PVP is out of control- Please introduce average team score into party finder for pvp.

shajibsiddiqui1

Problem-
As pvp stands now, it is not surprising to enter a fight against an enemy team with around double your teams gear score. This massive gear imbalance in pvp is allowing overgeared players to 1-2shot weaker players and win the match. The thing i dont understand about the group finder is why is it grouping people in a way where one team is guranteed a win and the other team has absolutely no chance whatsoever. Infact there is a higher chance of getting an epic item from packs then the chance of actually having the chance to win the match. In such matches where the gear score difference is so overwhelming, any team strategy becomes redundant and the match simply becomes a waiting game, where the overgeared team waits to hit 1k and the loosing team waits at the campfire. The fun in competition gets sucked out and the loosing side simply becomes sheep to be slaughtered.

Solution-

My suggestion is to adjust the group finder so that it actuallys measures the average team gear score of the two teams selected to fight. Take for example, 10 people qued up for domination. From the 10 people, 3 people are overgeared, 5 people with an average gear score and 2 people with below average gear score. What the group finder will do is make sure that the 3 overgeared players will not be put on the same side. If 2 overgeared players are on the same side, then they will be partnered with below average gear score and the other side will have at least 1 guy with that gear score. That way, the average gear score of the party is about the same, and it will be a good fight.

This is applicable for both pugs and premade party. For example, if you got a premade party qued up, the group finder will calculate the average gear score of your team then find people to match the average team gear score.

Criticism-

You may say that restricting pvp based on average team gear score will cause much longer waiting times. However that is not the case for all situations. Often times, the problem starts when the group finder lumps up multiple overgeared pug players into the same party, leaving the other side completely helpless. That situation could have been resolved by simply adjusting the positioning of the overgeared players.

You may also think that this is simillar to the gear score required bracket of dungeons. However, that is not the case. The suggestion is not implementing brackets for individual queing, its simply an average team score measurement built in the group finder, so that it does not result in massive group imbalance. What is the point of entering the match when one side is already guranteed victory?



I applaud the good work that have already been done so far the neverwinter team and look forward to future improvements. I simply hope that pvp will be more fun and everybody can enjoy it. Do leave your suggestions on how gear imbalance in pvp can be resolved. Have a nice day.

rashylewizz

I think including gearscore is a good idea, but then you will get people slotting/unslotting enchants, switching gear, potting up once they get in the match etc. Also, keep in mind perfect weapon and armor enchants as well as tenacity are not included in gear score

If there is a method to seamlessly police and balance that, I think it could lead to more balanced matches.

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vulpixtamer

If anyone even cares they really need fix issues with pvp, cause where it stands now, games pvp system sucks , used to be really good not anymore.

anatas07

Good idea !

I cried it loud for about 4-5 months now. When pigs will fly !

You know why ? A level 60 with 7k gs after getting his <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> kicked like 20-30 times will want items - good ones - NOW ! Well this "NOW" is hard to achieve with no real money spent ... Got the picture ?

crimpatul

Yeah, I prefer long queue times rather than unbalanced pvp.

I said this a lot of times and I will say it. Some people of the forum try to ban this POV, but they will not shut up us.

Please, fix matchmaking.

ironzerg79

There already is a system in place. However, there's not enough people who actually queue up for Domination, hence why you're seeing the mismatches. I can guarantee you if they had a true "level playing field", you'd be waiting the better part of an hour, if not more for matches. When they first started testing their ELO system, this is exactly what happened, which is why it was dialed back.

What you're witnessing now is the collapse of a PvP system that favors gear, certain classes, exploiting broken skills and flat out cheating. It's not fun for the average player, hence the average player avoids it like the plague. You combine that with an absolutely toxic PvP community, and it's no surprise Domination PvP is a complete failure in Neverwinter.

The Devs also know that the amount of work required to rebuild the system is no where near worth the return on the time invested. Hence they continue to focus on PvE content, while tossing occasional bandaids onto PvP...most of which tend to make things worse than better.

EDIT: Reference here: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?682991-Scoreboard-Rankings&p=8127521&viewfull=1#post8127521

1. Why do matches sometimes seem so lopsided?
This is a hard question to answer, for several reasons. There are a lot of factors that determine match quality, and the system attempts to weigh all of them and give you the best possible match without waiting forever, which causes you to sometimes be placed in a suboptimal match rather than waiting indefinitely for a perfect match. We have several dials we can turn up and down to attempt to adjust matchmaking, but all of these things carry some degree of risk when we adjust them so we try to tune them little by litte. However we are watching matchmaking quality and are actively trying to weigh that against how long it takes to get and play a match.

shajibsiddiqui1

The claim that not enough people are queing for dominination is not really correct. This is because if you notice the way the group finder selects people and arranges them, many times you will notice that only one side has all the overgeared players, while the other side has only average or below average geared players. It is important to note that all of them has joined the party que finder randomly and it was not a premade party. For instance 2 overgeared players qued up. The match could have been much more fun and tactical if the group finder placed one of these players on each side, where both side have simillar oppurtunity for victory. From the overgeared players prespective, is it even fun to go around rampaging through domination or is a good fight prefered where both your skills and your gears are put to the test.

