Hey Crush, since you're here: what about arcane spells? Arcane enhancement from 1/2/3% to 3/6/9% and it would be a good start to have something else then chill CWs only! It might be incentive to bring Shard back, which is now pretty useless.
Btw is Repel fixed yet?
And when will Renegades be useful? I don't know if you've noticed, but since m4 on forums people are mentioning Oppressors and Thaumas ONLY. As if Rene was total waste (which it is now) You guys have murdered this tree. At least make stacking Crits-Cha-combat advantage meaningful so that it actually works better for renegades.
Bids he then the spruces to singer him an anthems!
And the Woodsie Lord binders them fleshes to stone!
Then what's the point of chill stacks if nothing actually freezes?
I'd say it's supposed to Proc shatter strike from Oppressor capstone and provide a slow for everyone that isn't far into Thaum/Renegade. It isn't revolutionary for Freeze to break on damage. It's been like that since launch. I have no idea why they thought it was a good idea to suddenly change that for DPS CW as well as Oppressor.
It needs to only benefit the control tree or there is no reason to take that feat path. As it stands you get Oppressor control right along with Thaum damage, which can't be intentional.
And yes, just to say it along with everyone else, Renegade is now terrible which is sad since I played that feat path for almost a year.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Its all RoF in pvp thats all you see is CWs up down all around Rof spamming pretty lame!
Funny thing is I ran into a super geared CW yesterday who played it old-school and killed us all using magic missle. I'm not sure if he was testing viability without ROF because of this proposed nerf or he was doing it just to mess with us, but he had no trouble taking any of us out.
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited September 2014
What? How can you NOT have an easier time soloing with your Thaumaturge after the Mod 4 changes. You must be using an absolutely horribly broken and terrible spec. Right now, Thaumaturge CW's is about as easy as it gets. :eek:
Same spec CW as in the guide for it. the only diff was changes made in mod4. Kept it all the same as it was in mod3. same gear same IWD daily's. Something changed it in a bad way not a good way. Infact if anything it should be better than it was in mod3 but thats not what happened.
tnx
REF: The base guide i went by was 'Stox's PVE CW Thaum DPS guide'
It's obsolete. Most of Stox's assumption about rotation and effect got intentionally nerfed to prevent the burst/dps/explosion style from working. Look at Enko's Frozen Thaum for a current build and explanation.
Sad to hear that, i will take a look at what your suggesting as what i have now is poo-doo.
Mostly changes like these become quite fustrating. Now not only will have to re-do it totaly but the gear wount be right prob the enchants as well. that took me a long time to get that stuff and wasent cheap or easy.
Anyway tnx
I had to change up my play also for one of my CW's. Gear & such didn't change just the feats & rotation. My other CW is a bit pig-headed (renegade/ss) and overgeared enough to still use a variation of the old ways. What has become key is chill stacking to freeze mobs (which will get reduced due by a nerf/fix in a couple weeks), but the counter is to use Steal Time & Shard for the downtime of chill. Also when you get a chance, max out orb of impostion (+75% control), and use that when you have control issues (I use it in IWD Kessel's Retreat, everywhere but boss). Also Storm Spell (till it's nerfed) is amazing.....
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited September 2014
You won't have to change any gear, just move around a few powers and you're done.
This thread seems to be split into 2 different response groups. Namely pvp GFs complaining about the only class that they can't auto-win against (although many still do) and PVE players concerned that a control wizard is now able to control mobs much better than before.
Firstly, to the GF group: what on earth makes you think that you should be able to survive everything thats thrown at you whilst keeping your prone abilities and increase in damage? With the exception of CW freeze, GF are all but truely "unstoppable" in pvp. Enjoy your module 4 buffs and accept the fact that you will still die in pvp along with every other class that chooses to play.
Secondly, to the PVE group: I would strongly advise all pve players to not ask for cw to be reverted back to module 3 status. CW were incredibly powerful in all dungeons and pve content to the point where "2 GWF and 3 CW" teams were so popular it was to the exclusion of almost all other combinations. As for freeze breaking on damage I'm not entirely sure how that mechanic would work. Are we suggesting any damage would break it regardless of how minor? Or a significant amount of damage so as not to render the act of freezing redundant? I'm certain that adding a cooldown to chill stacks would be an incredibly stupid idea but those ideas seem to be the ones that gain the most support.
