can do a bit better if they know where is the TR, not get dazed and stack tenebrous enchants.
As soon as the TR hits you, you have several seconds of no stealth. Double mark and unless they're in ItC you can beat them into paste. Plenty of careless TR's who think that they are as OP as non-TR's think they are. These are the TR's that are delightful to face in PvP.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
As soon as the TR hits you, you have several seconds of no stealth. Double mark and unless they're in ItC you can beat them into paste. Plenty of careless TR's who think that they are as OP as non-TR's think they are. These are the TR's that are delightful to face in PvP.
Then there are the TRs that straight up 1 shot you with SE from stealth because they used their DC arti in spawn.
Then you respawn and not only can they chain bloodbath back to back their at wills HIT for 3-4k with 2500 that bypasses all your DR. Not only that but if you see an exec TR he can just LB you ONCE and run away since his SoD will proc and kill you no matter what.
When you give 100% crit in stealth its just silly. When you ALSO give abilities that bypass all DR, its just silly.
As soon as the TR hits you, you have several seconds of no stealth. Double mark and unless they're in ItC you can beat them into paste. Plenty of careless TR's who think that they are as OP as non-TR's think they are. These are the TR's that are delightful to face in PvP.
The exact time of being visible is 2 second. the very same time of a dodge. that why now you can see many high GS TR using this method.
stealth. one big shoot, dodge stealth, turn around in stealth 8- 10 second, big shoot, dodge etc....
even without stealth Tr'S already have really competitive mechanism when it come to PVP. it does damage, it have a good defense since it based on deflect and most feat that ignore deflect being removed on other class
Not to forget that, on top of all else, TR's are the only class that can almost always bail from a fight at any time.
Doing a PvP domination yesterday, as a 22k CW, I completely lost my cool (which I hate), all because of 1 TR constantly 1-shotting from stealth, dazing and all the usual stuff, but what I find really frustrating is that so many TR's, on taking even a small amount of damage, shoot away like a rocket at a speed just short, seemingly, of all but the fastest mounts, evading every control power sent their way (and how is it they can out-control a Control Wizard?), pop into stealth-mode and before you know it they're back with most health restored and the cycle is renewed, though at this point death is the usual end result because you ineffectively unloaded all your anti-TR measures the first time round.
I, and many others I'm sure, have invested a lot of time and effort into our characters, but when it comes to PvP that dedication is rendered irrelevant by a TR (or 2 in all likelihood) that on paper should be average at best and totally under powered at worst. And this is a shame because PvP in this game is really fun and enjoyable and, until Module 6 arrives is pretty much the only thing left to do.
Also, Stealth should be renamed 'Cloak of Perfect Invisibility' because the last time I checked the word 'stealth' meant to move furtively and carefully to evade detection, as opposed sprinting round at horse speed.
... that was more of a rant than I intended. Sorry.
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chestnut13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 176Arc User
what I find really frustrating is that so many TR's, on taking even a small amount of damage, shoot away like a rocket at a speed just short, seemingly, of all but the fastest mounts, evading every control power sent their way (and how is it they can out-control a Control Wizard?)
Hmph ... and there I was thinking the same about a GWF doing the chicken run.
Not to forget that, on top of all else, TR's are the only class that can almost always bail from a fight at any time.
Doing a PvP domination yesterday, as a 22k CW, I completely lost my cool (which I hate), all because of 1 TR constantly 1-shotting from stealth, dazing and all the usual stuff, but what I find really frustrating is that so many TR's, on taking even a small amount of damage, shoot away like a rocket at a speed just short, seemingly, of all but the fastest mounts, evading every control power sent their way (and how is it they can out-control a Control Wizard?), pop into stealth-mode and before you know it they're back with most health restored and the cycle is renewed, though at this point death is the usual end result because you ineffectively unloaded all your anti-TR measures the first time round.
I, and many others I'm sure, have invested a lot of time and effort into our characters, but when it comes to PvP that dedication is rendered irrelevant by a TR (or 2 in all likelihood) that on paper should be average at best and totally under powered at worst. And this is a shame because PvP in this game is really fun and enjoyable and, until Module 6 arrives is pretty much the only thing left to do.
Also, Stealth should be renamed 'Cloak of Perfect Invisibility' because the last time I checked the word 'stealth' meant to move furtively and carefully to evade detection, as opposed sprinting round at horse speed.
... that was more of a rant than I intended. Sorry.
Exactly what I feel also.
But don't forget daze in your equation because it’s the worst thing of all.
Ill complain about the defensive part since nobody does and it IS a big part of the problem. I could even accept the high dps (not the 1 shotting with encounters and perma dazing though) if they would be far, far, far more killable.
High deflection(easily over 50% + scoundrel's potential 20%)+ itc +stealth+ 4xdodges= a big pile of ****.
Deflection chance seems to reflect tr's stealthiness and agility and with that in mind it makes sense, but in practice giving it both stealth and high deflection chance(AND 4 dodges) is insane(no idea how that made it through testing...). I'd cut both charisma's bonus to deflection and scoundrel's 2 feats(stealth+perma daze+itc+4 dodges, does sco really need that extra 20% defl? cmon...). Both tr and hr have way too much deflection even when considering their 4-5 dodges alone.
