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yoadoad
Member Posts: 182 Bounty Hunter
Thought this deserved a different topic than the Feedback/Bug report they had...
TRs Mod 5 changes have been announced. You can read them here.
Well, we can all agree all the trees are better than the previous ones, right? And attacks out of stealth now kill stealth, this probably means attacks like Duelist Momentum take a hit (I wonder if striking the air for setting up the flurry will reduce stealth as well), however every strike does 100% critical hit.
PoTB is twice as long, but deals 20% less damage, quite a bummer, I liked this skill a lot on PvP. Blitz got boosted, kind of weird, TRs have more AoE capabilities than GWFs now. WoB took the nerf it had to take. Impact shot does a bit more damage. Lashing does 50% more severity out of stealth, and First strike does 100% more damage. I like the Whisperknife changes.
As for the trees:
Saboteur does encourage stealth, and kind of helps with recovery as well. The T3 of "Behind the back" seem kind of difficult, I think the only consistent way of pulling it off would be using Deft Strike or Impact shot, both of those now do additional damage. The T4s are about more damage in stealth, Shadowy Opportunity looks like a big damage boost (75% weapon damage is more than twice of anything the weapon enchants has to offer). The problem is, like all "weapon damage", this won't increase your actual damage by a %, just add a number to your damage - So using Lashing Blade will trigger the same piercing damage as a single Cloud of Steel knives. This clearly benefits quick attacks that come out of stealth, the problem is all of our attacks drain stealth, so we'll have to wait and see how this plays out. One with the Shadows - Helps restore stealth and deals a bit more damage.
Overall I think this tree could be interesting to play as for a PvP standpoint, I imagine some sort of Burst-Stealth-Burst-Stealth style of play, and it'll be less about killing your opponent and more about hit and run tactics that would distract and set the stage for your teammates to kill the injured opponents. This tree offers nothing for PvE though and if you choose it you'll be about as useful as the current PvE TR.
Scoundrel seems to rely on deflection, life steal, high HP and CCs to survive. the T1s are weak passives that increase Life Steal and Deflection, Survivor & Savage Blows give further conditional boosts to Deflection and Life steal, Concussive Strikes is kind of interesting and could be used to annoy your opponent and use to start or finish a dazing combo, Low Blows is a damage booster for dazed opponents, which I expect this build to see a lot of, Mocking Gesture gives another conditional deflection (very original), Skullcracker gives additional damage and additional daze.
I think this tree is flawed. First of all, roleplaying wise, a tanky max-con TR seems unnatural (I know this is the current situation, but this is what they were trying to fix). Second, while it does have the tools to really keep the opponent dazed a long time, daze is a weak effect and the damage boosts aren't big enough to really kill anyone. Even if you keep your opponent dazed for 10 seconds (which is actually kind of possible with this build), how are you supposed to kill him? you can't land a Sly Flourish or Duelist Momentum on anything that will try to run from you. And what is this CC heavy TR supposed to do when he's not at a 1vs1 situation? He doesn't have the tools to daze everybody. I guess the Scoundrel is just there to provide support on PvP and help the damaging classes to take out opponents (Tanks for example won't like getting hit by a Scoundrel). As for a PvE standpoint, I think CWs will scream "Everything you do we can do better". Sure it would be nice to have a Scoundrel in your group, but why pick one when you can take a CW that has superior AoE CC and Damage?
Executioner focuses on burst damage. When I read it all I could think about was "Cheese". Arterial Cut and Grim Pleasure are damage boosters. Vicious Pursuit is also a damage booster. Twisted Grin is a burst damage booster which is kind of strange. Last Moments is a big damage booster, and I imagine it will help a lot on bosses. Exposed Weakness - A damage booster that lets you ignore armor when stealthy. Shadowborn is a 100% damage booster... who would have guessed. Shadow of Demise is wicked - You have 6 seconds to deal damage, and after those 6 seconds the target takes 50% of the damage you did as piercing damage that cannot be avoided. So if you use lashing followed by impact shot or something, and say you deal 15,000 total damage (You will deal a lot more), the target will take 7500 (!!!) damage.
So what happens to a TR that takes this path and strikes his opponent with Lashing Blade out of +stealth?
+50% crit severity out of stealth, +combat advantage bonus, +100% damage from first strike, +15% severity from Arterial Cut, +100% damage from Shadowborn, +25% Armor ignored from Exposed Weakness, +50% OF ALL THAT DAMAGE AFTER 6 SECONDS.
1 shot in 5..4..3..2..1..
So the Executioner is that gear based, no strategy/skill, cheesy one shot build that outdamages all other TRs in both PvP and PvE will be nerfed in Mod 6.
