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TRs and balancing a look at the current state of TRs in PVP.
ltgamesttv
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
I expect I will get opposition from TRs who want do defend their class because it is fun to play the OP fotm class. These, however, are the facts as they stand about TRs in relation to PVP balance:
1) TRs get 100% critical chance during stealth. No other class gets 100% critical save CW's only during EoS which is brief and not easily timed (read takes skill). All other classes have to spec into critical strike for this effect.
2) Feats such as shadowy opportunity, Exposed weakness, Shadow of Demise, and Gutterborn either diminish the targets defense or ignore it completely with piercing damage. All other classes have to spec into armor penetration for this effect.
3) Feats like Knife's edge in combination with BB reduce all your cooldowns to zero so that you always have all of your encounters up immediately following a daily, which after the encounters are used you can use another daily immediately. All other classes have to spec into recovery for this effect.
4) TRs are able to use a daily that ignores all defense, deflect, and even tenacity in combination with 100% critical from stealth. The damage on this daily is through the roof. It is a one shot depending on your power (which doesn't need to be terribly high or it can be buffed by other feats in the TR feat trees). All armor and tenacity on any class then becomes paper. There is no way to mitigate this. No other class has a encounter or daily that can be compared to this ability. It is THE most OP ability in the game.
5) TRs cannot be seen unless they attack you first. Most TR attacks from stealth will be aimed at stunning the target so that while you can see them you will be stunned. If they attempt gloaming cut they will come in, GC and dodge roll away hitting you for 8-14k and using only one of their many escape tactics (they will have multiple rolls, itc, and stuns ready if you happen to hit them at that point). No other class has as many escape and cc resist tactics as the TR.
6) TR has very high deflect capabilities built in to the class. Many stuns simply are deflected without the need for ITC.
7) TR has one of, if not the, highest AP gain of any of the classes in the game, allowing them to get their one shot daily up very quickly, or if they are pressed by 2-3v1 they can use BB to instantly refill all their encounters and reset any loss of rotation.
8) Depending on their build or feats they can do very high end burst damage even with little gear because their feats give them all the offense they need without having to gear for it. Crits (auto from stealth), critical severity (Arterial Cut), armorpen (Shadowy Opportunity), power (Shadowborn), recovery (Shadowy Preparations, Knife's Edge) ... all these are simply handed to the rogue through feats.
This is the primary problem, TRs are just handed offensive stats hand over fist far beyond what their gear would allow.
Now there are several proposed fixes to this issue:
1) Make all damage subject to DR, remove piercing damage and make SE respect DR/Tenacity.
2) Remove automatic crits from stealth allowing burst damage to be percentage based. You may one shot, you may not, it would depend on the roll of the dice.
3) Decrease the number of escapes TRs have, multiple dodge rolls/ITC/stealth/invulnerability during dailies/stuns. This is the equivalent to having more Armor than tanks as it's better to be able to avoid damage than it is to tank it.
4) Decrease base damage of encounters/at-wills
Now these are possibilities. Of which I would say removing automatic crit would work. However removing all DR ignoring feats/piercing damage as well as making SE respect DR and tenacity would work as well. Arguments could be made for or against any of these. However, to balance PVP and make it interesting/challenging for all classes, one of these needs to be addressed if not multiple. I would be amenable to anything that would give TRs a proverbial ch!nk in their leather armor. As it stands, they have too much going for them.
I could post an entirely different discussion about Scoundrels, particularly WK scoundrels and their CC abilities but dealing with this issue takes precedence over all. I'm still open to different opinions/viewpoints but the fact stands TRs need balancing and all classes except those TRs who refuse to admit they are unbalanced agree on it.
Thanks for your time.
1) TRs get 100% critical chance during stealth. No other class gets 100% critical save CW's only during EoS which is brief and not easily timed (read takes skill). All other classes have to spec into critical strike for this effect.
2) Feats such as shadowy opportunity, Exposed weakness, Shadow of Demise, and Gutterborn either diminish the targets defense or ignore it completely with piercing damage. All other classes have to spec into armor penetration for this effect.
3) Feats like Knife's edge in combination with BB reduce all your cooldowns to zero so that you always have all of your encounters up immediately following a daily, which after the encounters are used you can use another daily immediately. All other classes have to spec into recovery for this effect.