ITC's dr and deflection chance bonus makes absolutely no sense. WHY would you give the stealth class a power that makes it invulnerable even when out of stealth ffs? If not remove it completely id leave just the cc immunity. TR is highly playable even without it.
I feel those 2 tweaks would already make tr a lot more human. Some nerfs to the dps paragon feats of both exe and sab, throw scoundrel in the trash can and there u have it. The rest is pure bugs(knife's edge and sod multiproccing, se not respecting tenacity...).
The 100% crit chance from stealth is legit imo but to stay true both to logic and game balance i'd make it 100% only for the 1st strike while the rest of the stealth attacks vs that specific target would just have a certain bonus to it.
Don't take that scoundrel comment personally players, as it is tr as a whole is the peak of our dev's blundering, but giving THIS tr the strongest cc in the game is just WOW...
High deflection(easily over 50% + scoundrel's potential 20%)+ itc +stealth+ 4xdodges= a big pile of ****.
Sir, with all due respect, the numbers are greatly and overly exaggerated. We have been recently through this in other threads with other discussions, and it saddens me a little to see the results of reasonable and calm discussions between people are not known, and the same malicious misinformation, myths spread about the TRs are being propagated endlessly, which ultimately brings about needless antagonism between players of the same community.
Deflection chance seems to reflect tr's[ stealthiness and agility and with that in mind it makes sense, but in practice giving it both stealth and high deflection chance(AND 4 dodges) is insane(no idea how that made it through testing...). I'd cut both charisma's bonus to deflection and scoundrel's 2 feats(stealth+perma daze+itc+4 dodges, does sco really need that extra 20% defl? cmon...). Both tr and hr have way too much deflection even when considering their 4-5 dodges alone.
Realistically speaking the figures a Scoundrel TR stands at are around 40~50% at most, while other Sabos or Execs are at 30~40% which also require a quite high sum of DEX+CHA which in turn sacrifices a lot of HP. One can reach higher numbers just for the heck of it, but usually the end result is a very imbalanced build which people simply do not use in PvP, sir.
Also, you have mentioned above;
[Deflection chance seems to reflect tr's[ stealthiness and agility and with that in mind it makes sense...]
...but then this statement soon meets a bizarre reality that the (conceptually) heavy, tankish, lumbering behemoth of fighters also reach more than 30% deflection in practical, PvP builds, as well as the HRs reaching the 30~40% deflection mark without even half the level of gear a TR has.
ITC's dr and deflection chance bonus makes absolutely no sense. WHY would you give the stealth class a power that makes it invulnerable even when out of stealth ffs? If not remove it completely id leave just the cc immunity. TR is highly playable even without it.
I would generally agree that ITC is too powerful with such a short cooldown, sir.
I feel those 2 tweaks would already make tr a lot more human. Some nerfs to the dps paragon feats of both exe and sab, throw scoundrel in the trash can and there u have it. The rest is pure bugs(knife's edge and sod multiproccing, se not respecting tenacity...).
The 100% crit chance from stealth is legit imo but to stay true both to logic and game balance i'd make it 100% only for the 1st strike while the rest of the stealth attacks vs that specific target would just have a certain bonus to it.
Don't take that scoundrel comment personally players, as it is tr as a whole is the peak of our dev's blundering, but giving THIS tr the strongest cc in the game is just WOW...
I understand the reasons behind the general sentiment, sir, but simply a Scoundrel is currently the weakest, and most balanced TR out of the three. While initially it is a very capable 1vs1 duelist, it's initial strengths are easily rendered obsolete through any kind of fight that involves teams.
Sir, I must emphasize that the problem is not with the specific paths, but rather with those specific paths combined with the following -- this, is what makes SOME TRs currently OP and simply broken, please heed carefully:
based on Executioner or Saboteuer
+ AP Cloak and Sigil of the Divine
+ Master Infiltrator ITC
+ Master Infiltrator Daily SE
+ TR Daily BB
+ TR Saboteuer feat Knife's Edge
+ permastealth if Sabo // 1-shot damage if Exec
+ additional bug exploits for Execs - the SoD bug
end result: Broken OP TR
It is specifically these combinations that bring out the unkillable, uncatchable TR that in turn, kills everything else even in a many vs 1 engagement. Particularly, among the above elements, the single, largest, most ridiculous combination that results in this fallacy is through the abnormal AP gain through the cloak and the DC artifact.
Sir, I would confess with a bit of disappointment that I see in these boards people bashing at the TR all day, but for a very easily guessed reason, none of those people bring up just how broken the AP cloak + DC artifact combination is, when in fact, this is currently the single largest "broken OP" factor that makes the current TRs.
When the dailies are spammable as they are currently, none of the conventional tactics against TRs work, sir. That much is the truth. By just being in combat for 75 seconds a full 100% AP is guranteed. According to how often you attack, this can easily bring down the intervals of daily use to less than 30 seconds.
Then this is combined with Bloodbath and Knife's Edge, which will rest all the encounters upon use...
and then, that is combined with Smokebomb and ITC, which is also reset with BB, and hence can be spammed again...
