ONLY Image 5 was me blocking..... We can argue any which way about it, but the fact of the matter is when your fighting 5 people, trying to hit someone across a map, and your expected to count how long a GF has been blocking (which can vary between 5-25 seconds BTW)
AND be at the RIGHT angle to be able to tell if the GF is just "in combat" and looks like one of the other 5 pictures above, OR is actually holding block....
Its pretty lame.
If GFs are asking for (and as they should) total CC frontal immunity - even from chill stacks too. Then its needs to be CRYSTAL clear if he is blocking or not.
ONLY Image 5 was me blocking..... We can argue any which way about it, but the fact of the matter is when your fighting 5 people, trying to hit someone across a map, and your expected to count how long a GF has been blocking (which can vary between 5-25 seconds BTW)
AND be at the RIGHT angle to be able to tell if the GF is just "in combat" and looks like one of the other 5 pictures above, OR is actually holding block....
Its pretty lame.
If GFs are asking for (and as they should) total CC frontal immunity - even from chill stacks too. Then its needs to be CRYSTAL clear if he is blocking or not.
Considering that GF isn't the only issue in mod 4 pvp, lets talk about them DC's and TR's
Tbh I think enabling righteousness on the new DC to work for itself would fix most of their issues however most of the real issues stem from their terrible feat Tree
As for TR, the way it is now either needs a 20-30% DPS increase and the ability to use black ice armor without giving up stealth bonus from true pvp sets
Actually, if we got a complete class re-work on par with what happened recently with other classes, I would probably enjoy it for the month or so that it takes them to see the issues and fix them. :P
Actually, if we got a complete class re-work on par with what happened recently with other classes, I would probably enjoy it for the month or so that it takes them to see the issues and fix them. :P
Yea I'm a bit scared to even mention rework.... We might not even have stealth when they're finished
It would indeed take an entire rework for TRs to lose permastealth. There is an entire paragon tree, several feats/class features/powers, and gearsets that all extend or enhance stealth duration and utility. Perma is the natural end result of these factors synergizing with each other, and I think that it is pretty much intended by the devs. If you were worried about stealth becoming very very long, then why make so many parts of the class extend stealth duration?
Further Stealth nerfs probably not gonna happen. The devs know that damage needs to get ticked back up slightly for PVE. Have faith/patience.
Knowing the devs, they will "Fix" perma stealth and buff worthless powers and nerf some others.
Oh, I don't know. CWs just needed some minor tweaking to increase their survival, but instead they got turned into even greater offensive powerhouses with great defense and the ability to for all intents and purposes lock something down for as long as it takes for it to die.
GFs were badly in need of some damage boosts and a block that worked. They got increased damage, a near limitless block. and an enchantment that couldn't have been tailored any better for them that meant death to anyone that had the temerity to try and attack them or anyone on their team.
Even the "nerf" to GWFs wasn't as bad as it could have been.
If this is their approach to TRs and DCs, then I'm all for it.
I'm not totally sure. Page 1 looks like a freaking rainbow compared to mod3.
Started playing my HR again and it's good. CW is obviously good. TR, GWF and GF are good too.
Only ones out of the loop are DCs and SWs, but DCs can still have a big impact on a game.
As it stands the balance for the top 3 classes exists as whoever gets the first hit off wins, which shouldn't be the case
The beautiful part of pre healing depression PvP is that nothing was a 1 lucky rotation wins , you literally had to outplay your opponent from step one till the finally HP left his bar, otherwise he'd have the opportunity to heal back up and turn the tides
Now PvP is like casting lots , circumstances are not in your favor and people get 1 glance on you and your in an unrecoverable state ( or based on the damage flying around atm , just dead....and God forbid your a tr or dc, because you have to Triple out work and outplay the other class to -maybe- drag down their HP to win, or not get caught out of your rotation -Just once- to stay alive.) this game isn't about calculated risk management anymore , it's not about out rotating the other PvP team and places your classes in the optimal nodes to win in what was known as out rotating your enemy. Now it's a race of whoever can clear their home node first and sweep the rest of the points to claim victory (which often means trs are forced to play sacrificial lamb for their team) and the dc is sent to hopefully get their in time to die instead and give the tr another precious few seconds of life.
I ask for the changes I do so - not because I want to butcher anything that is in the limelight (I asked for the class's in question to be fixed on the forums last module)but so that the game can be a place where intelligence is a factor of gameplay instead of a button-mash-my-class-is-more-OP-then-yours-fest
I think y'all are just doing too much damage. If everybody is one-shotting each other, or a split-second bit of lag on a cast is the difference between winning and losing, then there's your solution right there. Put a DR on power after like 4000 or something, and suddenly your matches are fun again.
I think y'all are just doing too much damage. If everybody is one-shotting each other, or a split-second bit of lag on a cast is the difference between winning and losing, then there's your solution right there. Put a DR on power after like 4000 or something, and suddenly your matches are fun again.
That's a bad idea because then you'd have nothing to stack to improve your character that wasn't subject to DR.
Plus most of what's killing people so quick isn't even affected by power.
I think y'all are just doing too much damage. If everybody is one-shotting each other, or a split-second bit of lag on a cast is the difference between winning and losing, then there's your solution right there. Put a DR on power after like 4000 or something, and suddenly your matches are fun again.