As for player waiting time increasing, what is really the point of starting the match when one side is guranteed to loose even before the gates come down and the combat begins? If the point is just to get 4 matches out of the way to get daily, where you simply move around the campfire and wait for the match to be over, something is certainly wrong.

From the constant efforts made by the neverwinter team to make pvp more balanced, there is still hope for pvp to be fun one day. I certainly hope that gear imbalance gets taken into account together with class imbalance when discussing pvp.

hercules125

Not a pvp player in this game, although I have competed in other games. The best pvp, hands down, was in GW 1. There was no uber gear - it all came down to best build and best team make up.

The ultimate solution would be to normalize gear scores for each class once the players enter a pvp zone, and let the highly skilled players win instead of the best geared. Take gear out of the equation completely.

asterotg

The solution atm, would be, to stop premade ques. This way the PvP players would be seperated and play against each other and not against PuGs.

The really broken ELO feat is, to que premade against premade. Today I 'joined' a spanish 'premade'. 4 ppl 6-11k GS. The enemy team was a PvP premade 18k+ perf. all pots available. They should either disable this feat, respect GS or ask PuG players, if they want to join a premade.

Atm you can be 'lucky' and join the BIS team, stomping the 6k+ players or unlucky and join the 6k+ oneshot team and play happy hunting 5v1 (five enemys hunting you, while your team respawns). In 1 of 10 matches you will get real PvP premades on each side and a decent fight. In 1 of 20 matches I joined a 5-10k GS group against another 5-10k GS group and feel bad for killing 2 or 3 of them alone.

Funny thing, even when you can win a 1v3 against the enemy team, you can still lose, bc. you teammates dont cap points.

grac3n77

Just make a room for pvp like dota, gunbound, rakion etc etc... don't need to put gear score you have to remember those name of the people who is strong and ban the players whom you think its not worth for your own standard. its up to you if you want to challenge them or not. At lease no one forcing you to play with the hard core player.

pando83

There's obviously something more than just the system forming teams with few available players.
Cause, for example, i was doing daily PvP with my HR scrub and DC scrub (low GS) to train/ build some gear.
It happens, at first, to get games with people around your gear. Or mixed games where there are 1 or 2 geared players in one of the teams. But more often than not, it happens to get 1 group a lot less geared, and 1 group much more geared. In one game my team was formed by 8-9-11k players and the enemy team got 3x 20k players w legendaries.

This can't be explained by "oh well, there are few players so...", cause if that was the case, the matchmaking would spread the strong ones. Let's say you have 10 players: 8k,8k,9k,10k,11k,14k,17k,18k,19k,20k. The 18-20k ones with legendaries.
Normally, assuming GS is in some way also related to your ranking (a 18-20k player w legendaries will hardly be a weak PvPer. It happens, but very rare and if it's a PvE toon), you'd have

8k,9k,11k,18k,20k
vs
8k,10k,14k,17k,19k

Something like that.

Instead, you often see this situation:

8k,8k,9k,10k,14k
vs
10k,17k,18k,19k,20k

or

8k,8k,9k,14k,17k
vs
10k,11k,18k,19k,20k

Which is kind of ridiculous.

Only explanation is, people grouping together+ class composition mess up the matchmaking. So if you basically have the 18-19-20k guys grouping together, the matchmaking balances the remeining solo queuers and the final result is a hugely unbalanced game with all the geared ones in one team. Also, you sometimes end up with 2 DCs in one team, and the enemy team filled with CWs and warlocks. Which is equally <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.

Either way, there's something that the devs did not consider.

I'd start forcing solo queue for pug PvP and allowing queues for 3-4-5 men groups separately. And include GS to some extent into the mix. If 2 20kers are queuing together, the matchmaking should wait for a comparable team. Longer wait if you go in with a mate and you're both very geared.
Also, include the d,mn weapon and armor enchants in gear score. Cause guys with perfects at 18k GS are NOT the same as 18kers with lessers or normals.

PvP matchmaking is messed up and it's not cause there are few players. There are other factors that contribute way more to the current situation.

nazghul22

shajibsiddiqui1 wrote: »

there is a higher chance of getting an epic item from packs then the chance of actually having the chance to win the match.