So effectively, sir, the true "unkillable defenses" of us TRs doesn't have to do with anything deflection, or even stealth. The Executioners at launch of mod5 were considered to be 1 shot glass cannons that was more like a suicide bomber, since it had no real utilities and would gradually be easily hunted down. So it wasn't all that popular at all.
But then look at what the TR players have discovered and started exploiting/abusing:
(1) the SoD double-proc is now out in the open
(2) arifact cloaks and DC artifacts are now the single most desired BiS for ALL classes
(3) Knife's Edge combined with point (2) allows literally BB spamming that allows ITC and Smokebomb spamming
(4) Spamming BB also ensures a steady damage of at least 10k even if you try to dodge it in a row
So basically, sir, for these types of TRs, there is no real 'defense'. It's just 1-shot, run and restealth, fling a few attacks, ITC and run and restealth, repeat the same, this time use smokebomb... run and restealth... oh look, AP full, BB, get all your encoutners reset, and then 1-shot again and repeat the whole process.
There is no active judgements or smarts, baiting, or anything. Literally this whole broken process falls apart the moment Knife's Edge moves up a Tier in the Sabo tree so other trees cannot use it. It also becomes useless when the AP-gain is fixed in PvP. In other words, sir, this has nothing to do with skill, or stats, or defenses.
It's simply spamming special effects with broken features that should have not come into play in PvP -- and this simply goes for all classes as well.
I guarantee sir, that fix the AP cloak and AP artifact, and from that moment instantly all the abuser/exploiter TR builds that were totally centered around it loses more than half of its efficiency.
Sir, this, is what the community should be aiming and demanding a change. Just because other classes also love to spam their dailies, they are staying silent about this. This is simply hypocrytic sir, and us TRs know that.
I am pretty much total agreement with you mirrorballs. I was watching a sab TR pick apart a dozen enemy players in GG that were huddled around trying to figure out how to counter it. Of course they didn't and mostly it was because of the points you mentioned above. I am a TR too, by the way (a wk scoundrel).
Mirrorball is right. And never I see one that blames the artifact and AP cloak and artifact weapons. Maybe they can disable it to TR because if a TR has IT no one can beat TR. But you can beat TR in your dreams.
then you havent read the forums for the past year or so...
I'm sorry for the bit o' exaggeration, sir. I do know many honest players do point this out. However the gross majority of the complaints against the TR in these forums would seek a solution that usually aims at directly nerfing the TR traits/skills alone, rather than extend into the problems with abnormal AP gains -- lest a fair, due fix to this aspect might also deprive them of their own version of abnormal daily spamming.
Sometimes, it is because that many TRs know of this double-standard, that they tend to be really riled up and angered when people look away in stuff that involves themselves, but would so harshly and passionately accuse the TRs for being OP.
It is true, sir, that even with a global nerf to the AP-related gear, that many of the TR features still need further nerfing -- I am not contesting this fact. For one thing the Knife's Edge feat in combination of Bloodbath is simply too much, and the ability of SE to deal more than 40k damage per hit easily is also a huge problem. On top of that, double procs of SoD needs also fixed, and in a sense the entire SoD concept should be revoked IMO, since usually the first strike assisted Exec attacks alone are deadly enough.
Things like the 20% faster stealth regeneration with immunity from stealth-regen halting also seemed like an interesting idea, but ultimately results in problems, as well as the piercing damage of Sabos, as well as the global buff to all TRs in the daze brought out by Shadow Strike... in the end all of these need a fix, sir.
...
But the main problem, right now, something that directly contributes to this TR madness, is daily spamming, and to a certain extent I believe all classes are guilty as well, sir. Other classes have dailies that aren't so obvious powerful, true, but that doesn't mean they should be spamming them as well.
The community needs to form a consensus on the abnormal AP gains issue, sir.
But the main problem, right now, something that directly contributes to this TR madness, is daily spamming, and to a certain extent I believe all classes are guilty as well, sir. Other classes have dailies that aren't so obvious powerful, true, but that doesn't mean they should be spamming them as well.
The community needs to form a consensus on the abnormal AP gains issue
Only ones to be blame are the devs for their inconsistency, right after mod 1 was online there was a major ap nerf when they;ve stated that they dont want dailies to be used like an encounter, they did say that several times since and they did add DC sigil and AP cloaks...
Imo Balance and Q&A teams are dragging this game down hard... so pity the other departments are making such a good product only to be mocked by those!
