This is the asinine troll post that inhibits experimentation. Always someone that has to pontificate about the above. WHO CARES? PVP is 5 on 5 ... not 1 on 1. You win because you incorporate strategy and teamwork, not who can kill who in a deathmatch. In fact, although I don't have any ambition to PVP at highest level, I am sure there is a meta that most guilds stick to. However, I'd be interested in seeing removing the TR from his traditional backcap role simply because a combat HR does it better. Move the WK TR to 2 and 1 in support and debuff. Who knows? The issue is no one has bothered to explore a WK far enough to experiment. Seems to me that some guy experimenting with an alternative build and making page 8 of the leaderboard at a time when other classes have been significantly buffed says quite a bit.
Kudos to you Pandora ... this is excellent stuff and I can't wait to look a little deeper when I have the time. I hope you make page 1!! One question ... why do you empty COS first? Would you not be better off hitting once with DiS to start the DOT and then dump?
That person had a 16K perma with rank 10s, and we have spent hours after hours of Preview Testing last module together, going back from WK to MI. Did 1v1 with her as WK, me as MI, then the other way around, a few MI vs MI, but the most fun part was our WK vs WK games. She could have said it more subtly, but what she say is true.
Point being,
I must agree that MI is stronger, but **** I covet Disheartening Strike!
They just stood there... neither of them used Steal time or Icy Terrain. What will you have done if they did though? I could imagine a rotation: ST > Plague Fire; Ray of Frost from both of them and with no CC break... They could kill you with one round of Assailing Force. Nice build tho. Glad to see some Whisperknife action at least.
I would have been more careful in that case. They were complete sh*t which is why I was playing careless and used Impact Shot.
If Steal time and Icy are used. All I have to do is to stay at distance. Icy terrain isn't thorn ward, it's pretty small. ST's blast isn't big as well. A node is bigger than people think. IF I get caught in a steal time which happens soemtimes, I just smoke bomb and re-stealth. If I run into a decent CW I'll record it.
I was wondering the same thing about those CW's. But I am confident that Pandora has the skill to dodge roll out of a Steal Time and adjust and react. Icy Terrain is easy to avoid as WK.
Was surprised neither of them tried anything, not even laying down a simple Storm Pillar. (Why CW's still don't use this for stealth detection is beyond me, especially now when all you need for a damage at will is RoF - oh well I am not about to explain to bad CW's with easy builds how to be good)
This just shows you how lacking in knowledge a lot of current CW's are (curse FotM bull****) about how to use their class and when to swap out spells within a match.
If it boiled down to it and he needed to he could have used his IS to stun one and HK the other and get back in to stealth quick since he had his daily up. Since during HK after you get to target during the rest of the animation your are Immune to CC, it works quite well in a 2v1 situation to use it like this.
But as with every and any build, you can't win them all. There is always an answer to what you are doing and what your enemy is doing. If those CW's were both Using Steal Time and perhaps Shard or any AoE that doesn't need a target to use it would have been a much more difficult fight. Luckily which ever class is the current FotM is populated by people who don't know how to think, and it is easy to outplay them.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
I was wondering the same thing about those CW's. But I am confident that Pandora has the skill to dodge roll out of a Steal Time and adjust and react. Icy Terrain is easy to avoid as WK.
Was surprised neither of them tried anything, not even laying down a simple Storm Pillar. (Why CW's still don't use this for stealth detection is beyond me, especially now when all you need for a damage at will is RoF - oh well I am not about to explain to bad CW's with easy builds how to be good)
This just shows you how lacking in knowledge a lot of current CW's are (curse FotM bull****) about how to use their class and when to swap out spells within a match.
If it boiled down to it and he needed to he could have used his IS to stun one and HK the other and get back in to stealth quick since he had his daily up. Since during HK after you get to target during the rest of the animation your are Immune to CC, it works quite well in a 2v1 situation to use it like this.
But as with every and any build, you can't win them all. There is always an answer to what you are doing and what your enemy is doing. If those CW's were both Using Steal Time and perhaps Shard or any AoE that doesn't need a target to use it would have been a much more difficult fight. Luckily which ever class is the current FotM is populated by people who don't know how to think, and it is easy to outplay them.
FotM CW is a lot easier to deal with than the M3 GWF. At least if you outplay the CW now, you snap them like a twig. The GWF were more of a steel rod and hits like lightning.
FotM CW is a lot easier to deal with than the M3 GWF. At least if you outplay the CW now, you snap them like a twig. The GWF were more of a steel rod and hits like lightning.
Oh I agree 100%. Mod 3 GWF was just a bad joke to PVP. It is easy to make the fotm CW break under pressure and fall apart ending in their death. GWF just had to land roar or FLS followed by another CC and an IBS and it was lights out. All the while they were able to take all sorts of damage with out even caring.