As stated above, it has nothing to do with power. All of the killing of people in 1 rotation of encounters comes from abilities/class features/ and feats.
Example:
Ray of frost hits 2-3K, which is innocent enough untill you add this.
5-10K Storm Spell proc
4-9K Assailing Force Proc
Now your looking at an at will that hits 11-22K potentially.
And another Example would be my Low Gear GF
Power: 2100
Crit: 600
Armor Pen: 1100
These are the only offensive stats my GF has, However with the Conqueror Tree, Bullcharge, Knights Challenge and Anvil of Doom
My Guardian Fighter can begin a Rotation with a 20K bullcharge, and then follow up with a Kill shot anvil of doom (Because he's below the HP level to turn on Anvils God Mode)
As you can see the damage dosent come from stats, the only thing stats are contributing too in terms of OP would be the easy availability of defensive stats and the lack of need to stack offensive ones because the gains are very lopsided
Right now any class that uses BI armor can achieve 50K HP (Which with the type of damage flying around, those Levels are pretty Necessary) while also having Enough Regen to put wolverine to shame coupled with "Incoming Healing Bonus", enough of which to almost completely counter-act Healing Depression, your looking at enough defensive stat points to SUPPOSEDLY last a while right? wrong.
The DPS output of a CW and HR Separately are capable of flooring that much HP in a matter of seconds (Regardless of Gear) because all of their DPS stems from their feat tree's as flat values. Also, as I demonstrated with my GF, he's able to realistically 1 rotation any average player (which I actually do on a daily basis).
Now this is where it becomes an issue. Average players are being Roflstomped by other average players who decided to take 10 minutes to learn how to build their class properly, and GREAT players are being ganked by what I like to call "Oops Damage" primarily caused by button mashing that results in huge unavoidable damage chunks that in a module prior to this one never have affected you.
Now when you scale everything up with Gear, then throw in the experience of a top end PvPer, this "oops Damage" becomes a guided force that literally decimates everything in its path
i.e Anything a Control wizard has any time to touch gets liquefied.
Hey all I'm saying is here is somebody in the Twilight Zone of stats saying that everyone is getting one-shotted. (or 1 rotationed, whatever)
It's just common sense to logically call that "too much damage". Does tenacity need to get buffed more then? If you don't want to mess with power then you can have tenacity to mitigate it and achieve the same end. Tenacity is already PVP only, so a buff to tenacity effects at the top end wouldnt hurt PVE at all.
Hey all I'm saying is here is somebody in the Twilight Zone of stats saying that everyone is getting one-shotted. (or 1 rotationed, whatever)
It's just common sense to logically call that "too much damage". Does tenacity need to get buffed more then? If you don't want to mess with power then you can have tenacity to mitigate it and achieve the same end. Tenacity is already PVP only, so a buff to tenacity effects at the top end wouldnt hurt PVE at all.
This being true theres a DPS gap Between A Warlock vs a CW per say
a tenacity buff would hurt the SW a hell of a lot more then the CW so their would need to be some counter buffing as well
to say the least its not mostly the dps thats the issue, but the gap between classes in DPS, and how large it is
and bringing the SW (as an example) or the TR up to the same level as a CW would not help anything because then we will just see more instant killing and less skill required.
This sounds like a worst-case scenario of your teammates not doing their job in turn. Why isn't one of your teammates destroying the CW (who still has less hit points and defensive stats) that's just hitting you with Ray of Frost and other stuff? Obviously, if two players get to gang up on one, the one should go down. And as things stand right now, pretty quickly too.
Not worst-case scenario,normal pvp.1 a lot of cw are going for the high ground and can't be hit by most melee.2 if your taking nod leaving it to kill one person will cost you.normal you stay on nod to take it and kill whos on it to take it.O why don't the hr or cw kill them?because there on the other side atking.(biggest prob. with range people,they will not fight on nod).3 tanks should be able to tank 2 people for some time not die in 2-3 sec (at less 20-30 sec,to buy time for team..thats there job)
It's not comparable. Unstoppable has a limited duration; when to block is entirely under the GF's control. It's possible to wait out Unstoppable and work around it. Of course, block has a limited duration now too, but most CW spells have long enough casting times that the GF can get block up.
The two move work some what alike or should.CC immune, resis dmg, and limited duration.there both for tanking and you can wait out block just like unstoppable.But with block Icy Rays and Ray of Frost get through it but not unstoppable.CW spells have long enough casting times? about the same time so who pops 1st wins.Gwf have control over Unstoppable.they pop it when it's need and waits for it to build back up just like block.
Sometimes team dynamics or compositions, or particular circumstances nevertheless force those situations. No class should be helpless against another on a node for that reason. I do think the GF should obviously have a big edge on a node, but the CW needs some tools too. Removing the ability to stack chill through block would just create similar issues CWs had with module 3 GWFs.
The problem here probably isn't the ability to deliver chill stacks through block, but the fact that Storm Spell allows the CW to do excessive damage. Ideally, that should be dialed back and CW damage tied to successfully delivering individual encounter spells, not jumping around waiting for stuff to proc. On the other side, GFs should have some kind of low-frequency cc breaker that they can potentially slot as a counter-move when facing lots of freezing.