Sirs, if to simply state what "legit balancing" needs to be done to TRs, I would specifically ask the devs for the following changes to be made:
1. Abnormal AP gain issues
Sigil of the Divine: upon activation it now increases your AP gain by 25/50/75/100% for 15 seconds (double AP gain per attack at legendary rank)
AP cloaks: these items now increase your passive AP gain by 2/3/4/5%
2. General changes to TRs
Common Encounters and Features
Shadow Strike: the daze from stealthed use is now revoked back to 2 seconds
Daze inducing powers now respect the effects of tenacity and CC resistances
Lashing Blade: inherent 50% crit severity increase from stealthed use is now reduced to 25%
First Strike: is now further reduced from 30/45/60% to 20/35/50%
Impossible to Catch: now offers 100% increase of your base deflection chance upon normal use, rather than guaranteed 100% deflection. From stealthed use, the deflection chance increase is set to 100%. Damage resitance removed. CC immunity applies the same
Shocking Execution: damage reduced by 20%
Saboteuers
Knife's Edge: recharge reduction reduced from 3/6/9/12/15% to 2/4/6/8/10%
Knife's Edge: now applies to only first hit to each different target in area
Shadowy Opportunity: now applies as 10/15/20/25/30% damage of the source power
Scoundrels
Concussive Strikes: daze duration reduced from 2.5 to 2 seconds, internal cooldown increased from 5 to 6
Executioner
Shadow of Demise: 20% faster stealth regeneration now removed
Shadow of Demise: entire feat redesigned. SoD now applies "marked for death" debuff upon the target with the use of encounter attacks for 10 seconds. Targets with the mark will receive 20% higher damage from all sources, the effects of healing are reduced to half, movement speed and stamina regeneration is slowed by 20%.
IMO this should be enough to tone down the TRs to a tolerable level, and yet provide enough perks to play it. The nerfs to AP-related items are absolutely necessary and must be applied globally, and there can be no exemptions to any of the classes and their own dailies.
The suggested changes to ITC will probably meet the largest resistance for all MI players, but it will have the desired effect so that it a TR wants to max out its defenses as much as possible, it will need to turn to maximum DEX/CHA builds which in turn, will result in much, much more difficulties in coming up a build with high damage/HP build at the same time.
Like I have mentioned before, sirs, Sabos and Execs do not really care for deflection at all, especially MI Sabos and Execs, in that they already have ITC which can be spammed quite frequently, as well as AP-related items which provides another 3-sec immunity tool that even recharges all your encounters, so that stuff like smokebomb and ITC can yet be spammed even more frequently. Hence, with the changes in ITC it will still be protected from CCs, but there is a significantly more chance for damage to go through, as normal Sabo/Execs would be achieving around 70% deflection rate even when under ITC.
For the TR, this chance is high enough to protect very well against one or two enemies, but when 3~5 enemies are attacking at the same time, then the number of attacks are frequent enough to go through that small chance to land. In order to counter this the Sabos and Execs would need to try maximize their normal deflection, which will push them to DEX/CHA builds, but then their attacks and HP will significantly suffer. In a separate post, I have calculated that in order for MI Sabo/Execs to achive over 40% deflection in current PvP gear, without investing much into DEX/CHA stats as they level up, they need to start off with a DEX+CHA sum of 30 or over from the start. When they reach lv60 and gain BiS equipment, at this point their stats would be showing a deflection of around 40%, and still be barely able to reach 40k HP with a specific halfling build.
So at a realistic sense, the gross majority of non-BiS TRs will come up with something around 35% deflection chance, which will give their normal ITC a 70% deflection chance. One or two out of five, six attacks, will make through.
In many cases Shocking Execution will probably still hit as heavy as now, but the nerf to AP related items makes sure that it is never as often and easy as is now currently is. For Executioners, SoD would be changed to an effect which takes effect the further the TR attacks and exploits the effects rather than adding a heavy, direct damage upon attacks which already hit hard. From the standpoint of the victim, a heavy, heavy debuff to healing effects from SoD would provide a chance for the Exec to be very deadly counter to DCs or high-defense classes -- but not by way of simply one-shotting it with ease, but rather as a persistent effect that can be exploited by the TR oneself, or its allies.
This is about as much I can suggest at this point, but if not all is possible, then for certain the absolute priority would be the nerf to the AP items.
Actually, the devs did make daily not to be used as frequent as encounter. After they realised DC sigil giving too much AP, to control the problem they nerf DC's AP gain twice. The first one is when using divine encounter DC generate zero AP, the second one is nerf the best two DC daily so that DC wont gain any AP for 15 sec. However, the problem about DC sigils is other classes with a DC alt can use it and it is inappropriate to nerf one thing twice in a row. Maybe the devs can implement a seperate AP gain penalty for each classes, like giving a -50% AP gain from all source for low AP gain classes (TR). This will solve the Daily spamming but will be objected by TR players.
Actually, the devs did make daily not to be used as frequent as encounter. After they realised DC sigil giving too much AP, to control the problem they nerf DC's AP gain twice. The first one is when using divine encounter DC generate zero AP, the second one is nerf the best two DC daily so that DC wont gain any AP for 15 sec. However, the problem about DC sigils is other classes with a DC alt can use it and it is inappropriate to nerf one thing twice in a row. Maybe the devs can implement a seperate AP gain penalty for each classes, like giving a -50% AP gain from all source for low AP gain classes (TR). This will solve the Daily spamming but will be objected by TR players.
Currently, sir, it seems that the AP cloak is gaining more importance rather than Sigil of the Divine. For instance players without the Sigil of the Divine, are not at much disadvantaged so long as they have the AP cloak, but not the other way around.
Comments
My dear TR deffender, watch this short video and tell me where can you see any shadow of balance?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu8X-bll7aQ
And this isn't exception- this TR has got a few enchants rank 5 and believe me 15k gs TR can shot my 25k GWF with lashing 20k and second, there are DoTs for 20k so this is 40k dmg from 1 skill. If you cant see it and cant do it there are 3 possibilities
- You have no skill and you are just weak in pvp
- you are blind
- you do it for yourself becouse you dont want to nerf TR.
