The change is good fo the game if bosses/dungeons give lots of rp stones. We should concentrate our efforts in get that change because this BtA change wont go back.
If you can farm enough rp in dungeons, everybody will accept this change as good for the game and bad for ad sellers
agree here, BoA dragon hoard enchantment will mean nada if we can get something from dungeons. Like in tiamat will drop a blood ruby or something (boa, bop, boe doesn't matter we get it by DOING CONTENT, preferably boe so we can sell it if need be)
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
i partially agree with you chem, and with some of the other posters, this game taking that route that probably will cause some of us old and some new players to quit.
and then i dont agree with some other things (chem you brag a bit imo), who do you think pay the AD for the CN equipment you were once so dire to get.
and where that AD coming from ? the casual players who dont want to spend so much time on the game , pay some $ to get that AD or save up those precious daily refined RAD.
and then there was 'the rise of the bots', because the game got popular, and those bots steal the revenue from cryptic/PWE.
and cryptic/PWE is all about RoI which become less and less (much like how it happen in game life) so they change the rules, and btw according to reddit discussion with Ryan it appear that cryptic/PWE is about the retention of players : http://www.reddit.com/r/Neverwinter/comments/2kphsw/hi_reddit_my_name_is_ryan_and_i_am_the_product/clniaq0
and cryptic/PWE are little cryptic for me to understand but instead doing something that will raise their revenues they present some more of that grind hell stuff which bots love so much and some players appreciate because who the hell have the time to play 20 hours a day for a month - so grind fest bring revenue just not to them.
and what happens next, gear make some hardcore players so powerful that they solo some of the dungeons but the loot dropped from those dungeons worth too little nowdays because 'why do i need the CN weapon set if i can get my own artifact weapon' and those dungeons become boring in a way (rewardless and rather easy).
and no new interesting content seems to appear, just more heroic encounters - minor,major,epic and we might see in the future the legendary heroic encounter (tiamat ?) and loot drops in a frustrating rate and then grind more to make
that loot powerful.
and i hope you see how the loop continue, which is sad in my opinion.
so bots thrive even more, hardcore players complain (usually) and casual players are either pay up to get some stuff (sometimes from the bots - and being ban for that) or dont really play so much.
and here is the conundrum - those changes seems to make less and less people to play but more bots to farm and lower paying player base and increased amount of bots means less revenue - who can solve this ?.
and maybe i am in the minority here but i dont plan to get those artifact weapons anytime soon.
and addressing that alt friendly point (not the alt invoking/leadership/bot/other friendly) because i think it should being addressed - i like to play all the classes but you cant play them well if you wont keep them up in shape/gear/stuff, so its not about alt friendly or not.
just stating some of my observation. (someone in LFG looked for 14K+ GS for PK, or some 22K CW in MC announce he will be taking the 9-12 section)
the community loves this game (everybody , including the bots) and they (not the bots in this case) suggesting so many proposal which some are worth to be taking into consideration by cryptic/PWE in my opinion.
all in all i still love the game and keep playing it even though i get frustrated sometimes but cryptic/PWE should do something about the current route it taking.
Hey man, i understand this point too.
When I bought my frist two CN weapon sets (over 1M AD each), I farmed that AD running T2 dungeons - back in the days before we had artifacts or companion bonuses or boons. Yes, we could do T2 dungeons in a reasonable time with 10-11k GS (shockingly, right?)
So then i paid a good amount of CN for my CN weapons - probably farmed by someone who was further ahead of the game than me.
Once I geared up i learned to run CN myself. Probably at 11-12k GS. Yes, we died _a lot_. Yes, it was difficult until we figured it out. Then we got a system and farmed our tails off.
Truly, however you guys feel about that, it was a lot of time and a lot of effort. It was not some easy "hold down the mouse button and kill things in mobs farm" thing.
I get there needs to be a grind thing. I know many people who quit in mod 2 because they had full rank 10s and orange artifacts. Were they, and possibly me, making too much AD at the time? Likely.
However, replacing it with the current system - cut your income stream say 90% and increase the AD required for BIS item by what? 25%? 50%?
We are talking about increasing the time requirements 10-20 times over. If it took 1000-1500 hours of game time to get Rank 9s/10s and legendary artifacts - maybe that's fine. Maybe it should be a little more. But it certainly shouldn't be 10000 hours.
For most of the days in 2014 i was just logging in invoking, sell some items (like the pocket pets i bought for around 80k and sold for few hundred thousand), do some leadership stuff.
With the AD i have now (without keeping into account all the stuff that is waiting to be sold) and the resonance stacks i allready bought i can get lots of artifact equipment pieces to legendary quite easily.
So for me this change isnt that bad at all, but if you look at it closely you will realize how redicolous the system was. Again I didnt pay real money - mostly just traded event items - logged in once a day for 20 minutes and I can get legendary equipment quite easily.