Most part yes,but let let the cw have CC but take away the gf block?How is that even?gf low dmg cw high dmg not even add the CC and its over kill.A good cw knows how to get past block with out needing a cheap easy way.Block only block the way gf is facing,so a good cw just teleports behind and lands a CC.
Apart from getting in the CW's face and messing him up before they get frozen. Lunging Strike and Threatening Rush are good for that. That GFs also move faster while blocking now was actually also a nice boost in their ability to close in on CWs without getting cc-ed on the way.
Use Lunging Strike and Threatening Rush?Most of the time your CC by Ray of Frost before you can get it off now.Ray of Frost 80' Range,Lunging Strike 30'lunge,Icy Rays 80' Range ,Threatening Rush 30'Rush.But still if your luck and land it cw just teleports and contuse Ray of Frost.
I would agree that a better animation would be nice. Something akin to the circles that display when you flank a foe, allowing you to see very clearly when you are being blocked and not. Right now, it's sometimes too hard to tell, and latency issues can even make it a guessing game or even a game of pure luck.
umm shield up front , shield out to the side with sword out to side.can't get much easier then that lmao...well maybe if there was a big sign saying I'm not blocking.
This being true theres a DPS gap Between A Warlock vs a CW per say
a tenacity buff would hurt the SW a hell of a lot more then the CW so their would need to be some counter buffing as well
to say the least its not mostly the dps thats the issue, but the gap between classes in DPS, and how large it is
and bringing the SW (as an example) or the TR up to the same level as a CW would not help anything because then we will just see more instant killing and less skill required.
You see? This is nuts because all I've heard from the SWs is how catastrophically high their DPS vs single target is. I would imagine that at the Twilight Zone this would be even more pronounced. Oh well.
TRs will be doing some more damage soon. I don't know if they are going to selectively buff powers, rework some feats, or a combination of the two, but TRs are going to make it out of the darkness (so to speak). Everyone knows they are in a weird place in PVE right now. This will end up giving them more PVP power as a result. I'm interested to see what they decide to do with the TR, as that was my first class back in beta.
You see? This is nuts because all I've heard from the SWs is how catastrophically high their DPS vs single target is. I would imagine that at the Twilight Zone this would be even more pronounced. Oh well.
TRs will be doing some more damage soon. I don't know if they are going to selectively buff powers, rework some feats, or a combination of the two, but TRs are going to make it out of the darkness (so to speak). Everyone knows they are in a weird place in PVE right now. This will end up giving them more PVP power as a result. I'm interested to see what they decide to do with the TR, as that was my first class back in beta.
Here's the issue with TR at the moment.
For the longest time Cryptic has gone about, patch after patch, nerfing the possible DPS output of TR's... So any DPS increase by them will be a redundant measure of balance and they'd also encounter these issues
A) Increase Damage to much, and you have a new god class that will stay in stealth all the time (Which is only an issue for new players) and plague the current meta with very effective and guerilla-like tactics that will ultimately let it become the ultimate node holder again. However this again will lead to some unbalance, and like I mentioned before... out of any class, it seems like new players have a hard time adjust to the Rogues Stealth mechanic that seems to only exist in this game. Although it's easy to track a stealth rogue, and I have no sympathy for people who lack the capability to do so, I understand this represents a majority of people in our community and will most likely cause more drama then what its worth
Increase damage by a moderate amount and then you face the issue of a class that has not truly been fixed or brought to par with the rest of the meta for these reasons
1) At the moment, the rogue class currently has the least amount of obtainable defensive stats (without forsaking the stealth bonus, which beyond some radical beliefs, is a MUST for this modules meta) so if you only increase its damage by a moderate amount, you still have the issue where the TR can't keep up damage wise with any of its competition. If the above is true, you still have other classes much more suited to not being a sacrificial lamb and being used elsewhere in end meta PvP. As a class that can't fend for itself damage wise, there's no other option then to run. All the best guilds in the game currently forbid their TR's to even try to attack the assailants attempting to kill them because like I mentioned in an earlier post, doing so means a quicker death
C) so with the above two scenarios being an un-logical means of approaching the fix, the only way to keep TR alive as it is now and have it brought up to speed in this meta would be to do the following
1) Improve the stealth meter feat and allow it to stack for the stealth that the T2 PvP set normally gives. Then remove that stealth bonus from the T2 set and add something equally as beneficial, say more run speed instead.
2) Now that the TR is not locked into one gear set or die, TR's will be able to run Black Ice Sets and make up for the defensive stats that other classes are entitled too that TR Is not
3) 20-25% DPS increase with the resurgence of Impact Shot
Now I understand the implications of what I said, however I believe this is the only way to keep TR alive "AS IT IS" in the current meta with the perm stealth technique
the only other way to make the class completely viable would be a total re-work
As I've stated 3 times now, a regular wizards rotation doesn't include anything to deal with permastealth, we have to slot something extra. A perma like you with 18k gs would still eat me alive and we are in the same bracket. Just as you mentioned a GF cannot easily deal with a CW, we also cannot easily deal with them. It's not easy to stack 6 stacks of chill without being attacked.