You are very "funny" guy
Sir, that kind of blanket treatment on all TR players is what brings extreme resistance which is the source for all this madness in the boards, if I may advise.
What people are seeing in the TRs is basically a glance upon the coin. TR players see one side and make their comments based on it, while other players see only the opposite side of the coin and make their statements based on it. Ultimately speaking, BOTH parties are right, and therefore the extreme antagonism between people. When you take a step back and try seeing the coin itself, instead of just the sides, then it pretty much comes evident that there is no satisfying everyone when they are obsessed with each of the sides.
That is why balancing IMO should be done in terms of the human element.
I never "defended" anything, sir. Those who actually took time to see what I've wrote in other posts know that I'm with the TRs who actually want the broken OP stuff identified and fixed. Facing down some TR players who are pretty much evident that they don't have any special qualities at all, but only get to win duels or matches because they can spam 3k-per hit BB or 40k+ SE every 30 seconds thanks to broken artifacts and cloaks is just as much a thing to loathe as for us as well.
We think it's basically a joke. There is no worth in any tactics, or outsmarting, or anything in a TR vs TR fight against one of those. Things actually used to be different in around mod2. Every node fight with a TR vs TR situation was breathtaking as I used to remember it. But now, there is no such thing, sir. It's just who has the most broken AP gain with items and gets to spam BB more. It doesn't matter if you outsmart the guy and gain the upperhand. Just a certain amount of time flows and its daily spamming time.
Play badly? It's okay, sir. Wait a bit and spam daily. Outsmarted? Smokebomb, buy time, wait and BB. Got the Sigil of the Devoted? Add in a few extra dailies to be spammed. Win.
No self respecting TR with any sense of balance or PvP gaming fun sees this as normal in my opinion, sir, hence this needs to be addressed as quickly as any other for all classes and their own version of daily spamming included. Then we can see how the TRs are really operating with their capabilities alone, and make judgements, IMO, sir.
Currently, I can guarantee you sir that ALL of the TRs in the first 10 pages of the leaderboards, are the exact same one or two types of TRs with at least more than 70% of their attacks and kills coming from purely dailies alone. This is even affecting the PuG scene now, sir. I see everyday TRs getting kills or wins they should not be getting, surviving, and even winning situations that they shouldn't be winning, because they can simply dance around and daily spam.
Let's get this fixed first, sir, and then we can talk about what's right or wrong.
dude is rly hard to engage in a talk with someone like you, I cant hit higher than 30k with my Intimidation and that is only if i somehow can manage to stack both marks and you have no dmg reduction. 38k hits are when you got debuffed from multiple sources, i need at least 2 extra debuffs and that means that we are 2v1, while TR can open with a 38k lashing...
You have no clue what other classes do or how they feel when going vs a tr, so how about for a change you start playing other classes and tell us how that goes?!
And TR is PVE king, do you want me to bring out parses from Tia to see that half the dmg done to tiamat comes from SoD?!
Another reason to get the darned bug fixed quickly, sir. IMO the whole SoD concept itself is a problem, and I think the initial attack is by itself plenty heavy and deadly.
Also i doubt GWF can tank that much in PvE now after unstoppable nerfs. Sentinel intimidation for sure have better chances. But again, we talk about 20k+ toons to have the build work right, so it also means they outgear the content by 5k+ GS.
Destroyer can't "stay inside a sea of mobs and win". Destro in PvE cannot tank. Can gear up to increase HP and be "tankier", but if you talk about "old-style" GWF who could just jump inside seas of mobs and stay there, you're stuck in module 2-3. Current destroyer can't.
You must be in full PBI armor or perhaps draconic templar, with tons of ls and i'd say sentinel spec to be a PvE brawler, from my experience.
PvE destro can't tank. Determination/ Unstoppable nerf turned DPS builds into runners. You're sprinting all the time, it's not practical and it's all time taken away from DPS where a CW does not have to spend half the time dodging.
And unfortunately the same bug works for HR, but they take so long to fix things...
The biggest problem with the info you are giving is especially that you give nothing, was those number take in 1vs1 or in a pool of fight.
For me the biggest difference between TR and the rest is how to deal the maximum damage.
TR, does is maximum damage while in stealth, mean in most time on the first shoot. since you also have mechnism that allow 100% crit chance it a real one shot
if we compare with CW (but can be done for most of other class), main damage are very low, to do this kind of damage you need to use combo to prepare your damage. Actually for doing one shot damage you require 2 thing, 1 stack ice on the target with a feat that give 6% more damage per ice lvl and *2 while freeze (also there in pvp the freeze time again someone with 25% tenacity is under the invoc time of ice dagger). the second is absolutly random since you need to get combat advantage and the feat have 20% chance ative while you crit. also if yo uplay with this mechanism you need luck to crit since it mean you are not playing with EOTS.
that the biggest difference. the TR will do is max damage on the begining of the fight and since if you are no concious of TR presence it mainly a non dodgeable attack while in CW case you need at best 4-5 second + some luck to unleash it. and that without considering mechanism that destroy ice stack.