Last week among a dozen of 1000-0 and as many 0-1000, I had a 1000-900. It was fun to watch the two teams trying to remember how to actually fight, hold a b2, contest a b3, use a rotation.

pando83

Lol. That's true.
But basic stratgy is not a problem. I find it harder when you get used to loopsided games and then you get a balanced game with bis people all of a sudden, where mistakes are heavily punished and you've to remember how to react quickly and fight at 100% against a skilled and geared opponent.

I get here and there, however, games where it seems to be over at start and then with strategy and skill my team manage to revert the score and win. Or the enemies manage to do the same. Or a less geared team manage to win a match by skill and teamwork.

But these are quite rare. Quite rewarding too.

ironzerg79

Slice it however you want, guys...any way you want to count it up, the final conclusion is still hardly anyone queues for PvP, and the people who regularly do (and are geared for it) do it in teams.

Whether you have a high GS or not, soloing queuing is asking to be tossed into a meat grinder, simply because there's not a large enough base of people regularly queuing up for PvP.

Nothing being proposed in this thread with fix a single thing.

The root cause is the PvP game itself. Make that fun (and competitive) and you'll get people back in the queues.

pando83

Stop premades from pugstomping and improve balance in pvp and more people will play it. No player wants to get brutalized by a bunch of legendary guys grouping together with also usually broken enchants and builds.

There should be at least 1 normal queue working like the current one (premades and soloers mixed), and 1 queue where you're forced to solo queue. Then we see how it goes. My guess: the second queue would be far more balanced and fun.

luxark

rashylewizz wrote: »

I think including gearscore is a good idea, but then you will get people slotting/unslotting enchants, switching gear, potting up once they get in the match etc. Also, keep in mind perfect weapon and armor enchants as well as tenacity are not included in gear score

If there is a method to seamlessly police and balance that, I think it could lead to more balanced matches.

The gear you wear could just get locked as soon as you enter. Or a "PvP-Gear-Tab" in your inventory which you can only chance if you are not in a pvp zone. Would also make it a lot easier to actually do pvp, since you do not need to change all your gear all the time if it gets automatically used for calculations in PvP-Situations plus less space in your inventory needed.

magiquepurse

luxark wrote: »

The gear you wear could just get locked as soon as you enter. Or a "PvP-Gear-Tab" in your inventory which you can only chance if you are not in a pvp zone. Would also make it a lot easier to actually do pvp, since you do not need to change all your gear all the time if it gets automatically used for calculations in PvP-Situations plus less space in your inventory needed.

Locking gear is not OK. Other MMOs remember your maximum GS and judge you based on that, regardless if you decide to undress You should be able to switch gear inside a game if required.

nameexpired

magiquepurse wrote: »

Locking gear is not OK. Other MMOs remember your maximum GS and judge you based on that, regardless if you decide to undress You should be able to switch gear inside a game if required.

Just make the GS that was considered for matchmaking your maximum gear score, if you slab on more during a match it would just scale down.

lihin23nihil

Since we seem to be perpetually making suggestions to improve PVP here's my spit in the wind.

Ideally 2 queues: Premade/Partials in one and Solo only in the other.

Here's my outside the box concept:
1) Keep the queue and algorithms exactly as they are now but mix the teams up if necessary to balance the algorithm. It keeps the social aspect of PVPing with guildies and friends but should provide more interesting fights and a fun element of randomness. Should provide the most even fight from any 10 pvpers queuing at any time.
2) Then add a 'challenge party to PVP' option for party leaders to spawn a PVP match against another full party - premade challenging premade without all the unnecessary hurdles.

Hmm, I seem to have spit on my shoe...

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shajibsiddiqui1

pando83 wrote: »

Stop premades from pugstomping and improve balance in pvp and more people will play it. No player wants to get brutalized by a bunch of legendary guys grouping together with also usually broken enchants and builds.

There should be at least 1 normal queue working like the current one (premades and soloers mixed), and 1 queue where you're forced to solo queue. Then we see how it goes. My guess: the second queue would be far more balanced and fun.

The problem is not just premades stomping on pugs, its also overgeared players that are almost immortal where you need the entire team to take down a single person. If most of them are queing by themself while doing their dailies, all the group finder has to do is to spread out the overgeared players, instead of randomly placing them all on the same side, so that both sides have a chance of winning.

pando83

etelgrin wrote: »

Problem with all you people commenting here is that you don't understand the matchmaking system. Here's how it works.