Basically, when a wizard steps onto 2 as the only CW, which in random queue is quite frequent, he is not a killing force of nature. Most times I'm lucky to get a few shots off before I have to tuck tail, because I'm being attacked by 2 people or more. A GF can stay on cap a while cause he has a shield, TR has perma, and HR has mobility, healing, and chance to stack deflection. What does a CW have? The ability to hide behind his team mates. A CW not doing this risks certain dealth unless they are in the Twilight Zone of legendary artifacts and r10s stacked max hp built CWs.
What I'm trying to say is, HR is still better end game. I can never catch a HR with force choke unless he is caught unaware. They shoot with with their confusing ray and melee me down to low health very quickly. This combined with one of their teammates who run at me kamikaze style every time they see me anyway = death. HR isn't the only one who has an easy time killing me, GWF who know how to make me waste my dodges get IBS strikes that take almost half my health. Takedown takes another quarter. That doesn't give me much room or time to avoid death. TR I have to slot steal time and change my artifact to lantern or I'm probably going to face a slow death of perma stealth ( so if anyone else attacks before I change back, I'm dead), GF I would like to change CoI to mastery and slot icy terrain and chill strike. 1v1 GF eat me alive(I never get the chance to I die so fast). They always have unless I get lucky. The rotation I keep to kill other wizards and generally everything that comes charging is not ideal for dealing with everything individually.
Just remember, the queue generally places a CW on both sides. We both die easy and killing one another is our top priority unless there is a particularly nasty HR. We don't generally deal with backcapping, our place is on the front lines behind one of our team mates. We're like snakes, just as afraid of you as you are of it, in fact there isn't a class I'm not afraid of if they're played right.
So, I nearly quit on PvP all together last night. I'm still seriously considering it. It's simply become an un-fun game if you're not playing a couple of classes. I realize that there are people out there doing well regardless of the class they play, but the divide between classes has become so vast that it's not even a competition anymore. If you add in the bugs, and the poor matchmaking, it's just sad. I love the combat in Neverwinter. It's truly engaging and makes for very dynamic fights, but the current state of PvP doesn't allow any of that to be at the forefront. Case in point, I played 6 Dom matches last night before getting disgusted and calling it a night. In all I was 3 wins and 3 losses. On the surface that sounds just like it should be, right? Wrong!
Match #1: Got roflstomped. I rush to the enemy node to do my TR thang, and realize that my other four teammates went to our home base. Ugh. But I've seen that recovered before so I kill my target and sit waiting for the cap. The rest of my team gets crushed and 2 stop playing. Yes, after one death. By the time the rest of the enemy team rushes back and kills me, three of my teammates are sitting at the fire and one has "disconnected".
Match #2: Roflstomped the other team 1,000 to 0.
Match #3: SW on the opposing team. He dies, gets executed, soul puppet revives him, dies again, soul puppet revives and another spawns, etc. You get the picture. We go from a 200 point lead to losing the match simply because there are now 10 soul puppets in the match and he has become essentially invincible.
Match #4: Get the same SW on my team this time. Same thing, but working in our favor. However, one of our players can't handle the lag and leaves and the other two are DCs. It was a "close" match, but we lost. The SW had 40 kills.
Match #5: Roflstomped the other team 1,000 to 149.
Match #6: Roflstomped the other team 1,000 to 54.
If this was an aberration, I could handle it. But it's not. This is the state of PuGing Domination these days. Not a single one of those matches was fun in any sense of the term.
You do concider, that ELO, weak as it might be, does work worse now bc. of the reset.
Bc. of the mod 4 grind and me trying to unlock the artefact for my CW, I did no PvP with my GWF for the last two weeks. Now my 19,x PvP GWF has to crush his way to a decent place in ELO. I did two PvP matches and my team and the enemy seems to be at ~9k GS, most have no enchants, I got BI weapons and gear etc. no real challange there.
As I've stated 3 times now, a regular wizards rotation doesn't include anything to deal with permastealth, we have to slot something extra. A perma like you with 18k gs would still eat me alive and we are in the same bracket. Just as you mentioned a GF cannot easily deal with a CW, we also cannot easily deal with them. It's not easy to stack 6 stacks of chill without being attacked.
Basically, when a wizard steps onto 2 as the only CW, which in random queue is quite frequent, he is not a killing force of nature. Most times I'm lucky to get a few shots off before I have to tuck tail, because I'm being attacked by 2 people or more. A GF can stay on cap a while cause he has a shield, TR has perma, and HR has mobility, healing, and chance to stack deflection. What does a CW have? The ability to hide behind his team mates. A CW not doing this risks certain dealth unless they are in the Twilight Zone of legendary artifacts and r10s stacked max hp built CWs.
What I'm trying to say is, HR is still better end game. I can never catch a HR with force choke unless he is caught unaware. They shoot with with their confusing ray and melee me down to low health very quickly. This combined with one of their teammates who run at me kamikaze style every time they see me anyway = death. HR isn't the only one who has an easy time killing me, GWF who know how to make me waste my dodges get IBS strikes that take almost half my health. Takedown takes another quarter. That doesn't give me much room or time to avoid death. TR I have to slot steal time and change my artifact to lantern or I'm probably going to face a slow death of perma stealth ( so if anyone else attacks before I change back, I'm dead), GF I would like to change CoI to mastery and slot icy terrain and chill strike. 1v1 GF eat me alive(I never get the chance to I die so fast). They always have unless I get lucky. The rotation I keep to kill other wizards and generally everything that comes charging is not ideal for dealing with everything individually.
