Fury - PVE - Dungeons - Some tips on DPS

rumrunner151

What do I know about DPSing as a Fury SW? Well here are a couple of bosses I killed today:

Grast the Gut-Cruncher - Damage: 1,018,417 - DPS: 28,850.34
Hrimnir: - Damage: 5,604,303 - DPS: 19,088.23
High Priestess Syndryth - Damage: 2,957,791 - DPS: 17,000.02

More importantly....
1) My Gear Score is only 13,451
2) I did not have my 4 piece bonus (Hellfire on Accursed Diabolist set) which will significantly raise my DPS.

So I think I know what I am doing. And I see lots of people doing it wrong. Here are my thoughts:
1) Fury SW is best as a Single Target class. While we have AOEs, they are not nearly as effective as our single target powers are. So rather than slowly AOE a group, quickly kill the individuals in the group. Plus you will do AOE damage to other cursed mobs and from Tyrannical Threat.
2) Our Capstone feat: Creeping Death is amazing. However, it only feeds off NECROTIC damage. So if you are using Fiery Bolt, Harrow Storm, Hellish Rebuke, etc...you are doing it wrong. These powers that I see sooo many SWs with are NOT necrotic. (Note: if you are doing dailies and want to use HS/FB to clear small groups of trivial mobs faster...so be it.)
3) Dreadtheft sucks in spite of being necrotic IMO. Its like a DOT that cripples the caster while it runs. However once you get your 4pc bonus from Accursed Diabolist it synergizes well with Dreadtheft. a) If you have to shift-move out of red, it cancels robbing your damage. b) You can't pop a health potion or do anything else until it ends. (Yes, if you target dies, you can do other things, but that is a bug and being fixed in Mod5)
4) Use Tyrannical Threat on cool down.
5) The DC Sigil is amazing and due to TT nerf in Mod5 will be even better.
6) Don't be afraid to melee with Hand of Blight.
7) Get your armor pen up to -24% Resistance ignored. (make sure you add the ArP value AND the % from INT together)
8) Crit is good. So is Crit Severity.
9) Time spent cursing is time that could have been spent DPSing, so avoid things that remove curses.

The bottom line is that you want to abuse Tyrannical threat to build a freight train of necrotic damage thereby causing the target to die from creeping death.

Dailies:
Tyrannical Threat / Irrelevant

Class:
No Pity, No Mercy / Prince of Hell if you need the ArP or any other you like if not. Note: Many people seem to like Flames of Empowerment, however, it is only good when your action points are full. If your action points are full, you should be casting Tyrannical Threat. Your action points should almost never be full. (Feel free to use it leveling, doing dailies, or dungeon trash.)

Encounters:
Warlock's Bargain / Cursed Bite / Killing Flames or Infernal Spheres (neither is necrotic, but killing flames hits big on low health mobs and Infernal Spheres does good damage while moving and applies curses to multiple targets which feeds Cursed Bite. I prefer Infernal Spheres, but it will pull mobs you were trying to bypass.
(If you have the AD 4pc Feel free to swap DreadTheft into the 3rd spot. Once Mod5 hits, it will be mandatory)
At Wills:
Hand of Blight / Dark Spiral Aura

I run the above all the time. Even on Dailies. Take a group, Bargain the tough mob, Curse 3 more, Hit Cursed Bite, if there is a 5th use Dark Spiral, then Hand of Blight anything left standing. Keep Infernal Spheres up to add damage and curse additional targets for curse bite. You will MOW threw anything if your gear is 1/2 decent.

Link to ideal build: http://nwcalc.com/sw?b=mnj:4tk9b:70ov,1r0iu2i:6uuz1:6u000:6u000&h=0&p=hlb

I enjoy questions and "educated" comments.

kolatmaster

Quick statement ... You mention "Dreadtheft not being good despite it being Necrotic damage...". While I agree it's not ama-za-zing simply on its own, it becomes ama-za-zing if you use Warlock's Bargain on the target just prior to Dreadtheft. It prevents the Curse from being consumed and it really triggers Accursed Diabolist's 4-set bonus spectacularly well. You'll love it when you finally get that set!