1) It matches people regardless of gearscore .
2) The matching rule in domination is about your overall pvp score, example HR with 10 wins, 0 loses, 40 kills, 7 deaths 70 asists is qualified for rank - Overlord, me, CW 100 wins, 90 loses, 2700 kills, 1600 deaths 3000 asists im also Overlord. If I go higher to Ultimate Tyrant I will probably lose match, cause I'll have to fight people that are already this title and probably are premade, and will definately have better overall score or I will be to weak - depends on the view point. You can check that by pressing " L " and going into leadership tab, then pressing find me.
3) This method was used before in games - Warcraft III in "ladder matches". Where you had to fight stronger enemies not nessecarily progressing yourself through. What community did in Warcraft was losing 10 matches in a row w/o fighting to get a winning matches and high scores (lots of kills, low deaths, lots of assists). This method for sure works here, and someone is abusing it, this way you all people get the results as said above - gearscore differencies and unfair competition.
4) How to analize then? Go to leadership tab, see people on page 1, in your opinion is it possible that someone won 300 matches and lose only 10 times? Probably not, unless you team yourself with rookies (lowest rank) give them vorpals, then overall team-match rating will give you weaker team, and this is how enemy wins over you

Thanks for the read.
Travel safe,
~Etelgrin.

Not sure if i got it right but basically what happens is bis players exploiting the system to get high statistics? Btw, might be a good idea to have brackets with roughly this division:

0-9k
9k-12k
13k-17k
18k+

To at least have a first rough division based on GS, and then apply elo to each bracket.
GS must include armor and weapon enchants, and hp from armor/ enchants/gear.

shajibsiddiqui1

pando83 wrote: »

Not sure if i got it right but basically what happens is bis players exploiting the system to get high statistics? Btw, might be a good idea to have brackets with roughly this division:

0-9k
9k-12k
13k-17k
18k+

To at least have a first rough division based on GS, and then apply elo to each bracket.
GS must include armor and weapon enchants, and hp from armor/ enchants/gear.

Having a bracket for gear score to join pvp will be fine if there were enough players. However, even now with the free for all que system, it takes some time for the que to pop up. If they group people more fairly with people of high gear score kept seperate, forming an army of some sort, where the higher gear score leads the weaker players into battle.

magiquepurse

pando83 wrote: »

Not sure if i got it right but basically what happens is bis players exploiting the system to get high statistics? Btw, might be a good idea to have brackets with roughly this division:

0-9k
9k-12k
13k-17k
18k+

To at least have a first rough division based on GS, and then apply elo to each bracket.
GS must include armor and weapon enchants, and hp from armor/ enchants/gear.

Too many variables/bracket with GS. I have for example an 18.3K GS HR I didn't upgrade since mod 3. It has only epic weapon/belt and perfect SF/GPF, only 1 legendary artifact and just rank 7s.

Well this HR cannot even put a dent into a 19K HR with Leg. weapon/belt lol. I will survive for a bit, but in time I will be slowly destroyed without any chance whatsoever to turn the battle, even if I play perfectly (I tested this).

As for BiS people exploiting the system for ratings like described, no way it happens here (like that). Nobody will lose on purpose here, if you do, there's a good chance to drop considerably on the leaderboard, and for what gain? To fight weaker opponents? They offer no ELO gain, only drops.

What PvPers want are worthy opponents that make their ELO go up on win, and this is really hard to get. The most used methods are duo queueing and even solo if you have a class such as an HR, and try to carry very low ELO pugs vs good ELO adversaries by your class virtues (i.e. permaTR or immortal HR). Running full premades is almost always a sure way to drop on the leaderboard, as you will meet pugs with low ELO that will make you drop like 70% of the times.

helpimblindinrl

Maybe cryptic think people really like waiting. Maybe they saw people waiting at campfires and thought, they are all just doing that. Why not let them wait for dragons, they will really enjoy that.

cnxi

My favourite thing beside grinding dailies is waiting for dragons and epic encounters to spawn.

GS getting a higher priority in forming teams would be nice though.

umcjdking

My suggestion is simple.

Make it a 10 man queue, rather than a 5 man queue. Once all players accept, coding establishes the teams in a fashion that makes sense.

rashylewizz

What about gearswapping, tenacity and perfect weapon enchants?

rayrdan

Disable gear swap in pvp or memorize his higher one.
Pvp gearscore based.
Armor and weapon enchants need to give gs

elusiveonen7

I've been a fan of normalizing for a while now, it's less fun when you play these games for the sole purpose of stomping weaker people, but if you want to call pvp competitive, then it's the best option. Perfect, greater, and lesser enchants turn into normals. Rank 1-4,6-10 enchants turn into rank 5's. You could do this in a number of ways, but the goal is to reduce people winning because of gear.