Mod 3 GWFs are now playing Mod 4 CWs, guaranteed.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
0
chestnut13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 176Arc User
That person had a 16K perma with rank 10s, and we have spent hours after hours of Preview Testing last module together, going back from WK to MI. Did 1v1 with her as WK, me as MI, then the other way around, a few MI vs MI, but the most fun part was our WK vs WK games. She could have said it more subtly, but what she say is true.
Point being,
I must agree that MI is stronger, but **** I covet Disheartening Strike!
Yeah don't worry ... I covet ITC.
This issue isn't how good anyone is or how high their enchants are .... I've PVP'd with the best TRs on the board on my side or against. A really good MI is devastating ... but I believe so is a really good WK. My point is that this always degenerates into MI>WK and it's always pitted as a 1v1. It's irrelevant in a 1v1 situation. The real worth of any build is the synergy it will have with other team mates. MI is proven, there can be no doubting that. To simply dismiss another build because you are sure your build is better is a bit naive. I think that Pandora has found a build that has tremendous potential. Let's let it play out and see.
I empty CoS first because of its massive damage and due to the fact that Disheartening Strike is unlimited unlike CoS. So I empty them first and let them recharge while I spam Disheartening Strike, then once at least 4-5 charges are back I attack again with the CoS barrage.
Thank you for the wishes btw. I'll try to represent WK TR's... I hope I make it ^^
■ Should do it the other way around.
■ In terms of stealth rotation, you should always proceed in the alernating order of SS→BnS→SS, rather than... and not BnS→SS→BnS. Assuming you couldn't dodge enough and Dazzling Blades fail to proc, the former rotation guaranees one more refreshed stealth duration, than latter. SS→BnS→SS allows a total of 4 consecutive stealth durations including he first entered with [TAB], BnS→SS stops at 3.
■ There's another reason to go SS→BnS→SS, rather than use BnS first. Most people with dodge/teleport mechanics start doing it the moment they feel a stream of CoS knives are coming in. Just a bit of bad luck and your opponent may dodge at least 4~5 CoS shots. If you throw it in longer intervals to prevent them from dodging, then the CoS stacking bonus suffers.
SS has a brief daze component when thrown from stealth, and this is why your first stealth rotation begins with SS, particularly for WK permas. MIs don't have a secondary ranged attack, so they'll just open up any time they want. WKs are different.
■ For WK permas, the most ideal scenario is that you spend the 9 seconds of your first stealth with repeated DHS shots until you get a crit. Then, you time your stealth refreshment so that you land the SS at close range, and then get to dump at least 5~6 CoS shots guaranteed while they are briefly dazed and cannot dodge, and within 20' distance for Dagger Threat bonus. Even better, if you have any wep enchantment that procs with encounters. Since permas hardly use offensive encounters, the 20 second intervals of wep enchantments such as Bronzewood may be timed and exloited with SS
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The reason I do it my own way is because I do not trust Shadow Strike. It doesn't work sometimes, goes on a BS cooldown and not refilling your stealth.
This issue isn't how good anyone is or how high their enchants are .... I've PVP'd with the best TRs on the board on my side or against. A really good MI is devastating ... but I believe so is a really good WK. My point is that this always degenerates into MI>WK and it's always pitted as a 1v1. It's irrelevant in a 1v1 situation. The real worth of any build is the synergy it will have with other team mates. MI is proven, there can be no doubting that. To simply dismiss another build because you are sure your build is better is a bit naive. I think that Pandora has found a build that has tremendous potential. Let's let it play out and see.
I've always thought perma was the way for WK to be viable in PvP, and in one thread I posted before I noted that, perma can be made a WK specific synergy because everything about these two just fits! It's hands down going to be the WK perma that beats an MI perma. How do I know? Well, back in my WK days I playtested this with an equally geared and skilled guildie. It's simply that, PotB, BnS, SS is a stronger rotation than ITC, SS, PotB, besides the fact that DS is also better than DF.
On the other hand, my deflect-reflect build is a perfect counter for Pandora's WK perma. I now use Blue Dragon Glyphs coupled with my ITC Fey Thistle. Post-nerf, even with internal cooldown, these Glyphs tick for every second your Disheartening Strike would bleed. And including Path of the Blades, I have all the unstealthing tool I need. Understand that I do not say this to brag, but simply to give you realistic situations so you can better adapt.
I've always thought perma was the way for WK to be viable in PvP, and in one thread I posted before I noted that, perma can be made a WK specific synergy because everything about these two just fits! It's hands down going to be the WK perma that beats an MI perma. How do I know? Well, back in my WK days I playtested this with an equally geared and skilled guildie. It's simply that, PotB, BnS, SS is a stronger rotation than ITC, SS, PotB, besides the fact that DS is also better than DF.