So if you haven't tried that out I highly recommend you do so!

truescrambles

The Bargain/Theft combo also gets Creeping Death going like there's no tomorrow if you throw a manual curse in the mix.

equ4lizer

kolatmaster wrote: »

Quick statement ... You mention "Dreadtheft not being good despite it being Necrotic damage...". While I agree it's not ama-za-zing simply on its own, it becomes ama-za-zing if you use Warlock's Bargain on the target just prior to Dreadtheft. It prevents the Curse from being consumed and it really triggers Accursed Diabolist's 4-set bonus spectacularly well. You'll love it when you finally get that set!

So if you haven't tried that out I highly recommend you do so!

Both of you are right. My exact thoughts hehehe

rumrunner151

Currently in addition to its limitations, DPS is lower with dreadtheft. I will of course test again with the 4pc bonus, but I doubt it will be better.

Remember, while dreadtheft is ticking, you can't do any other dps like hand of blight. Then it has a cooldown. That is a lot of lost DPS opportunity.


Once I get the 4 pc, I'll run it with and without and show the numbers. I think you will be surprised.

archsinner81

i don't really like DT, thou it seem to give good damage. Not sure if it help procing stuff with the dots like hits
Problems
1) We need to move about to avoid getting hit, Sprinting cancel it
2) CC will cancel it
3) Cant do anything else when it up.

Currently i'm testing out on single target last boss on LOL
Blades of Vanquished Armies/ Wraith's Shadow / Warlock's Bargain
100% nerco damage + 100% free time to dodge/ use at-will / Curse

rumrunner151

archsinner81 wrote: »

i don't really like DT, thou it seem to give good damage. Not sure if it help procing stuff with the dots like hits
Problems
1) We need to move about to avoid getting hit, Sprinting cancel it
2) CC will cancel it
3) Cant do anything else when it up.

Currently i'm testing out on single target last boss on LOL
Blades of Vanquished Armies/ Wraith's Shadow / Warlock's Bargain
100% nerco damage + 100% free time to dodge/ use at-will / Curse

Yeah I tried BoVE and WS but they were less DPS than CB & IS/KF. At lease at my gear level....YMMV.

leeksie

rumrunner151 wrote: »

Currently in addition to its limitations, DPS is lower with dreadtheft. I will of course test again with the 4pc bonus, but I doubt it will be better.

Remember, while dreadtheft is ticking, you can't do any other dps like hand of blight. Then it has a cooldown. That is a lot of lost DPS opportunity.


Once I get the 4 pc, I'll run it with and without and show the numbers. I think you will be surprised.

TL;DR - useful info in here, especially pre-Accursed set. Your opinion might shift a little once you have that set though... or you might be able to show some good alternatives once you conduct your tests.


Hi Rumrunner,

Some good general points there. I run a slightly different build but there are lots of similarities and for most of the same reasons that you have stated.

I'll be really interested to see the results of your tests! If there are viable alternatives to the 'Dreadtheft Combo' then that is very useful information for the community to know.


I just wanted to put a bit of extra info down about Dreadtheft though. It's a clunky skill and I can appreciate why you might not like it, but I think that this post doesn't quite do it justice (whether that was your intent or not).

For my opinion, Dreadtheft is a high risk, but high reward skill that by itself isn't all that crash hot (for the reasons you have mentioned: reduced speed, no dodge, can't use other abilities whilst casting). However, once you get the hang of it and start to use the synergies of the other skills it really ramps up the damage, especially for a Fury build. Once you also have the Accursed Diabloist set to add to the mix... its a very potent central skill indeed.


For those who don't know... in it's simplest form, that Dreadtheft Combo is: Warlocks Curse (Tab), Warlocks Bargin, Dreadtheft.

However in a Dungeon I'll often: Warlocks Curse, Wraiths Shadow, Dark Spiral, Warlocks Bargin, Dreadtheft
if I'm playing ranged support, or
Warlocks Curse, Dark Spiral, Blades of the Vanquished Armies, Warlocks Bargin, Dreadtheft
if I'm up close and personal.