So yeah, we have one tree useless for PvE and requires strategy for PvP, one tree that goes against all Rogue intuition and tells you to boost CON and be tanky, and one tree that is the obvious choice because it overpowers the other 2 and requires no thought to play as at all. If you haven't bought a Vorpal Enchantment until now, make sure you get one...
I won't say if I like the changes or not, we'll have to see how they actually work in game, but this is my opinion of them. What do you guys think?
TRs Mod 5 changes have been announced. You can read them here.
Well, we can all agree all the trees are better than the previous ones, right? And attacks out of stealth now kill stealth, this probably means attacks like Duelist Momentum take a hit (I wonder if striking the air for setting up the flurry will reduce stealth as well), however every strike does 100% critical hit.
PoTB is twice as long, but deals 20% less damage, quite a bummer, I liked this skill a lot on PvP. Blitz got boosted, kind of weird, TRs have more AoE capabilities than GWFs now. WoB took the nerf it had to take. Impact shot does a bit more damage. Lashing does 50% more severity out of stealth, and First strike does 100% more damage. I like the Whisperknife changes.
As for the trees:
Saboteur does encourage stealth, and kind of helps with recovery as well. The T3 of "Behind the back" seem kind of difficult, I think the only consistent way of pulling it off would be using Deft Strike or Impact shot, both of those now do additional damage. The T4s are about more damage in stealth, Shadowy Opportunity looks like a big damage boost (75% weapon damage is more than twice of anything the weapon enchants has to offer). The problem is, like all "weapon damage", this won't increase your actual damage by a %, just add a number to your damage - So using Lashing Blade will trigger the same piercing damage as a single Cloud of Steel knives. This clearly benefits quick attacks that come out of stealth, the problem is all of our attacks drain stealth, so we'll have to wait and see how this plays out. One with the Shadows - Helps restore stealth and deals a bit more damage.
Overall I think this tree could be interesting to play as for a PvP standpoint, I imagine some sort of Burst-Stealth-Burst-Stealth style of play, and it'll be less about killing your opponent and more about hit and run tactics that would distract and set the stage for your teammates to kill the injured opponents. This tree offers nothing for PvE though and if you choose it you'll be about as useful as the current PvE TR.
Scoundrel seems to rely on deflection, life steal, high HP and CCs to survive. the T1s are weak passives that increase Life Steal and Deflection, Survivor & Savage Blows give further conditional boosts to Deflection and Life steal, Concussive Strikes is kind of interesting and could be used to annoy your opponent and use to start or finish a dazing combo, Low Blows is a damage booster for dazed opponents, which I expect this build to see a lot of, Mocking Gesture gives another conditional deflection (very original), Skullcracker gives additional damage and additional daze.
I think this tree is flawed. First of all, roleplaying wise, a tanky max-con TR seems unnatural (I know this is the current situation, but this is what they were trying to fix). Second, while it does have the tools to really keep the opponent dazed a long time, daze is a weak effect and the damage boosts aren't big enough to really kill anyone. Even if you keep your opponent dazed for 10 seconds (which is actually kind of possible with this build), how are you supposed to kill him? you can't land a Sly Flourish or Duelist Momentum on anything that will try to run from you. And what is this CC heavy TR supposed to do when he's not at a 1vs1 situation? He doesn't have the tools to daze everybody. I guess the Scoundrel is just there to provide support on PvP and help the damaging classes to take out opponents (Tanks for example won't like getting hit by a Scoundrel). As for a PvE standpoint, I think CWs will scream "Everything you do we can do better". Sure it would be nice to have a Scoundrel in your group, but why pick one when you can take a CW that has superior AoE CC and Damage?
Executioner focuses on burst damage. When I read it all I could think about was "Cheese". Arterial Cut and Grim Pleasure are damage boosters. Vicious Pursuit is also a damage booster. Twisted Grin is a burst damage booster which is kind of strange. Last Moments is a big damage booster, and I imagine it will help a lot on bosses. Exposed Weakness - A damage booster that lets you ignore armor when stealthy. Shadowborn is a 100% damage booster... who would have guessed. Shadow of Demise is wicked - You have 6 seconds to deal damage, and after those 6 seconds the target takes 50% of the damage you did as piercing damage that cannot be avoided. So if you use lashing followed by impact shot or something, and say you deal 15,000 total damage (You will deal a lot more), the target will take 7500 (!!!) damage.
So what happens to a TR that takes this path and strikes his opponent with Lashing Blade out of +stealth?
+50% crit severity out of stealth, +combat advantage bonus, +100% damage from first strike, +15% severity from Arterial Cut, +100% damage from Shadowborn, +25% Armor ignored from Exposed Weakness, +50% OF ALL THAT DAMAGE AFTER 6 SECONDS.
1 shot in 5..4..3..2..1..