On the other hand, my deflect-reflect build is a perfect counter for Pandora's WK perma. I now use Blue Dragon Glyphs coupled with my ITC Fey Thistle. Post-nerf, even with internal cooldown, these Glyphs tick for every second your Disheartening Strike would bleed. And including Path of the Blades, I have all the unstealthing tool I need. Understand that I do not say this to brag, but simply to give you realistic situations so you can better adapt.
I am glad you at least acknowledge PotB! I think it is an excellent encounter! Some people seem to think it only hits one NPC, but I use it all the time - it hits multiple targets - I watch the smaller mobs die all around me as I attack other targets after using PotB.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
I am glad you at least acknowledge PotB! I think it is an excellent encounter! Some people seem to think it only hits one NPC, but I use it all the time - it hits multiple targets - I watch the smaller mobs die all around me as I attack other targets after using PotB.
It hits one target at a time. Can be deadly to sponge in 1v1.
I'm still confused about your view of PotB. When I use it (and I use it all the time), it appears to be hitting lots of NPCs at once - two or three of them will die from the blade bath when I am not even attacking them anymore. Even the description of the attack uses the word "enemies" (plural).
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
I'm still confused about your view of PotB. When I use it (and I use it all the time), it appears to be hitting lots of NPCs at once - two or three of them will die from the blade bath when I am not even attacking them anymore. Even the description of the attack uses the word "enemies" (plural).
at this point what i can say is to verify it by yourself on the dummies at the trade of blades, don't use it from stealth so it's slower. (i suspect just a language incomprehension)
This is untrue. It hits multiple targets. Go to Sharandar and do the Pied Piper thing through multiple Powrie groups. Stop, hit PotB. No more Powries.
I think it hits one target at a time but not always the same target. So used on a group a random mob will get damaged each tick. That will clear the whole spawn over the duration of the power, and they may all die at roughly the same time, but the damage is applied to a single mob on each tick.
We share musical tastes i liked the songs you used on the video, specially lykke li
At first i was looking at Rust's guide, but after looking at this i think i'll try WK, they seem to be pretty funny, and gives a new definition of "trickster" :rolleyes:
Not that Rust's guide isn't good!! It is a very interesting guide too ofc, but that Black Ice Gloves thing makes me doubt, i'm not really sure that i'll be able to get them at least in a short term
Thank you for the guide OP it helped this newb (same to Rust)
On the other hand, my deflect-reflect build is a perfect counter for Pandora's WK perma. I now use Blue Dragon Glyphs coupled with my ITC Fey Thistle. Post-nerf, even with internal cooldown, these Glyphs tick for every second your Disheartening Strike would bleed. And including Path of the Blades, I have all the unstealthing tool I need. Understand that I do not say this to brag, but simply to give you realistic situations so you can better adapt.
I've met quite a few "Reflectors.." (Especially GF's) that thing is very, very annoying.
What do I do? Simply not attack..and run around the node in perma mode and statemale forever.
PS: I don't use PoB. Skilless undodgeable AOE.. no thanks lol. (No offense to PoB lovers, but I find it cheap only use it when there's another rogue using it that wants to contest me).
We share musical tastes i liked the songs you used on the video, specially lykke li
At first i was looking at Rust's guide, but after looking at this i think i'll try WK, they seem to be pretty funny, and gives a new definition of "trickster" :rolleyes:
Not that Rust's guide isn't good!! It is a very interesting guide too ofc, but that Black Ice Gloves thing makes me doubt, i'm not really sure that i'll be able to get them at least in a short term
Thank you for the guide OP it helped this newb (same to Rust)
@gorrinaco Weeks ago I went about exploring a Profound or WK version of my build, but I ultimately dropped the idea. I only wanted to inspire confidence in diversity. Pandora helps me in that cause.
Black Ice gear requires a lot of commitment to farm and even more so are my boons. I also don't want everybody running around with my spec because that defeats the purpose! For the more casual playerbase, Pandora's WK perma gets the stamp of my approval.
It hits one target at a time. It hits 20 times over 10 seconds. Now enough of this nonesense!
Pandora's WK perma gets the stamp of my approval.
Perhaps I did not word it correctly, but PotB hits multiple targets ... just not all at once. This is why it is an underated encounter, particularly when used by a WK who takes a support role on nodes with multiple toons contesting. When combined with the DOT and debuff of DiS spam, it makes a powerful combo as it weakens multiple enemies allowing teamates to put them away.
PS: I don't use PoB. Skilless undodgeable AOE.. no thanks lol. (No offense to PoB lovers, but I find it cheap only use it when there's another rogue using it that wants to contest me).