All things considered any changes to the "frostiness" of CW will only result in attention being focussed on another aspect of the class which players don't like and squeal about whether pvp or pve. From a personal point of view I enjoy the extra control and survivability in this module but dislike the auto-damage procs and overly-simplistic play style CW have in this module. Its a conundrum.
As for freeze breaking on damage I'm not entirely sure how that mechanic would work. Are we suggesting any damage would break it regardless of how minor? Or a significant amount of damage so as not to render the act of freezing redundant? I'm certain that adding a cooldown to chill stacks would be an incredibly stupid idea but those ideas seem to be the ones that gain the most support.
Well, considering freeze broke on damage literally up until the introduction of Module 4 I don't really know what to say. Just think of how it worked a few weeks ago and you'll have an idea of what it should still do for two of the three feat paths.
The introduction of the Oppressor tree should have been the only thing that changed the freeze mechanic. Instead, every high damage SS/Thaum can now freeze things forever and for some reason the developers want to put in an immunity window instead of just reverting freeze and letting the Oppressor Shatter Strike capstone be the thing that extends the stun.
It's really such an obvious solution that I can't even fathom why they want to add immunity windows. It will just break more things for the class and make control less appealing for PvE. Certainly a five second immunity isn't the end of the world since things are usually dead before freeze wears off anyway but it makes it a virtual nightmare with multiple CW in the group. Oppressor will simply be out of luck if someone elses freezes first for their cap feat, so you might as well spec Thaum and kill them before freeze wears off. That way no one can wreck your cap feat.
I also don't understand why they made Oppressor so much better for Spell Storm's and so much worse for Master of Flame. What can a MoF possibly do that add's five instant chill stacks to as many things as they can hit? Nothing? Well, that makes sense right? 0.o
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
0
schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited September 2014
My two mains are GWF & GF and i am aganst nerfing CW-s controll and dmg .
This will lead agan to huge PVE nerf what we dont want .
But i want my CC immunity as a GF becuse its not working.
Instead messing (reworking) agan with CW why not fix what is really broken?
As GWF i dont have any problem with CW why? Beacuse my CC immunity is working.
Not all GWFs and GFs want to nerf CWs .
Just those how not want any challenge .
This thread seems to be split into 2 different response groups. Namely pvp GFs complaining about the only class that they can't auto-win against (although many still do) and PVE players concerned that a control wizard is now able to control mobs much better than before.
Firstly, to the GF group: what on earth makes you think that you should be able to survive everything thats thrown at you whilst keeping your prone abilities and increase in damage? With the exception of CW freeze, GF are all but truely "unstoppable" in pvp. Enjoy your module 4 buffs and accept the fact that you will still die in pvp along with every other class that chooses to play.
Secondly, to the PVE group: I would strongly advise all pve players to not ask for cw to be reverted back to module 3 status. CW were incredibly powerful in all dungeons and pve content to the point where "2 GWF and 3 CW" teams were so popular it was to the exclusion of almost all other combinations. As for freeze breaking on damage I'm not entirely sure how that mechanic would work. Are we suggesting any damage would break it regardless of how minor? Or a significant amount of damage so as not to render the act of freezing redundant? I'm certain that adding a cooldown to chill stacks would be an incredibly stupid idea but those ideas seem to be the ones that gain the most support.
All things considered any changes to the "frostiness" of CW will only result in attention being focussed on another aspect of the class which players don't like and squeal about whether pvp or pve. From a personal point of view I enjoy the extra control and survivability in this module but dislike the auto-damage procs and overly-simplistic play style CW have in this module. Its a conundrum.
Patch Notes: NW.25.20140820a.7
Classes and Balance
Guardian Fighter: Knight's Valor: This power now has a maximum range of 150' and requires line of sight to affect an ally.
Guardian Fighter: Knight's Valor: While this power is toggled on and the Guardian Fighter loses targeting of all allies, the visual effect now pulses to warn the player that no allies are affected. http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?751701-Knight-s-Valor-buffs-now-everyone-in-sigth
And gues what how the f.... care about this is not good in pve .
Its more inportant to nerf it for pvp why you all not asked to revork it for only and i say agan ONLY for pvp part of the game.
Ask for nerf and devs will lisen.
Asl for bug fix from beta and they dont care.
So frustrated bad players will start nerf thread qq to give back what they got .
Its common and accepted.