I'm also using Hand of Blight at both ranges. This is for Dungeons rather than Dailies where mobs are tougher and our single target DPS can really be brought to bear.

The reason for all those skills and in that order is:

• Everything is Necrotic Damage, so it's picked up by Creeping Death which basically doubles the damage over 6 seconds.
• Warlocks Curse applies the curse that many skills/feats synergise off... especially Creeping Death.
• Wraiths Shadow is a Necrotic DoT that also debuffs
• Blades of the Vanquished is a multi-hitting (as in procs many times) necrotic damage AoE
• Dark Spiral (if you have a few charges) is a burst necrotic that can crit hard
• Warlocks Bargin is a necrotic DoT that also locks in the Warlocks Curse so it won't be consumed by Dreadtheft
• Dreadtheft then hits 24 times over 6 seconds and hits everything in a line. As Kolatmaster mentioned, it builds up to 5 stacks by consuming curses, but WB prevents that from happening so it gets up to 5 from a single target.

The other thing though is that Dreadtheft is able to hit multiple targets, making it an 'incidental' AoE in normal circumstances and quite simply a tool of obliteration when using Tyrannical Threat on multiple cursed targets. With all the DPS you are putting out, you will draw aggro but with a little positioning whilst using Dreadtheft you can use that to advantage and be hitting multiple targets whilst keeping their attention. A CW using Singularity works really well with this too.

Things get a whole lot better once you pick up the AD set though...
Once you get the Accursed Diabloist set, you can be getting 20-24 ticks from DT on each of a big stack of mobs. Each tick adds a proc of Hellfire from the set. That equates to an extra 40-48k on each mob (end-game mobs), or even more if they are debuffed. If you are also using the Blades of the Vanquished there can be an extra 10-15 procs there as well.

Over the next 6 seconds things will continue to melt whilst you either keep laying on the pain with Hand of Blight, other encounters that have recharged, reposition, or slow walk away. I like to call it the Kenshiro Effect (from Fist of the North Star - "That's right... in fact... You're already Dead!") and I'm looking forward to being able to do something similar with my TR in the next module with their new 6-seconds of echoed damage feats.


Your other points are pretty sound (especially around TT and the DC artifact) and I'd like to chuck a couple more suggestions in to keep the variety going:

• Using WC and then hitting that target with a Fiery Bolt will cause the AoE to do 100% of the damage so its great for clearing trash when running your Dailies (not so great for Dungeons but still viable). Just be careful to hit the right guy, or apply your curse to 2/3 before using the Fiery Bolt to give you a better chance in a group of hitting a cursed target.
• You should always have your WC on whatever you are currently attacking. Always.
• Tyrannical Threat is simply without equal for AoE DPS, especially where there are a couple of Elite mobs or a Boss and lots of adds. On a solitary target though it's basically a glorified WC, so use Brood of Hadar (on a cursed target since its Necrotic damage) for more single target DPS. End Game examples include Lostmauth, the Dragonsouls, some of the HE dragons and Garakas once the drakes are down.

Thanks again for putting these points down Rumrunner. Hopefully you'll get some more good feedback, discussion and ideas from the others This open exchange of ideas, critiques and suggestions is the best way for us all to learn, explore, experiment and find an effective playstyle that we can also enjoy!

Looking forward to seeing the results of your tests, especially around Sustained vs Burst DPS.

inthefade462

When you are gearing up GS wise AD set really adds a ton of DPS, 20-40% of your dmg can come from the set. At the DPS you listed in your post it looks like AD might help you out. which, no offense, looks about right for your GS. DPS from a specific encounter especially with TT running is going to be higher than your avg over the entire dungeon. in a few k GS you will be hitting 30-35k DPS averaged over the course of the entire run not just 1 particular fight.