I dislike MI permas by principle. They force my hand on PotB. Actually, I don't need this unless the other TR uses it on me. I rather like my Impact Shots.
guidogoombaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 26Arc User
edited August 2014
I am not sure I completely agree with you. When contesting a node, remember, you, as a WK, DO NOT have to be on the node to contest it. You can throw knives all day and practically no one, even the MI TR, will find you if you are a perma-stealth WK (and if you keep the rotation tight and do not get too cocky or greedy with the kills). On a PUG team, I pummeled other TR's in pre-mades, and made GWF's and CW's scream that it was not fair that I fight in stealth. My only reply is "All is fair in PvP."
Mind you, I use a different build than the one listed here. I use kweassa's build and have found that to be absolutely awesome. I use Profound Executioner's Armor instead of the armor you have. Really, as long as we are getting the additional 30% on stealth meter, we are good to go.
I will try your build, pandora1x, with my Tiefling TR I am building. The foundation for that build is focused on INT and DEX, and the CHA is already high (all three, DEX, INT and CHA, will be around 20/21 at level 60, which makes a nice balanced character). We shall see how it goes.
Thanks for sharing your build, and best of luck to you and all who use your build.
16K Whisperknife TR - Sangre 16K Master Infiltrator TR - Shadowshiv
15K Iron Vanguard Sentinel GWF - Viktor Kurgan
13K Control Wizard - Selene
See you all on the battlegrounds! :cool:
0
guidogoombaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 26Arc User
edited August 2014
HEAR, HEAR FOR IMPACT SHOT! Most TR's I run across still use Lashing Blade, which is cool for that close to one-shot kill. Tell you the truth, I would rather pop out of stealth and hit FOUR Impact Shots at a character. The stun alone is great! That Impact Shot barrage you start just before your stealth meter runs out usually makes your target disappear, especially if they all crit.
I love Impact Shot, and seldom do I change it. If I do, I will use Smoke Bomb for the CYA factor.
16K Whisperknife TR - Sangre 16K Master Infiltrator TR - Shadowshiv
15K Iron Vanguard Sentinel GWF - Viktor Kurgan
13K Control Wizard - Selene
See you all on the battlegrounds! :cool:
0
guidogoombaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 26Arc User
i see no point in puting points in char
its only 4 deflect and 0,5% more dmg in stealth
out of stealth u a dead anyway
I believe this is why pandora1x was endorsing using Soulforged and the Bloodcrystal Raven Skull as your artifact. I don't have the Skull, but I do have Perfect Soulforged, and that has saved my bacon plenty of times.
16K Whisperknife TR - Sangre 16K Master Infiltrator TR - Shadowshiv
15K Iron Vanguard Sentinel GWF - Viktor Kurgan
13K Control Wizard - Selene
See you all on the battlegrounds! :cool:
0
guidogoombaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 26Arc User
■ In terms of stealth rotation, you should always proceed in the alernating order of SS→BnS→SS, rather than... and not BnS→SS→BnS. Assuming you couldn't dodge enough and Dazzling Blades fail to proc, the former rotation guaranees one more refreshed stealth duration, than latter. SS→BnS→SS allows a total of 4 consecutive stealth durations including he first entered with [TAB], BnS→SS stops at 3.
■ There's another reason to go SS→BnS→SS, rather than use BnS first. Most people with dodge/teleport mechanics start doing it the moment they feel a stream of CoS knives are coming in. Just a bit of bad luck and your opponent may dodge at least 4~5 CoS shots. If you throw it in longer intervals to prevent them from dodging, then the CoS stacking bonus suffers.
SS has a brief daze component when thrown from stealth, and this is why your first stealth rotation begins with SS, particularly for WK permas. MIs don't have a secondary ranged attack, so they'll just open up any time they want. WKs are different.
■ For WK permas, the most ideal scenario is that you spend the 9 seconds of your first stealth with repeated DHS shots until you get a crit. Then, you time your stealth refreshment so that you land the SS at close range, and then get to dump at least 5~6 CoS shots guaranteed while they are briefly dazed and cannot dodge, and within 20' distance for Dagger Threat bonus. Even better, if you have any wep enchantment that procs with encounters. Since permas hardly use offensive encounters, the 20 second intervals of wep enchantments such as Bronzewood may be timed and exloited with SS
Kweassa, I use the WK build you showed us all on my current Level 60 WK TR, and it really hits hard. Cloud of Steel can decimate squishy characters for sure, and most CW's and TR's in my experience. Pandora1x's build seems really great as well; although I have never tried it, I will experiment with that build on the Tiefling WK TR I am building now and see how it compares.
THank you both for opening our eyes to the WK world. I see more and more PvP'ers playing WK's now and it is really great!