Is that how it should be? Well i dont really think so - legendary stuff shouldnt be so easy to achieve. With only 1 Million AD you could get a legendary artifact equipment piece (before patch notes). How redicolous is that? And at the same time people complain about that there is no endgame content (Hard goals like that are PART of having an endgame experience)
And all the people complaining: "OMG!!!!! How should i get my legendary weapon i would need to farm foundry for everrr!!! ZOMG!!111"
You know what? Then dont get a legendary weapon if it is not worth it for you. You all complain about the "developers" being greedy (allthough we dont know if that was their explicit choice) but i get the feeling that this angry people who have "gathered" here are the real greedy people. What is the problem with having an epic artifact equipment piece? Is it so humiliating for you?
And please dont tell me without a legendary weapon you cant suceed in PvP premades. Every rank 10 costs more AD than 1 legendary equipment piece (before patch notes)
I dont come here saying: "OMG!!! How should get my tenser's floating disk? its so epenzive!!!!! I would need to farm for ever!!!" Its upon you to decide if you want to do that. If that game has NOTHING ELSE FOR YOU TO OFFER THAN LEGENDARY EQUIPMENT - it has been said before - a gentleman would leave quietly...
OK come at me now i can take all of you with my legendary... oh wait still dont have that
LOL, i understand the point here, but i think the point isn't so much that it's not possible to do what you do, but playing the AH is not playing the game. We should have a way to get legendary stuff by playing the game, not necessarily playing the AH - something i feel induced to do because my income has been reduced to a trickle.
However, what they are doing here (it looks like) is creating acute pressure for short term gains at the expense of their long term investment. Which means if they adopt this strategy - they will lose.
Bingo. I actually love this game. The game play is awesome. The environments are cool, and I actually really think they did a great job with the D&D stories part.
But if they keep going down the road of a cheap iPhone grinder game, they're going to lose.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
Chem, I appreciate what you're pointing out. I really do, and you're right on most things. But don't play the money and ego cards. They'll only come back to haunt you in the end. Besides, just because you're a good theorycrafter and mage player doesn't automatically make you right in what you say, even though you are. So don't play that card.
Back OT:
I hadn't seen the BoA announcement before I read this thread. It's a double-edged sword here. Sure, it'll basically put the bots out of business, which I consider a good thing. We've all been depending on bots for far too long for my liking anyway. And nurmood makes a few good points. You should be working towards legendary, not buy your way to them. Getting legendary gear should be part of your end-game progression.
What's bothering me is what's going to happen to the droprate after this change is in effect. If the rates are returned to what they were in mod 1-2 I don't have that much of an objection to this idea. With drop rates like that farming is actually an option and it's up to the players to decide how much time they are willing to invest in it. Of course refinement stones should get an equal drop rate to enchantments to make them worth farming. So, if they bring a normal drop rate of both with this change and players don't have to depend on fey blessings and dragon hoard enchantments to farm for their artifact (gear) I'm good. I'm just slightly worried that the drop rates will remain as abysmal as they have been for the last year.
Of course, this change will further increase the gap between current elite PvPers and new players. But judging by the past, Cryptic doesn't seem to think that's much of an issue. Guess we'll have to see how that turns out.
Hey MN - you are probably right about my OP. I was very angry when writing it, so I might not have been using my best judgement.
Now outside of my NW life, i am starting a company that is a union of commercial strategy and technology. My business partner has 17 years strategy consulting experience and is a former professor at NYU Stern School of Business - which is why i feel i might have some judgement on the matter.
Now, the insight here is true. If RP was somewhat easier to get ourselves OR if the amount of RP required was reduced, then we wouldn't have a use for the botters.
Your downside is also true. It would make it more difficult for new players to catch up.
That said, really appreciate the comment. Some good thoughts here.
I think we can all agree on that. But what choice do they have if their intention is to make PvE as easy as possible?
I don't think they want to make PvE as easy as possible, quite honestly. And I think Taimat looks fairly difficult.
I think they want it to be accessible, so that a relatively new player can access the majority of the content relatively quickly. This way your new players and your hardcore players aren't intentionally separated (though GS elitism often takes care of that itself.)
Personally, I think there is tons of stuff for a new player to do. Four modules worth of dailies. ToD isn't that bad on one character (but torture on 7!). I really liked dread ring, honestly.
In addition there are lots of dungeons from launch. The T1 dungeons are well designed and enjoyable, the T2 dungeons offer great gear, and EDV offers good challenge, so plenty of things to do even at a relatively new stage.
That said, I would love to see some challenging, high-end, PvE content. Though that is for a different threat.
agree here, BoA dragon hoard enchantment will mean nada if we can get something from dungeons. Like in tiamat will drop a blood ruby or something (boa, bop, boe doesn't matter we get it by DOING CONTENT, preferably boe so we can sell it if need be)
I bought a belt about three weeks ago. (bought not received through play)
I am still refining it, even with many (i don't know how many but a lot) purchases of botted(?) peridots.
it bores me to tears to have to refine, i usually log out from boredom. My whole game time has become refining.
The news of this happening hit me yesterday as it did all of us and I really lost any motivation to play at all. Every single person in my guild who was on said they will sit on the fence and watch. it is Cryptics' choice which side of the fence they (and myself) will step down on.
At the time i was leveling my main hand from lv 58 to lv 60, the lesser resonance stones were very overpiced, so I was using peridots and minor resonance stones.
It took me HOURS of mindless clicking to level it the last two levels. I believe that's 9 stacks, or 900 prediots, or 540 clicks (at least), with a delay between them. In all honesty, my hand was sore the next day.