4) TRs are able to use a daily that ignores all defense, deflect, and even tenacity in combination with 100% critical from stealth. The damage on this daily is through the roof. It is a one shot depending on your power (which doesn't need to be terribly high or it can be buffed by other feats in the TR feat trees). All armor and tenacity on any class then becomes paper. There is no way to mitigate this. No other class has a encounter or daily that can be compared to this ability. It is THE most OP ability in the game.
5) TRs cannot be seen unless they attack you first. Most TR attacks from stealth will be aimed at stunning the target so that while you can see them you will be stunned. If they attempt gloaming cut they will come in, GC and dodge roll away hitting you for 8-14k and using only one of their many escape tactics (they will have multiple rolls, itc, and stuns ready if you happen to hit them at that point). No other class has as many escape and cc resist tactics as the TR.
6) TR has very high deflect capabilities built in to the class. Many stuns simply are deflected without the need for ITC.
7) TR has one of, if not the, highest AP gain of any of the classes in the game, allowing them to get their one shot daily up very quickly, or if they are pressed by 2-3v1 they can use BB to instantly refill all their encounters and reset any loss of rotation.
8) Depending on their build or feats they can do very high end burst damage even with little gear because their feats give them all the offense they need without having to gear for it. Crits (auto from stealth), critical severity (Arterial Cut), armorpen (Shadowy Opportunity), power (Shadowborn), recovery (Shadowy Preparations, Knife's Edge) ... all these are simply handed to the rogue through feats.
This is the primary problem, TRs are just handed offensive stats hand over fist far beyond what their gear would allow.
Now there are several proposed fixes to this issue:
1) Make all damage subject to DR, remove piercing damage and make SE respect DR/Tenacity.
2) Remove automatic crits from stealth allowing burst damage to be percentage based. You may one shot, you may not, it would depend on the roll of the dice.
3) Decrease the number of escapes TRs have, multiple dodge rolls/ITC/stealth/invulnerability during dailies/stuns. This is the equivalent to having more Armor than tanks as it's better to be able to avoid damage than it is to tank it.
4) Decrease base damage of encounters/at-wills
Now these are possibilities. Of which I would say removing automatic crit would work. However removing all DR ignoring feats/piercing damage as well as making SE respect DR and tenacity would work as well. Arguments could be made for or against any of these. However, to balance PVP and make it interesting/challenging for all classes, one of these needs to be addressed if not multiple. I would be amenable to anything that would give TRs a proverbial ch!nk in their leather armor. As it stands, they have too much going for them.
I could post an entirely different discussion about Scoundrels, particularly WK scoundrels and their CC abilities but dealing with this issue takes precedence over all. I'm still open to different opinions/viewpoints but the fact stands TRs need balancing and all classes except those TRs who refuse to admit they are unbalanced agree on it.
Thanks for your time.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
Second is your goal pve or pvp? Because your crits/encounter/at will change would destroy tr in pve.
Still laughing about the AP gain comment. And the EotS one for that matter.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
TR has class feature that gives them +15% AP gain as well as they get +10% AP gain in combat advantage (stealth) from tier 1 heroic feat. That's quite a lot already.
those problems should be addressed.
-the 100% critical should either be changed to something like 25% bonus damage or given an ICD of at least 1 minute
-Critical severity bonus from feats should'nt exceed a P. Vorpal
-Piercing damage should not exist in this game
-TR got mobility , high deflect from dex and ITC, the 25% extra deflect severity has no reason to be given to them right now.
-Daze should be toned down to give opponents a chance to fight back
-at-wills should not deal more than 10k damage
Deflection severity
The fast Daily cycling you're seeing now has more to do with SE's AP refund and liberal application of AP granting artifacts.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
A well built CW has 90% crit chance with Nexus. No EotS needed.
Piercing damage, feat proccing damage, glyph damage - all these indirect dmg sources have to be gone (imho)
It's only Knife's Edge - and it's bugged. People already reported it before mod5 went live. Sadly Dev's don't give a ****.
The Dev's did the following:
"•Shocking Execution: No longer ignores Damage Immunity effects. It still ignores all sources of damage resistance and cannot be deflected."