16K Whisperknife TR - Sangre 16K Master Infiltrator TR - Shadowshiv
15K Iron Vanguard Sentinel GWF - Viktor Kurgan
13K Control Wizard - Selene
After a bit of experimentation, I'd suggest going human with this method of WK-permacraft.
Generally all WK-perma builds are similar in one way or another and pretty much close to the "All-Ranged WK Build" I've disclosed to the public a few months back -- although I in no way take credit for it since a ranged-oriented TR build, particularly for WKs, were around long before that, despite the fact that most people were neither aware, nor those who were, interested in it, for a variety of reasons.
The emphasis with WK-permas have inevitably shifted to "100% Total Invisibility", rather than "maximize ranged damage", which at that time, was usually what set it apart from the MI-permas. Understandable -- since the buffing of CWs even a fraction of a moment where you are caught by any CC, and you're dead within seconds.
Hence, the largest difference with the old-style "all-ranged WKs" and this build, would be that:
(1) This build is far superior in general survivability (2) This build suffers quite a bit in the downgrading of damage, due to feats centered on survival
It is in this case the Human race trait of 3 extra feat points means a lot -- particularly when invested into Scoundrel Training -- 3/6/9% more damage to your at-wills (!!). And it just so turns out DHS(DisHearteningStrike) is one of the most potent at-wills a TR has, and benefits the most from percentage increase in damage output.
Especially when WK permas can benefit from both Mocking Knave, that's a total of 19% boost to base damage of your CoS, not counting the extra 2.5% damage increase to default stack effect... When Dagger Threat is added onto this, your CoS shots will do a total of 34% more damage than MIs can hope for with CoS.
Add in the effect of Vorpal enchantments and there you have it -- the secret to melting down average grade CWs (even mod4 CWs) around 25~30k hp down to less than 30% HP within 10 seconds with CoS alone, not even counting the effects of DHS. Your CoS, on crit, will do 159% of base damage. That's almost 2.6 times stronger than usual (although a certain portion of damage will be subtracted from it due to Tenacity effects suppressing a certain amount of crit severity).
Truly, for Whisper"knives", even CoS shots are quite potent material. This, is the reason why I strongly recommend that one must do the stealth rotations in the order of SS→BnS→SS, rather than firing off CoS stacks and then continuing stealth with BnS.
■ First [Tab] stealth, you use only DHS to land as many shots against enemies around you
■ This not only deals DHS damage to ALL the targets in the area, it also peels off any shielding such as Barkshield or CW shields
■ When first stealth is about to go, position yourself close to your target, and then land SS to refresh stealth + daze
■ That 2 or so seconds of dazed moment, is the moment where a WK-perma can inflict absolutely the most highest amount of damage spiking, ever. You are within 20' of the enemy which applies Dagger Threat, and you land unobstructed straight stream of CoS without the enemy being able to dodge any of it, at least upto 5~6 strikes
■ Now, from this point on, try counting the recharge time within your head. 8 shots of CoS take 24 seconds to fully replenish.
→ First [Tab] Stealth
→ SS, refresh → CoS stack-shots against the dazed → CoS depleted
→ 9 seconds for 2nd stealth
→ Dodge rolls extend stealth duration around 2 seconds
→ BnS, refresh
→ 9 seconds for 2nd stealth
→ Dodge rolls extend stealth duration around 2 seconds
...how much time has past up to now? That's 22 seconds. By the time you are ready to use another SS shot to refresh (and hence, inflict another dazed moment), your CoS is around 7 charges ready.
This is the ideal attack timed/rotation, and another reason why I recommend this particular rotation, instead of just opening up with CoS and starting stealth extensio with BnS.
...
Under the above premise, I would recommend Human race.
In addition to the extra feats, in the case of Pandora's method of WK-perma, there is NO downside at all, for using a Human. WKs are dead if they get caught anyway. 10% CC resistance, or 3% higher deflection chance, none of these things matter. The goal of a WK-perma is to be truly perma, and just annoy the hell out of tanks, and knife the squishier ones from places afar. They can try the "Steal Time + Bilethorn" shi* or anything, since WKs don't go into close range anyway. We don't use DF. Hence, we don't need the distance. If things look dangerous, we can just give up Dagger Threat and still pucker the enemy infinitely from a distance well outside of AoE reach.
The feat choices would be as following - slight augmentation from Pandora's original:
...basically it's a total Saboteuer-Scoundrel-Executioner hybrid, solely specialized in throwing knives and getting the most benefit out of everything.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Comments
That person had a 16K perma with rank 10s, and we have spent hours after hours of Preview Testing last module together, going back from WK to MI. Did 1v1 with her as WK, me as MI, then the other way around, a few MI vs MI, but the most fun part was our WK vs WK games. She could have said it more subtly, but what she say is true.
Point being,
I must agree that MI is stronger, but **** I covet Disheartening Strike!