This is why i now only buy lesser resonance stones.
As you know I am also advocating for a better refining interface. Spending hours sifting items into your artifacts for one or two levels is NOT fun.
I also find mobs farm very very un fun as well..
I agree with you too - when i first heard it i lost motivation as well. Please note though, pandarius is reading this thread and will consider our opinions so if you have something constructive to say, please post and reply!
Playing AH is also bad because it's essentially all about players with lots of AD exploiting players that have either less AD, less market insight, or both. The bots actually act to reduce incentives for players to engage in such predatory behavior. They should focus on ways to reward players for playing the game as intended and expected, not give added incentives to unduly exploit other players.
I actually also agree. I'm playing the AH or lockboxes because i feel it's the only reasonable option to make AD at a decent rate. If I could make AD through content, i wouldn't put so much effort into playing in the economy.
Playing AH is difficult, requires a lot of discipline, activity, knowledge and market insight. Of course it is those who don't have them (majority of the player base) buying items they need to improve their character who lose in that system. Insightful comment.
Bingo. I actually love this game. The game play is awesome. The environments are cool, and I actually really think they did a great job with the D&D stories part.
But if they keep going down the road of a cheap iPhone grinder game, they're going to lose.
You guys are missing the point.
Bots are a problem, not a solution. If you have to rely on bots to get your gear, something is broken.
In a game without bots drop rates can be higher, RP cost can be lower, BoP can be relaxed.
But with bots, you cant do that. The AH will flooded with everything you need at cheap prices and all the players get BiS just for buying it all, and cheap.
We all suffer from the changes in the short term and it sucks, you got used to buy things at the AH house. But someone has to sell it for you. Who sells it for you? The guy who owns a bot army and uses them to farm 24/7. He'll get what yo need before you, no matter what the drop rates are. But if the drop rate is low, he'll make less money and that's discouraging for him. And discouraging him to the point he'll stop and move to another game is the long term goal.
+1 for the first part , but less drops will hurt players more than bots .
Binding rp drops to acount is good for the economy but will make the game implayable , since the majority of players can't get all that RP neded to upgrade all the new upcoming artefact gear .
we need a legit equal replacement to these bots ;
like they said above , make donjon bosses /chest drop valuable rp stones , and more everywhere ...etc (where bots can't bot ) .
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
As is pointed out by intelligent people already, NOBODY CARES. Paying customers will get their items, still. Teens don't pay, they exploit and act tough/cool about it and drive away potential new customers.
Besides, "I quit threads" camouflaged with mindnumbingly hypocritical, wall of texts are against the forum rules.
Phew...lot of armchair moderating, flaming, and other rule violations in this thread.
Okay, few points.
1. Threads or posts that allude to quitting are the same as posting that you quit. Refrain from posting such or your post is subject to moderation or removal as needed to bring your post into compliance.
2. Respect is not optional on this board--it is a requirement. While you may not agree with the point of a poster, it is never okay to disrespect that poster.
3. If you see a post violating RoC, use the reporting function--do not "armchair moderate". However, responding to a violating post is a violation in itself. Do not respond, THEN report, as to do so leaves you in potential violation of RoC yourself and possibly subject to action. Also, any post quoting a violating post will be removed, regardless of content, as quoting a violating post makes that post a violation as well. Report it and leave it to the moderation team to address.
Do not respond to or reply to this notice, but use the PM system to address any potential concerns.
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Once again I will state 100% agreement with the OP.
This is very presumptive of my time and how much i would like to spend on a game.
It becomes work when you have to grind 100+ hours for one item.
I don't like bots. I'm glad you're trying to get them out of the game. I support the efforts to remove any sort of way they can profit from scripting programs, then mass selling and depressing the prices of everything.
That said, the presence of bots masked a more serious problem. When the bots are removed that problem will rear its ugly head. The amount of refining points needed to upgrade an item to Legendary is ludicrous. The acquisition of the materials and the subsequent interminable clicking is absolutely no fun at all. I have spent hours and hours killing monsters with my Dragon Hoard enchantments in an attempt to acquire refining points. Even doing so, without buying RP off the auction house I wouldn't have even made a dent in refining one item to Legendary status. At this point I've reached the conclusion that my time is likely better spent elsewhere. I'm not planning to quit, but I just can't believe I would spend so much time on a game for so little payoff. In the future I likely won't bother with any artifact equipment. Especially if I'll need to farm every bit of RP myself. You're dangling the carrot way, way too far out in front for me to feel any sort of incentive to go after it.
I'm not wanting to complain or whine. I'm happy with the Neverwinter product. And as I said, I want bots gone. So here are some possible ways to fix this problem that would still accomplish the goals of not ticking off the customer base while getting rid of RP bots:
1) Make RP from dragon hoard enchantments account bound but reduce the quantity of RP needed for Legendary items. Significantly so.
2) Make RP from dragon hoard enchantments account bound but increase the drop rate of black opals and sapphires significantly.