Start Char in 2014 08 28 reach your chosen char up to lvl 60 q for pvp defated by the frirst well greaded player more then 2-3 times in row ,how spend more then 1 year on her char then come to: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/forum.php
Cry continuously start ower 20 thread about you problem and the nerf will come .
As i see this is your problem too they are good ppl how spend money and time not trow away they GF when nobody wanted her to any aspect of the game now they are even and you say they are op and unstoppable.
Mybe your next move will be this NERF GF !!
Gues what already nerfed after 3 week.
The first iteration we are looking at is after being frozen from chill you will be immune to Chill stacks for 3 seconds after the freeze would have ended (before any strength and resistance get involved).
Isn't it better to just make Freeze break on damage again?
Isn't it better to just make Freeze break on damage again?
The primary reason for getting away from this is that it makes CC wildly unpredictable and entirely worthless on a bigger target (who is controllable) but is under fire as it would break instantly. That in general feels really bad.
As a general principle it is in most cases better to have consistent output who is affected by timing rather than variable output that relies on outside factors for systems like this. Remember that this is not by its nature a "long fragile CC" similar to sleep. If it were holding a target for 45 seconds or some other long period it would make sense. Diminishing returns on stuns like this are generally the right way to go, but the challenges of a true DR system on a series of stuns whose durations are not all equal are fairly complex and challenging. Given that making freeze itself operate on a more binary system of "Immune/Not Immune" moves much closer to that goal of letting a single Wizard be a powerful force for controlling foes without letting stacking them be awesome all the time. Two wizards will have to work together to make sure they don't waste their freezing potential under this system, and one wizard can still provide a substantial amount of control by spreading freezes. This just prevents it from being "permanent".
Breaking on damage is a difficult thing to balance because in most cases falls into one of two categories. 1) So easy to break that the CC becomes difficult to notice and provides little benefit beyond an interrupt and 2)So hard to break that it basically operates as if there were no way to break it in normal gameplay.
Rather than try and balance these two situations and make it feel good across all possible gear levels, it is far simpler to understand that after a foe has been frozen they cant be frozen again for several seconds. This provides a clear and consistent behavior to all wizards, regardless of their gear. And making the duration of this immunity not literally scale on the CC duration means that wizards who devote themselves to CC can still get higher uptime on their CC than other Wizards without locking out all gameplay.
The primary reason for getting away from this is that it makes CC wildly unpredictable and entirely worthless on a bigger target (who is controllable) but is under fire as it would break instantly. That in general feels really bad.
I just feel like freeze doesn't need to be a hard CC at all, but rather a thing that proc's CC from Oppressor's Shatter Strike (which still overlaps with freeze itself, wasting much of it's CC potential) while still providing a meaningful slow and occasional AoE interrupt for damage dealing wizards.
I just don't feel like anyone is going to slot Orb of Imposition and go for tons of Control Bonus in order to freeze things longer when, by it's very nature, you can not control Chill or Freeze with multiple wizards. It is, as you say, completely unpredictable and uncontrollable.
This is exacerbated by the Chill applying powers being the bread and butter of the DPS wizards which essentially means if there is a DPS wizard and a Control Wizard in a group together they are going to both apply chill non-stop. How are we supposed to get around this in PUG groups let alone in preplanned groups? Are damage wizards supposed to just ignore CoI/Icy Terrain and it's massive damage potential, or are Oppressor's supposed to just not take their capstone feat?
Essentially, adding a period of time where chill and freeze can't be applied doesn't seem to actually make anything more predictable it just makes control a fairly unappealing option unless an even bigger rework to chill and freeze removes those effects entirely from your standard 'damage' setup.
Either way, I really appreciate you taking the time to let us know what you guys are planning.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
There should just be a balance for pvp and leave them alone in pve. It should take longer to freeze people or there should be some immunity between CC on players, many other games feature this. Now its just non stop endless freezing spam.
If that matters, I really liked the way Freeze was before Mod 4. It felt like it was right because it could proc from an at-will, so it wasn't supposed to be a good long CC; just an interrupt that you could use whenever you wanted. It was good to make a target Freeze to make sure it couldn't avoid the encounter combo I was about to land... and just for that. It felt like an intelligent use of a small CC provided by an at-will.
But I understand that, in your PoV, Freeze isn't supposed to act like Sleep. And yea, DRs would be really good.