I would have been more careful in that case. They were complete sh*t which is why I was playing careless and used Impact Shot.
If Steal time and Icy are used. All I have to do is to stay at distance. Icy terrain isn't thorn ward, it's pretty small. ST's blast isn't big as well. A node is bigger than people think. IF I get caught in a steal time which happens soemtimes, I just smoke bomb and re-stealth. If I run into a decent CW I'll record it.
&Thanks
Was surprised neither of them tried anything, not even laying down a simple Storm Pillar. (Why CW's still don't use this for stealth detection is beyond me, especially now when all you need for a damage at will is RoF - oh well I am not about to explain to bad CW's with easy builds how to be good)
This just shows you how lacking in knowledge a lot of current CW's are (curse FotM bull****) about how to use their class and when to swap out spells within a match.
If it boiled down to it and he needed to he could have used his IS to stun one and HK the other and get back in to stealth quick since he had his daily up. Since during HK after you get to target during the rest of the animation your are Immune to CC, it works quite well in a 2v1 situation to use it like this.
But as with every and any build, you can't win them all. There is always an answer to what you are doing and what your enemy is doing. If those CW's were both Using Steal Time and perhaps Shard or any AoE that doesn't need a target to use it would have been a much more difficult fight. Luckily which ever class is the current FotM is populated by people who don't know how to think, and it is easy to outplay them.
PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
FotM CW is a lot easier to deal with than the M3 GWF. At least if you outplay the CW now, you snap them like a twig. The GWF were more of a steel rod and hits like lightning.
Oh I agree 100%. Mod 3 GWF was just a bad joke to PVP. It is easy to make the fotm CW break under pressure and fall apart ending in their death. GWF just had to land roar or FLS followed by another CC and an IBS and it was lights out. All the while they were able to take all sorts of damage with out even caring.
Mod 3 GWFs are now playing Mod 4 CWs, guaranteed.
PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
Yeah don't worry ... I covet ITC.
This issue isn't how good anyone is or how high their enchants are .... I've PVP'd with the best TRs on the board on my side or against. A really good MI is devastating ... but I believe so is a really good WK. My point is that this always degenerates into MI>WK and it's always pitted as a 1v1. It's irrelevant in a 1v1 situation. The real worth of any build is the synergy it will have with other team mates. MI is proven, there can be no doubting that. To simply dismiss another build because you are sure your build is better is a bit naive. I think that Pandora has found a build that has tremendous potential. Let's let it play out and see.
■ Should do it the other way around.
■ In terms of stealth rotation, you should always proceed in the alernating order of SS→BnS→SS, rather than... and not BnS→SS→BnS. Assuming you couldn't dodge enough and Dazzling Blades fail to proc, the former rotation guaranees one more refreshed stealth duration, than latter. SS→BnS→SS allows a total of 4 consecutive stealth durations including he first entered with [TAB], BnS→SS stops at 3.
■ There's another reason to go SS→BnS→SS, rather than use BnS first. Most people with dodge/teleport mechanics start doing it the moment they feel a stream of CoS knives are coming in. Just a bit of bad luck and your opponent may dodge at least 4~5 CoS shots. If you throw it in longer intervals to prevent them from dodging, then the CoS stacking bonus suffers.
SS has a brief daze component when thrown from stealth, and this is why your first stealth rotation begins with SS, particularly for WK permas. MIs don't have a secondary ranged attack, so they'll just open up any time they want. WKs are different.
■ For WK permas, the most ideal scenario is that you spend the 9 seconds of your first stealth with repeated DHS shots until you get a crit. Then, you time your stealth refreshment so that you land the SS at close range, and then get to dump at least 5~6 CoS shots guaranteed while they are briefly dazed and cannot dodge, and within 20' distance for Dagger Threat bonus. Even better, if you have any wep enchantment that procs with encounters. Since permas hardly use offensive encounters, the 20 second intervals of wep enchantments such as Bronzewood may be timed and exloited with SS
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I've always thought perma was the way for WK to be viable in PvP, and in one thread I posted before I noted that, perma can be made a WK specific synergy because everything about these two just fits! It's hands down going to be the WK perma that beats an MI perma. How do I know? Well, back in my WK days I playtested this with an equally geared and skilled guildie. It's simply that, PotB, BnS, SS is a stronger rotation than ITC, SS, PotB, besides the fact that DS is also better than DF.
On the other hand, my deflect-reflect build is a perfect counter for Pandora's WK perma. I now use Blue Dragon Glyphs coupled with my ITC Fey Thistle. Post-nerf, even with internal cooldown, these Glyphs tick for every second your Disheartening Strike would bleed. And including Path of the Blades, I have all the unstealthing tool I need. Understand that I do not say this to brag, but simply to give you realistic situations so you can better adapt.