3) Bots can't run dungeons. So give out refining points at the end of dungeons. Figure out how many dungeon runs you think someone should have to undertake before they have invested enough time and effort into the game to deserved a Legendary item, then award RP at a rate so that they will be able to accomplish that. If that means one Sapphire in the end chest per run, maybe two? Or five? Then so be it. There's a sweet spot in there somewhere where the player will feel like their goal is difficult but achievable and will increase their playing time to go after it. Dangle the carrot too far out in front, and they'll stop playing all together.
4) Price zen store RP at a reasonable rate. Refining an item to Legendary status using the zen store would cost approximately (95 blood rubies = 63333 zen $633. The vast majority of your player base will laugh and walk away from this sticker price. If that is the only real alternative to buying from bots, then people will leave.
I'm not against making dragon hoard enchantment drops bound like so many others. But doing so must be accompanied by some other change in the game to make the refining process in some way reasonable. It currently is not.
I am one of the most serious, most active players in your community.
Thank you,
Chem.
I agree with you completely. And you have my vote for this lets say "petition" and respect for words you sad.
PS on 18th not only mod 5 comes out. And it is funny how some of my guildmates are switching to other cryptic game on same engine just cause it is way more better game design.
PPS bots did saved this game mod 4 artifact weapons and ets. They eased the problems you made with Random drops ets. I spent bunch of money on this game. Had my small share ~ 50$ budget on games. I m owner of "dragonborn sales pack" and suffered from that scheme. I have to trust in your sales, zen and so on anymore. Bots were the only thing that kept this grind game in frames of reasonable play. I do hate bots. yet they saved you mod 4. But your intention to kill players is way beyond any passions, bots and money reasons. This my personal IMHO. Others have their own head to use.
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
I would say that only 0.5% or 1% of the total population in the game visit the forum, even when enchanted keys became BoA and the Cwards too, now it's the same situation as usual, some people will complain, some people will stay, some people will leave and some people will join the game, it's always the same again and again... Once they took a decision, they never went back so instead of complaining, people have to start working in suggestions and forward them to Akro and/or Panderus.
If I am unable to buy a random stack of peridots every week or so, off the meager amount of AD i can actually make in this game with my limited time, then I dont think I could ever get to legendary..
I spent a Month building up all my Refinement, everything I possibly could, All the AD I saved up and created by liquidating items I had , went to generating more and more Refinement items for my Amazing Warlock!
Double Refinement Point weekend arrive and I so happened to Open the CHest and get the Artifact Mainhand that I wanted! with a Months worth of Playing nearly All day farming nonstop Boring Dailies, Foundries, Dungeons etc. and was only able to accompish rank 50 on my Artifact weapon, Legendary on my Lantern (thanks to a lucky crit when feeding another Arti to it) and rank 76 on my Waters and Sigil of the controller.
DO you know how crushing it is, to find out that allllllllll that farming, and CLicking, and Crashing from teh clicking, and Time spent, only got me like a quarter of the way in my artifact weapon =(
Now I wont even be able to do that... I still have to keep farming Dragon Dailies, still completing Sharandar because its stupidly boring but I wont be able to progress at all for many months
Without being able to Buy random Refinement items to put into my artifact on a weekly basis (Again cus i seem to be terribly unlucky with drops....) then it really seems impossible for me to obtain.. And then that means Dominations will be even more pointless for me, because NOT ONLY will i not have the New Artifact Offhand, and Neck, and Belt, but I WILL NOT HAVE ANY OF THEM LEGENDARY !
Original Poster.. You assume the goal of an MMO actually is to have a long sustained game, but the problem is they are being pulled by someone else to increase profits.. They don't care if they Increase Profits, Shut her down within 4 years, and open up a new shop..
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited November 2014
I personally know for a fact, that making things BOA will not make bots go away.
It does however hurt the entire player base and money flow to the company.
Guess we have to let them draw their own statistics on this matter ye? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtfCRaNg5EU
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
+1 for the first part , but less drops will hurt players more than bots .
Binding rp drops to acount is good for the economy but will make the game implayable , since the majority of players can't get all that RP neded to upgrade all the new upcoming artefact gear .
we need a legit equal replacement to these bots ;
like they said above , make donjon bosses /chest drop valuable rp stones , and more everywhere ...etc (where bots can't bot ) .
The situation will hurt player more, I agree.
But bots need to be removed from this game. In the current state bots have a very big impact on the economy, lowering prices on the AH is just a "good side effect". When you buy something from a bot, what do you think he does with the AD? He goes and opens a website called "www.cheap-ad-for-neverwinter-buy-buy-buy.com" and sells it for real money. Then he goes farther and sells the details of the poor slobs from buy AD from him, to the highest bidder. This is worse than you think.
We didn't have such a big bot problem at lunch when well all played CN over and over. Its a different situation now.
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
edited November 2014
Oh, I see some people is missing something, when the first artifacts arrived the refining points were very expensive like 250k each pack but a lot of people still managed to upgrade them to legendary, so it is not like there will be not more RP in the AH, it's just going to be more expensive so if you have the AD you will be able to buy some packs whenever you want, you can also save for the 2x RP weekend.