(´･ ω ･`)
0
kalyuxaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2014
As thauma I don't have any problemo but making a non-"perma" control wizard seems to be a good idea for pvp, not for pve as oppresor. There should be a feat in that branch that allows break this inmune limitation, only for oppre. Or do it shorter for them because it's futile being an oppresor cw chosing a branch that allows you to stack more chill in less time if you have the same limitation as thauma or rene ones.
It's wasting points.
All the people saying it will be too hard to control mobs now in pve, chill stacks arent everything, i can lock any amount of enemies down with CoI on tab, Shard, steal time and icy terrain, i would personally like for more to be done about the arcane types of control, arcane mastery buffs these abilities and yet it is so hard to keep stacks of it up and nothing on the oppressor tree buffs shard, steal time, entanglish(ish), repel, shield or arcane mastery... My point is that there is more to CC on a CW than chill stacks and i personally would like to see some stuff added to the oppressor tree
There are actually 2 problems here we are looking at.
Firstly, Guardian Block is not always blocking CC that comes in from the front like it is supposed to, so we are looking at that independent of Wizard CC potential.
Secondly, Wizards are getting a little *too* much chain CC potential. Given this we are looking at adding a duration after being frozen where you are immune to Chill Stacks. This duration will be related to how long you are controlled for. This will mean landing a successful Shatter Strike on the target will give them a little longer safe time before they can be controlled again.
The first iteration we are looking at is after being frozen from chill you will be immune to Chill stacks for 3 seconds after the freeze would have ended (before any strength and resistance get involved). After a successful shatter strike you will be immune for 3 seconds on players and 5 seconds on critters. This means that wizards can lock down a large number of foes but cannot do it forever. It is important to note that multiple wizards will SHARE this lockout, so it cannot be subverted by stacking more wizards.
We want controlling foes to be a powerful utility without totally disabling gameplay for everyone else.
Thank you for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Finally got my computer up and running so looking around the forums for things I have missed...
And this is a gem.
Thank you Crush. I don't mind CW's having more CC but PvP was not fun sitting in an icecube nonstop. Glad this is being looked into.
All the people saying it will be too hard to control mobs now in pve, chill stacks arent everything, i can lock any amount of enemies down with CoI on tab, Shard, steal time and icy terrain...
i would personally like for more to be done about the arcane types of control, arcane mastery buffs these abilities and yet it is so hard to keep stacks of it up and nothing on the oppressor tree buffs shard, steal time, entanglish(ish), repel, shield or arcane mastery... My point is that there is more to CC on a CW than chill stacks and i personally would like to see some stuff added to the oppressor tree
The best dailies in the game are all Arcane for CW, so there's that. Keep in mind Oppressive Force, which hits infinite targets, takes advantage of those AM stacks and can crit when timed with EotS. It's basically the best spell/combo in the game and is used by basically everyone that speed nukes through CN. That 10% damage nerf isn't even noticeable to me. It can still hit for a cool million plus per cast and apparently that is absolutely fine with everyone.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
independent of a control freak, there is a point that is crucial here for pve.
you can search any cn run on youtube . the biggest problem right now is the combo Oppressive Force +steal time. letme explain.
Cw "x" teleport to the horde and spreads all enemies with daily. this time, he uses steal time, paralyzing them these extremes of the map. so they turn against the party, then the trap is ice on the ground.
the old burst damage was problematic because of the feets, but the focus of the cw was frontal damage. singularity + shard. this control "logistc" is important to all party.
This spreading/paralyze effect (freeze is a secondary problem) need to eversed. or, at least, opressive force need to lose this spreading effect.
this nerf in chill dont help in nothing if this rotation dont change.
My top choice would be to have chill break on damage again, even if just in PvP, as it did not present much of a problem in M3.
However, I understand the problem that the current freeze mechanic presents in both PvE and PvP. Essentially you want to lengthen the cool down on Freeze, and I could get behind this change more so if Oppressors are hit less by it since they should have their control, in my opinion, and their capstone revolves entirely around Freeze.
oh god please only nerf the pvp side.
I gave up playing on pvp due to high latency and repetitiveness of the mode, do not nerf the pve side too.
lolwat?
I think you got the modes inverted buddy.
OT: Seriously, how hard is it to put:
Oppressor: THE CONTROLLER, the only one that ACTUALLY CONTROLLS WELL and can lock down people, right now a Rene or Thaum pratically does the same thing.. almost.