That for the attack part.
The defense part is also TR's favor since only the GF can be compare in defense mechanism.
Only reason GWFs can crit so high is double mark with both TR and Daring Shout THEN youll see a crit for 30k possibly. Also dont forget not only did you have to GET in melee range you had to hit them 2x and then have to CRIT them and THEN it cant be deflected.
For TR?
100% crit chance, bypasses all DR so it cant be deflected. You can stealth and EVERYTIME GUARANTEED get a crit for 30k+.
I was just in GG this morning and a TR 1 shot me with shocking for 44k and my barkshield netted out 2.4k and it STILL 1 shot me since the 41.6k that came through is more HP than I have.
He can do this on command.
No other class has 100% crit and attacks that bypass all DR.
Double mark on GWFs SHOULD be fixed, however this is nowhere near TR OPness. No other class can do that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Can't believe ppl are seriously posting stuff like that. I agree that a lot of hyperbole is surrounding the topic, but the fact that TR are currently OP is so obvious it hurts.
On a related note: GFs can also double mark with TAB + TR. Both marks do not disappear if the GF is hit.
true, but you cant mark what you cant see
As soon as the TR hits you, you have several seconds of no stealth. Double mark and unless they're in ItC you can beat them into paste. Plenty of careless TR's who think that they are as OP as non-TR's think they are. These are the TR's that are delightful to face in PvP.
Then there are the TRs that straight up 1 shot you with SE from stealth because they used their DC arti in spawn.
Then you respawn and not only can they chain bloodbath back to back their at wills HIT for 3-4k with 2500 that bypasses all your DR. Not only that but if you see an exec TR he can just LB you ONCE and run away since his SoD will proc and kill you no matter what.
When you give 100% crit in stealth its just silly. When you ALSO give abilities that bypass all DR, its just silly.
The exact time of being visible is 2 second. the very same time of a dodge. that why now you can see many high GS TR using this method.
stealth. one big shoot, dodge stealth, turn around in stealth 8- 10 second, big shoot, dodge etc....
even without stealth Tr'S already have really competitive mechanism when it come to PVP. it does damage, it have a good defense since it based on deflect and most feat that ignore deflect being removed on other class
Doing a PvP domination yesterday, as a 22k CW, I completely lost my cool (which I hate), all because of 1 TR constantly 1-shotting from stealth, dazing and all the usual stuff, but what I find really frustrating is that so many TR's, on taking even a small amount of damage, shoot away like a rocket at a speed just short, seemingly, of all but the fastest mounts, evading every control power sent their way (and how is it they can out-control a Control Wizard?), pop into stealth-mode and before you know it they're back with most health restored and the cycle is renewed, though at this point death is the usual end result because you ineffectively unloaded all your anti-TR measures the first time round.
I, and many others I'm sure, have invested a lot of time and effort into our characters, but when it comes to PvP that dedication is rendered irrelevant by a TR (or 2 in all likelihood) that on paper should be average at best and totally under powered at worst. And this is a shame because PvP in this game is really fun and enjoyable and, until Module 6 arrives is pretty much the only thing left to do.
Also, Stealth should be renamed 'Cloak of Perfect Invisibility' because the last time I checked the word 'stealth' meant to move furtively and carefully to evade detection, as opposed sprinting round at horse speed.
... that was more of a rant than I intended. Sorry.
Hmph ... and there I was thinking the same about a GWF doing the chicken run.
Exactly what I feel also.
But don't forget daze in your equation because it’s the worst thing of all.
High deflection(easily over 50% + scoundrel's potential 20%)+ itc +stealth+ 4xdodges= a big pile of ****.
Deflection chance seems to reflect tr's stealthiness and agility and with that in mind it makes sense, but in practice giving it both stealth and high deflection chance(AND 4 dodges) is insane(no idea how that made it through testing...). I'd cut both charisma's bonus to deflection and scoundrel's 2 feats(stealth+perma daze+itc+4 dodges, does sco really need that extra 20% defl? cmon...). Both tr and hr have way too much deflection even when considering their 4-5 dodges alone.
ITC's dr and deflection chance bonus makes absolutely no sense. WHY would you give the stealth class a power that makes it invulnerable even when out of stealth ffs? If not remove it completely id leave just the cc immunity. TR is highly playable even without it.
I feel those 2 tweaks would already make tr a lot more human. Some nerfs to the dps paragon feats of both exe and sab, throw scoundrel in the trash can and there u have it. The rest is pure bugs(knife's edge and sod multiproccing, se not respecting tenacity...).
The 100% crit chance from stealth is legit imo but to stay true both to logic and game balance i'd make it 100% only for the 1st strike while the rest of the stealth attacks vs that specific target would just have a certain bonus to it.
Don't take that scoundrel comment personally players, as it is tr as a whole is the peak of our dev's blundering, but giving THIS tr the strongest cc in the game is just WOW...
Sir, with all due respect, the numbers are greatly and overly exaggerated. We have been recently through this in other threads with other discussions, and it saddens me a little to see the results of reasonable and calm discussions between people are not known, and the same malicious misinformation, myths spread about the TRs are being propagated endlessly, which ultimately brings about needless antagonism between players of the same community.