Just remember, the queue generally places a CW on both sides. We both die easy and killing one another is our top priority unless there is a particularly nasty HR. We don't generally deal with backcapping, our place is on the front lines behind one of our team mates. We're like snakes, just as afraid of you as you are of it, in fact there isn't a class I'm not afraid of if they're played right.
Idk sir , your results seem to vary a lot with the norm, can you enlighten us to your build and gear level ?
the only other way to make the class completely viable would be a total re-work
Since we KNOW a total re-work is coming, since thats how they handled GFs/GWFs/HRs/CWs to a major extent.... I think the TR could have a few things done to it, to enable them to shine.
A few things that I HATE about TR - the entire "perma" idea. This works for PVE but in PVP with how domination is played, it will never work. Either domination needs to remove incentive for "stalemate" contesting, OR TR needs to be beefed up. If you make TR too weak - they are perma node contesters, if they make TR too strong, its a GOD class because of the "perma" mechanic.
Id like a few major change to stealth however that I think would benefit the class:
1) Stealth bar drains while in stealth. When removed from stealth, you RETAIN any "stealth" meter you had left and can re-activate stealth at any time to go BACK into stealth. Id also like to see hitting "tab" again would pop you out of stealth with your remaining bar.
-Much like GF's "block" if he leaves early, the block meter doesnt deplete (dont get started on the contrast here - for illustration only) but it stays the same and even recharges. TR would still only charge outside combat, but the remaining "stealth" could still be used. So its not all or nothing.
2) Stealth meter does not "recharge" outside combat but its COMPLETELY filled once outside combat. This means a TR CAN "perma" as long as they want as long as they are not in combat. Only once hit or attacking someone will the meter start to drain. This is another reason for the increased "range" that a TR can be found. To prevent TRs doing this indefinitely on a node.
3) Stealth is on a PURE time basis and is not hindered based on damage. So dealing damage to a stleath TR would NOT drain stealth faster.
Allowing stealth to be used much more skillfully and longer allows the TR to truly hide in the shadows AND dip in and out of stealth at will. Drop in, lashing blade and it pops you out, however you can recast stealth with your remaining bar, so the TR would only be outside stealth for the animation of the attack and can pop back in for the remainder of stealth bar.
With these changes, I personally think encounters that refill stealth need to be nerfed,reduced or removed. I would possibly suggest things like BaS and Shadow Strike to not "insta" fill the stealth bar but give a regen or recharge to the stealth meter. So it does allow for a smaller limited "recharge".
The capstone for Saboteur can be "Attacks replenish steath" meaning a Saboteur TR can remain in stealth for PVE almost indefinitely for each at will or encounter hit, refills a little bit of stealth. Where as that philosophy would be less beneficial in PVP since the range has been increased by which a player can find a TR stealthed.
-For this range I would suggest about HALF a node distance. So a player standing in the middle of a node should have a HIGH chance to see the TR.
Then next you have the Executioner and Scoundrel Trees.... These entire trees needs a re-work IMO to make the TR the BEST single target DPS class. One thing to consider is the ability to pop in and out of stealth at will with the new system, makes things LIKE the Scoundrel capstone MUCH more beneficial. An idea there would just be to give a flat buff that DOESNT stack, for 6 seconds after leaving stealth, gain a 25% damage boost.
Or other things like "Cunning Ambusher" - 6% more damage after leaving stealth. This is now worth alot more.
One idea I had was to give a feat that increased the TRs DEFLECT based upon the amount of stealth meter missing. So a TR who drained their entire meter, could have up to say 25% more deflect. With their deflect severity at 75%, if a TR can get a large amount of deflect this will enable them to be "tanky" enough outside stealth.
All of this, however would be a good way to separate the "permas" in PVE and the Combat TRs and their ability to PVP with true pros/cons and skill involved.
Comments
Honestly the animation isnt good enough.
Here is why I say that....
I am going to post 6 SS and you guess which ones are me "blocking"
IMAGE 1
IMAGE 2
IMAGE 3
Continued on next page....
IMAGE 5
IMAGE 6
ONLY Image 5 was me blocking..... We can argue any which way about it, but the fact of the matter is when your fighting 5 people, trying to hit someone across a map, and your expected to count how long a GF has been blocking (which can vary between 5-25 seconds BTW)
AND be at the RIGHT angle to be able to tell if the GF is just "in combat" and looks like one of the other 5 pictures above, OR is actually holding block....
Its pretty lame.
If GFs are asking for (and as they should) total CC frontal immunity - even from chill stacks too. Then its needs to be CRYSTAL clear if he is blocking or not.
Considering that GF isn't the only issue in mod 4 pvp, lets talk about them DC's and TR's
Tbh I think enabling righteousness on the new DC to work for itself would fix most of their issues however most of the real issues stem from their terrible feat Tree
As for TR, the way it is now either needs a 20-30% DPS increase and the ability to use black ice armor without giving up stealth bonus from true pvp sets
or
A complete class re-work
::shudder::
Actually, if we got a complete class re-work on par with what happened recently with other classes, I would probably enjoy it for the month or so that it takes them to see the issues and fix them. :P
Yea I'm a bit scared to even mention rework.... We might not even have stealth when they're finished
Knowing the devs, they will "Fix" perma stealth and buff worthless powers and nerf some others.