I say might because i'm not sure how much AD set will help you out since the majority of AD set dmg comes from using Dread Theft and hitting every single thing 24x. I can see how it can be difficult to get used to using DT but once you understand how it works and how/what to aim at then you will hit everything with it does a ton of dmg on it's own, and add tons of stacks of hellfire. That's how it deals so much of your damage.

But the thing about AD set is, the damage does not scale, and you get to a point where it adds less and less dmg overall. Partially because 2k per stack is the cap for damage, and partly because things begin to live significantly less than 6s. to a lesser extent creeping death suffers the same fate.

For me it is 11% of my total DPS in add heavy dungeons. Thats a 12% dps increase, slightly better than Valiant Warrior t1 GF set (10%), significantly less than HV or HP (30% maximum, realistically about 20-22% depending on ability selection). It's actually a somewhat weak set compared to other classes, but it's the best we got for trash clearing.

In dungeons with single target boss fights (mc, vt, lol) it does even less of my total dmg, because i don't even wear it during the boss fight, which is a significant portion of the total hp of the dungeon itself. (I wear MC Set which is totally probably broken as @#%! but dev's haven't said anything even after repeatedly telling them it's op)

Here's a graph of a ToS run from mimic, to give you an idea of what the AD set looks like at higher damage levels. One thing to note is I didn't use TT at all during the boss fight, as we had done the run so a TR could test his sustained DPS against the boss so I used Gates of Hell instead so the boss would live longer. TT would normally make up a slightly higher % of the overall dmg.



edit: if you can't read it, from top to bottom its DT, TT, Fiery Bolt, Hell Fire, WB, Creeping Death, Executioner's Gift, DSA, Gates, HoB Melee, HoB Ranged.

rumrunner151

So I got my 4-Piece, and things got interesting.
Essentially in my testing on combat dummies, DT really pumps Hellfire, but sacrifices TT and CD netting similar results. Whereas without DT, you have more time for HoB which re-fills your AP faster so you can TT more often which really pumps TT and CD damage.
The net result is pretty even. (see numbers below)
Again this is combat dummies and my Gear Score Actually Dropped a couple hundred points, so YMMV. ( I was wearing the draconic set)

Now for the really bad news...

Rise of Tiamat Preview Patch Notes NW.35.20141001a.2
Scourge Warlock:
Tyrannical Threat: You can no longer incorrectly generate AP while Tyrannical Threat is affecting you.

I have also tested on the Preview Server and unfortunately this nerf really screws you when not using DT. My DPS with DT went up slightly to 18k, but without dropped to 10k.

Of note...I tested several combinations including BoVE, Wraiths Shadow, Infernal Spheres, Fiery Bolt, etc. Best sustained DPS on Preview Server is WB, CB, DT.

Data on live w/ 4pc AD:
With DT: (DPS)
All: 16,438.27
Hellfire: 5,991.77
Tyranical Threat: 2,848.79
Dreadtheft: 2,572.90
Creeping Death: 1,955.72
Warlock's Bargain: 1,201.20
Hand of Blight Melee: 920.95
Curse Bite: 415.62
Hand of Blight Ranged: 384.53

Without DT: (DPS)
All: 16,538.68
Tyranical Threat: 5,302.40
Creeping Death: 3,485.89
Hand of Blight Melee: 2,547.79
Hellfire: 1,769.93
Warlock's Bargain: 1,657.62
Curse Bite: 933.76
Infernal Spheres: 377.54
Lesser Curse: 256.40

PS - Updating OP

sexwax45

Dread Theft may seem clunky but once you get used to DT you can really avoid anything just by walking out of it, there is really no need to sprint unless your late or mid cast on another power. At first it does seem to immobilize you but once you've used it for awhile it can be used effectively while still being able to avoid damage, just keep walking.