So the Executioner is that gear based, no strategy/skill, cheesy one shot build that outdamages all other TRs in both PvP and PvE will be nerfed in Mod 6.
So yeah, we have one tree useless for PvE and requires strategy for PvP, one tree that goes against all Rogue intuition and tells you to boost CON and be tanky, and one tree that is the obvious choice because it overpowers the other 2 and requires no thought to play as at all. If you haven't bought a Vorpal Enchantment until now, make sure you get one...
I won't say if I like the changes or not, we'll have to see how they actually work in game, but this is my opinion of them. What do you guys think?
Post edited by yoadoad on
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Comments
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Scoundrel is no longer a scoundrel, but a brawler, with the full damage limitations of such a crude fighter.
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
This is bad and really handicaps us. It's hard enough to compete with SWs and HRs and their ranged attacks which are much easier to execute, and it's not like we have high survivability like the GWF and GF. No Stealth + Increased AoE range = too much threat for us to handle
I like the Saboteur and Executioner trees, exec will probably get crazy damage.
But I think one of the main class problems wasn't adressed, we're slow, we have just 2 dodges, our attacks nail us to the ground for too long. TR should be all about mobility and fast attacks, and currently it's basically the contrary.
Ding!
I think the devs were focusing on power and feat overhauls as per the mod 4 changes, but, really, that's not what we needed. Yes, some tweaks were needed, but largely most of the complaints were about how un-nimble the TR was. That's something more difficult to address, true, but it's a necessary part of the gameplay.
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
We already have trouble surviving all the AoE and attacks pulled onto us by <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> tanks as it is. ItC nerf and stealth destruction leave us without what little defense we had. No more dodges, no more survivability(Unless we take the path that doesn't do damage). Our powers have even longer cooldown now, because Dazzling Blades is gone. Stealth still depletes while building by getting hit. Executioner is nice alpha-strike now it sounds like, but our damage has long been mostly DF bleeds maintained long-term on bosses. Good for PvP and maybe solos in PvE, but... Well, we'll see. But we have even less ability to maintain being in close enough to keep those bleed stacks up now.
Also, Executioner was already fairly derp but did require some thought, now it's just pure GS flailing.
Not looking forward to this at all. It doesn't address any of the real issues TR has in PvE and sounds like it's not even going to be fun to play. Ugh.
These changes haven't even hit the preview server yet. This is the moment where we have to give our advice to help better our class, not just give up on it and say it's dead.
We have to clearly give feedback about what needs to be improved upon.
we needed damage immunity and perma-stealth to not die by aoes?
i just hit normal itc and let the 75% deflect severity do it's magic. add in deft strike to dodge cone aoes and you should never be out of stamina to dodge. you don't need much more than that to survive any pve stuff. pvp is a whole different story though but that's a failure of a point while glyphs continue to melt everyone right now.
although i am not liking the loss of our 5% critical party buff.
Deft isn't really handy here for surviving, smoke is useful as is ITC but that would leave one offensive encounter or shadow strike. How things work here you really needed that stealth chance before, but the new blitz sounds perfect here and lashing is as well since the mobs are seldom alive/stationary long enough to use at wills.
The boss is really easy and you don't even need to dodge or ITC to 'tank', I found a little side stepping action and I avoid all he throws at me (well most of the time, sometimes I step too long). Worst part was him was catching aggro when not being ready as it is easy to live if you have it, just the switch can catch one off guard is all.
Seams like they take the regular mechanic from other games without thinking that we are not the regular rogue from other games.
In PvP, we loose our rôle and became a kind of anoying guy.
In PvE, we are still completely useless out of boss fight, and that was already the situation, causing us to be undesirable...
Seems that they just want to keep what we actually have, nothing new. Oh yes, now a useless debuff last twice as long than before. But it is still useless.
That resume thoses change I think.
Of course, need to try before giving a final opinion...
I just hope that when they implement this, its done correctly. It needs to be done correctly, everything has to work, not be patched 6 months later.
Voice of reason, Rei. and Neicalus, PvE TR is not dead. she'll just take some reworking of playstyles.
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
Instead, its one big horde of a rant of;
WAAAAAAAHHHH ALL I WANTED WAS TO BE ABLE TO PERMA AND STILL DO 10K DAMAGE PER ATTACK LIKE WE USED TO!!!! tantrum.
I'm worried about a few stuff just like any other. But then, that's why they're gonna give us testing opportunities to play it out and then give feedback.
What those horde of whiney bunch of idiots are not getting, is that the whole purpose of testing stuff is "if the changes don't work out, then what can us developers implement or change, so that it can?.
As players, what we do is help out how the new direction they've come up with can actually work out seamlessly, and give opinions as to which direction things can be tweaked to. Instead, about 90% of the people in the official feedback thread simply starts a riot and a flame war with knee-jerk chanting "We Don't Want No Change".