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?773831-Rise-of-Tiamat-Preview-Patch-Notes-NW-35-20141001a-2
And then they did the rework two patches later:
•Master Infiltrator
•Shocking Execution: *REWORK*: If you strike a target below 20% HP this daily refunds 100% of the AP used to cast it. This effect can only be triggered once before the Daily will consume AP. Ranking this power up will increase that Health Threshold by 5% each rank.
•Shocking Execution: Damage increased by 240% but no longer scales with target health.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?790161-Rise-of-Tiamat-Preview-Patch-Notes-NW-35-20141104a-6
That's why it's so strong atm.
Thats subjective.
Yes. Still GC doesn't hit for 8-14k in the first place. These numbers appear when the target is at 50%. The lower HP the target has the higher GC hits.
Also if a TR hits you with GC and dodges away the 2 second stealth reveal still applies. About the CC-Immunity and Escape: afaik GWF has CC-Immunity and Escape when they hit Unstoppable. I don't count a daze or a stun or a freeze or a prone as CC-Immunity/Escape.
TR has 30% deflect chance. Many stuns simply are deflected with a 30% chance. A Scoundrel TR can get higher deflect chance (up to 50%) but I don't think we talk about these ones yet.
No, they have not. TR actually have the least highest AP gain of any classes in the game. The base AP gain of BiS is 7-10%. DC artifact and AP gain cloak or pots are not relevant (imho).
That build is impossible to make.
Yes, please.
100% is (imho) way too high. I wouldn't call it "auto-crit" but I agree with you on that one.
TRs don't have any stuns. They only have dazes. I also don't count dazes/stuns/freezes/prones as escape abilities. Anyways - I think max of 3 dodges would be enough for /every/ class. So I'm with you with that one - kinda.
That depends on the at-will and how it will synergize with other adjustments. A GC - for example - is very weak if it doesn't crit.
I really appreciate (:
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
Actually, it's impossible if not for the said artifacts. You'd know if you've actually played a TR in PvP.
The default/base AP gain for TRs - as in, no extra investment into AP-gain feats or buffs - is ABYSMAL. Especially nowadays, due to the 'stealth reveal' mechanics recently implemented, the number of attacks a TR can risk to attempt is now severely limited since anyone/anything he attacks half-heartedly will see him. Prior to this change I could simply throw around 3~4 Disheartening Strikes to all the targets in visible range, but nope, can't do this any more.
Hence, on average it's actually not very surprising to see a TR not having been able to reach 100% AP even 3~4 minutes into the game. This is how the AP gain is on 'default', and under normal circumstances this is what limits the superbly powerful performance of the TR dailies. It is very rare to use.
The artifacts are what makes spamming dailies possible. It is also behind the roll-eyes lameness that is 2~4 spell casters all activating their AoE dailies at the same time in the mid node when the fight starts. Sigil of the OP. It's also what makes the HR be able to open up the very first attack of the fight with a Disruptive Arrow before even earning that 25% AP required, as well as a ton of other easy-peasy freebie daily abuses that any class does.
The problems with people now all gaining full AP every 75 seconds, on top of freebie 100% AP charge every 120 seconds, and a plethora of more easy AP gain goodies -- it's a problem not exclusive to TRs. It's a seperate issue that must be discussed.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
then wait some time, if it isnt enough hit tr escape/defensive mechanisms - so they dont have a get out of jail free card if they bite more than they chew, and they have to be more careful choosing targets
they should reduce dueling powers of saboteur and executioner, those builds should be more for killing of enemy backline at mid instead of dueling(or contesting in case of saboteur), dueling should be left to gwfs and hrs, and, to a lesser extent - scoundrels
Why stop there? EVERY 'ignores defenses' mechanic should be either removed or changed, IMO.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
aye. piercing needs to burn in a ditch somewhere
impossible without pots which everyone can use. no form of gear, boons, or feats give us deflect severity (that 1 boon that gives 3% actually only gives .2% so it's practically nonexistant)
rogues slot tactics? most of us use the run speed or stealth features
Let's say that I hit a gf with dazing strike, but he was covering. so my unmitigated damage was 10k, but after passing trough defense, block and tenacity that is reduced to 2k (I'm just throwing random numbers btw)
then when SoD activates, it'll damage for 50% of that 2k, so 1k damage.