Thaum: Should be the striker/damage dealer using DoT/Chill
Renegade: Should be the massive critter who specializes IN ARCANE SPELLS, Arcane buffs should get super-buffed in this tree.
An oppressor cw can perma freeze you, if you are a class without cc break then they can freeze you until you die and there is nothing you can do about it. It happend to me today in dom, I was frozen without being able to lift guard or potion at all, I never had an opening to attack once either. It seems a little wrong that he could hit over 5k with the at-will too though. I hate complaining but spending half a dom game as an ice cube gets a little annoying lol.
No class should have perma control on a player, there should always be a way out or an opening to escape.
If other class mechanics worked properly this wouldn't be a problem, but bugs are making it worse.
I would like to know that, after the change, what will be the difference between CW's cc and other classes' cc? Imho, how CW's freeze/chill currently works has its existence value because it shows that CW's cc is obviously more superior than other classes'.
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited September 2014
If you're insistent on an immunity, you need to make them immune to freezing, but not gathering chill stacks. If you make things immune to chill stacks, you've just negated the bonuses from:
Two Artifact Weapons
Blighting Power Feat
Bitter Cold Feat
Chilling Control Feat
Cold Infusion Feat
Glacial Movement Feat
Alacrity Feat
Change also represents a pretty significant nerf to the Shatter Strike Capstone.
It basically guts the Oppressor tree, and we're back to Thaumaturge being, without a doubt, the one tree to rule them all for CW's.
Comments
Btw is Repel fixed yet?
And when will Renegades be useful? I don't know if you've noticed, but since m4 on forums people are mentioning Oppressors and Thaumas ONLY. As if Rene was total waste (which it is now) You guys have murdered this tree. At least make stacking Crits-Cha-combat advantage meaningful so that it actually works better for renegades.
I'd say it's supposed to Proc shatter strike from Oppressor capstone and provide a slow for everyone that isn't far into Thaum/Renegade. It isn't revolutionary for Freeze to break on damage. It's been like that since launch. I have no idea why they thought it was a good idea to suddenly change that for DPS CW as well as Oppressor.
It needs to only benefit the control tree or there is no reason to take that feat path. As it stands you get Oppressor control right along with Thaum damage, which can't be intentional.
And yes, just to say it along with everyone else, Renegade is now terrible which is sad since I played that feat path for almost a year.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Funny thing is I ran into a super geared CW yesterday who played it old-school and killed us all using magic missle. I'm not sure if he was testing viability without ROF because of this proposed nerf or he was doing it just to mess with us, but he had no trouble taking any of us out.
It's obsolete. Most of Stox's assumption about rotation and effect got intentionally nerfed to prevent the burst/dps/explosion style from working. Look at Enko's Frozen Thaum for a current build and explanation.
Firstly, to the GF group: what on earth makes you think that you should be able to survive everything thats thrown at you whilst keeping your prone abilities and increase in damage? With the exception of CW freeze, GF are all but truely "unstoppable" in pvp. Enjoy your module 4 buffs and accept the fact that you will still die in pvp along with every other class that chooses to play.
Secondly, to the PVE group: I would strongly advise all pve players to not ask for cw to be reverted back to module 3 status. CW were incredibly powerful in all dungeons and pve content to the point where "2 GWF and 3 CW" teams were so popular it was to the exclusion of almost all other combinations. As for freeze breaking on damage I'm not entirely sure how that mechanic would work. Are we suggesting any damage would break it regardless of how minor? Or a significant amount of damage so as not to render the act of freezing redundant? I'm certain that adding a cooldown to chill stacks would be an incredibly stupid idea but those ideas seem to be the ones that gain the most support.
All things considered any changes to the "frostiness" of CW will only result in attention being focussed on another aspect of the class which players don't like and squeal about whether pvp or pve. From a personal point of view I enjoy the extra control and survivability in this module but dislike the auto-damage procs and overly-simplistic play style CW have in this module. Its a conundrum.
Well, considering freeze broke on damage literally up until the introduction of Module 4 I don't really know what to say. Just think of how it worked a few weeks ago and you'll have an idea of what it should still do for two of the three feat paths.
The introduction of the Oppressor tree should have been the only thing that changed the freeze mechanic. Instead, every high damage SS/Thaum can now freeze things forever and for some reason the developers want to put in an immunity window instead of just reverting freeze and letting the Oppressor Shatter Strike capstone be the thing that extends the stun.