Unbelievable, how ungrateful and nearsighted people can be.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
when in stealth, attacks should do a lot less damage to the stealth meter than as it is
when out of stealth, attacks should do a lot less damage to the stealth meter than as it is
the default stealth duration itself, should be increased to (IMO) 10 seconds to 6 seconds
the new Saboteuer feat, Return to Shadows, should refill 20~25% of the stealth meter even when attacks are made coming out of stealth
What the developers have in mind with these changes, like they've said, is to prevent long stream of attacks while invisible. Attacks are allowed but clearly limited -- hence, what they want us is to use encounter powers as the main stay of attacks -- stealth being a tactical positioning tool, not a main form of defense.
In that case, quite obviously, we should be checking out if the defense we have out of stealth is adequate enough to support these line of changes. If not, we suggest stuff that can -- that's the whole point of testing stuff.
...instead of throwing this whole bloody, ungrateful riot up their noses.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Then obviously we can shift our stats and enchantments, gears around to go with a low-crit build, and invest it into a different stat to 'round-up' the general performance, like more HP, more deflect, etc etc..
It's a simple matter of adaptation.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
So, let's get on preview and make mistakes while it doesn't really matter!
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
This. I have already been loosing stealth quickly from smart opponents. Even with tenacious concealment up. So what devs want is me loosing stealth quickly even from the stupid opponents. And I don't like that.
I see everyone running with lashing blade (too much tempting with 100% crit and +50% sev) and shadow strike to have at least some control over stealth rebuild. So much for variety of builds. Then every infiltrator will probably sport impossible to catch anyway. Cool.
Most armor set and equipment give us some crit. about 1500 from most T2 armors. Often, that is their main stat, and it became useless. Armor that don't give it are fairly impossible to get without hours and hours of farm or/and have useless bonus.
That is also a consequence of our dexterity. Should we remove it ?
Maybe we take charisma ? They don't speak about a fixe while, if I remember well, it seems broken.
Constitution ? That's a principle question for me : we are not warrior, we are not constitution-based. If they made-us constitution-based, there is no rogue anymore on neverwinter, so I live.
They remove perma, but here I can't see a real compensation. Only the scoundrel will get some survivability, others get nothing to survive, while perma was a way to do so; maybe to efficient, but it was our survival mechanic. In PvE, people did not criticize us for perma but for our lack of utility. We were only usefull in boss fight and they don't like it. now we are more fragile, and even more boss-fight oriented.
Do not mis-understand me, I wasn't happy with perma, but we still have fairly the same mobility as a GF, without it's armor. That's not what a rogue is.
Maybe I will change my mind when testing, but for now, I see nerf, not buff.
I see more of uselessness for dungeon, not a place in party.
I don't care about PvP, I want a place in dungeon groups, I want to stop asking for hours and hours for a group that will accept a rogue. Even in most guilds I have tried, they were trying to convince me to stop playing a TR and take something useful as a replacement. They weren't interested by a boss-oriented-only class, that is still what we are, no, that is even more what we are, with those change.
YES
Our 3 TR stack eSoT, right?! :rolleyes:
Back on topic:
Don't really know what to say about these changes, but the itc one I don't like.
(Gotta test the other ones.)
I know this is not very constructive but you all know that a TR has no defence other than the TAB, and with these changes a WK either attacks with less damaging at wills and dies, or stands around in stealth doing nothing. Perhaps it is just me – but what’s the point, you may as well just roll a melee HR and have a decent chance of not being dead, or perhaps a SW and have some mobility and mob killing power.
I’d be interested in hearing any other WK’s opinions – MI still have an at will to use, we don’t full stop, MI’s still have some use of stealth, we don’t full stop – So all these improvements to damage while in stealth just don’t happen because you are not in stealth long enough as a WK - that’s my opinion.
It seems that an HR will be able to be in stealth [due to their Daily] as much as a TR now.
That does not make sense
The Class is still slow. TR's need a speed Boost and a Dodge boost.
Both should at least be on par with the other light armor wearing class the HR.
The fact that a TR can't catch a GWF which is supposedly wearing FULL PLATE ARMOR makes no sense.
I do think a lot of positive changes are being brought in, and am hopefully the executioner path will be a viable PVE option.
I got into PvP with my TR because I could not get into Groups for PVE.
I would like to see TRs asked for in Zone Chat for PVE again vs booted at the campfire if I join a random group
That will be the ultimate factor if these changes are successful
Leaving dead question marks everywhere
Now all the "permas" who use the play style, but "dislike" playing with it, can go back to playing as the hard-hitting rogues that farmed everyone's tears back in the beta days.
not realy impact shot is still dead .
Lashing blade is not that good really. Not that i was planning to be suicide bomber who would run around with lb and die right away.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)