Oh, I see some people is missing something, when the first artifacts arrived the refining points were very expensive like 250k each pack buta lot of people still managed to upgrade them to legendary, so it is not like there will be not more RP in the AH, it's just going to be more expensive so if you have the AD you will be able to buy some packs whenever you want, you can also save for the 2x RP weekend.
they used cheap rank 4 and rank 5
rank 4 from fey blessing. now BoA
rank 5 from a console hack, now closed
this will crush your average players chance at getting a legendary without paying hundreds of dollars
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited November 2014
Abbandon has some great points, as usual. Thank you for your thoughtful post.
I would LOVE getting RP from running dungeons, and think this is (in principle) a good idea.
Gerbil and demein - thank you Appreciated.
Lazalia - heard great things about your build, and I know that not enough people come to the forums. We can't fix that, but this is the best voice we have. It seems many people who are not posting are also infuriated, but writing on the forums opens you up to a huge amount of attacks (as we have seen here).
Anamalist - Yes man, it sucks. I think players like you are hurt even more than players like me, simply because you don't have the capital to invest and flip, and persumably don't have the gear/experience to farm effectively. I assume players like you are their target market, and here you are and noticing that a) your efforts didn't add up to much at all and b) those efforts are going to be curtailed.
I don't mind you getting upset about it. I would be too! It's good to hear a voice of someone who doesn't have a legendary and who hasn't played forever as players like you are not well represented on the forums. Thank you very much for posting and voting.
So far:
14% - like the change
6% - too casual to care
26% - don't like the change
54% - don't like the change and are considering quitting.
If something angers 80% of your player base AND induces 50% of your playerbase to quit - it is obviously a poor business decision. This is blowing up your house to get rid of a termite infestation. Sure, there are no more termites present, but there is also no more house.
Oh, I see some people is missing something, when the first artifacts arrived the refining points were very expensive like 250k each pack buta lot of people still managed to upgrade them to legendary, so it is not like there will be not more RP in the AH, it's just going to be more expensive so if you have the AD you will be able to buy some packs whenever you want, you can also save for the 2x RP weekend.
Yes laz, this is undenyable. I was there in mod 2 when artifacts came in, and I got mine to legendary relatively quickly. (I also bought up serenes and tranquils in mod 1 and 1/3 or 1/4 their market price). I think it was costing me around 5M an artifact.
The difference between then and now is twofold. First of all:
The RP bought through the bazaar or Zen shop is at least 6AD/RP. When artifacts came around it was closer to 1-1.5AD/RP.
Secondly:
When artifacts came around, CN was still farmible and you could have a decent income. The introduction of artifact weapons have crashed prices so much that now your profit per run or AD/hr is quartered (optimistically).
so if the RP will cost four times more and you are making four times less, it will take sixteen times longer.
Granted, this doesn't include people with RP saved up, or with large sums of AD saved up. Those people will obviously be fine no matter what, however, they are an extreme minority.
I would say that only 0.5% or 1% of the total population in the game visit the forum, even when enchanted keys became BoA and the Cwards too, now it's the same situation as usual, some people will complain, some people will stay, some people will leave and some people will join the game, it's always the same again and again... Once they took a decision, they never went back so instead of complaining, people have to start working in suggestions and forward them to Akro and/or Panderus.
I wouldnt say nothing changes. There have been times Cryptic has backed down. When the new refinement system was being changed, it was planned to have a direct AD cost with it in addition to the need for catalysts. There was an loud outcry and Cryptic relented, removing the direct AD cost. Cryptic has responded to the community, if it is loud enough, and if there is another viable option. There are many examples of this.
The problem with this topic, is currently the main outcry is about this one issue, the binding of farmable RP. It can only be seen as a cry for continued botting. Its not a cry that will be, or can be, accepted by Cryptic. It why topics like these feel a little disingenuous. We all knew the bots made things overly easy, we all knew it could never last, so when it suddenly stops, like we all knew it had to, now we get rage?
We are debating the wrong thing, its not about drops, or bots, its about what it takes to get an item to legendary. There is a clear divide between what some players feel is a fair time/effort/expense measurement to get there, and what Cryptic wants. The source of the argument and debate needs to be firmly centered on that, and that alone.
Because, honestly, this whole "if you do this one change i'm quitting" mindset isn't going to much traction. Botting needs to be stopped, perhaps this change will fix that, perhaps it wont. But at no point can anyone firmly say, botting is good for the game and needed, and expect to be taken seriously.
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arbitrarityMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 96Arc User
edited November 2014
What we need to understand as players is that PWE wants to monetize this game like a mobile game with infinite grind. The problems with this are severalfold, because Neverwinter is not essentially like one of those mobile games. However additionally, the devs fail to recognize that reasonable rewards for playing are critical to an game's longevity. In fact, the most popular games in today's mobile market primarily reward players for PLAYING, rather than buying.
So, here is what I suggest. Grant RP at a 1-2 ratio (1-3?) with XP, split among all equipped artifacts and enchantments that can receive RP (that is, not ready for upgrade or rank 10) Add appropriate XP rewards for completing Foundries, dungeons and skirmishes (probably some 10k xp for a T1 skirmish, x2.5 for dungeons, x2 for T2), based on their difficulty. Leave existing RP mechanics in place (maaaybe increase the RP gain for purple items). Offer RP gain boosters in the store as a cheaper alternative to Blood Rubies. Bam. Turning in dailies is like a Flawless Sapphire, a couple CN runs is worth a Blood Ruby, albeit split up greatly. Suddenly the massive AD sink has become a massive incentive to just play the game. And if you price RP right, you can still draw a lot of money out of those who need Orange NAO, while not frustrating your playerbase. Oh, and it reduces the amount of clicking to refine stuff. Always good.