It's really such an obvious solution that I can't even fathom why they want to add immunity windows. It will just break more things for the class and make control less appealing for PvE. Certainly a five second immunity isn't the end of the world since things are usually dead before freeze wears off anyway but it makes it a virtual nightmare with multiple CW in the group. Oppressor will simply be out of luck if someone elses freezes first for their cap feat, so you might as well spec Thaum and kill them before freeze wears off. That way no one can wreck your cap feat.
I also don't understand why they made Oppressor so much better for Spell Storm's and so much worse for Master of Flame. What can a MoF possibly do that add's five instant chill stacks to as many things as they can hit? Nothing? Well, that makes sense right? 0.o
This will lead agan to huge PVE nerf what we dont want .
But i want my CC immunity as a GF becuse its not working.
Instead messing (reworking) agan with CW why not fix what is really broken?
As GWF i dont have any problem with CW why? Beacuse my CC immunity is working.
Not all GWFs and GFs want to nerf CWs .
Just those how not want any challenge .
Nobody want to be immortal but GF is the or shoud be the true tank .
Ppl want only cc immunity but community work like this :
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?745191-GF-s-Knights-Valor-is-Destroying-PvP
Patch Notes: NW.25.20140820a.7
Classes and Balance
Guardian Fighter: Knight's Valor: This power now has a maximum range of 150' and requires line of sight to affect an ally.
Guardian Fighter: Knight's Valor: While this power is toggled on and the Guardian Fighter loses targeting of all allies, the visual effect now pulses to warn the player that no allies are affected.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?751701-Knight-s-Valor-buffs-now-everyone-in-sigth
And gues what how the f.... care about this is not good in pve .
Its more inportant to nerf it for pvp why you all not asked to revork it for only and i say agan ONLY for pvp part of the game.
Ask for nerf and devs will lisen.
Asl for bug fix from beta and they dont care.
So frustrated bad players will start nerf thread qq to give back what they got .
Its common and accepted.
Start Char in 2014 08 28 reach your chosen char up to lvl 60 q for pvp defated by the frirst well greaded player more then 2-3 times in row ,how spend more then 1 year on her char then come to:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/forum.php
Cry continuously start ower 20 thread about you problem and the nerf will come .
As i see this is your problem too they are good ppl how spend money and time not trow away they GF when nobody wanted her to any aspect of the game now they are even and you say they are op and unstoppable.
Mybe your next move will be this NERF GF !!
Gues what already nerfed after 3 week.
Isn't it better to just make Freeze break on damage again?
The primary reason for getting away from this is that it makes CC wildly unpredictable and entirely worthless on a bigger target (who is controllable) but is under fire as it would break instantly. That in general feels really bad.
As a general principle it is in most cases better to have consistent output who is affected by timing rather than variable output that relies on outside factors for systems like this. Remember that this is not by its nature a "long fragile CC" similar to sleep. If it were holding a target for 45 seconds or some other long period it would make sense. Diminishing returns on stuns like this are generally the right way to go, but the challenges of a true DR system on a series of stuns whose durations are not all equal are fairly complex and challenging. Given that making freeze itself operate on a more binary system of "Immune/Not Immune" moves much closer to that goal of letting a single Wizard be a powerful force for controlling foes without letting stacking them be awesome all the time. Two wizards will have to work together to make sure they don't waste their freezing potential under this system, and one wizard can still provide a substantial amount of control by spreading freezes. This just prevents it from being "permanent".
Breaking on damage is a difficult thing to balance because in most cases falls into one of two categories. 1) So easy to break that the CC becomes difficult to notice and provides little benefit beyond an interrupt and 2)So hard to break that it basically operates as if there were no way to break it in normal gameplay.
Rather than try and balance these two situations and make it feel good across all possible gear levels, it is far simpler to understand that after a foe has been frozen they cant be frozen again for several seconds. This provides a clear and consistent behavior to all wizards, regardless of their gear. And making the duration of this immunity not literally scale on the CC duration means that wizards who devote themselves to CC can still get higher uptime on their CC than other Wizards without locking out all gameplay.
I just feel like freeze doesn't need to be a hard CC at all, but rather a thing that proc's CC from Oppressor's Shatter Strike (which still overlaps with freeze itself, wasting much of it's CC potential) while still providing a meaningful slow and occasional AoE interrupt for damage dealing wizards.