I am glad you at least acknowledge PotB! I think it is an excellent encounter! Some people seem to think it only hits one NPC, but I use it all the time - it hits multiple targets - I watch the smaller mobs die all around me as I attack other targets after using PotB.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
It hits one target at a time. Can be deadly to sponge in 1v1.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
at this point what i can say is to verify it by yourself on the dummies at the trade of blades, don't use it from stealth so it's slower. (i suspect just a language incomprehension)
its only 4 deflect and 0,5% more dmg in stealth
out of stealth u a dead anyway
This is untrue. It hits multiple targets. Go to Sharandar and do the Pied Piper thing through multiple Powrie groups. Stop, hit PotB. No more Powries.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
We share musical tastes
At first i was looking at Rust's guide, but after looking at this i think i'll try WK, they seem to be pretty funny, and gives a new definition of "trickster" :rolleyes:
Not that Rust's guide isn't good!! It is a very interesting guide too ofc, but that Black Ice Gloves thing makes me doubt, i'm not really sure that i'll be able to get them
Thank you for the guide OP
I've met quite a few "Reflectors.." (Especially GF's) that thing is very, very annoying.
What do I do? Simply not attack..and run around the node in perma mode and statemale forever.
PS: I don't use PoB. Skilless undodgeable AOE.. no thanks lol. (No offense to PoB lovers, but I find it cheap
Haha glad we share the same tastes.
Have fun with the WK, you're welcome.
It hits one target at a time. It hits 20 times over 10 seconds. Now enough of this nonesense!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWKFM3FTRn4
@gorrinaco Weeks ago I went about exploring a Profound or WK version of my build, but I ultimately dropped the idea. I only wanted to inspire confidence in diversity. Pandora helps me in that cause.
Black Ice gear requires a lot of commitment to farm and even more so are my boons. I also don't want everybody running around with my spec because that defeats the purpose! For the more casual playerbase, Pandora's WK perma gets the stamp of my approval.
^^^^^^^^^^^ has been my intention for ever.
Hate following "FoTM's"
I aint a sheep.
Perhaps I did not word it correctly, but PotB hits multiple targets ... just not all at once. This is why it is an underated encounter, particularly when used by a WK who takes a support role on nodes with multiple toons contesting. When combined with the DOT and debuff of DiS spam, it makes a powerful combo as it weakens multiple enemies allowing teamates to put them away.
I dislike MI permas by principle. They force my hand on PotB. Actually, I don't need this unless the other TR uses it on me. I rather like my Impact Shots.
Mind you, I use a different build than the one listed here. I use kweassa's build and have found that to be absolutely awesome. I use Profound Executioner's Armor instead of the armor you have. Really, as long as we are getting the additional 30% on stealth meter, we are good to go.
I will try your build, pandora1x, with my Tiefling TR I am building. The foundation for that build is focused on INT and DEX, and the CHA is already high (all three, DEX, INT and CHA, will be around 20/21 at level 60, which makes a nice balanced character). We shall see how it goes.
Thanks for sharing your build, and best of luck to you and all who use your build.
16K Master Infiltrator TR - Shadowshiv
15K Iron Vanguard Sentinel GWF - Viktor Kurgan
13K Control Wizard - Selene
See you all on the battlegrounds! :cool:
I love Impact Shot, and seldom do I change it. If I do, I will use Smoke Bomb for the CYA factor.
16K Master Infiltrator TR - Shadowshiv
15K Iron Vanguard Sentinel GWF - Viktor Kurgan
13K Control Wizard - Selene
See you all on the battlegrounds! :cool:
I believe this is why pandora1x was endorsing using Soulforged and the Bloodcrystal Raven Skull as your artifact. I don't have the Skull, but I do have Perfect Soulforged, and that has saved my bacon plenty of times.
16K Master Infiltrator TR - Shadowshiv
15K Iron Vanguard Sentinel GWF - Viktor Kurgan
13K Control Wizard - Selene
See you all on the battlegrounds! :cool:
Kweassa, I use the WK build you showed us all on my current Level 60 WK TR, and it really hits hard. Cloud of Steel can decimate squishy characters for sure, and most CW's and TR's in my experience. Pandora1x's build seems really great as well; although I have never tried it, I will experiment with that build on the Tiefling WK TR I am building now and see how it compares.
THank you both for opening our eyes to the WK world. I see more and more PvP'ers playing WK's now and it is really great!
16K Master Infiltrator TR - Shadowshiv
15K Iron Vanguard Sentinel GWF - Viktor Kurgan
13K Control Wizard - Selene
See you all on the battlegrounds! :cool:
Good thing about WK is that it's very unpredictable (:
Generally all WK-perma builds are similar in one way or another and pretty much close to the "All-Ranged WK Build" I've disclosed to the public a few months back -- although I in no way take credit for it since a ranged-oriented TR build, particularly for WKs, were around long before that, despite the fact that most people were neither aware, nor those who were, interested in it, for a variety of reasons.