Further Stealth nerfs probably not gonna happen. The devs know that damage needs to get ticked back up slightly for PVE. Have faith/patience.
Oh, I don't know. CWs just needed some minor tweaking to increase their survival, but instead they got turned into even greater offensive powerhouses with great defense and the ability to for all intents and purposes lock something down for as long as it takes for it to die.
GFs were badly in need of some damage boosts and a block that worked. They got increased damage, a near limitless block. and an enchantment that couldn't have been tailored any better for them that meant death to anyone that had the temerity to try and attack them or anyone on their team.
Even the "nerf" to GWFs wasn't as bad as it could have been.
If this is their approach to TRs and DCs, then I'm all for it.
My class got a deserved Fix so i am happy.
I'm not totally sure. Page 1 looks like a freaking rainbow compared to mod3.
Started playing my HR again and it's good. CW is obviously good. TR, GWF and GF are good too.
Only ones out of the loop are DCs and SWs, but DCs can still have a big impact on a game.
As it stands the balance for the top 3 classes exists as whoever gets the first hit off wins, which shouldn't be the case
The beautiful part of pre healing depression PvP is that nothing was a 1 lucky rotation wins , you literally had to outplay your opponent from step one till the finally HP left his bar, otherwise he'd have the opportunity to heal back up and turn the tides
Now PvP is like casting lots , circumstances are not in your favor and people get 1 glance on you and your in an unrecoverable state ( or based on the damage flying around atm , just dead....and God forbid your a tr or dc, because you have to Triple out work and outplay the other class to -maybe- drag down their HP to win, or not get caught out of your rotation -Just once- to stay alive.) this game isn't about calculated risk management anymore , it's not about out rotating the other PvP team and places your classes in the optimal nodes to win in what was known as out rotating your enemy. Now it's a race of whoever can clear their home node first and sweep the rest of the points to claim victory (which often means trs are forced to play sacrificial lamb for their team) and the dc is sent to hopefully get their in time to die instead and give the tr another precious few seconds of life.
I ask for the changes I do so - not because I want to butcher anything that is in the limelight (I asked for the class's in question to be fixed on the forums last module)but so that the game can be a place where intelligence is a factor of gameplay instead of a button-mash-my-class-is-more-OP-then-yours-fest
That's a bad idea because then you'd have nothing to stack to improve your character that wasn't subject to DR.
Plus most of what's killing people so quick isn't even affected by power.
As stated above, it has nothing to do with power. All of the killing of people in 1 rotation of encounters comes from abilities/class features/ and feats.
Example:
Ray of frost hits 2-3K, which is innocent enough untill you add this.
5-10K Storm Spell proc
4-9K Assailing Force Proc
Now your looking at an at will that hits 11-22K potentially.
And another Example would be my Low Gear GF
Power: 2100
Crit: 600
Armor Pen: 1100
These are the only offensive stats my GF has, However with the Conqueror Tree, Bullcharge, Knights Challenge and Anvil of Doom
My Guardian Fighter can begin a Rotation with a 20K bullcharge, and then follow up with a Kill shot anvil of doom (Because he's below the HP level to turn on Anvils God Mode)
As you can see the damage dosent come from stats, the only thing stats are contributing too in terms of OP would be the easy availability of defensive stats and the lack of need to stack offensive ones because the gains are very lopsided
Right now any class that uses BI armor can achieve 50K HP (Which with the type of damage flying around, those Levels are pretty Necessary) while also having Enough Regen to put wolverine to shame coupled with "Incoming Healing Bonus", enough of which to almost completely counter-act Healing Depression, your looking at enough defensive stat points to SUPPOSEDLY last a while right? wrong.
The DPS output of a CW and HR Separately are capable of flooring that much HP in a matter of seconds (Regardless of Gear) because all of their DPS stems from their feat tree's as flat values. Also, as I demonstrated with my GF, he's able to realistically 1 rotation any average player (which I actually do on a daily basis).
Now this is where it becomes an issue. Average players are being Roflstomped by other average players who decided to take 10 minutes to learn how to build their class properly, and GREAT players are being ganked by what I like to call "Oops Damage" primarily caused by button mashing that results in huge unavoidable damage chunks that in a module prior to this one never have affected you.
Now when you scale everything up with Gear, then throw in the experience of a top end PvPer, this "oops Damage" becomes a guided force that literally decimates everything in its path
i.e Anything a Control wizard has any time to touch gets liquefied.
It's just common sense to logically call that "too much damage". Does tenacity need to get buffed more then? If you don't want to mess with power then you can have tenacity to mitigate it and achieve the same end. Tenacity is already PVP only, so a buff to tenacity effects at the top end wouldnt hurt PVE at all.
This being true theres a DPS gap Between A Warlock vs a CW per say
a tenacity buff would hurt the SW a hell of a lot more then the CW so their would need to be some counter buffing as well
to say the least its not mostly the dps thats the issue, but the gap between classes in DPS, and how large it is
and bringing the SW (as an example) or the TR up to the same level as a CW would not help anything because then we will just see more instant killing and less skill required.