Also, this lets maxed out players refine enchantments and so on with their spare XP, giving them some incentive to do content that gets around the RAD limit.
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
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agree here, BoA dragon hoard enchantment will mean nada if we can get something from dungeons. Like in tiamat will drop a blood ruby or something (boa, bop, boe doesn't matter we get it by DOING CONTENT, preferably boe so we can sell it if need be)
Hey man, i understand this point too.
When I bought my frist two CN weapon sets (over 1M AD each), I farmed that AD running T2 dungeons - back in the days before we had artifacts or companion bonuses or boons. Yes, we could do T2 dungeons in a reasonable time with 10-11k GS (shockingly, right?)
So then i paid a good amount of CN for my CN weapons - probably farmed by someone who was further ahead of the game than me.
Once I geared up i learned to run CN myself. Probably at 11-12k GS. Yes, we died _a lot_. Yes, it was difficult until we figured it out. Then we got a system and farmed our tails off.
Truly, however you guys feel about that, it was a lot of time and a lot of effort. It was not some easy "hold down the mouse button and kill things in mobs farm" thing.
I get there needs to be a grind thing. I know many people who quit in mod 2 because they had full rank 10s and orange artifacts. Were they, and possibly me, making too much AD at the time? Likely.
However, replacing it with the current system - cut your income stream say 90% and increase the AD required for BIS item by what? 25%? 50%?
We are talking about increasing the time requirements 10-20 times over. If it took 1000-1500 hours of game time to get Rank 9s/10s and legendary artifacts - maybe that's fine. Maybe it should be a little more. But it certainly shouldn't be 10000 hours.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
LOL, i understand the point here, but i think the point isn't so much that it's not possible to do what you do, but playing the AH is not playing the game. We should have a way to get legendary stuff by playing the game, not necessarily playing the AH - something i feel induced to do because my income has been reduced to a trickle.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Bingo. I actually love this game. The game play is awesome. The environments are cool, and I actually really think they did a great job with the D&D stories part.
But if they keep going down the road of a cheap iPhone grinder game, they're going to lose.
Hey MN - you are probably right about my OP. I was very angry when writing it, so I might not have been using my best judgement.
Now outside of my NW life, i am starting a company that is a union of commercial strategy and technology. My business partner has 17 years strategy consulting experience and is a former professor at NYU Stern School of Business - which is why i feel i might have some judgement on the matter.
Now, the insight here is true. If RP was somewhat easier to get ourselves OR if the amount of RP required was reduced, then we wouldn't have a use for the botters.
Your downside is also true. It would make it more difficult for new players to catch up.
That said, really appreciate the comment. Some good thoughts here.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I don't think they want to make PvE as easy as possible, quite honestly. And I think Taimat looks fairly difficult.
I think they want it to be accessible, so that a relatively new player can access the majority of the content relatively quickly. This way your new players and your hardcore players aren't intentionally separated (though GS elitism often takes care of that itself.)
Personally, I think there is tons of stuff for a new player to do. Four modules worth of dailies. ToD isn't that bad on one character (but torture on 7!). I really liked dread ring, honestly.
In addition there are lots of dungeons from launch. The T1 dungeons are well designed and enjoyable, the T2 dungeons offer great gear, and EDV offers good challenge, so plenty of things to do even at a relatively new stage.
That said, I would love to see some challenging, high-end, PvE content. Though that is for a different threat.
Forgive this off topic response,
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
+1!
/10 char!
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
At the time i was leveling my main hand from lv 58 to lv 60, the lesser resonance stones were very overpiced, so I was using peridots and minor resonance stones.
It took me HOURS of mindless clicking to level it the last two levels. I believe that's 9 stacks, or 900 prediots, or 540 clicks (at least), with a delay between them. In all honesty, my hand was sore the next day.
This is why i now only buy lesser resonance stones.
As you know I am also advocating for a better refining interface. Spending hours sifting items into your artifacts for one or two levels is NOT fun.
I also find mobs farm very very un fun as well..
I agree with you too - when i first heard it i lost motivation as well. Please note though, pandarius is reading this thread and will consider our opinions so if you have something constructive to say, please post and reply!
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I actually also agree. I'm playing the AH or lockboxes because i feel it's the only reasonable option to make AD at a decent rate. If I could make AD through content, i wouldn't put so much effort into playing in the economy.
Playing AH is difficult, requires a lot of discipline, activity, knowledge and market insight. Of course it is those who don't have them (majority of the player base) buying items they need to improve their character who lose in that system. Insightful comment.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Agree completely zerg!
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
+1 for the first part , but less drops will hurt players more than bots .
Binding rp drops to acount is good for the economy but will make the game implayable , since the majority of players can't get all that RP neded to upgrade all the new upcoming artefact gear .
we need a legit equal replacement to these bots ;
like they said above , make donjon bosses /chest drop valuable rp stones , and more everywhere ...etc (where bots can't bot ) .