Now lets talk about Flames of Empowerment if you have it feated it will grant you an extra 17% damage increase while at full AP. As you GS increases the mobs will die faster and faster, adversely affecting the amount of damage TT can do if the mobs die before TT is finished. Not only can you optimize TT by using it during big pulls or when adds spawn during a boss fight, but with FoE you won't be loosing DPS while waiting for the perfect moment to maximize the damage you get from TT. Plus what other options are available you don't need the ArP at high GS lvls and no other class feats really do damage.

lazaroth666

Any of you guys have tested full G.Tenebrous + Terror in the preview server? I find radiants+vorpal doing almost equal dmg than terror+tene but it would be nice if someone else can test, if you want to do it let me know your @handle and I will send you the items.

equ4lizer

lazaroth666 wrote: »

Any of you guys have tested full G.Tenebrous + Terror in the preview server? I find radiants+vorpal doing almost equal dmg than terror+tene but it would be nice if someone else can test, if you want to do it let me know your @handle and I will send you the items.

I could help you test. Mine handle is @equ4lizer

lazaroth666

equ4lizer wrote: »

I could help you test. Mine handle is @equ4lizer

Thank you, the items have been sent.

equ4lizer

lazaroth666 wrote: »

Thank you, the items have been sent.

I had just finished testing, it seems like tenebrous gives slightly more burst damage.
Like around 50k more damage on terror + tenebrous.

You need to gauge if it's worth it or not, does not seem like a big difference to me though.
Remember you'll be offsetting your attack/healing, and tenebrous has a cooldown of 6 seconds ?

equ4lizer

I just retested again, and I'm still getting the same results. I might use terror + tenebrous I guess,
if it's not good enough I'll just switch back.

The reason for this was because creeping death synergies with terror / tenebrous in the 'Preview Server,
other than that.

The rest of the damage source works just the same way as in the 'Live' server.

lazaroth666

equ4lizer wrote: »

I had just finished testing, it seems like tenebrous gives slightly more burst damage.
Like around 50k more damage on terror + tenebrous.

You need to gauge if it's worth it or not, does not seem like a big difference to me though.
Remember you'll be offsetting your attack/healing, and tenebrous has a cooldown of 6 seconds ?

Considering that we just need a few secs in order to clear any number of foes, using Tenebrous might be a viable option since it will proc in every fight but isn't good for sustained DPS where +Power would bring us more benefit. I was checking in my alt with only r7, 7x rad = 1295 Power/166 = 7.8% dmg while 7 G.Tene did 3% of the total damage and if we add this same amount to Creeping Death we might say that is an extra 3%, so that's why there's not really much difference but G.Tene is already maxed, we can still increase rad to r10 and the difference would be much more noticeable. GS doesn't really matter and yes, it's only 6 secs CD. A test in a dungeon run would give us interesting numbers for sure.

kolatmaster

Definitely interested in your findings!

equ4lizer

lazaroth666 wrote: »

Considering that we just need a few secs in order to clear any number of foes, using Tenebrous might be a viable option since it will proc in every fight but isn't good for sustained DPS where +Power would bring us more benefit. I was checking in my alt with only r7, 7x rad = 1295 Power/166 = 7.8% dmg while 7 G.Tene did 3% of the total damage and if we add this same amount to Creeping Death we might say that is an extra 3%, so that's why there's not really much difference but G.Tene is already maxed, we can still increase rad to r10 and the difference would be much more noticeable. GS doesn't really matter and yes, it's only 6 secs CD. A test in a dungeon run would give us interesting numbers for sure.

You are probably right.
I'm not sure if I have time to test that on a skirmish like kessell's retreat, we'll probably need the same party members for me to find out if the damage can be sustained.

rotters

I tried the rotation suggested of WB, CB, DT. really couldnt get on with it. My usual rotation of Harrow, WB, DT. works so much better for me. the prone effect on harrow is a nice get out of jail. my rotation post TT recalculation gives me about 8 million DPS per elol run, but the other rotation only gave me 6 million. tried with the same group.

horses for courses I suppose.

GS 16.2 in AD.

leandreav1

You'd get more bang out of your buck with Firey Bolt, even it being fire damage. Things die too fast to rely on an extremely slow cast that ticks away and relies on the mobs staying clumped and your anchor not dying.

rotters

tried it harrow seems to give me better AP gain which means more TT's. seem to have found my rotation.