The emphasis with WK-permas have inevitably shifted to "100% Total Invisibility", rather than "maximize ranged damage", which at that time, was usually what set it apart from the MI-permas. Understandable -- since the buffing of CWs even a fraction of a moment where you are caught by any CC, and you're dead within seconds.
Hence, the largest difference with the old-style "all-ranged WKs" and this build, would be that:
(1) This build is far superior in general survivability
(2) This build suffers quite a bit in the downgrading of damage, due to feats centered on survival
It is in this case the Human race trait of 3 extra feat points means a lot -- particularly when invested into Scoundrel Training -- 3/6/9% more damage to your at-wills (!!). And it just so turns out DHS(DisHearteningStrike) is one of the most potent at-wills a TR has, and benefits the most from percentage increase in damage output.
Especially when WK permas can benefit from both Mocking Knave, that's a total of 19% boost to base damage of your CoS, not counting the extra 2.5% damage increase to default stack effect... When Dagger Threat is added onto this, your CoS shots will do a total of 34% more damage than MIs can hope for with CoS.
Add in the effect of Vorpal enchantments and there you have it -- the secret to melting down average grade CWs (even mod4 CWs) around 25~30k hp down to less than 30% HP within 10 seconds with CoS alone, not even counting the effects of DHS. Your CoS, on crit, will do 159% of base damage. That's almost 2.6 times stronger than usual (although a certain portion of damage will be subtracted from it due to Tenacity effects suppressing a certain amount of crit severity).
Truly, for Whisper"knives", even CoS shots are quite potent material. This, is the reason why I strongly recommend that one must do the stealth rotations in the order of SS→BnS→SS, rather than firing off CoS stacks and then continuing stealth with BnS.
■ First [Tab] stealth, you use only DHS to land as many shots against enemies around you
■ This not only deals DHS damage to ALL the targets in the area, it also peels off any shielding such as Barkshield or CW shields
■ When first stealth is about to go, position yourself close to your target, and then land SS to refresh stealth + daze
■ That 2 or so seconds of dazed moment, is the moment where a WK-perma can inflict absolutely the most highest amount of damage spiking, ever. You are within 20' of the enemy which applies Dagger Threat, and you land unobstructed straight stream of CoS without the enemy being able to dodge any of it, at least upto 5~6 strikes
■ Now, from this point on, try counting the recharge time within your head. 8 shots of CoS take 24 seconds to fully replenish.
→ First [Tab] Stealth
→ SS, refresh → CoS stack-shots against the dazed → CoS depleted
→ 9 seconds for 2nd stealth
→ Dodge rolls extend stealth duration around 2 seconds
→ BnS, refresh
→ 9 seconds for 2nd stealth
→ Dodge rolls extend stealth duration around 2 seconds
...how much time has past up to now? That's 22 seconds. By the time you are ready to use another SS shot to refresh (and hence, inflict another dazed moment), your CoS is around 7 charges ready.
This is the ideal attack timed/rotation, and another reason why I recommend this particular rotation, instead of just opening up with CoS and starting stealth extensio with BnS.
...
Under the above premise, I would recommend Human race.
In addition to the extra feats, in the case of Pandora's method of WK-perma, there is NO downside at all, for using a Human. WKs are dead if they get caught anyway. 10% CC resistance, or 3% higher deflection chance, none of these things matter. The goal of a WK-perma is to be truly perma, and just annoy the hell out of tanks, and knife the squishier ones from places afar. They can try the "Steal Time + Bilethorn" shi* or anything, since WKs don't go into close range anyway. We don't use DF. Hence, we don't need the distance. If things look dangerous, we can just give up Dagger Threat and still pucker the enemy infinitely from a distance well outside of AoE reach.
The feat choices would be as following - slight augmentation from Pandora's original:
■ Heroic
→ Toughness (3/3)
→ Weapon Mastery (2/3)
→ Swift Footwork (5/5)
→ Twilight Adept (5/5)
→ Improved Cunning Sneak (5/5)
→ Scoundrel Training (3/3)
■ Paragon
Saboteuer
→ Speed Swindle (5/5)
→ Nimble Dodge (5/5)
→ Expert Sneak (3/5)
Scoundrel
→ Underhanded Tactics (5/5) ＊let's hope this feat gets fixed soon
→ Nimble Blade (5/5)
→ Mocking Knave (5/5)
Executioner
→ Dazzling Blades (3/5)
...basically it's a total Saboteuer-Scoundrel-Executioner hybrid, solely specialized in throwing knives and getting the most benefit out of everything.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'