If nobody cares, no one would be posting.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Hey, I had that coming! LOL.
Thanks SM - always love your posts.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Phew...lot of armchair moderating, flaming, and other rule violations in this thread.
Okay, few points.
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This is very presumptive of my time and how much i would like to spend on a game.
It becomes work when you have to grind 100+ hours for one item.
I don't like bots. I'm glad you're trying to get them out of the game. I support the efforts to remove any sort of way they can profit from scripting programs, then mass selling and depressing the prices of everything.
That said, the presence of bots masked a more serious problem. When the bots are removed that problem will rear its ugly head. The amount of refining points needed to upgrade an item to Legendary is ludicrous. The acquisition of the materials and the subsequent interminable clicking is absolutely no fun at all. I have spent hours and hours killing monsters with my Dragon Hoard enchantments in an attempt to acquire refining points. Even doing so, without buying RP off the auction house I wouldn't have even made a dent in refining one item to Legendary status. At this point I've reached the conclusion that my time is likely better spent elsewhere. I'm not planning to quit, but I just can't believe I would spend so much time on a game for so little payoff. In the future I likely won't bother with any artifact equipment. Especially if I'll need to farm every bit of RP myself. You're dangling the carrot way, way too far out in front for me to feel any sort of incentive to go after it.
I'm not wanting to complain or whine. I'm happy with the Neverwinter product. And as I said, I want bots gone. So here are some possible ways to fix this problem that would still accomplish the goals of not ticking off the customer base while getting rid of RP bots:
1) Make RP from dragon hoard enchantments account bound but reduce the quantity of RP needed for Legendary items. Significantly so.
2) Make RP from dragon hoard enchantments account bound but increase the drop rate of black opals and sapphires significantly.
3) Bots can't run dungeons. So give out refining points at the end of dungeons. Figure out how many dungeon runs you think someone should have to undertake before they have invested enough time and effort into the game to deserved a Legendary item, then award RP at a rate so that they will be able to accomplish that. If that means one Sapphire in the end chest per run, maybe two? Or five? Then so be it. There's a sweet spot in there somewhere where the player will feel like their goal is difficult but achievable and will increase their playing time to go after it. Dangle the carrot too far out in front, and they'll stop playing all together.
4) Price zen store RP at a reasonable rate. Refining an item to Legendary status using the zen store would cost approximately (95 blood rubies = 63333 zen
I'm not against making dragon hoard enchantment drops bound like so many others. But doing so must be accompanied by some other change in the game to make the refining process in some way reasonable. It currently is not.
I agree with you completely. And you have my vote for this lets say "petition" and respect for words you sad.
PS on 18th not only mod 5 comes out. And it is funny how some of my guildmates are switching to other cryptic game on same engine just cause it is way more better game design.
PPS bots did saved this game mod 4 artifact weapons and ets. They eased the problems you made with Random drops ets. I spent bunch of money on this game. Had my small share ~ 50$ budget on games. I m owner of "dragonborn sales pack" and suffered from that scheme. I have to trust in your sales, zen and so on anymore. Bots were the only thing that kept this grind game in frames of reasonable play. I do hate bots. yet they saved you mod 4. But your intention to kill players is way beyond any passions, bots and money reasons. This my personal IMHO. Others have their own head to use.
I would say that only 0.5% or 1% of the total population in the game visit the forum, even when enchanted keys became BoA and the Cwards too, now it's the same situation as usual, some people will complain, some people will stay, some people will leave and some people will join the game, it's always the same again and again... Once they took a decision, they never went back so instead of complaining, people have to start working in suggestions and forward them to Akro and/or Panderus.
If I am unable to buy a random stack of peridots every week or so, off the meager amount of AD i can actually make in this game with my limited time, then I dont think I could ever get to legendary..
I spent a Month building up all my Refinement, everything I possibly could, All the AD I saved up and created by liquidating items I had , went to generating more and more Refinement items for my Amazing Warlock!
Double Refinement Point weekend arrive and I so happened to Open the CHest and get the Artifact Mainhand that I wanted! with a Months worth of Playing nearly All day farming nonstop Boring Dailies, Foundries, Dungeons etc. and was only able to accompish rank 50 on my Artifact weapon, Legendary on my Lantern (thanks to a lucky crit when feeding another Arti to it) and rank 76 on my Waters and Sigil of the controller.
DO you know how crushing it is, to find out that allllllllll that farming, and CLicking, and Crashing from teh clicking, and Time spent, only got me like a quarter of the way in my artifact weapon =(
Now I wont even be able to do that... I still have to keep farming Dragon Dailies, still completing Sharandar because its stupidly boring but I wont be able to progress at all for many months
Without being able to Buy random Refinement items to put into my artifact on a weekly basis (Again cus i seem to be terribly unlucky with drops....) then it really seems impossible for me to obtain.. And then that means Dominations will be even more pointless for me, because NOT ONLY will i not have the New Artifact Offhand, and Neck, and Belt, but I WILL NOT HAVE ANY OF THEM LEGENDARY !
Original Poster.. You assume the goal of an MMO actually is to have a long sustained game, but the problem is they are being pulled by someone else to increase profits.. They don't care if they Increase Profits, Shut her down within 4 years, and open up a new shop..