Realistically speaking the figures a Scoundrel TR stands at are around 40~50% at most, while other Sabos or Execs are at 30~40% which also require a quite high sum of DEX+CHA which in turn sacrifices a lot of HP. One can reach higher numbers just for the heck of it, but usually the end result is a very imbalanced build which people simply do not use in PvP, sir.
Also, you have mentioned above;
[Deflection chance seems to reflect tr's[ stealthiness and agility and with that in mind it makes sense...]
...but then this statement soon meets a bizarre reality that the (conceptually) heavy, tankish, lumbering behemoth of fighters also reach more than 30% deflection in practical, PvP builds, as well as the HRs reaching the 30~40% deflection mark without even half the level of gear a TR has.
I would generally agree that ITC is too powerful with such a short cooldown, sir.
I understand the reasons behind the general sentiment, sir, but simply a Scoundrel is currently the weakest, and most balanced TR out of the three. While initially it is a very capable 1vs1 duelist, it's initial strengths are easily rendered obsolete through any kind of fight that involves teams.
Sir, I must emphasize that the problem is not with the specific paths, but rather with those specific paths combined with the following -- this, is what makes SOME TRs currently OP and simply broken, please heed carefully:
It is specifically these combinations that bring out the unkillable, uncatchable TR that in turn, kills everything else even in a many vs 1 engagement. Particularly, among the above elements, the single, largest, most ridiculous combination that results in this fallacy is through the abnormal AP gain through the cloak and the DC artifact.
Sir, I would confess with a bit of disappointment that I see in these boards people bashing at the TR all day, but for a very easily guessed reason, none of those people bring up just how broken the AP cloak + DC artifact combination is, when in fact, this is currently the single largest "broken OP" factor that makes the current TRs.
When the dailies are spammable as they are currently, none of the conventional tactics against TRs work, sir. That much is the truth. By just being in combat for 75 seconds a full 100% AP is guranteed. According to how often you attack, this can easily bring down the intervals of daily use to less than 30 seconds.
Then this is combined with Bloodbath and Knife's Edge, which will rest all the encounters upon use...
and then, that is combined with Smokebomb and ITC, which is also reset with BB, and hence can be spammed again...
So effectively, sir, the true "unkillable defenses" of us TRs doesn't have to do with anything deflection, or even stealth. The Executioners at launch of mod5 were considered to be 1 shot glass cannons that was more like a suicide bomber, since it had no real utilities and would gradually be easily hunted down. So it wasn't all that popular at all.
But then look at what the TR players have discovered and started exploiting/abusing:
(1) the SoD double-proc is now out in the open
(2) arifact cloaks and DC artifacts are now the single most desired BiS for ALL classes
(3) Knife's Edge combined with point (2) allows literally BB spamming that allows ITC and Smokebomb spamming
(4) Spamming BB also ensures a steady damage of at least 10k even if you try to dodge it in a row
So basically, sir, for these types of TRs, there is no real 'defense'. It's just 1-shot, run and restealth, fling a few attacks, ITC and run and restealth, repeat the same, this time use smokebomb... run and restealth... oh look, AP full, BB, get all your encoutners reset, and then 1-shot again and repeat the whole process.
There is no active judgements or smarts, baiting, or anything. Literally this whole broken process falls apart the moment Knife's Edge moves up a Tier in the Sabo tree so other trees cannot use it. It also becomes useless when the AP-gain is fixed in PvP. In other words, sir, this has nothing to do with skill, or stats, or defenses.
It's simply spamming special effects with broken features that should have not come into play in PvP -- and this simply goes for all classes as well.
I guarantee sir, that fix the AP cloak and AP artifact, and from that moment instantly all the abuser/exploiter TR builds that were totally centered around it loses more than half of its efficiency.
Sir, this, is what the community should be aiming and demanding a change. Just because other classes also love to spam their dailies, they are staying silent about this. This is simply hypocrytic sir, and us TRs know that.
then you havent read the forums for the past year or so...
I'm sorry for the bit o' exaggeration, sir. I do know many honest players do point this out. However the gross majority of the complaints against the TR in these forums would seek a solution that usually aims at directly nerfing the TR traits/skills alone, rather than extend into the problems with abnormal AP gains -- lest a fair, due fix to this aspect might also deprive them of their own version of abnormal daily spamming.
Sometimes, it is because that many TRs know of this double-standard, that they tend to be really riled up and angered when people look away in stuff that involves themselves, but would so harshly and passionately accuse the TRs for being OP.
It is true, sir, that even with a global nerf to the AP-related gear, that many of the TR features still need further nerfing -- I am not contesting this fact. For one thing the Knife's Edge feat in combination of Bloodbath is simply too much, and the ability of SE to deal more than 40k damage per hit easily is also a huge problem. On top of that, double procs of SoD needs also fixed, and in a sense the entire SoD concept should be revoked IMO, since usually the first strike assisted Exec attacks alone are deadly enough.
Things like the 20% faster stealth regeneration with immunity from stealth-regen halting also seemed like an interesting idea, but ultimately results in problems, as well as the piercing damage of Sabos, as well as the global buff to all TRs in the daze brought out by Shadow Strike... in the end all of these need a fix, sir.