Not worst-case scenario,normal pvp.1 a lot of cw are going for the high ground and can't be hit by most melee.2 if your taking nod leaving it to kill one person will cost you.normal you stay on nod to take it and kill whos on it to take it.O why don't the hr or cw kill them?because there on the other side atking.(biggest prob. with range people,they will not fight on nod).3 tanks should be able to tank 2 people for some time not die in 2-3 sec (at less 20-30 sec,to buy time for team..thats there job)
The two move work some what alike or should.CC immune, resis dmg, and limited duration.there both for tanking and you can wait out block just like unstoppable.But with block Icy Rays and Ray of Frost get through it but not unstoppable.CW spells have long enough casting times? about the same time so who pops 1st wins.Gwf have control over Unstoppable.they pop it when it's need and waits for it to build back up just like block.
Most part yes,but let let the cw have CC but take away the gf block?How is that even?gf low dmg cw high dmg not even add the CC and its over kill.A good cw knows how to get past block with out needing a cheap easy way.Block only block the way gf is facing,so a good cw just teleports behind and lands a CC.
Use Lunging Strike and Threatening Rush?Most of the time your CC by Ray of Frost before you can get it off now.Ray of Frost 80' Range,Lunging Strike 30'lunge,Icy Rays 80' Range ,Threatening Rush 30'Rush.But still if your luck and land it cw just teleports and contuse Ray of Frost.
umm shield up front , shield out to the side with sword out to side.can't get much easier then that lmao...well maybe if there was a big sign saying I'm not blocking.
You see? This is nuts because all I've heard from the SWs is how catastrophically high their DPS vs single target is. I would imagine that at the Twilight Zone this would be even more pronounced. Oh well.
TRs will be doing some more damage soon. I don't know if they are going to selectively buff powers, rework some feats, or a combination of the two, but TRs are going to make it out of the darkness (so to speak). Everyone knows they are in a weird place in PVE right now. This will end up giving them more PVP power as a result. I'm interested to see what they decide to do with the TR, as that was my first class back in beta.
Here's the issue with TR at the moment.
For the longest time Cryptic has gone about, patch after patch, nerfing the possible DPS output of TR's... So any DPS increase by them will be a redundant measure of balance and they'd also encounter these issues
A) Increase Damage to much, and you have a new god class that will stay in stealth all the time (Which is only an issue for new players) and plague the current meta with very effective and guerilla-like tactics that will ultimately let it become the ultimate node holder again. However this again will lead to some unbalance, and like I mentioned before... out of any class, it seems like new players have a hard time adjust to the Rogues Stealth mechanic that seems to only exist in this game. Although it's easy to track a stealth rogue, and I have no sympathy for people who lack the capability to do so, I understand this represents a majority of people in our community and will most likely cause more drama then what its worth
1) At the moment, the rogue class currently has the least amount of obtainable defensive stats (without forsaking the stealth bonus, which beyond some radical beliefs, is a MUST for this modules meta) so if you only increase its damage by a moderate amount, you still have the issue where the TR can't keep up damage wise with any of its competition. If the above is true, you still have other classes much more suited to not being a sacrificial lamb and being used elsewhere in end meta PvP. As a class that can't fend for itself damage wise, there's no other option then to run. All the best guilds in the game currently forbid their TR's to even try to attack the assailants attempting to kill them because like I mentioned in an earlier post, doing so means a quicker death
C) so with the above two scenarios being an un-logical means of approaching the fix, the only way to keep TR alive as it is now and have it brought up to speed in this meta would be to do the following
1) Improve the stealth meter feat and allow it to stack for the stealth that the T2 PvP set normally gives. Then remove that stealth bonus from the T2 set and add something equally as beneficial, say more run speed instead.
2) Now that the TR is not locked into one gear set or die, TR's will be able to run Black Ice Sets and make up for the defensive stats that other classes are entitled too that TR Is not
3) 20-25% DPS increase with the resurgence of Impact Shot
Now I understand the implications of what I said, however I believe this is the only way to keep TR alive "AS IT IS" in the current meta with the perm stealth technique
the only other way to make the class completely viable would be a total re-work
Basically, when a wizard steps onto 2 as the only CW, which in random queue is quite frequent, he is not a killing force of nature. Most times I'm lucky to get a few shots off before I have to tuck tail, because I'm being attacked by 2 people or more. A GF can stay on cap a while cause he has a shield, TR has perma, and HR has mobility, healing, and chance to stack deflection. What does a CW have? The ability to hide behind his team mates. A CW not doing this risks certain dealth unless they are in the Twilight Zone of legendary artifacts and r10s stacked max hp built CWs.
What I'm trying to say is, HR is still better end game. I can never catch a HR with force choke unless he is caught unaware. They shoot with with their confusing ray and melee me down to low health very quickly. This combined with one of their teammates who run at me kamikaze style every time they see me anyway = death. HR isn't the only one who has an easy time killing me, GWF who know how to make me waste my dodges get IBS strikes that take almost half my health. Takedown takes another quarter. That doesn't give me much room or time to avoid death. TR I have to slot steal time and change my artifact to lantern or I'm probably going to face a slow death of perma stealth ( so if anyone else attacks before I change back, I'm dead), GF I would like to change CoI to mastery and slot icy terrain and chill strike. 1v1 GF eat me alive(I never get the chance to I die so fast). They always have unless I get lucky. The rotation I keep to kill other wizards and generally everything that comes charging is not ideal for dealing with everything individually.