It does however hurt the entire player base and money flow to the company.
Guess we have to let them draw their own statistics on this matter ye?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtfCRaNg5EU
The situation will hurt player more, I agree.
But bots need to be removed from this game. In the current state bots have a very big impact on the economy, lowering prices on the AH is just a "good side effect". When you buy something from a bot, what do you think he does with the AD? He goes and opens a website called "www.cheap-ad-for-neverwinter-buy-buy-buy.com" and sells it for real money. Then he goes farther and sells the details of the poor slobs from buy AD from him, to the highest bidder. This is worse than you think.
We didn't have such a big bot problem at lunch when well all played CN over and over. Its a different situation now.
they used cheap rank 4 and rank 5
rank 4 from fey blessing. now BoA
rank 5 from a console hack, now closed
this will crush your average players chance at getting a legendary without paying hundreds of dollars
I would LOVE getting RP from running dungeons, and think this is (in principle) a good idea.
Gerbil and demein - thank you
Lazalia - heard great things about your build, and I know that not enough people come to the forums. We can't fix that, but this is the best voice we have. It seems many people who are not posting are also infuriated, but writing on the forums opens you up to a huge amount of attacks (as we have seen here).
Anamalist - Yes man, it sucks. I think players like you are hurt even more than players like me, simply because you don't have the capital to invest and flip, and persumably don't have the gear/experience to farm effectively. I assume players like you are their target market, and here you are and noticing that a) your efforts didn't add up to much at all and b) those efforts are going to be curtailed.
I don't mind you getting upset about it. I would be too! It's good to hear a voice of someone who doesn't have a legendary and who hasn't played forever as players like you are not well represented on the forums. Thank you very much for posting and voting.
So far:
14% - like the change
6% - too casual to care
26% - don't like the change
54% - don't like the change and are considering quitting.
If something angers 80% of your player base AND induces 50% of your playerbase to quit - it is obviously a poor business decision. This is blowing up your house to get rid of a termite infestation. Sure, there are no more termites present, but there is also no more house.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
yeah like if it is every week-end , do they pay you ?
Yes laz, this is undenyable. I was there in mod 2 when artifacts came in, and I got mine to legendary relatively quickly. (I also bought up serenes and tranquils in mod 1 and 1/3 or 1/4 their market price). I think it was costing me around 5M an artifact.
The difference between then and now is twofold. First of all:
The RP bought through the bazaar or Zen shop is at least 6AD/RP. When artifacts came around it was closer to 1-1.5AD/RP.
Secondly:
When artifacts came around, CN was still farmible and you could have a decent income. The introduction of artifact weapons have crashed prices so much that now your profit per run or AD/hr is quartered (optimistically).
so if the RP will cost four times more and you are making four times less, it will take sixteen times longer.
Granted, this doesn't include people with RP saved up, or with large sums of AD saved up. Those people will obviously be fine no matter what, however, they are an extreme minority.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I wouldnt say nothing changes. There have been times Cryptic has backed down. When the new refinement system was being changed, it was planned to have a direct AD cost with it in addition to the need for catalysts. There was an loud outcry and Cryptic relented, removing the direct AD cost. Cryptic has responded to the community, if it is loud enough, and if there is another viable option. There are many examples of this.
The problem with this topic, is currently the main outcry is about this one issue, the binding of farmable RP. It can only be seen as a cry for continued botting. Its not a cry that will be, or can be, accepted by Cryptic. It why topics like these feel a little disingenuous. We all knew the bots made things overly easy, we all knew it could never last, so when it suddenly stops, like we all knew it had to, now we get rage?
We are debating the wrong thing, its not about drops, or bots, its about what it takes to get an item to legendary. There is a clear divide between what some players feel is a fair time/effort/expense measurement to get there, and what Cryptic wants. The source of the argument and debate needs to be firmly centered on that, and that alone.
Because, honestly, this whole "if you do this one change i'm quitting" mindset isn't going to much traction. Botting needs to be stopped, perhaps this change will fix that, perhaps it wont. But at no point can anyone firmly say, botting is good for the game and needed, and expect to be taken seriously.
So, here is what I suggest. Grant RP at a 1-2 ratio (1-3?) with XP, split among all equipped artifacts and enchantments that can receive RP (that is, not ready for upgrade or rank 10) Add appropriate XP rewards for completing Foundries, dungeons and skirmishes (probably some 10k xp for a T1 skirmish, x2.5 for dungeons, x2 for T2), based on their difficulty. Leave existing RP mechanics in place (maaaybe increase the RP gain for purple items). Offer RP gain boosters in the store as a cheaper alternative to Blood Rubies. Bam. Turning in dailies is like a Flawless Sapphire, a couple CN runs is worth a Blood Ruby, albeit split up greatly. Suddenly the massive AD sink has become a massive incentive to just play the game. And if you price RP right, you can still draw a lot of money out of those who need Orange NAO, while not frustrating your playerbase. Oh, and it reduces the amount of clicking to refine stuff. Always good.
Also, this lets maxed out players refine enchantments and so on with their spare XP, giving them some incentive to do content that gets around the RAD limit.
There will be another one soon, some people said in the beginning of December and most players should have the artifact items by then.