I just don't feel like anyone is going to slot Orb of Imposition and go for tons of Control Bonus in order to freeze things longer when, by it's very nature, you can not control Chill or Freeze with multiple wizards. It is, as you say, completely unpredictable and uncontrollable.
This is exacerbated by the Chill applying powers being the bread and butter of the DPS wizards which essentially means if there is a DPS wizard and a Control Wizard in a group together they are going to both apply chill non-stop. How are we supposed to get around this in PUG groups let alone in preplanned groups? Are damage wizards supposed to just ignore CoI/Icy Terrain and it's massive damage potential, or are Oppressor's supposed to just not take their capstone feat?
Essentially, adding a period of time where chill and freeze can't be applied doesn't seem to actually make anything more predictable it just makes control a fairly unappealing option unless an even bigger rework to chill and freeze removes those effects entirely from your standard 'damage' setup.
Either way, I really appreciate you taking the time to let us know what you guys are planning.
I understand now.
If that matters, I really liked the way Freeze was before Mod 4. It felt like it was right because it could proc from an at-will, so it wasn't supposed to be a good long CC; just an interrupt that you could use whenever you wanted. It was good to make a target Freeze to make sure it couldn't avoid the encounter combo I was about to land... and just for that. It felt like an intelligent use of a small CC provided by an at-will.
But I understand that, in your PoV, Freeze isn't supposed to act like Sleep. And yea, DRs would be really good.
It's wasting points.
Finally got my computer up and running so looking around the forums for things I have missed...
And this is a gem.
Thank you Crush. I don't mind CW's having more CC but PvP was not fun sitting in an icecube nonstop. Glad this is being looked into.
Says chill isn't everything. Double stacks chill for freeze. That's amusing.
The best dailies in the game are all Arcane for CW, so there's that. Keep in mind Oppressive Force, which hits infinite targets, takes advantage of those AM stacks and can crit when timed with EotS. It's basically the best spell/combo in the game and is used by basically everyone that speed nukes through CN. That 10% damage nerf isn't even noticeable to me. It can still hit for a cool million plus per cast and apparently that is absolutely fine with everyone.
independent of a control freak, there is a point that is crucial here for pve.
you can search any cn run on youtube . the biggest problem right now is the combo Oppressive Force +steal time. letme explain.
Cw "x" teleport to the horde and spreads all enemies with daily. this time, he uses steal time, paralyzing them these extremes of the map. so they turn against the party, then the trap is ice on the ground.
the old burst damage was problematic because of the feets, but the focus of the cw was frontal damage. singularity + shard. this control "logistc" is important to all party.
This spreading/paralyze effect (freeze is a secondary problem) need to eversed. or, at least, opressive force need to lose this spreading effect.
this nerf in chill dont help in nothing if this rotation dont change.
However, I understand the problem that the current freeze mechanic presents in both PvE and PvP. Essentially you want to lengthen the cool down on Freeze, and I could get behind this change more so if Oppressors are hit less by it since they should have their control, in my opinion, and their capstone revolves entirely around Freeze.
twitch.tv/ezracw | absolutegaming.guildportal.com
#BringBackShard | M5 CW Bug List | My M3 PvP Gameplay
lolwat?
I think you got the modes inverted buddy.
OT: Seriously, how hard is it to put:
Oppressor: THE CONTROLLER, the only one that ACTUALLY CONTROLLS WELL and can lock down people, right now a Rene or Thaum pratically does the same thing.. almost.
Thaum: Should be the striker/damage dealer using DoT/Chill
Renegade: Should be the massive critter who specializes IN ARCANE SPELLS, Arcane buffs should get super-buffed in this tree.
Ta-da..! You have 3 different feat trees now.
No class should have perma control on a player, there should always be a way out or an opening to escape.
If other class mechanics worked properly this wouldn't be a problem, but bugs are making it worse.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Two Artifact Weapons
Blighting Power Feat
Bitter Cold Feat
Chilling Control Feat
Cold Infusion Feat
Glacial Movement Feat
Alacrity Feat
Change also represents a pretty significant nerf to the Shatter Strike Capstone.
It basically guts the Oppressor tree, and we're back to Thaumaturge being, without a doubt, the one tree to rule them all for CW's.