If that 1k went through all the damage mitigation once again,it would probably be too low.
That's in theory. But that's just SoD, Other piercing damage feats work differently.
Also, yeah, TR being one of the fastest AP gaining classes? That's major bull****, we're one of the slowest Ap generating classes, with feats and all. It's specific items that throw that balance to hell. But that's not only for TRs.
I agree with some of the other points though.
You don't get to dictate what role the TR can and can't play. Oh - and these changes would destroy PvE Rogues. So, no. Thanks anyway.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
You built a TR specifically focussed on high Recharge while gimping other stats and it STILL has worse AP generation than 3 other classes. Thanks - you just proved my point for me.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
If u run potb and tactics, ull have ur daily every 15sec....tell me how thats the worst AP generation.
This is so very untrue and false. Stop with the lies...
piercing could be used for classes that are below average in pvp while being strong in pve since it doesnt really affect pve, but is really strong in pvp, for example cw/sw, but it has to be done very carefully
I am sorry but this is just not true - I have played most classes and while I cannot really say about AP generating artefacts and how they effect a class's AP rate, TR in general have the worst AP generation overall. MY DC, CW, SW all have faster generation rates
Have a fun game
Interesting how people are calling out the TR as having too much for free when it's a class that gets:
-no additional RSI from ability scores
-no additional RI from ability scores
-no damage bonus from their primary ability score
-in the case of whisperknives, no damage mitigation abilities
People seem to be counting Sabs, Scos, Exes as interchangeable and sharing the same feats. This magical TR doesn't exist. I do agree that Sabs are doing far more damage than I expected them to do, and tweaks are always needed in games. Is this all really so out of the scope of the game, considering CWs still one rotation killing?
This is also true with DC and CW, the difference of course is stealth gives the TR ample time to regenerate stamina so the problem is amplified. I don't really see how people can even begin to debate class balance when so many base mechanics in PvP are just broken not to mention openly exploited ( Lookin at your Trapper HR )
A lot of points made are true but are they OP? I can't say for myself because if I could land a hit between a TR dodge, CC and damage them maybe it would be a fair trade. A lot more TRs would end up dead from bad judgement or slow reflexes if they couldn't spam dodge to win, that I know for sure.
It's more like every 20 seconds, and requires a solid target to stand still while you're spam-bashing it with DF all the while PotB is active.
In other words, it's PvE stuff.
I can show you 100% AP every 20 seconds without using any AP-boost artifacts if you agree to stand still while I slash you away with DF non-stop. Also, you must have enough HP to stay alive until I keep hitting DF on you. If you start move, if you retaliate, if you make me have to chase you, if you have any other frieds who interfere, then its foul --- is this how your picture of TR PvP works?
(ps) Also, if a TR generates AP that way, do you want to see how fast other classes can generate their AP by beating on an unretaliating target that stays still?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Open pvp today..
classes seemed pretty balanced to me.
Gf gwf cw sw tr dc all killed one another each class had success and failure.
Sure, I could do that as well if I play like a chump and throw around a lot of attacks everytime by turning myself into a walking sandbag and getting killed in the process. Reveal yourself from the start of the game and land a big LB and that'd give you a nice, hefty chunk, and then just go berserk by flinging and swinging stuff on the mid node against enemies already preoccupied with others and that usually gets your AP in around 2 mins or so. There is the fact that any other class would already have fired off 2~3 dailies by then, were they in the same situation, let's just ignore that.
Still, it is unfortunate the rest of us real TRs are by that time usually in the rear node, fighting at most one or two people.. and since the "reveal stealth" nerfs, we can't attack both enemies with impunity like we used to, so we're nowadays quite calm and patient to throw even one attack.
So yeah, when you don't play like a TR, you gain more AP than a real TR. Makes sense. Torlrorlrorlrolfollolorofl
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
-In mid node a tr gets his daily up rly fast, every 20-30 sec.
-Lashing blade can and does 1 shot even tanks, in 1 match i got 18 consecutive deaths only by that.
-After LB pop ITC go bk stealth and wait for CDs to recharge... i've seen this so many times is not even funny
-LB+SE for 2 targets and GG stealth is bk and job is done.