Just remember, the queue generally places a CW on both sides. We both die easy and killing one another is our top priority unless there is a particularly nasty HR. We don't generally deal with backcapping, our place is on the front lines behind one of our team mates. We're like snakes, just as afraid of you as you are of it, in fact there isn't a class I'm not afraid of if they're played right.
Match #1: Got roflstomped. I rush to the enemy node to do my TR thang, and realize that my other four teammates went to our home base. Ugh. But I've seen that recovered before so I kill my target and sit waiting for the cap. The rest of my team gets crushed and 2 stop playing. Yes, after one death. By the time the rest of the enemy team rushes back and kills me, three of my teammates are sitting at the fire and one has "disconnected".
Match #2: Roflstomped the other team 1,000 to 0.
Match #3: SW on the opposing team. He dies, gets executed, soul puppet revives him, dies again, soul puppet revives and another spawns, etc. You get the picture. We go from a 200 point lead to losing the match simply because there are now 10 soul puppets in the match and he has become essentially invincible.
Match #4: Get the same SW on my team this time. Same thing, but working in our favor. However, one of our players can't handle the lag and leaves and the other two are DCs. It was a "close" match, but we lost. The SW had 40 kills.
Match #5: Roflstomped the other team 1,000 to 149.
Match #6: Roflstomped the other team 1,000 to 54.
If this was an aberration, I could handle it. But it's not. This is the state of PuGing Domination these days. Not a single one of those matches was fun in any sense of the term.
Bc. of the mod 4 grind and me trying to unlock the artefact for my CW, I did no PvP with my GWF for the last two weeks. Now my 19,x PvP GWF has to crush his way to a decent place in ELO. I did two PvP matches and my team and the enemy seems to be at ~9k GS, most have no enchants, I got BI weapons and gear etc. no real challange there.
Idk sir , your results seem to vary a lot with the norm, can you enlighten us to your build and gear level ?
Since we KNOW a total re-work is coming, since thats how they handled GFs/GWFs/HRs/CWs to a major extent.... I think the TR could have a few things done to it, to enable them to shine.
A few things that I HATE about TR - the entire "perma" idea. This works for PVE but in PVP with how domination is played, it will never work. Either domination needs to remove incentive for "stalemate" contesting, OR TR needs to be beefed up. If you make TR too weak - they are perma node contesters, if they make TR too strong, its a GOD class because of the "perma" mechanic.
Id like a few major change to stealth however that I think would benefit the class:
1) Stealth bar drains while in stealth. When removed from stealth, you RETAIN any "stealth" meter you had left and can re-activate stealth at any time to go BACK into stealth. Id also like to see hitting "tab" again would pop you out of stealth with your remaining bar.
-Much like GF's "block" if he leaves early, the block meter doesnt deplete (dont get started on the contrast here - for illustration only) but it stays the same and even recharges. TR would still only charge outside combat, but the remaining "stealth" could still be used. So its not all or nothing.
2) Stealth meter does not "recharge" outside combat but its COMPLETELY filled once outside combat. This means a TR CAN "perma" as long as they want as long as they are not in combat. Only once hit or attacking someone will the meter start to drain. This is another reason for the increased "range" that a TR can be found. To prevent TRs doing this indefinitely on a node.
3) Stealth is on a PURE time basis and is not hindered based on damage. So dealing damage to a stleath TR would NOT drain stealth faster.
Allowing stealth to be used much more skillfully and longer allows the TR to truly hide in the shadows AND dip in and out of stealth at will. Drop in, lashing blade and it pops you out, however you can recast stealth with your remaining bar, so the TR would only be outside stealth for the animation of the attack and can pop back in for the remainder of stealth bar.
With these changes, I personally think encounters that refill stealth need to be nerfed,reduced or removed. I would possibly suggest things like BaS and Shadow Strike to not "insta" fill the stealth bar but give a regen or recharge to the stealth meter. So it does allow for a smaller limited "recharge".
The capstone for Saboteur can be "Attacks replenish steath" meaning a Saboteur TR can remain in stealth for PVE almost indefinitely for each at will or encounter hit, refills a little bit of stealth. Where as that philosophy would be less beneficial in PVP since the range has been increased by which a player can find a TR stealthed.
-For this range I would suggest about HALF a node distance. So a player standing in the middle of a node should have a HIGH chance to see the TR.
Then next you have the Executioner and Scoundrel Trees.... These entire trees needs a re-work IMO to make the TR the BEST single target DPS class. One thing to consider is the ability to pop in and out of stealth at will with the new system, makes things LIKE the Scoundrel capstone MUCH more beneficial. An idea there would just be to give a flat buff that DOESNT stack, for 6 seconds after leaving stealth, gain a 25% damage boost.
Or other things like "Cunning Ambusher" - 6% more damage after leaving stealth. This is now worth alot more.
One idea I had was to give a feat that increased the TRs DEFLECT based upon the amount of stealth meter missing. So a TR who drained their entire meter, could have up to say 25% more deflect. With their deflect severity at 75%, if a TR can get a large amount of deflect this will enable them to be "tanky" enough outside stealth.
All of this, however would be a good way to separate the "permas" in PVE and the Combat TRs and their ability to PVP with true pros/cons and skill involved.