...
But the main problem, right now, something that directly contributes to this TR madness, is daily spamming, and to a certain extent I believe all classes are guilty as well, sir. Other classes have dailies that aren't so obvious powerful, true, but that doesn't mean they should be spamming them as well.
The community needs to form a consensus on the abnormal AP gains issue, sir.
Only ones to be blame are the devs for their inconsistency, right after mod 1 was online there was a major ap nerf when they;ve stated that they dont want dailies to be used like an encounter, they did say that several times since and they did add DC sigil and AP cloaks...
Imo Balance and Q&A teams are dragging this game down hard... so pity the other departments are making such a good product only to be mocked by those!
1. Abnormal AP gain issues
Sigil of the Divine: upon activation it now increases your AP gain by 25/50/75/100% for 15 seconds (double AP gain per attack at legendary rank)
AP cloaks: these items now increase your passive AP gain by 2/3/4/5%
2. General changes to TRs
Common Encounters and Features
Shadow Strike: the daze from stealthed use is now revoked back to 2 seconds
Daze inducing powers now respect the effects of tenacity and CC resistances
Lashing Blade: inherent 50% crit severity increase from stealthed use is now reduced to 25%
First Strike: is now further reduced from 30/45/60% to 20/35/50%
Impossible to Catch: now offers 100% increase of your base deflection chance upon normal use, rather than guaranteed 100% deflection. From stealthed use, the deflection chance increase is set to 100%. Damage resitance removed. CC immunity applies the same
Shocking Execution: damage reduced by 20%
Saboteuers
Knife's Edge: recharge reduction reduced from 3/6/9/12/15% to 2/4/6/8/10%
Knife's Edge: now applies to only first hit to each different target in area
Shadowy Opportunity: now applies as 10/15/20/25/30% damage of the source power
Scoundrels
Concussive Strikes: daze duration reduced from 2.5 to 2 seconds, internal cooldown increased from 5 to 6
Executioner
Shadow of Demise: 20% faster stealth regeneration now removed
Shadow of Demise: entire feat redesigned. SoD now applies "marked for death" debuff upon the target with the use of encounter attacks for 10 seconds. Targets with the mark will receive 20% higher damage from all sources, the effects of healing are reduced to half, movement speed and stamina regeneration is slowed by 20%.
IMO this should be enough to tone down the TRs to a tolerable level, and yet provide enough perks to play it. The nerfs to AP-related items are absolutely necessary and must be applied globally, and there can be no exemptions to any of the classes and their own dailies.
The suggested changes to ITC will probably meet the largest resistance for all MI players, but it will have the desired effect so that it a TR wants to max out its defenses as much as possible, it will need to turn to maximum DEX/CHA builds which in turn, will result in much, much more difficulties in coming up a build with high damage/HP build at the same time.
Like I have mentioned before, sirs, Sabos and Execs do not really care for deflection at all, especially MI Sabos and Execs, in that they already have ITC which can be spammed quite frequently, as well as AP-related items which provides another 3-sec immunity tool that even recharges all your encounters, so that stuff like smokebomb and ITC can yet be spammed even more frequently. Hence, with the changes in ITC it will still be protected from CCs, but there is a significantly more chance for damage to go through, as normal Sabo/Execs would be achieving around 70% deflection rate even when under ITC.
For the TR, this chance is high enough to protect very well against one or two enemies, but when 3~5 enemies are attacking at the same time, then the number of attacks are frequent enough to go through that small chance to land. In order to counter this the Sabos and Execs would need to try maximize their normal deflection, which will push them to DEX/CHA builds, but then their attacks and HP will significantly suffer. In a separate post, I have calculated that in order for MI Sabo/Execs to achive over 40% deflection in current PvP gear, without investing much into DEX/CHA stats as they level up, they need to start off with a DEX+CHA sum of 30 or over from the start. When they reach lv60 and gain BiS equipment, at this point their stats would be showing a deflection of around 40%, and still be barely able to reach 40k HP with a specific halfling build.
So at a realistic sense, the gross majority of non-BiS TRs will come up with something around 35% deflection chance, which will give their normal ITC a 70% deflection chance. One or two out of five, six attacks, will make through.
In many cases Shocking Execution will probably still hit as heavy as now, but the nerf to AP related items makes sure that it is never as often and easy as is now currently is. For Executioners, SoD would be changed to an effect which takes effect the further the TR attacks and exploits the effects rather than adding a heavy, direct damage upon attacks which already hit hard. From the standpoint of the victim, a heavy, heavy debuff to healing effects from SoD would provide a chance for the Exec to be very deadly counter to DCs or high-defense classes -- but not by way of simply one-shotting it with ease, but rather as a persistent effect that can be exploited by the TR oneself, or its allies.
This is about as much I can suggest at this point, but if not all is possible, then for certain the absolute priority would be the nerf to the AP items.
Currently, sir, it seems that the AP cloak is gaining more importance rather than Sigil of the Divine. For instance players without the Sigil of the Divine, are not at much disadvantaged so long as they have the AP cloak, but not the other way around.